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Roof Tiles And Ceilings - Thai Method Ok?


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Posted (edited)

1. Roof.

I was watching the builders today as they put up "Chang" cement roof tiles at our house. These are the common ones about 30 by 40 cm (or so). I expected to see them screwing into the metal runners but turns out they're just wiring them through the holes with a #18 wire. I've been told by several others locally now that this is always how they are done. Anyone with experience on this can comment on whether this is really adequate? I imagine years from now the wires may be rusted and weak.

I really expected to see screws like in the Chang brochures but apparently they only do that when foil insulation is used and they don't want to penetrate it for the wires.

2. Ceiling.

Gypsum ceiling. I'm familiar with in Canada where we screw up into solid wood beams spaced about 18" apart. Here the method used everywhere is apparently a hanging system where metal runners are hung from the trusses above, a second direction of metal runners are connected to the first, and then the gyproc is screwed up into these runners. This seems to me like down the road a few years maybe I'd be looking at sagging, uneven gyproc. Can anyone that has had a ceiling done this way comment on stability over the years? I'm told that they pull a string level and then tension up the hangers until the ceiling lays flat. I guess that could be re-adjusted as time passes. I expect that laying metal beams every 40cm would be very expensive, but is this "hanging runners" method really the best way to support gyproc long term?

Thank you for any feedback experience on these methods. I've had the contractor hold up briefly while I check into this but if I don't follow "the norm" here I'm likely looking at higher costs and I wonder if it's worth it to feel more confident I have a good solid house.

Edited by topher
  • Like 1
Posted

Oh I feel you pain, brings back memories and flashbacks......greee

a second direction of metal runners are tied to the first, and then the gyproc is screwed up into the runners

My second runners were screwed not tied with wire if that is what you meant, not sure.

Posted

Oh I feel you pain, brings back memories and flashbacks......greee

a second direction of metal runners are tied to the first, and then the gyproc is screwed up into the runners

My second runners were screwed not tied with wire if that is what you meant, not sure.

I think they're to be screwed but I didn't word that well above so I edited it. Either they screw them or there's some metal bracket thing. I believe the only tying is the hanger wire at the roof truss, where from what I hear, they likely twist the wire by hand. I think there is some sprint metal clip down near the runners that joins a hook to the main hanger. The way it was explained they can compress the spring metal adjust the hook/hanger position and then let it snap back to clamp at that position.

Having talked to some builders unrelated to mine it seems this hanger system is used everywhere, even in Brunei where one builder built some houses. But as I explained to my wife - just because it's used everywhere doesn't mean it's actually good. Maybe it's good, but I'd feel better if someone who's down the road 5-10 years can say it has worked out solid.

Posted

Easiest solution for you to visit any house that was build more than 5 years ago and look up to the edges of the ceilings.You will see that all will have developed a small crack between ceiling and wall.

But this is the way it is done in Thailand, and you're not gonna change a thing about.

Regarding the tile wires,they will indeed be rusted and weak within a few years, but the only thing you can do is provide them with some galvanised wire which will hopefully last a few years longer.

Posted (edited)

My western Bangkok house is 4 years old and has such tiles (33cm X 42cm, 4Kg per tile) like shown at this Link. The only place any wire hooks were used was for special cut tiles along roof valleys/corners/odd locations. Other than certain areas like the roof top edges/the tip-top of the roof being cemented together for leak proofing more than anything else, basically just the weight of the tiles above and to the sides holds each tile down...the top of each tile also hangs on a the underlying support beam to preven it from sliding downwards. There may be more wire hooks here and there, like those special/odd cut tiles I mentioned, but I can't see any from within my attic since there is insulation sheeting just beneath the tiles blocking my view.

I changed out approx a dozen tiles last year after I cracked them by walking around on the roof when installing my C-Band antenna and doing other work....no hooks/wires securing any of the tiles except one tile which was a special cut/odd shape along a valley. Due to the weight involved and how the interlocking works it takes some lifting effort to remove an old tile and insert another one. It would take some serious, serious hurricane speed wind to get these tiles to go anywhere. I think I can safely say the other homes in my moobaan, especially my soi with 12 houses on it...homes all built at roughly the same time and by the same builder that roofs/tiles were installed that way...I watched all of these houses get built.

We'll had some very, very healthy wind storms here in western Bangkok...winds which take down trees...and no one has lost a tile yet. Heck, it got pretty durn windy this evening as a thunderstorm went through. There are times during rain/wind storms I will look across the soi at other houses to watch the rain swirling about on the roofs...swirling rain on the roof tops driven by high winds...the tiles are not moving...no leaks.

Regarding the gypsum ceilings...installed the same way in my home and moobaan...don't know the quality of the gypsum used as that could definitely make a difference, but I don't have any problem/sagging/etc. I've been in other houses in the moobaan which are probably 10 years old with gypsum ceilings installed the way you described...I didn't see any problems. But as mentioned, I'm pretty sure the builder here in our moobaan uses qaulity material which can definitely make a difference. A couple of things about using metal support, it's cheaper than wood and termites can't eat it....termites can be a BIG problem here in Thailand.

Edited by Pib
Posted (edited)

It's just not a Thai method it's what they are using.

1. Roof.

I gather they are using interlocking concrete tiles with nibs laid to the roof on metal battons.

If they are wiring them OK it allows for movement and you won't be prone to cracking tiles but better to use galvanized, copper or stainless steel wire.

In a lot of situation concrete tiles are loose laid and the only fixing that would be done is 4 tiles in from junctions of ridge, hips and any valley cuts are fixed.

2. Ceiling.

There are many ways that ceilings are installed, yours sounds OK but any wire or hanger connection make sure they are twisted.

Edited by Kwasaki
Posted

Ahhhh, the ceilings....there is no sealing done to where the sheetrock ceiling meets the chapped, masonry wall. It is not taped, as it would not adhere to the masonry wall and you will after time get an ugly crack where those meet. I have it in my house....and will live with it until I have to repaint. Then with scaffolding in place (10, 11 and 13 foot ceilings) I will seal the joint very carefully and then paint again. Some sealants are not paintable. You might get them to do this now, if you are at that point in time. Something that will flex a bit, yet will take paint. Good luck....ett

Posted (edited)

Ahhhh, the ceilings....there is no sealing done to where the sheetrock ceiling meets the chapped, masonry wall. It is not taped, as it would not adhere to the masonry wall and you will after time get an ugly crack where those meet. I have it in my house....and will live with it until I have to repaint. Then with scaffolding in place (10, 11 and 13 foot ceilings) I will seal the joint very carefully and then paint again. Some sealants are not paintable. You might get them to do this now, if you are at that point in time. Something that will flex a bit, yet will take paint. Good luck....ett

" Some sealants are not paintable " Use gloss or lacquer first or use adhesive joint filler that can be got in tubes.

" and will live with it until I have to repaint." Well you always cove it.

post-87530-0-08421500-1333265799_thumb.j smile.png

Edited by Kwasaki
Posted

The C Pak people we spoke to recommend every second tile be screwed to the rail and that is what happened on our roof. Apart from anything else it makes it difficult for Kamoys to enter through the roof. You can see them in the picture with a high speed drill screwing the tiles onto the rails. Regret don't know about Chang tiles though but good quality wire sounds correct.

Suspended ceilings are fine and if sufficient rails will not warp later on. Our ceiling framework looks like this, you can see the suspension straps from the steel.

post-22250-0-91076700-1333268109_thumb.j

post-22250-0-12047400-1333268159_thumb.j

Posted

The C Pak people we spoke to recommend every second tile be screwed to the rail and that is what happened on our roof. Apart from anything else it makes it difficult for Kamoys to enter through the roof. You can see them in the picture with a high speed drill screwing the tiles onto the rails. Regret don't know about Chang tiles though but good quality wire sounds correct.

Suspended ceilings are fine and if sufficient rails will not warp later on. Our ceiling framework looks like this, you can see the suspension straps from the steel.

What they recommend is good practice but it's not the tiles stopping scumbags getting in, it's the metal batons, you can rip tiles out easily.

Your ceiling looks great are you venting your roof at both end gables.

Posted (edited)

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Always interested to hear different aspects of these issues.

I'm going to verify that we have galvanized wire for the tiles and then him go with that. (It looks galvanized to me). I was looking more carefully and see that the wire doesn't have any load and would only come into play if the tile was dislodged and came free, then it would act as a retainer. I think I can live with that if galvanized and not prone to rusting immediately. I don't know how long galvanized takes. It should be dry but no doubt gets hot - I've placed my hand on the back side of a tile in the sun and it's as hot as the front.

The C Pak people we spoke to recommend every second tile be screwed to the rail and that is what happened on our roof. Apart from anything else it makes it difficult for Kamoys to enter through the roof. You can see them in the picture with a high speed drill screwing the tiles onto the rails. Regret don't know about Chang tiles though but good quality wire sounds correct.

Suspended ceilings are fine and if sufficient rails will not warp later on. Our ceiling framework looks like this, you can see the suspension straps from the steel.

Your suspension rails look about the same as shown to me. But here he uses a solid wire (about 1/16" to 1/8" dia. roughly) to hang them, not a wide strap. Your's looks about an inch wide and to me this seems more stable and less prone to stretching over time. Metal under tension with a heavy load for years is bound to stretch some but the thicker straps seem like they wouldn't so much. I may explore that and talk with the builder about that. I have time as we haven't made any deal about exactly what ceiling and at what cost yet. He's been very reasonable with accomodating my farlang ideas so I expect sourcing these straps and going with the regular or maybe heavier rails would work. Do you have a source/brand/name for those hanger straps or the system as a whole?

BTW I double checked my tiles and they are CPAC Monier (Contrass Bullion colour) as well. I was told they're Chang but I guess Chang is just the logo for CPAC. Elephant brand. I chose to go with them over the Diamond brand as some reports said these were a bit better quality, but also because I just liked the colours more.

Edited by topher
Posted
I'm going to verify that we have galvanized wire for the tiles and then him go with that. (It looks galvanized to me).

Zinc or galvanized would be OK but make sure they don't use the ordinary black steel wire that they use for tying the re bar together that stuff rusts out in no time at all.

Your ceiling looks great are you venting your roof at both end gables.

The apex is around six meters high with a mezzanine and vented at both ends on the gables.

Do you have a source/brand/name for those hanger straps or the system as a whole?

The straps if I remember correctly came in rolls, no brand names, They looked like they were made from a strong gray nylon, They use the self drilling, self tapping screws straight through the strap and straight into the steel to secure them.

  • Like 1
Posted

Kwasaki,

I thought about different mouldings to fix the crack, but it would not look good in the rooms (living room, dining room and foyer) that share and transition with the ceiling. By the way, how was the cove moulding attached, glued? Between masonry walls and gypsum ceiling, there's just nothing to nail to. Thanks for the ideas. ett

Posted

all our ceilings ( gyproc) on screwed to c section thin steel frames suspended on these wires from steel roof...I too was interested to see this method, bloody clever I thought. I actually got upset when I thought they were going to use tiles ( as in commercial office ceilings) and had to have it explained to me....

...the guys that installed asked if I wanted the ceiling vaulted ( rhombus ie higher in middle oblong,sloping up from peripheral valance) Agreed and they a beautiful job and it shows no signs of any problems after six years. There are some fine cracks in places at the join to walls but don't put that down to the ceiling so much as the overall house settling or expansion whatever.

Bit scary if you have to enter the attic though...hanging on the roof beams.....

Somewhat lousy photo attached ...lol

post-36430-0-28971500-1333324075_thumb.j

Posted

Kwasaki,

I thought about different mouldings to fix the crack, but it would not look good in the rooms (living room, dining room and foyer) that share and transition with the ceiling. By the way, how was the cove moulding attached, glued? Between masonry walls and gypsum ceiling, there's just nothing to nail to. Thanks for the ideas. ett

the gypsum moulding or cornice as it is called, is usually glued with gyproc mud held in place till dry with some panel pins or props or you standing on a ladder...lol. Available in foam or gypsum in Oz don't know about here. I guess you could use contact cement with foam and pretty it up with mud after?

Posted
1. Roof.

I was watching the builders today as they put up "Chang" cement roof tiles at our house. These are the common ones about 30 by 40 cm (or so). I expected to see them screwing into the metal runners but turns out they're just wiring them through the holes with a #18 wire. I've been told by several others locally now that this is always how they are done. Anyone with experience on this can comment on whether this is really adequate? I imagine years from now the wires may be rusted and weak.

there's no such thing like "screwing on" concrete roof tiles. moreover, fixing them with a metal wire is nothing than some useless "thai engineering" as the weight of the overlapping tiles does all the required fixing.

of course... in the unlikely event of tornadoes and typhoons in Thailand none of the above-mentioned will solve the problem of "flying tiles".

Posted

Easiest solution for you to visit any house that was build more than 5 years ago and look up to the edges of the ceilings.You will see that all will have developed a small crack between ceiling and wall.

But this is the way it is done in Thailand, and you're not gonna change a thing about.

Regarding the tile wires,they will indeed be rusted and weak within a few years, but the only thing you can do is provide them with some galvanised wire which will hopefully last a few years longer.

another easy solution is visiting my house which was built nearly 7 years ago where you will not find any cracks as described by you.

by the way, i have looked at a number of homes in the stage of rough construction before starting building. nowhere i have seen "wires" but to hang the gypsum ceilings galvanised metal straps (width ~25mm) were used.

Posted

Kwasaki,

I thought about different mouldings to fix the crack, but it would not look good in the rooms (living room, dining room and foyer) that share and transition with the ceiling. By the way, how was the cove moulding attached, glued? Between masonry walls and gypsum ceiling, there's just nothing to nail to. Thanks for the ideas. ett

Everyones has a choice, I like all my rooms coved.

As someone has mentioned you can get coving in plaster gyproc types and polystyrene, they can be fixed with acrylic mastic or adhesive joint filler.

Wood coving is what I prefer as it becoming a feature in a room, you drill & fix at an angle using stainless steel screws and rawl-plugs into the wall or in an available structure according to the build.

Posted

by the way, i have looked at a number of homes in the stage of rough construction before starting building. nowhere i have seen "wires" but to hang the gypsum ceilings galvanised metal straps (width ~25mm) were used.

Ditto.

Posted (edited)

Doing a bit of reading on the web I found that the Gyproc branded system uses straps or a metal channel similar to the horizontal rails. The American USG system uses thick wires similar to what I was shown here. I guess it varies by area as it's quite common here (Issan) - for those that even have a ceiling, which is not so many. Recently built, nicer Issan homes tend to have ceilings and so far the ones I've visited used thick wires.

My gut feeling is that the straps are going to be better since the same weight is suspended by a wider piece of metal and the force per cm2 will be less. Hence, the tendency to stretch or deform should be less. The wires are more easily adjustable.

@Naam

I'm happy to hear that after 7 years yours aren't showing cracks or problems. It re-confirms that I want to explore using straps, not wires, and will check costs for that. I looked at one house here with a complicated terraced ceiling in a star and octagon shape. At the wall-ceiling corners there was small 3"-4" cracks (after 3 years). I can't say what really caused them but it could be lack of ceiling rigidity and pressure changes due to doors opening/closing.

---

On the roof tile front, I checked in at the Home Mart Roof Center today and got some info from the roof guy there. He said initially the CPAC tiles used wires to tie them on. Then later they changed to screws and that they were stronger but that many builders still used the older method. He said that they have had very few problems with wire and it was OK, but that screws are stronger. The difference in cost isn't really that much so I think the builders like the wire because it's faster to install and they have less breakage due to over tightening. He mentioned that with wire the builder had to get them snug but not too tight. Wire is a bit more resilient but tiles can get misaligned slightly sometimes. Anyway, he didn't have a strong opinion that wire was wrong or terrible, and didn't try to sell me screws.

Edited by topher
Posted

Easiest solution for you to visit any house that was build more than 5 years ago and look up to the edges of the ceilings.You will see that all will have developed a small crack between ceiling and wall.

But this is the way it is done in Thailand, and you're not gonna change a thing about.

Regarding the tile wires,they will indeed be rusted and weak within a few years, but the only thing you can do is provide them with some galvanised wire which will hopefully last a few years longer.

another easy solution is visiting my house which was built nearly 7 years ago where you will not find any cracks as described by you.

by the way, i have looked at a number of homes in the stage of rough construction before starting building. nowhere i have seen "wires" but to hang the gypsum ceilings galvanised metal straps (width ~25mm) were used.

I can pay a vist any time to check out your ceilings if you insist, keep in mind that I only consume the higher priced spirits and can be very thirsty at times.

Back on topic,my current house, which was build I guess 10-12 years ago and is not so far from yours by the way,has the ceiling hung with wires.The ceilings have also come "loose" from the walls in some rooms.This might be because the bedrooms have aircon on at night but not during daytime of course

My new house which is almost finished right now has the celings hung with straps,which I assume not to be galvanished but a kind of aluminium or thin plate.

Posted

The fellows that did my ceilings installed wood molding (coving) using a pneumatic nail gun, driving the nails into the rendered brick walls. Seems to have worked okay. Just have to putty the nail holes a bit. The nail gun countersunk the nails.

Posted

I can pay a vist any time to check out your ceilings if you insist, keep in mind that I only consume the higher priced spirits and can be very thirsty at times.

Back on topic,my current house, which was build I guess 10-12 years ago and is not so far from yours by the way,has the ceiling hung with wires.The ceilings have also come "loose" from the walls in some rooms.This might be because the bedrooms have aircon on at night but not during daytime of course

My new house which is almost finished right now has the celings hung with straps,which I assume not to be galvanished but a kind of aluminium or thin plate.

i stand corrected Pipo. after having a big mouth "no cracks" i walked around and found indeed cracks where gypsum ceiling and wall meet. one in a small passage and one in the kitchen. both of course caused by expansion and contraction due to big temperature differences, e.g. kitchen aircon cooling only when there's no cooking.

was also wrong as far as the metal of the straps is concerned. they are not galvanised steel but some sort of soft "white metal".

p.s. as far as your preference for higher priced spirits is concerned i think that can be accomodated biggrin.png

Posted

was also wrong as far as the metal of the straps is concerned. they are not galvanised steel but some sort of soft "white metal".

p.s. as far as your preference for higher priced spirits is concerned i think that can be accomodated biggrin.png

" soft "white metal"." They are probably platinum. whistling.gif

Posted

was also wrong as far as the metal of the straps is concerned. they are not galvanised steel but some sort of soft "white metal".

p.s. as far as your preference for higher priced spirits is concerned i think that can be accomodated biggrin.png

" soft "white metal"." They are probably platinum. whistling.gif

Yah, in Naam's house maybe. I'm thinking they are galvanised something though or maybe Al alloy. In any case, they do the job.

Posted

Kwasaki,

I thought about different mouldings to fix the crack, but it would not look good in the rooms (living room, dining room and foyer) that share and transition with the ceiling. By the way, how was the cove moulding attached, glued? Between masonry walls and gypsum ceiling, there's just nothing to nail to. Thanks for the ideas. ett

Just know that you'll always have differential movement between concrete/masonry walls supported from slab below versus the metal ceiling framing system suspended from roof framing above. The perimeter edge will crack if just 'mudded-in.' When it cracks, clean out the edges of old finishing compound, then caulk with paintable silicone caulk.

  • 1 month later...
Posted

Nice. good data but learned long ago for putting in drop down ceilings from tile roofs is an ez IN. Camois lift the tiles; and lift your drop in ceiling squares and they are in the house.

I only have full cement roof now and whatever is on top is for looks only.

A full slab will hold my hooks, wires to any false masonry celing or panels.

still trying to find the drop down metal work as they used 20 yrs ago. Now it is all cheap wire and not 4-5mm steel bars from Cement upper to the drop down framework ?

Where to find this metal grid work ?

If there was decent looking wood or metals tiles that fit;s I'd use that . Any remote stores in Pattaya as they are hiding in Pattaya ?

2 Ever try to find wall paper remover. ?? NO where. and how to get it off from 20 yrs ago ? Paint remover does not work wai.gif

Posted

yes I see these tin straps with holes in many places.Allows you to keep a constant height for hooks; at least .. Cheap way out from years ago and stornger than trying to make the wires the same length.

Where to find the beam/grid work that is not the new cheap junk !!

bah.gif

Posted

Graet ideas. YES I'd stay far away from wires in any make as they change length over time also. many bars out there with holes to kep same length

I used ot have fixed heavy rods with hooks; condo 25 yrs old . You can hang on these as well as the drop down grid sturcture. Its all gone cheap cheap but

I'd like to find the metal perforated bars; in galvenized vs this painted tin, metal. for the long term ?

Who can do a good job for recessed drywall/ masonray ceilings with side lights, recessesed lighting in pattaya ? I'm sure I could DIY but. Then were also talking about new wriing, breakers in an old place. w00t.gif

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