New Bus Terminal Idea

[gwmss15]

Why doesn’t the government look at a all in one place central bus terminal so that all northern eastern and southern buses are together.

In Brisbane Australia in the centre of the city they have an air conditioned underground bus terminal with BRT like access from the north and south.

Could something like this be build say under chatucuk park with connection to expressway and the MRT and BTS for easy passenger access and fast traffic free express bus access.

The tunnels would link to the following places

1. the express way and the normal road system the expressway one is a direct link i.e. bus only (no traffic there except for any on the expressway faster than some stupid routes via Rangsit or Bangna

2. old terminal would be used as bus storage reducing the size of the terminal as only buses going to drop off or pick up passengers on the next trip would be in the underground terminal why keep the extra not in service buses in there when you can clear the old mochit 2 and put them in there plenty of room and with its own traffic free tunnel to the new terminal

a sky bridge from the bts mochit could be built that also connects with the MRT and create an underground air conditioned walkway directly into the concourse of the new MO chit 2 underground bus terminal with about 100 to 200 bus parking bays with air conditioned waiting areas and fully electronic info signs in many different languages.

Most importantly an international standard ventilation system for the bus fumes

Buses could be stored at the old Mochit 2 terminal which will be set up as a full bus depot with fueling and maintenance areas bus staff rooms for the bus drivers. this could have a tunnel linking it to the underground bus terminal so extra buses could get to the terminal with out any traffic delays.

The benefits of this are:

1. all intercity buses depart from one place

2. traffic free access for buses

3. Easy passenger access via mrt and skytrain plus bus access either in the terminal or under mochit BTS station as is now.

4. possible smart card ticketing for all Bangkok transport and all Thailand intercity transport

5. multiple language electronic real time departure information for intercity buses at each stop and on the concourse where tickets can be purchased or smart cards refilled and information on buses obtained.

6. large area for bus storage and maintenance of intercity buses on old Mochit 2 site

Cost unknown but would be less than a single subway line but old sites southern and eastern could be sold to help pay for it

What do others think of this?

Edited December 21, 2005 by gwmss15

[karazyal]

Why doesn’t the government look at a all in one place central bus terminal so that all northern eastern and southern buses are together.

In Brisbane Australia in the centre of the city they have an air conditioned underground bus terminal with BRT like access from the north and south.

Could something like this be build say under chatucuk park with connection to expressway and the MRT and BTS for easy passenger access and fast traffic free express bus access.

The tunnels would link to the following places

1. the express way and the normal road system the expressway one is a direct link i.e. bus only (no traffic there except for any on the expressway faster than some stupid routes via Rangsit or Bangna

2. old terminal would be used as bus storage reducing the size of the terminal as only buses going to drop off or pick up passengers on the next trip would be in the underground terminal why keep the extra not in service buses in there when you can clear the old mochit 2 and put them in there plenty of room and with its own traffic free tunnel to the new terminal

a sky bridge from the bts mochit could be built that also connects with the MRT and create an underground air conditioned walkway directly into the concourse of the new MO chit 2 underground bus terminal with about 100 to 200 bus parking bays with air conditioned waiting areas and fully electronic info signs in many different languages.

Most importantly an international standard ventilation system for the bus fumes

Buses could be stored at the old Mochit 2 terminal which will be set up as a full bus depot with fueling and maintenance areas bus staff rooms for the bus drivers. this could have a tunnel linking it to the underground bus terminal so extra buses could get to the terminal with out any traffic delays.

The benefits of this are:

1. all intercity buses depart from one place

2. traffic free access for buses

3. Easy passenger access via mrt and skytrain plus bus access either in the terminal or under mochit BTS station as is now.

4. possible smart card ticketing for all Bangkok transport and all Thailand intercity transport

5. multiple language electronic real time departure information for intercity buses at each stop and on the concourse where tickets can be purchased or smart cards refilled and information on buses obtained.

6. large area for bus storage and maintenance of intercity buses on old Mochit 2 site

Cost unknown but would be less than a single subway line but old sites southern and eastern could be sold to help pay for it

What do others think of this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taxi in Brisbane around 8 to 10 dollars. Taxi in Bangkok for the same distance 1 dollar.

Your idea is interesting.

I think connecting the Skytrain directly to the Morchit bus station, in some way, would work out easier.

The Skytrain already connects both the subway and the Ekamai bus station. The new subway quickly shuttles passengers to the main train station.

I would like to see the Skytrain extended to the Airport first.

[sbk]

Why doesn’t the government look at a all in one place central bus terminal so that all northern eastern and southern buses are together.

In Brisbane Australia in the centre of the city they have an air conditioned underground bus terminal with BRT like access from the north and south.

Could something like this be build say under chatucuk park with connection to expressway and the MRT and BTS for easy passenger access and fast traffic free express bus access.

The tunnels would link to the following places

1. the express way and the normal road system the expressway one is a direct link i.e. bus only (no traffic there except for any on the expressway faster than some stupid routes via Rangsit or Bangna

2. old terminal would be used as bus storage reducing the size of the terminal as only buses going to drop off or pick up passengers on the next trip would be in the underground terminal why keep the extra not in service buses in there when you can clear the old mochit 2 and put them in there plenty of room and with its own traffic free tunnel to the new terminal

a sky bridge from the bts mochit could be built that also connects with the MRT and create an underground air conditioned walkway directly into the concourse of the new MO chit 2 underground bus terminal with about 100 to 200 bus parking bays with air conditioned waiting areas and fully electronic info signs in many different languages.

Most importantly an international standard ventilation system for the bus fumes

Buses could be stored at the old Mochit 2 terminal which will be set up as a full bus depot with fueling and maintenance areas bus staff rooms for the bus drivers. this could have a tunnel linking it to the underground bus terminal so extra buses could get to the terminal with out any traffic delays.

The benefits of this are:

1. all intercity buses depart from one place

2. traffic free access for buses

3. Easy passenger access via mrt and skytrain plus bus access either in the terminal or under mochit BTS station as is now.

4. possible smart card ticketing for all Bangkok transport and all Thailand intercity transport

5. multiple language electronic real time departure information for intercity buses at each stop and on the concourse where tickets can be purchased or smart cards refilled and information on buses obtained.

6. large area for bus storage and maintenance of intercity buses on old Mochit 2 site

Cost unknown but would be less than a single subway line but old sites southern and eastern could be sold to help pay for it

What do others think of this?

Seems far too logical for it to ever be implemented.

[Plus]

Bangkok isn't exactly a transit place so not many people commute between bus terminals.

[sabaijai]

Bangkok isn't exactly a transit place so not many people commute between bus terminals.

Good point.

[chownah]

I think that many of your benefits are not very beneficial especially whent you consider the huge expense to build and maintain the system you describe

The "benefits""

1. all intercity buses depart from one place

This is not really a benefit...it is the feature for which you are trying to show benefits.

2. traffic free access for buses

Traffic free access is only required because you are putting the terminal in downtown...where the bus stations are now there is no need for traffic free access and if there was a need for this then it could be built at the existing stations.

3. Easy passenger access via mrt and skytrain plus bus access either in the terminal or under mochit BTS station as is now.

Most Thais would arrive by the same form of transportation that they use now...taxi, tuk tuk, motocy taxi, bus. I think that you might be creating a traffic nightmare on top of the traffic nightmare that already exists downtown.

4. possible smart card ticketing for all Bangkok transport and all Thailand intercity transport

This could be done at the existing terminals if it was beneficial...you don't need to build a huge infrastructure downtown to do this.

5. multiple language electronic real time departure information for intercity buses at each stop and on the concourse where tickets can be purchased or smart cards refilled and information on buses obtained.

This could be done at the existing terminals if it was beneficial...you don't need to build a huge infrastructure downtown to do this. With internet connections it is easy to have a decentralized display of information and financial transactions all controlled from one room located anywhere in the world.

6. large area for bus storage and maintenance of intercity buses on old Mochit 2 site

Storage of buses is not a problem and it is relatively inexpensive to arrange for more storage near the existing stations...really not a problem especially because these buses may be large but they can be easily started and driven to places nearby!!

So, to summarize: In my opinion what seems like a slick idea is actually really expensive, probably would cause traffic problems in downtown from people arriving and departing in downtown, and it really doesn't provide much benefit expcept for the fact that foreigners who don't know about the bus system can find their bus without having to think too hard....Thais have no problem with the system as it exists.

Edited December 21, 2005 by chownah

[gwmss15]

"chownah" I see you have had no idea about transit planning before

The idea of this is to improve what is basically a big mess and is difficult to use even for Thais I have asked Thais about this and a lot would like a centralized bus terminal that has all the info you need and is clean and tidy.

Yes you could do the smart card thing with what’s there now but it was just an addition to the project not the main part.

keeping the tuk tuks moto bikes and cars way from the terminal is a good idea all they do is create traffic this the point of the BTS and MRT to reduce traffic so no parking and areas for tuk tuks or motorbikes

Taxis are needed but you walk up to the surface exit (under the BTS at mochit) and get one from the taxi stand next the exit.

Bus access is all ready inside the terminal at one end of it with its own smart card access and info counters and about 20 bus stops just for them so an improvement in access not a decrease in access.

the traffic in the current bus terminal areas is crap anyway this will help to ease it not increase it as the intercity buses are not using the normal streets just the existing expressways of Bangkok and the city buses will do what they do now use the normal roads then via a tunnel enter the terminal with no cars or moto bikes following them

[steveromagnino]

The idea of this is to improve what is basically a big mess and is difficult to use even for Thais I have asked Thais about this and a lot would like a centralized bus terminal that has all the info you need and is clean and tidy.

keeping the tuk tuks moto bikes and cars way from the terminal is a good idea all they do is create traffic this the point of the BTS and MRT to reduce traffic so no parking and areas for tuk tuks or motorbikes

Taxis are needed but you walk up to the surface exit (under the BTS at mochit) and get one from the taxi stand next the exit.

the traffic in the current bus terminal areas is crap anyway this will help to ease it not increase it as the intercity buses are not using the normal streets just the existing expressways of Bangkok and the city buses will do what they do now use the normal roads then via a tunnel enter the terminal with no cars or moto bikes following them

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you raise some excellent points, although I feel your solution is massively expensive and is not the onlt one to address the points you raise

- lack of links to BTS/MRT

- multiple terminals

- confusing

Lack of links

I would point out that the majority of people I know getting on buses are the types that do not ride the skytrain; many are ridnig on the bus to get to the station, so the BTS link won't help. And for anyone (in fact most people) not living on the BTS rail line, the attachment is no help. And lastly for anyone carrying stuff, well you can't always carry it on the BTS. Foreighers, well yes this is more useful I agree.

The link between Morchit current station and the morchit future station under Jatujact would be infinitely easier if they just joined the two together with an additional line to Mor Chit bus terminal; I suspect traffic on it would be negligible for the reason above. The idea of tunnelling out below JJ park is impractical and unlikely given the amount of money available; who would pay for this and since finance is allocating money away from something else, what would we give up? e.g. the park belongs to one dept; it is looked after by the BMA, the bus terminal belongs to another, the buses are private etc etc.....

Buses are a fairly inefficient form of transport, why not allocate this money to improving rail which is already operating in a similar way to how you describe?

Assuming that the money was actually spent, how will you justify to the public why the travelling time to say Chonburi should increase by 30 minutes or so, wasting fuel and so on because the terminal is now on the wrong side of town for going to Chonburi? Ditto for south?

Additionally, for all the private bus services that do not use terminals (e.g. Khao San road, Rot Dtoo ekachon) will you force them to use the terminals too? If not, we are in the same situation we are in now.

Multiple terminals

Given the traffic situation as it is now, the idea is that the terminals are on the side of town they service. This saves considerable time, since particularly the north south line is terrible. Incidentally, there are a few buses leaving from say Mor Chit that go south to pattaya as well; but mostly it is geographical segmentation.

If we combine all into one, it would be a MASSIVE area which does not deliver any economies of scale for the bus operators; because mostly the bus operators are regional, it is not one single company that operates all the buses. e.g. Korat Tour might run just Ubon, Korat, BKK; whether they are in the same terminal as Pattaya Tour doing Pattaya, Bang Saen, BKK makes no difference to them; they need service staff in BKK and in Korat either way. However, it would cause gridlock unless there are great links to the local motorway system... and this is the case whether it is 1 terminal or 4. So... solution is link the terminals to the motorway system, irrespective of how many there are. Actually, the links are not so bad in some cases.

Since the buses going from say Ubon to Pattaya do not pass through BKK, transit is not an issue unless they are people going to one place, resting then going onwards. In which case I do not see that they would spend a night at the terminal.

The size of one single terminal would increase walking a lot. I just don't see the point. I think hub systems are going out of favour right, people like point to point; so as long as the systems link together that is enough...whether it is 1 terminal or 4, I still need to get in either a taxi and go to mor chit, or walk to the underground and go to Mor chit......

Confusing current system

Sorry, but I don't know any Thai people regularly using the current system who have problems. I know tons of Thai people who refuse to use buses; however that is nothing to do with terminals, it is to do with cleanliness, convenience and the fact most will drive themselves. Agree on the english bit; don't see any benefit to smart cards. Again, with the current structure of many operators, many reginonal, the smart card would not help them at all.

I read Thai, so it isn't confusing to me either. With no english, it would be bad, but that is nothing to do with the 4 terminals, it is to do with poor english service.

I've looked at the translink system, and I have no idea how they got it running in Aussie, most countries don't have this system, at least not as flash as it sounds on paper. Sounds very cool. However, I can't quite see the value to me, and I cannot think of anyone who lives here that would be wantnig to use such a system as it seems to mean you have one pre pay card for everything. Since i use the promotional price on the skytrain, I use a different promotion on the underground and I hardly ever use a bus, what use would it be to me? And why should I store value with the card? Am I missing somethign with the benefits to this card

I'd also point out that the scheme you propose works in Brisbane at least in part because IMHO:

- the volume of buses is minimal and the places people are going are few (what is population of Aussie, and how many travel on buses, and how many cities do they go to)

- Brisbane is small anyway with a well defined city centre

- Brisbane is a lot richer and newer than BKK

In summary, I think the good points of your idea:

- link all 4 terminals into motorway system more directly (I think there are 4, there might only be 3!)

- join terminals into skytrain system

- english signage

The rest I don't see deliver enough benefits/any benefits to justify probably destroying a very nice park and creating even more gridlock for the express way section from Din Daeng South. I also don't even consider most to be feasible without nationalisation of the bus service, which would be a disaster.

I would suggest that the money would be far better spent on train system upgrades and water transport.

[gwmss15]

Did you read the part on the 2 tunnels that would be used to link the terminal to the following:

1. the express way and the normal road system the expressway one is a direct link i.e. bus only (no traffic there except for any on the expressway faster than some stupid routes via Rangsit or Bangna

2. old terminal would be used as bus storage reducing the size of the terminal as only buses going to drop off or pick up passengers on the next trip would be in the underground terminal why keep the extra not in service buses in there when you can clear the old mochit 2 and put them in there plenty of room and with its own traffic free tunnel to the new terminal

3. I agree it would be a big terminal but the one in Queensland has hundreds of bus routes through it most the town buses and handles tens of thousands of people per hour and is right in the centre of the city which would be like having it in silom road and it has 2 traffic free route for buses to get 20km plus from the city before they hit any shared traffic areas

but I could hardly see why you would need more than 200 bus pick and set down points if buses only waited there for pick up and set down not for going on a tea break that’s what the bus storage area is for on the old site.

from what I feel the underground space will be about 300 to 400 meters long and about 100 meters wide

with 2 or 3 levels in it

1. Tickets restaurants and waiting areas and bus info (linked to MRT and BTS)

2. Bus stops 1 to 100 Plus a small area for up to 20 town bus routes that used to serve mochit 2 numbered as A to Z on level 2

3. Bus stops 101 to 200

also

I agree on that high speed rail would be much better but I don’t see it happening we can not do it in Australia its unlikely in Thailand I feel

This suggestion was to make bus travel more convenient and centralized and easy to use for locals and tourists alike.

I think the pattaya point is not that relevant because even if they live next to the eastern terminal what happens when the need to go to the south or north so it would only be inconvenient for people who live in the south of Bangkok and only for 1 out of 3 different trip directions.

They could just run an aircond articulated metro bus (similar to the orange aircond city buses but longer) from onnut bts to rayong via chonburi and pattaya to keep the complaints to a minimum they would get a cheaper and just as comfortable bus service. Say 40 baht to chonburi and 70 pattaya and 100 baht to rayong.

I never intended Bangkok to have long BRT style lanes because 1 adds cost 2 its difficult to find space to put them I just stated that Brisbane has them but in way the express ways of Bangkok would be not that much slower than a BRT lane anyway as the traffic from my experience is light most of the time for all areas other than bangna for some reason but from mochit area you don’t need to go to bangna to go to pattaya anyway so avoid the traffic

Chatucuck was selected because 1. there is both MRT and BTS access large open space so tunneling and other construction would be simpler as there is no buildings on the surface just a park and no the park will not need to be dug up just a small area at one end for access to the underground space during construction.

you could build this under lumpini for all I care but you will need a lot more tunnels under the city to get the buses in and out and the bus storage part would be lost at lumpini the tunnels at lumpini will need to link to the expressways but its much further and more is in the way.

Edited December 23, 2005 by gwmss15

[chownah]

"chownah" I see you have had no idea about transit planning before

.................

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I worked as a transportation engineer for 7 years in the US. I'm not a planner but I have had some exposure to the planning process by being a project representative at meetings etc. I do know how to evaluate benefits and I'll stand by all of my comments concerning the list of supposed benefits. For every proposed project the proponents always have a list of "benefits". I learned along time ago that very often they really aren't benefits but simply features of the proposed project and that often these features can be provided through existing infrastructure upgrades or other means. In looking at a list of "benefits" for a proposed project the first step in the evaluation process is to say, "This is not a benefit at all because,................" and then think of why it is not a "benefit". For instance the first "benefit", that intercity busses all depart from the same place is simply a feature of the project. The essence of the proposed project is to have a centeral departure point....this in itself is not a benefit. A benefit means that something has been done that saves time, or money, or environmental impact, or improves mobility, education, health, etc. These are benefits....things that are improved because of the project. A central location in and of itself is not an improvement of anything tangible. If it had said that the central location saved people money then we could discuss if and how it did this...and if we agreed that it did save people money then we could agree that it was a benefit...but just say there is a centeral location is a benefit is meaningless...some people think that having multiple locations is a benefit and they are equally wrong. A benefit must show who or what benefits, how they benefit, the magnitude of the benefit, and alternative ways that the benefit could be realized (or not) outside the scope of the project.

Evaluating "benefits" requires the highest degree of critical thought because the people who like a project and want to see it go forward always see everything related to their project as a benefit and the people against it always see everything as non-beneficial. If you think that this project benefits someone or something then write up a short description of each benefit individually and we'll discuss them.....you have already seen my ideas about the list so far and I stand by my judgements but I would gladly discuss any of my comments if you would like.