French police kill gunman responsible for school shooting

[OzMick]

Yes, though the 20% figure is moot. Many people are "born into" a religion and remain registered as such though they pay no more than lip-service if that. Australia is supposedly a "christian" nation, a supposition not supported by church attendance.

'Standing in a garage no more makes you a car than standing in a church makes you a Christian.' Woody Allen.

No, politicians pander to the views of the vocal minority and perceived majority. The US will be a greater democracy when a (declared) atheist becomes president.

Reply to Folium, misposted.

A rather cute quote from Woody Allen but your hypothesis about the US Presidency is patently absurd.

Considering only 1.5% of the US population are self professed atheists and 2.4% are self professed agnostics, it is unlikely your dream of a declared atheist taking the Presidency is going to be fulfilled.

Although I will admit the current White House resident has done much to make your wishes a reality, he is an admitted Christian...sans the obligatory church attendance that is.

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Your last paragraph only highlights my point. Declaring yourself non-religious would be political suicide, possibly a majority accept a religion given at birth with no observance or thought of its tenets, but it is absurd to think an atheist could be president.

Most countries profess ideals of freedom of religion, how many allow freedom FROM religion?

[Colin Yai]

I think narrow minded bigots are a much bigger threat.

Like those found in the enclaves of some ethnic groups where even the police fear to go?

Yes, probably. But it was really aimed at some of the re-hashed/re-fried/mis-quoted Daily Mail statistics in some of the earlier posts that appear to often in these threads by some people pushing their own little agendas.

With respect again is there any chance of you answering my question in my post #55?,and with respect again could you please clarify your statement " people pushing their own little agenda's", agenda's against what or who?.

[Scott]

Please stick to the topic of the killing of the gunman in France. Religion of US presidents is running a little far afield of the topic.

[geriatrickid]

Please stick to the topic of the killing of the gunman in France. Religion of US presidents is running a little far afield of the topic.

Is it off topic to ponder what might have been if the gunman had been wearing undergarments possessed of special powers?

It seems certainly more interesting than another rearguing of religious motivations for the killing spree.

[Steely Dan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17512436

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has promised to ban militant Muslim preachers from entering the country.

Well it's a small symbolic step, but in the age of the internet pretty meaningless. Unfortunately he fails at the first real hurdle by condemning Marine Le Pen's call to end Muslim immigration because the killer was born and brought up in France. The glaringly obvious conclusion is there are still others coming in radicalizing French citizens and some never even assimilated in the first place but had children who were born in France.

P.S Colin, If you get flak its a sure sign you are above the target.

[Colin Yai]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-17512436

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has promised to ban militant Muslim preachers from entering the country.

Well it's a small symbolic step, but in the age of the internet pretty meaningless. Unfortunately he fails at the first real hurdle by condemning Marine Le Pen's call to end Muslim immigration because the killer was born and brought up in France. The glaringly obvious conclusion is there are still others coming in radicalizing French citizens and some never even assimilated in the first place but had children who were born in France.

P.S Colin, If you get flak its a sure sign you are above the target.

Bombs away !

[folium]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-17512436

French President Nicolas Sarkozy has promised to ban militant Muslim preachers from entering the country.

Well it's a small symbolic step, but in the age of the internet pretty meaningless. Unfortunately he fails at the first real hurdle by condemning Marine Le Pen's call to end Muslim immigration because the killer was born and brought up in France. The glaringly obvious conclusion is there are still others coming in radicalizing French citizens and some never even assimilated in the first place but had children who were born in France.

P.S Colin, If you get flak its a sure sign you are above the target.

What would you suggest would be the best way for France to avoid another Merah type incident?

[folium]

To distill things into bullet points there are the following factors the French government needs to consider.

• Why is it that many Muslims, especially the younger ones actually de-assimilating relative to the previous generation.
  
• If current trends of birth and migration continue what will France look like in 20 years and are indigenous those who regard themselves as culturally French going to be happy to change to reflect a new cultural consensus of values?
  
• What (if anything) can be done to integrate into society those that want to live separately from it or change its laws or values?
  

I think the following link is required background towards understanding why integration is proving a problem, which should be given consideration instead of focusing on manufactured external gripes or social provision issues.

Thanks for the Video Dan ,for me it made a lot of sense especially bearing in mind that IMHO religious or cultural integration is a lost cause , what we witnessed in France and other acts of Islamic terrorism World wide attests to this all too well, As for the cold blooded murder of the 3 French(Muslim) Soldiers ,maybe he thought they had "sold out" to a mainly Christian Country (for now ) so there fore deserved to die.

If integration is a "lost cause" what are the alternatives?

[folium]

A recent gallup poll found 35% of French Muslims thought terrorism was justified if it advanced Islam, that equates to 360,000 people. There sure are a lot of bigots around it would seem.

Have you got the details on this "recent Gallup poll", when was it published, was it just done by Gallup or in association with any other organization?

[Steely Dan]

If integration is a "lost cause" what are the alternatives?

I of course gave you the diametric opposite thesis to the current one of addressing internal grievances and economic disenfranchisement. The truth probably lies somewhere in between. I think honesty is the best policy and enforcement of existing laws and social norms is the start. I think religion should first be kept out of education and secondly any behavior which is contrary to universal human rights should be stamped upon without backing away from the issue if religious scripture is used to justify such behavior. Residency should be contingent on acceptable behavior and I think the Schengen agreement needs to be scrapped so Countries have control of their own borders. It is a difficult issue, but I suspect short term expediency and money in the back pockets of politicians will stop any real policy changes and eventually as a worse case scenario Europe could become Lebanon on a giant scale.

[Steely Dan]

A recent gallup poll found 35% of French Muslims thought terrorism was justified if it advanced Islam, that equates to 360,000 people. There sure are a lot of bigots around it would seem.

Have you got the details on this "recent Gallup poll", when was it published, was it just done by Gallup or in association with any other organization?

The following is the source I found, which incorporates date from Pew and Gallup, it is dated March 2010.

Actually in some ways French Muslims were found to be better integrated than those of other western Countries so maybe there is hope.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Steely Dan

[Colin Yai]

To distill things into bullet points there are the following factors the French government needs to consider.

• Why is it that many Muslims, especially the younger ones actually de-assimilating relative to the previous generation.
  
• If current trends of birth and migration continue what will France look like in 20 years and are indigenous those who regard themselves as culturally French going to be happy to change to reflect a new cultural consensus of values?
  
• What (if anything) can be done to integrate into society those that want to live separately from it or change its laws or values?
  

I think the following link is required background towards understanding why integration is proving a problem, which should be given consideration instead of focusing on manufactured external gripes or social provision issues.

Thanks for the Video Dan ,for me it made a lot of sense especially bearing in mind that IMHO religious or cultural integration is a lost cause , what we witnessed in France and other acts of Islamic terrorism World wide attests to this all too well, As for the cold blooded murder of the 3 French(Muslim) Soldiers ,maybe he thought they had "sold out" to a mainly Christian Country (for now ) so there fore deserved to die.

If integration is a "lost cause" what are the alternatives?

I was not aware that Muslims are aware the word even exists as the Koran forbids it, so in that way its a lost cause ,I'm not trying to affect a cure nor do I pretend to have one, just stating a plain fact.,as its up to the Muslims who are living in someone else,s Country , even British born Muslims burn our flag , pour scorn on our service men and want Sharia law imposed on Brits and regard themselves as Muslims first and Brits second ,you call that an Integration success story?? Edited March 27, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Colin Yai]

Just to Go a little further on "integration" The Muslims cannot even integrate among themselves as the Sunni's and the Shia's have been slaughtering each other like sheep for donkeys years and are still "at it" to this day ,so what chance have they got of integrating with Infidels?

Edited March 27, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Steely Dan]

More fallout from this supposed 'lone wolf' Jihaddist, extremists enter the UK from France in preparation to cause terror attacks during the Olympic games - How fitting for that showcase of human endevour, if they gave medals out for murdering civilians Islamists would sweep the board.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/310286/Olympic-terror-group-hunted

BRITISH security forces were last night hunting a group of Islamic terrorists intent on wreaking havoc during the Olympic Games.

Security sources have told the ­Sunday Express that 15 to 20 ­terror suspects entered Britain from France in the past week.

The warning, issued by the ­Renseignements Généraux, France’s equivalent to MI5, was given to British MI6 agents in ­Toulouse, south-west France, examining the home of extremist gunman Mohamed Merah, 23.

[folium]

Just to Go a little further on "integration" The Muslims cannot even integrate among themselves as the Sunni's and the Shia's have been slaughtering each other like sheep for donkeys years and are still "at it" to this day ,so what chance have they got of integrating with Infidels?

Sadly few groupings within humanity come out looking very pleasant when it comes to mass murder.

Cambodia's Killing Fields sink the Buddhists

Croatia's Ustase scores for the Catholics

Serbians big it up for the Orthodox crew

Hitler, Mao and Stalin score well for the atheists

Hindus racked up quite a score in 1947 with the partition of India

Shintoism had a poor first half of the 20th century with episodes such as the Rape of Nanking

etc, etc

Amongst this premier league of mass murder and genocide your Muslims seem to rank rather lowly. Jihadist exploits and fraternal Shiite/Sunni infighting barely make the grade.

Also if Muslims constitute such an existential threat I'm surprised you chose to live in SE Asia given its Muslim population of 253million . Are the 4million Muslims in Thailand (not much less than found in France) going to take over Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok?

Or perhaps Muslims are not the monolithic threat that Clash of Civilizations likes to portray or islamophobes like the "Florida Security Council" rant about.

No society, no religion, no country is perfect. Look beyond the stereotype and life is rarely that bad.

Personally I would be very glad to see the end of multiculturalism and more of an American style of integration. Millions of people want to move to Europe and the US, so if they want to join the club there's no harm in having a few entrance requirements and rules for the game. Societies have always adapted and evolved and not always for the worse, just look at the British soccer teams and range of restaurants.

One of my funnier moments was sitting in a room with a prominent Lebanese Hezbollah operator as he ranted and raved about the "West" for 40 minutes. The cause of his rage...? Not western support for Israel or any of the usual hot button issues. He had just been turned down for permanent residency in Australia!

As to the demographic canard that Europe is going to plunge into Eurabia with types like Merah in the majority while Hans, JeanPierre, Carlos and Kevin disappear, have a read of this:

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/01/27/will-pew-muslim-birth-rate-study-finally-silence-the-eurabia-claim/

and:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8189434.stm

Edited March 27, 2012 by folium

[Steely Dan]

Sadly few groupings within humanity come out looking very pleasant when it comes to mass murder.

Cambodia's Killing Fields sink the Buddhists

Croatia's Ustase scores for the Catholics

Serbians big it up for the Orthodox crew

Hitler, Mao and Stalin score well for the atheists

Hindus racked up quite a score in 1947 with the partition of India

Shintoism had a poor first half of the 20th century with episodes such as the Rape of Nanking

etc, etc

Amongst this premier league of mass murder and genocide your Muslims seem to rank rather lowly. Jihadist exploits and fraternal Shiite/Sunni infighting barely make the grade.

Also if Muslims constitute such an existential threat I'm surprised you chose to live in SE Asia given its Muslim population of 253million . Are the 4million Muslims in Thailand (not much less than found in France) going to take over Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok?

Or perhaps Muslims are not the monolithic threat that Clash of Civilizations likes to portray or islamophobes like the "Florida Security Council" rant about.

Firstly, I agree with your points on integration being emphasized and enforced through entry requirements as oppose to the total abdication of responsibility over border controls as we have today. If we were left with the festivals and the food who would complain.

As for your list of atrocities by faith, you really need to do some research otherwise you risk painting a totally misleading picture. Sudan, East Timor, Armenia, Hindus in India, and the 400,000 Jews killed in the Balkans are a few contemporary examples of Muslim genocides and if you look at the 18,600+ terrorist attacks since 9/11 you can see who are the prime culprits. I will leave it at that or this will head rapidly off topic.

As for your rebuttal of the clash of civilizations I would observe that Muslims are not a mono-culture, but Islam is a consistent ideology - there is no such thing as moderate Islam as Recep Erdogan himself said, so the fact that even in western Countries Muslims identify themselves primarily by religion not by nationality is significant, especially when the Sharia is their universal law supreme over man made law. Yes the U.S is Christian, Europe largely atheist and none of it a mono-culture, but non Muslims are referred to as kuffar, they are perceived as the 'other'.

Finally demographics; I don't want to get too deeply into another potential diversion from the topic, suffice to say I've recently read 3.8 Muslim children are born per family as oppose to a European average of 1.3. In the UK 250,000 emigrate each year. I will save you the maths, save to say there is plenty of studies that contradict the figures in your links.

[Scott]

.....And meanwhile back to the French police kill gunman....

[folium]

Finally demographics; I don't want to get too deeply into another potential diversion from the topic, suffice to say I've recently read 3.8 Muslim children are born per family as oppose to a European average of 1.3. In the UK 250,000 emigrate each year. I will save you the maths, save to say there is plenty of studies that contradict the figures in your links.

Not sure where you get your figures from (mine are below). Looks more like EU TFR (total fertility rate) of 1.6 and Muslim TFR in Europe currently 2.2 dropping to 2.0 by 2030.

So looks like JeanPierre is safe for a while yet.

Emigration from the UK also has collapsed since 2008 as people can't sell their houses for silly money anymore.

https://www.cia.gov/...ok/geos/ee.html

http://en.wikipedia....Islam_in_Europe

The main source of immigrants to the UK remains E.Europe and there are now more Poles than Irish and Indians put together. But I suppose to some people that's not too bad as the E.Europeans are suitably Christian, white and almost indigenous looking.

Whoops... perhaps if the Merah types bought more Thai whitening creams and traded in Allah for Asda everyone would be happy.

Here another almost back on topic thought...

How many people have died in Europe at the hands of Muslim extremists in the last 30 years?

Edited March 27, 2012 by folium

[folium]

As for your list of atrocities by faith, you really need to do some research otherwise you risk painting a totally misleading picture. Sudan, East Timor, Armenia, Hindus in India, and the 400,000 Jews killed in the Balkans are a few contemporary examples of Muslim genocides and if you look at the 18,600+ terrorist attacks since 9/11 you can see who are the prime culprits. I will leave it at that or this will head rapidly off topic.

So Merah represents just the latest Muslim warrior intent on extermination via genocide of infidels?

Sudan? Darfur was/is muslim on muslim driven by tribe, opposition to central control and differing land use. Sudanese civil war driven by race, ethnicity, resources and central indifference as much as religion. Genocide? Think not.

E.Timor? if that was muslim led genocide it certainly didn't work and the Indonesian military were even tougher on the ultrafundamentalist muslim Acehnese as they were on the predominantly christian E. Timorese.

Armenia, 1/2 million murdered in 1915-16 is your best shot at muslim led genocide, though the slaughter was on a similar scale to Suharto's New Order bloodbath in 1965-66, but in both cases religion was probably only part of the issue with nationalism a major element.

The 400,000 Jews in the Balkans has me baffled. Between the Nazis, the Croatian Ustase, the Catholic Hungarians and the Romanians most Balkan Jews were murdered. Not sure where the muslims come in to this one.

Afraid to say that Merah and his ilk are small fry in terms of mass murderers. Last year the unwanted prize went to Mexico where some 50,000 have now died since 2006 in the "Drug war". and the post WW2 prize goes to the Second Congo Civil war 1998-2003 which killed an estimated 5-8 million people, but no one gets too worked up about that, wonder why? At least there weren't any muslims involved (apart from a brief, disastrous intervention by Chad (which is only 50% muslim).

Edited March 27, 2012 by folium

[Scott]

This is the last warning further off-topic remarks will result in a suspension of posting ability.

You have been warned.

[Steely Dan]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4208904,00.html

12-year-old boy was beaten outside his Jewish school in Paris by youths reciting anti-Semitic slogans, school officials say, amid continued high security and tensions in France.

The school's human resources director, Katia Normal, said Tuesday that the child was hit and punched in the back of his head on Monday afternoon as he left school in the capital's southeast, but did not suffer serious injuries.

You can add to this 4 illegal culture enrichers trying to break down the door of a Jewish school in Brussels and a 74 year old Moroccan Jew killed with a hammer.

P.S And the icing on the cake is Merah's father, who now lives in Algeria wants to sue the French government for not capturing his son alive - It's a shame his family and all his ilk didn't fuc_k off back to Algeria years ago. I wonder if Robert Amsterdam is available?

[bigbamboo]

Sadly few groupings within humanity come out looking very pleasant when it comes to mass murder.

Cambodia's Killing Fields sink the Buddhists

Croatia's Ustase scores for the Catholics

Serbians big it up for the Orthodox crew

Hitler, Mao and Stalin score well for the atheists

Hindus racked up quite a score in 1947 with the partition of India

Shintoism had a poor first half of the 20th century with episodes such as the Rape of Nanking

etc, etc

Amongst this premier league of mass murder and genocide your Muslims seem to rank rather lowly. Jihadist exploits and fraternal Shiite/Sunni infighting barely make the grade.

Also if Muslims constitute such an existential threat I'm surprised you chose to live in SE Asia given its Muslim population of 253million . Are the 4million Muslims in Thailand (not much less than found in France) going to take over Pattaya, Phuket and Bangkok?

Or perhaps Muslims are not the monolithic threat that Clash of Civilizations likes to portray or islamophobes like the "Florida Security Council" rant about.

Firstly, I agree with your points on integration being emphasized and enforced through entry requirements as oppose to the total abdication of responsibility over border controls as we have today. If we were left with the festivals and the food who would complain.

As for your list of atrocities by faith, you really need to do some research otherwise you risk painting a totally misleading picture. Sudan, East Timor, Armenia, Hindus in India, and the 400,000 Jews killed in the Balkans are a few contemporary examples of Muslim genocides and if you look at the 18,600+ terrorist attacks since 9/11 you can see who are the prime culprits. I will leave it at that or this will head rapidly off topic.

As for your rebuttal of the clash of civilizations I would observe that Muslims are not a mono-culture, but Islam is a consistent ideology - there is no such thing as moderate Islam as Recep Erdogan himself said, so the fact that even in western Countries Muslims identify themselves primarily by religion not by nationality is significant, especially when the Sharia is their universal law supreme over man made law. Yes the U.S is Christian, Europe largely atheist and none of it a mono-culture, but non Muslims are referred to as kuffar, they are perceived as the 'other'.

Finally demographics; I don't want to get too deeply into another potential diversion from the topic, suffice to say I've recently read 3.8 Muslim children are born per family as oppose to a European average of 1.3. In the UK 250,000 emigrate each year. I will save you the maths, save to say there is plenty of studies that contradict the figures in your links.

Not sure how the Buddhists can be blamed for Pol Pot but the issue is now and islamic radicalism (not muslims per se) is seen as the biggest religion inspired curse around in view of it's ultimate aim not to integrate but to dominate. Of course it is not the first religion to try to do this.

[Steely Dan]

I won't dignify allusions to racism with a reply, but instead offer this very current article based on the Obin report, which was carried out by a team commissioned by the French education ministry. If you read it there can be no doubt where the real racial and religious hatred is coming from and in that light it is little wonder that many Jewish children in French schools are reluctant to admit their religion. But alas, some would prefer to smear those who highlight such unpleasant truths.

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/03/26/au-revoir-les-enfants/

[Colin Yai]

I won't dignify allusions to racism with a reply, but instead offer this very current article based on the Obin report, which was carried out by a team commissioned by the French education ministry. If you read it there can be no doubt where the real racial and religious hatred is coming from and in that light it is little wonder that many Jewish children in French schools are reluctant to admit their religion. But alas, some would prefer to smear those who highlight such unpleasant truths.

http://frontpagemag....ir-les-enfants/

Thanks for the link Dan and quite enlightening as to why this tragedy happened ,I feel too, that many will not be convinced ,so how much evidence is put forward

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[OzMick]

Finally demographics; I don't want to get too deeply into another potential diversion from the topic, suffice to say I've recently read 3.8 Muslim children are born per family as oppose to a European average of 1.3. In the UK 250,000 emigrate each year. I will save you the maths, save to say there is plenty of studies that contradict the figures in your links.

Not sure where you get your figures from (mine are below). Looks more like EU TFR (total fertility rate) of 1.6 and Muslim TFR in Europe currently 2.2 dropping to 2.0 by 2030.

So looks like JeanPierre is safe for a while yet.

Emigration from the UK also has collapsed since 2008 as people can't sell their houses for silly money anymore.

https://www.cia.gov/...ok/geos/ee.html

http://en.wikipedia....Islam_in_Europe

The main source of immigrants to the UK remains E.Europe and there are now more Poles than Irish and Indians put together. But I suppose to some people that's not too bad as the E.Europeans are suitably Christian, white and almost indigenous looking.

Whoops... perhaps if the Merah types bought more Thai whitening creams and traded in Allah for Asda everyone would be happy.

Here another almost back on topic thought...

How many people have died in Europe at the hands of Muslim extremists in the last 30 years?

Too bloody many!

[Jingthing]

It's not paranoia if they really are trying to kill you.

[bigbamboo]

Finally demographics; I don't want to get too deeply into another potential diversion from the topic, suffice to say I've recently read 3.8 Muslim children are born per family as oppose to a European average of 1.3. In the UK 250,000 emigrate each year. I will save you the maths, save to say there is plenty of studies that contradict the figures in your links.

Not sure where you get your figures from (mine are below). Looks more like EU TFR (total fertility rate) of 1.6 and Muslim TFR in Europe currently 2.2 dropping to 2.0 by 2030.

So looks like JeanPierre is safe for a while yet.

Emigration from the UK also has collapsed since 2008 as people can't sell their houses for silly money anymore.

https://www.cia.gov/...ok/geos/ee.html

http://en.wikipedia....Islam_in_Europe

The main source of immigrants to the UK remains E.Europe and there are now more Poles than Irish and Indians put together. But I suppose to some people that's not too bad as the E.Europeans are suitably Christian, white and almost indigenous looking.

Whoops... perhaps if the Merah types bought more Thai whitening creams and traded in Allah for Asda everyone would be happy.

Here another almost back on topic thought...

How many people have died in Europe at the hands of Muslim extremists in the last 30 years?

Too bloody many!

Quite right. Yet....

Merah and his fellow Islamic jihadists/extremists, have murdered just under 300 people in Europe since 1982. The main incidents were the El Descano bombing, Spain,1985 (18 dead); 1995 Paris Metro bombings (8); 2004 Madrid train bombings (191); 2005 London bombings (52); and Merah's brutal spree 2012 (7).

By comparison during the same 30 year period 1227 people were murdered during the conflict in Northern Ireland, even though it officially ended with the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 (1220 died 1982-1998).

Therefore over 4x as many people were murdered by socialist/catholic/"loyalist"/protestant extremists in 16 years compared to the number of people murdered by muslim extremists across Europe in 30 years. And that's very indigenous murderers not immigrants.

You could do a similar exercise comparing murders by Islamic extremists in N. America (including 11th Sept 2001) over the same 30 years, with the drug war in Mexico since 2006 for another cold dose of reality.

Thus the death of Merah, while a score for the good guys, needs to be put in context. Eurabia is never going to happen (the demographics guarantee that), the security services are going to be kept busy for decades to come, and if you speak Urdu, Farsi or Arabic you will have a well paid job for life.

If Merah and his jihadist-inclined ilk are really all about domination and taking control, please name me a single non-Muslim nation that has been been "captured" by jihadist/extremist muslims since the heyday of the Ottoman Empire in the 18th Century. If the Muslim population of Europe is set to peak at 8% in 2030 they are going to be pretty stretched to create Eurabia.

The big lesson out of the recent tragedy in SW France is that the likes of Merah are mercifully doomed to failure, but if people over-exaggerate the threat, major on the paranoia and resultant Islamophobia, and really create a Clash of Civilizations then that would be truly existential in its potential.

I think the fear many have of Islam is that it will creep up on them and then when they turn around it will be too late. Turkey is not wanted in the EU not because it is almost entirely in Asia and would drain even more resources but because it would mean 80 million muslims free to move accross Europe.

[Steely Dan]

It's not paranoia if they really are trying to kill you.

Neither is it a phobia if the fear is rational. Denial is not an option, which is possibly why 25% of French Jews are considering moving to Israel or the U.S

Every time a Muslim commits murder in the name of Islam, the denial begins again: Western leaders and the mainstream media tie themselves into knots trying to explain what happened without making any reference to its guiding motivation.

Read more: http://www.americant...l#ixzz1qQHc7Oqs

Edited March 28, 2012 by Steely Dan

[bigbamboo]

Paranoia or not the Olympic Games are coming up in London three months and people's fear of a muslim terrorist attack there at some point is real.