Americans Abandoning Citizenship In Record Numbers Due To Government Tax/Fine Harrassment

[el jefe]

Well, if you have a wife/husband you can just have them do your banking for you. Assuming you trust them..

Right. You can give the IRS 10-25% of your income or give your wife 100% of your assets.

Trusting the IRS would be a better option for 99% of the posters on TV.

[nong38]

Jing, me old fruit....you boys wouldnt have this problem now if you had stayed a colony, you would have only been paying tax on the tea...

yeah, but they'd be too good at cricket and they'd monopolise the commonwealth games. Couldn't have that.

I do sympathise with their situation though, land of the free? Like everywhere else big brother is watching you!

[exeter]

Anyone fancy a move to the Falkland Islands?

[meand]

It's ironic that you Americans are complaining about the very thing that brought about your the Independence from Britain. That was all about paying British taxes for work done in the USA. Maybe you should form a new state and fight for independence from the USA?

This has actually happened. Interestingly, upon the verge of success in creating their state, world war II started. Who knows what would have happened if the war started at a different time.

http://www.jeffersonstate.com/

[BudRight]

It looks like this deals with only two rules and mostly that law that was passed in 2010. Also if anyone challenges this it's very questionable if congress would have the authority to tax wages earned outside the US.

Also, with this mountain of paperwork, how many people do you think the IRS would need to employ to actually read all of it? It would take more agents than the population of the entire country.

[Javabear]

It looks like this deals with only two rules and mostly that law that was passed in 2010. Also if anyone challenges this it's very questionable if congress would have the authority to tax wages earned outside the US.

Also, with this mountain of paperwork, how many people do you think the IRS would need to employ to actually read all of it? It would take more agents than the population of the entire country.

Americans abroad have always had the obligation to report and pay tax due on income earned whether foreign or domestic. Also, they use computers to scan most of the documents and flag things when they think something funny is going on. Currently they are about 3 years behind. Also, there is no statute of limitations with the IRS, if they believe they have evidence of fraud they can go back as far as they like.

[Javabear]

Basically, the good old US of A is broke. Broker than broke really and they will tax and spend, spend and tax, and just plain tax the bejesus out of everything that moves. It won't help though and I would expect some capital flight controls are not more than a few years away. After all, how can Obama redistribute all of Americas wealth if it all leaves before he can get that far.

[Naam]

It looks like this deals with only two rules and mostly that law that was passed in 2010. Also if anyone challenges this it's very questionable if congress would have the authority to tax wages earned outside the US.

Also, with this mountain of paperwork, how many people do you think the IRS would need to employ to actually read all of it? It would take more agents than the population of the entire country.

nobody talked about additional taxing. the discussion is "information relayed to the IRS". it's not a matter whether the IRA reads all what is submitted but the chance that an individual is caught exists and therefore the returns will (most probably) contain all taxable earnings and capital gains.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

While I have no plans to renounce my citizenship I do feel the direction the US is moving makes it prudent to have a foreign passport, in case I want to in the future. It seems like every month they come up with some new and ridiculous law that makes it more difficult to be an expat. So I have been doing a little research and found that Mexico, Ecuador and Peru have naturalization laws that are reasonable

The rub is finding much information on people who have actually received a passport. Mexico seems to be pretty good but you need four of five years of living there for 9 months out of the year. Ecuador only takes 3 years +-. But the rub there is do you really get one. Peru seems to be the best as it only takes two or three years to apply and 3 to 6 months to receive it and it seems like a lot of people have achieved it there. And the beauty of it is you only have to be there for 6 months out of the year. Also looked into Uruguay and Paraguay but it appears no one really receives one from either of them.

Dominica you can buy one for $75,000 single or $100,000 for a family plus $3,000 to 25,000 for a company to handle it, which is a requirement.The process only takes a few months and you only have to be there physically for a week or so. But once again actually getting it seems a little iffy.

Anyone know of any better choices?

[Soutpeel]

Anyone know of any better choices?

Montenegro ?

[Naam]

Anyone know of any better choices?

Paraguay (not a joke!).

[Jingthing]

I think Ecuador is possible but they don't recognize dual citizenship.

Uruguay is in the process (or has already passed) taxation on all global income to expats, etc. Expats are fleeing.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Anyone know of any better choices?

Montenegro ?

I don't have a few million to spare.

The affair in Montenegro also involved the granting of citizenship on grounds of investment through discretionary power. In the first half of 2009, the Montenegrin press revealed that Taksin Shinawatra— the former Prime Minister of Thailand who has been convicted of corruption —received a Montenegrin passport (and thus Montenegrin citizenship) on the basis of his planned investment in Montenegrin tourism. Despite repeated attempts by civil society organisations, the Ministry of Interior refused to reveal the details of this issue, referring to the Law on the Protection of Personal Data. Eventually, the Montenegrin authorities revealed that Shinawatra was naturalised on grounds of his multi-million investment in Montenegrin tourism. Apart from generating allegations of corruption, the Shinawatra affair actually pushed the Montenegrin government to adopt the rules for investment-based naturalisation. Due to negative reactions in the EU these rules are yet to be implemented, which still leaves the discretion in the hands of the Montenegrin authorities.

[glassdude007]

Gret topic ...Time for Another Tea Party for Sure...

I was at the USA Embassey Bangkok last month,

Two women there trying too renounce there citizenship,

first i ever heard of this..

it would have been nice to hear there story as to why and how they plan to do it.

But i was busy getting new pages added that used to be free but now cost 83 Dollars.

Some pissed off usa citezens at the embassey that day for sure.

[Soutpeel]

Anyone know of any better choices?

Paraguay (not a joke!).

South Africa....if set up correctly have a passport in 5 years and dual nationality is recognised, and as regards taxation, once out the country for 6 months SA taxman are not interested.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I think Ecuador is possible but they don't recognize dual citizenship.

Uruguay is in the process (or has already passed) taxation on all global income to expats, etc. Expats are fleeing.

From Moving to Ecuador .com

Can I get dual citizenship and an Ecuadorian passport?

Any foreigner who has been a legal resident for three years may acquire an Ecuadorian passport (and nationality) after due process. Ecuador allows its citizens to be dual nationals, provided the country of origin (such as the U.S. and Britain) permits this.

[Jingthing]

I think Ecuador is possible but they don't recognize dual citizenship.

Uruguay is in the process (or has already passed) taxation on all global income to expats, etc. Expats are fleeing.

From Moving to Ecuador .com

Can I get dual citizenship and an Ecuadorian passport?

Any foreigner who has been a legal resident for three years may acquire an Ecuadorian passport (and nationality) after due process. Ecuador allows its citizens to be dual nationals, provided the country of origin (such as the U.S. and Britain) permits this.

OK, this says something kind of different:

This is basically because to acquire you Ecuadorian citizenship, you have to symbolically renounce your citizenship and passport of your country, and even though it is only symbolically it is a hard thing to do for most people.

http://www.goecuador.com/living-ecuador/moving-to-ecuador5.html

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I think Ecuador is possible but they don't recognize dual citizenship.

Uruguay is in the process (or has already passed) taxation on all global income to expats, etc. Expats are fleeing.

From Moving to Ecuador .com

Can I get dual citizenship and an Ecuadorian passport?

Any foreigner who has been a legal resident for three years may acquire an Ecuadorian passport (and nationality) after due process. Ecuador allows its citizens to be dual nationals, provided the country of origin (such as the U.S. and Britain) permits this.

OK, this says something kind of different:

This is basically because to acquire you Ecuadorian citizenship, you have to symbolically renounce your citizenship and passport of your country, and even though it is only symbolically it is a hard thing to do for most people.

http://www.goecuador...o-ecuador5.html

In either case I prefer Peru as it is quicker and requires less time in the country. Although they do tax worldwide income while you are living there, if they know about it. They don't tax Social Security or any pension fund $$. And according to expatperu forum they have given out a lot of passports.Take a look at Lima Peru in youtube nice looking place, not at all what I expected, it's not all lamas and flute players.

[Jingthing]

In either case I prefer Peru as it is quicker and requires less time in the country. Although they do tax worldwide income while you are living there, if they know about it. They don't tax Social Security or any pension fund $$. And according to expatperu forum they have given out a lot of passports.Take a look at Lima Peru in youtube nice looking place, not at all what I expected, it's not all lamas and flute players.

I've been to Lima. It really isn't that nice down on the ground. The climate is weird and depressing. The beach is filthy. The crime rate is very high. Peruvian food is great though but I think it would become boring and the international options are limited. Also, I must admit. "Cute" people! That all said, I kind of liked it, but I like Pattaya ... Basically, Lima is really not the kind of place where a large percentage of visitors visit and feel I want to live here. Edited April 20, 2012 by Jingthing

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Anyone know of any better choices?

Paraguay (not a joke!).

Anyone seeking a tax-free residence, possibly leading to a legal second citizenship, should seriously consider The Republic of Paraguay, which has one of the most liberal constitutions in the world. Here are a few reasons:

• Paraguay has no personal income or capital gains tax, and one of the lowest costs of living in the world.
  
• Official Residence in Paraguay is relatively easy to obtain. Once granted, is valid for life. No renewals necessary.
  
• Once you have official residence, there is no legal obligation to stay in the country.
  
• After three years of Official Residence, you may apply for Paraguayan nationality through Naturalization. (Article 148 of the Constitution)
  
• Dual or multiple nationality is permitted subject to certain limitations. (Article 149 of the Constitution)
  
• Honorary Citizenship may be granted by Act of Congress (Article 151 of the Constitution)
  
• Paraguayans enjoy excellent visa free travel opportunities, including most of Europe.
  

But is I understand it the president has to approve each application and without $$ he isn't apt too. But take that with a grain of salt as the source is unknown. Once you get the paperwork submitted and deposit $5,000 in the bank you can leave the country until it is completed, so you don't have to be there long. Same source.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

JT

Thanks for that. The problem with photos and videos is no smell and they don't typically take photos of piles of trash etc. But being able to accomplish it in a bit over two years and only having to spend 6 months a year there has a lot of appeal. I understand the traffic is much like thailand but more like bumper cars. And they have a bad habit of crowding you, invading your space if you will. On the plus side it is a booming economy and they say friendly. Do you think it is worth a visit?

[gregb]

Anyone know of any better choices?

Paraguay (not a joke!).

Anyone seeking a tax-free residence, possibly leading to a legal second citizenship, should seriously consider The Republic of Paraguay, which has one of the most liberal constitutions in the world. Here are a few reasons:

• Paraguay has no personal income or capital gains tax, and one of the lowest costs of living in the world.
  
• Official Residence in Paraguay is relatively easy to obtain. Once granted, is valid for life. No renewals necessary.
  
• Once you have official residence, there is no legal obligation to stay in the country.
  
• After three years of Official Residence, you may apply for Paraguayan nationality through Naturalization. (Article 148 of the Constitution)
  
• Dual or multiple nationality is permitted subject to certain limitations. (Article 149 of the Constitution)
  
• Honorary Citizenship may be granted by Act of Congress (Article 151 of the Constitution)
  
• Paraguayans enjoy excellent visa free travel opportunities, including most of Europe.
  

But is I understand it the president has to approve each application and without $$ he isn't apt too. But take that with a grain of salt as the source is unknown. Once you get the paperwork submitted and deposit $5,000 in the bank you can leave the country until it is completed, so you don't have to be there long. Same source.

Dual citizenship is not permitted for naturalized Paraguayans. It is only permitted for native born. If you are American and become Paraguyan, they require you to give up your US citizenship.

[Jingthing]

JT

Thanks for that. The problem with photos and videos is no smell and they don't typically take photos of piles of trash etc. But being able to accomplish it in a bit over two years and only having to spend 6 months a year there has a lot of appeal. I understand the traffic is much like thailand but more like bumper cars. And they have a bad habit of crowding you, invading your space if you will. On the plus side it is a booming economy and they say friendly. Do you think it is worth a visit?

I don't regret visiting. I found it very interesting but the highlights for me were Peruvian food and getting real lucky in the holiday romance department. That and the Museum of the Inquisition. Yes, that inquisition.

[Naam]

Anyone know of any better choices?

Paraguay (not a joke!).

Anyone seeking a tax-free residence, possibly leading to a legal second citizenship, should seriously consider The Republic of Paraguay, which has one of the most liberal constitutions in the world. Here are a few reasons:

• Paraguay has no personal income or capital gains tax, and one of the lowest costs of living in the world.
  
• Official Residence in Paraguay is relatively easy to obtain. Once granted, is valid for life. No renewals necessary.
  
• Once you have official residence, there is no legal obligation to stay in the country.
  
• After three years of Official Residence, you may apply for Paraguayan nationality through Naturalization. (Article 148 of the Constitution)
  
• Dual or multiple nationality is permitted subject to certain limitations. (Article 149 of the Constitution)
  
• Honorary Citizenship may be granted by Act of Congress (Article 151 of the Constitution)
  
• Paraguayans enjoy excellent visa free travel opportunities, including most of Europe.
  

But is I understand it the president has to approve each application and without $$ he isn't apt too. But take that with a grain of salt as the source is unknown. Once you get the paperwork submitted and deposit $5,000 in the bank you can leave the country until it is completed, so you don't have to be there long. Same source.

Dual citizenship is not permitted for naturalized Paraguayans. It is only permitted for native born. If you are American and become Paraguyan, they require you to give up your US citizenship.

giving up U.S. citizenship is the idea... last time i checked. but keeping it and avoiding for various reasons that one possesses dual nationality is the lowest hurdle to overcome. the big advantage of a Paraguayan passport is international banking and investing without the attached restrictions which exist for citizens who's country levies income tax on worldwide income or tax evaders (especially Europeans) who live in their home countries but enjoying income tax free offshore banking. the latter only a matter of time till the door closes.

[Time Traveller]

I think they mean you are liable if your global net assets are worth more 2million. Doesn't matter to the IRS what country your assets are in.

of course it does not matter because if you have some grey cells working the IRS knows <deleted> in what country/jurisdiction and in what way you hold your assets.

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Time Traveller

[ozyjon]

Good article, thanks JingThing. Read about his a couple years ago as I considered it. Element of emotional "voting with our feet" in protest, but the article laid out a few scenarios I hadn't considered, the common unpinning being money, taxes and overbearing govt interferece in our lives. Started out fair enough, virtuous War on Terror and all that, then leeched into broader powers to other agencies. We've been warned, so we need another McCarthy-like commission to haul up American expats with foreign bank accounts and accuse them of being tax dodging unpatriotic souls. That sort of public "name and shame" will never happen.

I do resent paying taxes (even with the FE Income Exclusion) to assist in operating the infrastructure of a country I don't live in, probably never will again, but do visit for a few weeks every few years or so. Mind less paying Social Security and Medicare monthlies, rationalizing that I might actually avail those accrual type services (chuckle) at some point in the future, and try to keep my head in the sand on the argument they may not be around by the time I get to eligibility age and further, my current contributions support a percentage "on the dole" who are defrauding the system. On the other hand, Mom/Dad are still around and collect monthly SS benefits, so I rationalize I'm helping them. A lovely, warm feeling, sorta like pissing down one's leg in winter, in the snow.

Oh, and to the lads who droned on above with the predictable "shoulda remained a colony" pokes, I actually agree, only as far as favorable expat taxes status goes. Yes, it would be grand.

However for the rest of it, and setting aside that you drive on the wrong side of the road, I am shocked and confused why you didn't relay the colonist comment to me in either Urdu, Farsi or Hindi, which makes complete sense to me as Z BBC told me all good English sur-names these days end in I or "Zed". Further, at least for now, where I'm located, can still go to "my" Embassy for a quick, new passport, not Germany, as I've heard a few of my UK allies and best mates lament about recently.

I do, however, say this descending into a barely audible, embarrassed murmur (as should you) as, where I'm at, the American Service Timing is 2 days weekly on the comical order of like 0900-0905. I arrive in the car park at 0830, compensating for the fact it requires 10 minutes to explain why I'm there to a host national (jobs programme), empty my pockets to get frisked by an Asian security guard paid slightly better than slave wages (jobs programme), then eventually I'm escorted by another Asian security guard into the Consular office where I am interviewed in front of a bullet proof window by a non-American (jobs programme). Shell out the required fees, reverse to check out with the Asian security guard and host national, who crosses me off the visitor's list.

I can visit my Embassy and save for other unfotunate souls like me, never see another American.

In'Shallah, to be fair again, you should actually relay your colonist break away barbs to us Americans on this forum in Spanish which, after all, is our official, national language.

Allah Akbhar, Humdullah, peace be upon you, best mate. Happy taxes to the rest of us.

J

You are so true, i landed in Miami some years ago and couldn't speak the language,, had to re-learn my high school Spanish so i could converse with the locals (what country was i an anyway) the English language was no good to me there.

[Naam]

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

for the record:

-until now no names / account details of U.S. clients where handed over by UBS. i don't deny that it will happen sooner or later.

-the IRS can only get details of assets linked to U.S. citizens. unlinking/detaching assets is the game. the latter is not easy and it gets more and more difficult with every day that passes, but it is not impossible...

example:

-if a U.S. citizen liquidates his assets and uses the cash to buy his Thai girlfriend a bar in Pattaya or Phuket or builds a mansion for his in-laws in Nakhon Nowhere the IRS is a toothless tiger

[flying]

until a spineless banker turns over their client account details to Uncle Sam like what UBS did a couple of years ago. Naam, whatever you want to believe is fine but when Swiss bankers decide to give up their prime selling point - secrecy - after a bit of arm twisting, then I'm pretty sure the IRS could find out details about the financial accounts of Americans anywhere. That is unless you want to kept your offshore financial assets with the Bank of North Korea.

Yes but that was because the US had a arm to twist with the Swiss

The threat being if they do not divulge the info they cannot have a branch in the US.

Perhaps even disallow transfers from the US to their banks?

To that end & in regards to Thailand the only bank the US would have that kind of persuasive powers with

would probably be Bangkok Bank because they wish to keep their New York Branch open.

I am not so sure smaller banks like Ayudhya would have any reason to comply as it is more work for them &

they have nothing to lose by saying no thanks

Edited April 20, 2012 by flying

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

Naam

How would you go about determining if people are actually receiving a Paraguay citizenship and a passport after three years versus filing and nothing ever happening. I don’t want to piss away three years waiting for something to happen and then find out it isn’t going to happen.

I should mention that this passport would be for my wife who is also a US citizen. I already have dual citizenship by descendent, but may consider having dual dual passports. But I don’t want her left with being stuck in the US if it turns turtle and I’m no longer around. Looking for a passport that doesn’t take too long to get and where you don’t have to spend nine months or more a year until you get it. Also prefer not to be in a cold climate. There are a lot more things to consider but I won’t cover them here.

Regards BT

[endure]

I thought the USA was THE country that everyone in the world wants to immigrate to? That's what our cousins across the Pond keep telling us - loudly