UK pensions

[nong38]

3 hours ago, Flustered said:

The frozen pension argument has been going on for donkeys years.

 

I remember articles on it back in the 70s when there was an emigration drive to Australia. Parents joining their children were warned their pensions were frozen.

 

Anyone thinking of emigrating should have the common sense to check out basics like this first.

 

When you think of it logically, it's money leaving the UK and being spent in some one else's economy.

Its also money that has already been taxed once in one country and I think its wrong to be taxed again in another.

 

Of course you should do your research before making a move abroad but the frozen pension issue never ever came up, it was never mentioned to me and I found it out purely by accident in a pub at Heathrow! I looked into costs out here in Thailand compared to the UK, what would my requirements be for life and are they available, how would I support the lifestyle.

I thought I had covered all the bases but all the time I find things being different to what I thought they would or should be and as a consequence have had to adjust as and where required, things are not always what they seem, especially here where there is a different culture to deal with as well, jut when you think you have figured you are wrong.

 

Clearly you have it all figured out so I will let you find things out for yourself.

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, nong38 said:

Clearly you have it all figured out so I will let you find things out for yourself.

I have spent my entire life living and working in various countries and if I have learned one thing, it is to research everything as far in advance as you can. I am as aware as anyone can be of the tax laws in Thailand at present (they can of course change), the tax laws in the UK (they also can change), the rules regarding money transfer between countries, the rules regarding visas and reporting (also subject to change) and as such make sure that our finances are in a good enough shape to take alternate action should the need arise. The last thing I am relying on is my State pension.

 

I think that part of the problem here is that not that people do not know about the frozen pension, they just do not understand what inflation can do to the income. In the days of active emigration to Australia, emigrants had to attend interviews at Australia House and were given if anything, too much information so as to let them know the full story. Inflation will always kill any static income stream and should be allowed for as far as is possible.

 

Also, many people on a basic State pension live in Thailand because they can lead a better life. But again, they do not take into account inflation. They are aware of the frozen pension, they just did not realise how quickly it depreciates. I have ex military friends living in Thailand who are beginning to feel the pinch. They do not have enough income to return to the UK and are now looking at Cambodia.

 

<removed>

 

 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Flustered said:

The frozen pension argument has been going on for donkeys years.

 

I remember articles on it back in the 70s when there was an emigration drive to Australia. Parents joining their children were warned their pensions were frozen.

 

Anyone thinking of emigrating should have the common sense to check out basics like this first.

 

When you think of it logically, it's money leaving the UK and being spent in some one else's economy.

 

So what? It is money that I earned in the course of my 50 year working life. IT is mine by the right of my pension. It is NOT a benefit because I earned it and a lot of it was earned overseas working for a UK company. Not only did I pay tax on that income when I was earning it from the age of 15 1/2, but due to some forward planning I also EARNED 2 other pensions. The net result of my prudence is that the age of 72 and living in Thailand I am STILL paying income tax and will do until the day that I die.

 

I chose to live in Thailand and moved here before I retired knowing that my state pension would be frozen. The UK government, (at least not so far) cannot tell me where to live, in which country, who to marry or whatever.

 

It is up to me to choose how and where to live my life and nobody else.

 

I could have chosen, like many people in the UK do, not to work and live of government benefits and yes the money would have been spent in the UK at a far greater cost to the taxpayers who would have to support me.

[Flustered]

Good luck billd766, with that attitude I am sure you are very happy especially in Thailand.

 

Brick wall, head and banging come to mind.

[billd766]

Just now, Flustered said:

Good luck billd766, with that attitude I am sure you are very happy especially in Thailand.

 

Brick wall, head and banging come to mind.

 

No headbanging on the wall on my part I can assure you, and yes, I am very happy in Thailand thank you very much.

[CharlieH]

Off topic posts and responses removed.

Thai script is also not acceptable in this forum. Thai language is restricted to the Thai Language forum as per forum rules.

[NoshowJones]

On 2/27/2017 at 10:55 PM, Flustered said:

It is clearly stated on the DWP website and when you apply for your pension.

 

If people are too lazy to read it they can only blame themselves.

 

If you are retiring overseas, you obviously check your pension figures and when you do, you are told.

 

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/rates-of-state-pension

What rubbish, that is no excuse for the UK government to steal from their OAPs. I moved to Thailand long before I am due to collect my UK state pension, so that was the last thing on my mind, and I still have a little to go yet. It is common knowledge that you can get your state pension in any country, but not common knowledge that the government will steal your annual pension increases from you, no members of my family or anyone else knew about it until I told them.

Don't go blaming UK OAPs for getting angry when their government steals money from them that they have contributed to all their working life. Just because they told you that they are going to steal from you what you are entitled to.

[nontabury]

16 hours ago, Flustered said:

The frozen pension argument has been going on for donkeys years.

 

I remember articles on it back in the 70s when there was an emigration drive to Australia. Parents joining their children were warned their pensions were frozen.

 

Anyone thinking of emigrating should have the common sense to check out basics like this first.

 

When you think of it logically, it's money leaving the UK and being spent in some one else's economy.

Do you mean logically,as in for example. Twin brothers,retire on the same day, one goes to live in the USA, 50 meters from the Canadian border. His Twin brothers retires on the other side of the border in Canada,50 meters from the USA. So they are now living 100yds apart, yet for some  "logical reason" only the twin brother residing in the USA receives a yearly increase in his state pension.

  Do you think all those state pensioners, living in Spain, actually spend their pensions in the British economy. Maybe these same pensioners are patriotic,and realise that they are in fact saving the British taxpayers vast amounts each year, by not making claims on the NHS, winter fuel allowance etc.

If the government looked at this from an business angle, perhaps they would realise that it makes economic sense to actually encourage their pensioners to retire overseas. As it is,this frozen pension policy is discouraging many to make the move.

Personnally I was unaware of this quirk in the state pension,until after I received my pension. As it's Not so easy to discover,especially when successive governments keep quite about this unfair treatment.

[NoshowJones]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

Do you mean logically,as in for example. Twin brothers,retire on the same day, one goes to live in the USA, 50 meters from the Canadian border. His Twin brothers retires on the other side of the border in Canada,50 meters from the USA. So they are now living 100yds apart, yet for some  "logical reason" only the twin brother residing in the USA receives a yearly increase in his state pension.

  Do you think all those state pensioners, living in Spain, actually spend their pensions in the British economy. Maybe these same pensioners are patriotic,and realise that they are in fact saving the British taxpayers vast amounts each year, by not making claims on the NHS, winter fuel allowance etc.

If the government looked at this from an business angle, perhaps they would realise that it makes economic sense to actually encourage their pensioners to retire overseas. As it is,this frozen pension policy is discouraging many to make the move.

Personnally I was unaware of this quirk in the state pension,until after I received my pension. As it's Not so easy to discover,especially when successive governments keep quite about this unfair treatment.

Excellent post Nontabury.

[NoshowJones]

On 2/28/2017 at 6:35 PM, Flustered said:

Can I back that up?....Usual stupid question from someone who knows full well there was no internet or digital media in those days so finding anything is needle in a haystack and I never play the "can you back that up" game.

 

Anyone and I repeat anyone even having a remote thought about retiring to a foreign country should check with the various government department sites to ensure they know their entitlements. Not to do so and you only have yourselves to blame. I know that my State pension will be frozen the second I declare myself "non resident" and have budgeted accordingly.

 

Your last point show you have no knowledge of economics or how foreign exchange works with regards to countries budgets.

 

Wonder why I even bothered replying. Courtesy I suppose.

I think it best if you don't reply. I try to respect every posters opinion, but you write the most nonsense I have seen yet on this forum.

[evadgib]

On 2/10/2017 at 10:41 AM, evadgib said:

War Pension increase from April:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/war-pension-scheme-payments-increases-from-april-2017 

Not yet applied?

https://www.gov.uk/claim-for-injury-received-while-serving

Updated today:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/war-pension-scheme-payments-increases-from-april-2017

Edited March 2, 2017 by evadgib

[NoshowJones]

On 2/28/2017 at 8:32 PM, Flustered said:

I fail to see why you are trying to turn this into an argument over semantics.

 

People should take responsibility and check up on important matters like pensions and not cry about it afterwards . The term "ignorance is no excuse" is as old as the bible (literally).

[Scott]

One post reported and removed.  

 

Continued bickering will see members on a posting holiday.  

[Guest jonzboy]

On 2/28/2017 at 10:07 AM, evadgib said:

I remember articles on it back in the 70s when there was an emigration drive to Australia. Parents joining their children were warned their pensions were frozen.

 

Ok i'll bite...

Can you back that up?

 

Just thought I'd add my experience on this subject.  I left UK to work abroad in the late 1970s without a care or thought about the future.  But then I got married and, having been tipped off to the fact that I could pay voluntary NI contributions whilst living overseas, I contacted DHSS to apply.  I still have the 1982 printed leaflet on "Social Security Abroad" which clearly states that benefits (their word not mine) will not be increased unless you are ordinarily resident in UK or in one of a number of listed countries (much shorter than the current list).

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, jonzboy said:

Just thought I'd add my experience on this subject.  I left UK to work abroad in the late 1970s without a care or thought about the future.  But then I got married and, having been tipped off to the fact that I could pay voluntary NI contributions whilst living overseas, I contacted DHSS to apply.  I still have the 1982 printed leaflet on "Social Security Abroad" which clearly states that benefits (their word not mine) will not be increased unless you are ordinarily resident in UK or in one of a number of listed countries (much shorter than the current list).

Well you're a lucky one. Your experiance does not tally with mine. A couple of years   

After coming to live in Thailand, I received a letter, in reply to my enquirer (regarding my future state pension)from the DHSS informing me, that I could pay a further two years NI in order to claim the maximum state pension. No mention of a frozen pension,and no " social security abroad" leaflet included. Though to be honest with you,if I had, I  would not have associated my state pension with a benefit, not with having paid INTO it for 40+ years.

[sandyf]

On 3/5/2017 at 10:03 PM, nontabury said:

Well you're a lucky one. Your experiance does not tally with mine. A couple of years   

After coming to live in Thailand, I received a letter, in reply to my enquirer (regarding my future state pension)from the DHSS informing me, that I could pay a further two years NI in order to claim the maximum state pension. No mention of a frozen pension,and no " social security abroad" leaflet included. Though to be honest with you,if I had, I  would not have associated my state pension with a benefit, not with having paid INTO it for 40+ years.

Your last statement is a common misconception, we have not paid into anything. The money taken from your income was immediately paid out to state pensioners at the time. There is no 'pot' to fund pensions so in reality there is nothing to be entitled to. The government created a scheme whereby if we paid the pensioners at the time we would get a share of the revenue from a future working population. Unfortunately due to a lack of foresight that scheme has changed direction a few times over the years, my state pension has 5 components to it. At the end of the day we were all conned by omission back in the early days.

State pensions are funded by national insurance contributions but with a reducing workforce for many years now there has been insufficient NI to service state pensions. The shortfall is taken each year from income tax and in the tax year 2015/16 around 12.8 percent of income tax was used to fund state pensions. Living in Thailand and paying UK income tax I am in effect partially funding my own frozen state pension, nothing short of legalised fraud.

[Jip99]

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Your last statement is a common misconception, we have not paid into anything. The money taken from your income was immediately paid out to state pensioners at the time. There is no 'pot' to fund pensions so in reality there is nothing to be entitled to. The government created a scheme whereby if we paid the pensioners at the time we would get a share of the revenue from a future working population. Unfortunately due to a lack of foresight that scheme has changed direction a few times over the years, my state pension has 5 components to it. At the end of the day we were all conned by omission back in the early days.

State pensions are funded by national insurance contributions but with a reducing workforce for many years now there has been insufficient NI to service state pensions. The shortfall is taken each year from income tax and in the tax year 2015/16 around 12.8 percent of income tax was used to fund state pensions. Living in Thailand and paying UK income tax I am in effect partially funding my own frozen state pension, nothing short of legalised fraud.

 

 

You are wrong again Sandy - go read the gov.uk websites etc.

 

 

The government told us nothing of the sort about paying pensioners from our contributions - that is your own fantasy.

 

 

The government DID say that if you pat NIC's you will be ENTITLED to receive the state pension. Simple as that - an ENTITLEMENT.

[sandyf]

This is how it was put by the Institute of Fiscal Studies in their 2010 report.

 

" The National Insurance Act 1946 introduced the BSP, with effect from 1948, but right from the start it differed from the proposals of the Beveridge Report. Political considerations made it impossible to implement the fully funded scheme that Beveridge had envisaged because such a scheme made no provision for pensions for those already older individuals who had suffered through the Great Depression and contributed to the war effort. Faced with the significant immediate bill of paying pensions to individuals who had not made contributions, the government opted to introduce a ‘pay-as-you-go’ system rather than a funded one. Individuals paid contributions (known as National Insurance (NI) contributions), but instead of the level of these being related to an individual’s own future pension benefits (as Beveridge had envisaged), they were related to what was needed to fund the benefits of current pensioners. Over time, the link between a person’s contributions and the pension income that person receives has become even weaker, as NI rates are now set simply according to the overall budgetary needs and distributional objectives of the government and are not directly related to either future pension benefits or current pension funding needs."

https://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn105.pdf

 

"Entitlement" = each to his own on interpretation.

If you pay into a pension fund and the fund is liquidated you would be entitled to a share in the proceeds of the investment. If the state pension was to be liquidated, what would you be entitled to?

[rockingrobin]

43 minutes ago, sandyf said:

[rockingrobin]

NIC buy an entitlement to a pension but not a guaranteed amount.

Taking the Single Tier pension, it is possible to have 10yrs NIC credits and receive nothing

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Your last statement is a common misconception, we have not paid into anything. The money taken from your income was immediately paid out to state pensioners at the time. There is no 'pot' to fund pensions so in reality there is nothing to be entitled to. The government created a scheme whereby if we paid the pensioners at the time we would get a share of the revenue from a future working population. Unfortunately due to a lack of foresight that scheme has changed direction a few times over the years, my state pension has 5 components to it. At the end of the day we were all conned by omission back in the early days.

State pensions are funded by national insurance contributions but with a reducing workforce for many years now there has been insufficient NI to service state pensions. The shortfall is taken each year from income tax and in the tax year 2015/16 around 12.8 percent of income tax was used to fund state pensions. Living in Thailand and paying UK income tax I am in effect partially funding my own frozen state pension, nothing short of legalised fraud.

This is nothing more than an overly clever argument often cited by government or its agencies.

The fact that the government have spent my contributions on paying someone else's pension does not make me less entitled, rather it confirms that the NI fund has simply been plundered by the government to suit whatever short term objective it had at the time. 

[nontabury]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Your last statement is a common misconception, we have not paid into anything. The money taken from your income was immediately paid out to state pensioners at the time. There is no 'pot' to fund pensions so in reality there is nothing to be entitled to. The government created a scheme whereby if we paid the pensioners at the time we would get a share of the revenue from a future working population. Unfortunately due to a lack of foresight that scheme has changed direction a few times over the years, my state pension has 5 components to it. At the end of the day we were all conned by omission back in the early days.

State pensions are funded by national insurance contributions but with a reducing workforce for many years now there has been insufficient NI to service state pensions. The shortfall is taken each year from income tax and in the tax year 2015/16 around 12.8 percent of income tax was used to fund state pensions. Living in Thailand and paying UK income tax I am in effect partially funding my own frozen state pension, nothing short of legalised fraud.

There's been no misconception on my part,as I've always known that my past NI contributions went toward paying the pensioners,at that time. Likewise  today's workforce pays for today's pensioners. Unfortunately through tinkering with the state pensions by our beloved politicians, there are now many abnormalities.

While not completely disputing what you state regarding income tax imput. Why is it that the National insurance fund is 20 billion £ in surplus ?

 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by nontabury

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

NIC buy an entitlement to a pension but not a guaranteed amount.

Taking the Single Tier pension, it is possible to have 10yrs NIC credits and receive nothing

 

  Likewise why do I, who have 44yrs contributions,receive a smaller pension,then those who retire today( disregarding frozen),who may have only payed into the system for 30yrs. Soon to be increased to 35yrs,if not already. Do those retiring today have to wait until they are 68. I suspect that the tinkering with the system by politicians has something to do with it.

And why are military pensions,payed out I'm assuming with some contribution from the state tax,also not frozen, likewise for local government and the civil service pensions. Why is it only the state pension is frozen?

Edited March 7, 2017 by nontabury

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, Rajab Al Zarahni said:

This is nothing more than an overly clever argument often cited by government or its agencies.

The fact that the government have spent my contributions on paying someone else's pension does not make me less entitled, rather it confirms that the NI fund has simply been plundered by the government to suit whatever short term objective it had at the time. 

Quite, and the longer it goes on the more likely people are to lose out.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

Why is it that the National insurance fund is 20 billion £ in surplus ?

 

That is a very good question. I have forgotten how long I have been getting income tax breakdowns from the inland revenue, been a few years, I have had Gateway access for over 10 years. In all the time I have been getting the breakdowns there has always been a percentage for state pensions so it does beg the question ,why?

Did the surplus in the National Insurance Fund actually exist or was it creative accounting. The last I heard it was due to run out in 2016 but haven't seen anything recently.

[dabhand]

Even pensioners living in the Falkland Islands have their pensions frozen.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/11/war-hero-fighting-for-his-future-state-pension

And it’s not just the Falklands. Older Brits living in other UK territories such as Montserrat in the Caribbean and the South Atlantic island of St Helena also have to make do with frozen pensions. Bizarrely, though, this policy doesn’t apply to all 14 overseas territories. For example, those living in Bermuda, 5,800 miles north of the Falklands and one of the world’s wealthiest places, enjoy the full “triple-lock” pension increases their counterparts in the UK receive.

[nong38]

1 hour ago, dabhand said:

Even pensioners living in the Falkland Islands have their pensions frozen.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/11/war-hero-fighting-for-his-future-state-pension

And it’s not just the Falklands. Older Brits living in other UK territories such as Montserrat in the Caribbean and the South Atlantic island of St Helena also have to make do with frozen pensions. Bizarrely, though, this policy doesn’t apply to all 14 overseas territories. For example, those living in Bermuda, 5,800 miles north of the Falklands and one of the world’s wealthiest places, enjoy the full “triple-lock” pension increases their counterparts in the UK receive.

Well you would need to get increases to live in Bermuda I guess that must be the reason otherwise ex pats would have to return to the UK and that would a be a disaster for them.

[nong38]

The last labour governments encouraged immigration and one reason was to enlarge the workforce to pay more tax and insurance to pay the pensioners already in the system, a short term answer that will come back to haunt the country at a later date and I hope those around then are reminded of this folly, Blair and Brown just kicked the problem down the road, well the pension deficit anyway, the social problems attached to this policy are and will cause big problems in society. I will leave it at that.

[i claudius]

11 hours ago, nong38 said:

The last labour governments encouraged immigration and one reason was to enlarge the workforce to pay more tax and insurance to pay the pensioners already in the system, a short term answer that will come back to haunt the country at a later date and I hope those around then are reminded of this folly, Blair and Brown just kicked the problem down the road, well the pension deficit anyway, the social problems attached to this policy are and will cause big problems in society. I will leave it at that.

You think Traitors like Blair and Idiots like Brown care? they just live out their lives in their luxuary homes ,far away from the chaos they caused .

but dont worry the "snowflakes" and the right on PC brigade will just blame us "baby boomers" for it .

[rockingrobin]

41 minutes ago, i claudius said:

You think Traitors like Blair and Idiots like Brown care? they just live out their lives in their luxuary homes ,far away from the chaos they caused .

but dont worry the "snowflakes" and the right on PC brigade will just blame us "baby boomers" for it .

 

Nothing preventing anybody setting up a petition to ask the government to hold a referendum on the issue of unfreezing oversees pension payments