Americans Abandoning Citizenship In Record Numbers Due To Government Tax/Fine Harrassment

[flying]

A rather related news item. "Rumors" that the IRS is specifically targeting American expats in Israel , Singapore, and Hong Kong for an increased number of expat audits. Of course the IRS won't comment, so for all we know this trend will hit U.S. expats everywhere. Also some good info in the article related to the new bank info sharing regulations and their timing, etc.

The accountants who spoke with Haaretz generally agreed that over the last two or three years, the U.S. administration has been steadily "tightening the screws" - as one accountant put it - as it cracks down on offshore tax evasion by U.S. citizens in an effort to bolster revenues and compliance.

http://www.haaretz.c...israel-1.426788

Maybe the IRS wants to get their auditors a vacation package?

Humbug

Edited April 27, 2012 by flying

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

If you are thinking of getting out of Dodge you best hurry.

US Senators Charles Schumer and Bob Casey to restrict the right of Americans to renounce citizenship – a populist reaction to Facebook co-founder Eduardo Savarin renouncing his US citizenship, saving him millions of dollatrs in US taxes.

The two Senators call Saverin’s renunciation “an outrage” and describe a plan to tax expatriates even after they renounce citizenship, that would also bar such individuals from re-entering the USA.

The bill is to be called the “Ex-PATRIOT” Act, which stands for the “Expatriation Prevention by Abolishing Tax-Related Incentives for Offshore Tenancy” Act – whatever that is supposed to mean.

Q BYTES – 19 May 2012 – HOW WILL YOUR OFFSHORE BANK WEATHER THE STORM?

[smiling mantis]

Combine this with the recent bill that adds being late on your taxes as a reason to confiscate your passport, on top of using underage sex to extend U.S. law into any and all jurisdictions on the planet (a precedent sure to see other use), and it really does appear that life as an expat is only going to get worse. By design?

This is Thailand's great weakness as a retirement destination... you can't really know that you get to retire here.

[gregb]

If you are thinking of getting out of Dodge you best hurry.

US Senators Charles Schumer and Bob Casey to restrict the right of Americans to renounce citizenship – a populist reaction to Facebook co-founder Eduardo Savarin renouncing his US citizenship, saving him millions of dollatrs in US taxes.

The two Senators call Saverin’s renunciation “an outrage” and describe a plan to tax expatriates even after they renounce citizenship, that would also bar such individuals from re-entering the USA.

The bill is to be called the “Ex-PATRIOT” Act, which stands for the “Expatriation Prevention by Abolishing Tax-Related Incentives for Offshore Tenancy” Act – whatever that is supposed to mean.

Q BYTES – 19 May 2012 – HOW WILL YOUR OFFSHORE BANK WEATHER THE STORM?

Good god...now this is just unfair. Read the summary of the proposed law:

http://techcrunch.com/2012/05/17/schumer-and-caseys-ex-patriot-act-details-of-how-they-plan-to-get-saverins-67m-and-more/

That means every single person who has renounced over the past decade, and everyone in the future, even if they do it before this law gets passed, is going to be taxes on any asset they have in the US at 30% forever. Also, every single person is going to be reevaluated for whether they should be permanently barred from the country.

Note that they are doing this retroactively. Never mind that they wrote the rules to begin with and people simply followed them. Now they can just invent new laws and apply them retroactively to things people did in the past.

Makes me proud to be an American. What a great country I come from....

Meanwhile, Dominca passports are only $130K. Tempting...very tempting. Not for tax reasons. Just so I no longer have to say that I have any association at all with these jerks.

[smiling mantis]

The reason I want another passport isn't to avoid taxes. It's to distribute my assets so that I'm protected from a single point of failure.

Consider, you enter the Forex market, and invest in currencies. The dollar goes tits up, like we all know it will. You're protected? How, if your investment is made via a U.S. brokerage firm, and the dollar going in the toilet puts them out of business (infrastructure issues, like not being able to import oil anymore? run on withdrawals? take-the-money-and-run syndrome?) Does anybody seriously believe they understand how the collapse will play out?

So you try to money all over the place, so not only are you invested in multiple currencies from around the world (and stocks, and bonds, yada yada) but also brokerage firms and banks from around the world. The dollar goes under, taking the U.S. with it, and you'd be reasonably ok, only that with your U.S. passport, you're increasingly shut out of these opportunities.

I'm wondering now too, when do my banks here in Thailand say enough is enough, and tell me to take my business elsewhere?

And if you survey the landscape with regards to alternate residencies, it's pretty clear at least to me that the U.S. is working hard to shut these opportunities down. When you go shopping for new countries, be sure to find recent information. There's a lot of old web pages out there that paint rosy pictures that aren't the case anymore. The situation with regards to residency and citizenship is changing rapidly, and not for the better. The result of pressure from the U.S.? Of course.

But really, this latest move is no more or less egregious than any of the other moves they've made. As expats, we have no constituency in Washington. They do these things and each time they do, we all say to ourselves, that's ok, that doesn't affect me, even though we can plainly see it sets the stage for further abuse of our liberty. What's the son of FBAR going to look like? What other double jeopardy laws are they going to put in place? Are we even going to be allowed to trade in currencies or have foreign investments in the future?

[Naam]

If you are thinking of getting out of Dodge you best hurry.

US Senators Charles Schumer and Bob Casey to restrict the right of Americans to renounce citizenship – a populist reaction to Facebook co-founder Eduardo Savarin renouncing his US citizenship, saving him millions of dollatrs in US taxes.

The two Senators call Saverin’s renunciation “an outrage” and describe a plan to tax expatriates even after they renounce citizenship, that would also bar such individuals from re-entering the USA.

The bill is to be called the “Ex-PATRIOT” Act, which stands for the “Expatriation Prevention by Abolishing Tax-Related Incentives for Offshore Tenancy” Act – whatever that is supposed to mean.

Q BYTES – 19 May 2012 – HOW WILL YOUR OFFSHORE BANK WEATHER THE STORM?

Schumer and Casey are pathetic clowns. a former American citizen has a zillion ways to spread his assets without any restrictions, not to mention the fact that the IRS is not in a position to collect any taxes from a non-US citizen living in a non-US jurisdiction.

[smiling mantis]

Yes, but what happens with clowns is that when they shoot to hit those guys over there they invariably end up hitting us guys over here.

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

If you are thinking of getting out of Dodge you best hurry.

US Senators Charles Schumer and Bob Casey to restrict the right of Americans to renounce citizenship – a populist reaction to Facebook co-founder Eduardo Savarin renouncing his US citizenship, saving him millions of dollatrs in US taxes.

The two Senators call Saverin’s renunciation “an outrage” and describe a plan to tax expatriates even after they renounce citizenship, that would also bar such individuals from re-entering the USA.

The bill is to be called the “Ex-PATRIOT” Act, which stands for the “Expatriation Prevention by Abolishing Tax-Related Incentives for Offshore Tenancy” Act – whatever that is supposed to mean.

Q BYTES – 19 May 2012 – HOW WILL YOUR OFFSHORE BANK WEATHER THE STORM?

Schumer and Casey are pathetic clowns. a former American citizen has a zillion ways to spread his assets without any restrictions, not to mention the fact that the IRS is not in a position to collect any taxes from a non-US citizen living in a non-US jurisdiction.

The problem being all the politicians are clowns and only looking out for themselfs and their lobbyist. I never would have thought that FATCA would be passed either and imposing reporting on foreign banks was laughable. Now they are doing it. Should add that it dosen't bother me as I don't have the kind of money it takes to be in the category thay are after.

Went into the credit union we bank with and tried to deposit a Australian check into our account. Sorry we are not allowed to accept foreign checks anymore they are to much work. The check was from a bank so there should not have been any question about it. And Costco will not accept foreign visa cards. If you deposit a large amount of cash in your bank account they ask where you got it and are required to report it to the IRS if it looks suspicious. Land of the free.

[Naam]

Yes, but what happens with clowns is that when they shoot to hit those guys over there they invariably end up hitting us guys over here.

it has indeed become a problem to be a U.S. citizen living abroad, wanting to handle his/her investment abroad even though he/she has no intention to cheat the IRS out of a single penny. unfortunately it's the little guys who are bearing the brunt. those who are loaded can still escape the trap.

[yoshiwara]

The reason I want another passport isn't to avoid taxes. It's to distribute my assets so that I'm protected from a single point of failure.

Consider, you enter the Forex market, and invest in currencies. The dollar goes tits up, like we all know it will. You're protected? How, if your investment is made via a U.S. brokerage firm, and the dollar going in the toilet puts them out of business (infrastructure issues, like not being able to import oil anymore? run on withdrawals? take-the-money-and-run syndrome?) Does anybody seriously believe they understand how the collapse will play out?

So you try to money all over the place, so not only are you invested in multiple currencies from around the world (and stocks, and bonds, yada yada) but also brokerage firms and banks from around the world. The dollar goes under, taking the U.S. with it, and you'd be reasonably ok, only that with your U.S. passport, you're increasingly shut out of these opportunities.

I'm wondering now too, when do my banks here in Thailand say enough is enough, and tell me to take my business elsewhere?

And if you survey the landscape with regards to alternate residencies, it's pretty clear at least to me that the U.S. is working hard to shut these opportunities down. When you go shopping for new countries, be sure to find recent information. There's a lot of old web pages out there that paint rosy pictures that aren't the case anymore. The situation with regards to residency and citizenship is changing rapidly, and not for the better. The result of pressure from the U.S.? Of course.

But really, this latest move is no more or less egregious than any of the other moves they've made. As expats, we have no constituency in Washington. They do these things and each time they do, we all say to ourselves, that's ok, that doesn't affect me, even though we can plainly see it sets the stage for further abuse of our liberty. What's the son of FBAR going to look like? What other double jeopardy laws are they going to put in place? Are we even going to be allowed to trade in currencies or have foreign investments in the future?

The job of the US government is not to assist you in spreading your risk around to hedge against possible US financial failure. That much is evident. If your financial objectives take priority over your US citizenship, then put in motion the necessary procedures to relinquish your citizenship. Or just moan.

[manarak]

If you are thinking of getting out of Dodge you best hurry.

US Senators Charles Schumer and Bob Casey to restrict the right of Americans to renounce citizenship – a populist reaction to Facebook co-founder Eduardo Savarin renouncing his US citizenship, saving him millions of dollatrs in US taxes.

The two Senators call Saverin’s renunciation “an outrage” and describe a plan to tax expatriates even after they renounce citizenship, that would also bar such individuals from re-entering the USA.

The bill is to be called the “Ex-PATRIOT” Act, which stands for the “Expatriation Prevention by Abolishing Tax-Related Incentives for Offshore Tenancy” Act – whatever that is supposed to mean.

Q BYTES – 19 May 2012 – HOW WILL YOUR OFFSHORE BANK WEATHER THE STORM?

Yes, but what happens with clowns is that when they shoot to hit those guys over there they invariably end up hitting us guys over here.

it has indeed become a problem to be a U.S. citizen living abroad, wanting to handle his/her investment abroad even though he/she has no intention to cheat the IRS out of a single penny. unfortunately it's the little guys who are bearing the brunt. those who are loaded can still escape the trap.

Luckily, getting hold of any other passport will do the trick.

[smiling mantis]

The reason I want another passport isn't to avoid taxes. It's to distribute my assets so that I'm protected from a single point of failure.

Consider, you enter the Forex market, and invest in currencies. The dollar goes tits up, like we all know it will. You're protected? How, if your investment is made via a U.S. brokerage firm, and the dollar going in the toilet puts them out of business (infrastructure issues, like not being able to import oil anymore? run on withdrawals? take-the-money-and-run syndrome?) Does anybody seriously believe they understand how the collapse will play out?

So you try to money all over the place, so not only are you invested in multiple currencies from around the world (and stocks, and bonds, yada yada) but also brokerage firms and banks from around the world. The dollar goes under, taking the U.S. with it, and you'd be reasonably ok, only that with your U.S. passport, you're increasingly shut out of these opportunities.

I'm wondering now too, when do my banks here in Thailand say enough is enough, and tell me to take my business elsewhere?

And if you survey the landscape with regards to alternate residencies, it's pretty clear at least to me that the U.S. is working hard to shut these opportunities down. When you go shopping for new countries, be sure to find recent information. There's a lot of old web pages out there that paint rosy pictures that aren't the case anymore. The situation with regards to residency and citizenship is changing rapidly, and not for the better. The result of pressure from the U.S.? Of course.

But really, this latest move is no more or less egregious than any of the other moves they've made. As expats, we have no constituency in Washington. They do these things and each time they do, we all say to ourselves, that's ok, that doesn't affect me, even though we can plainly see it sets the stage for further abuse of our liberty. What's the son of FBAR going to look like? What other double jeopardy laws are they going to put in place? Are we even going to be allowed to trade in currencies or have foreign investments in the future?

The job of the US government is not to assist you in spreading your risk around to hedge against possible US financial failure.

No one is asking them to assist in doing anything. Just get out of our way, that's all.

[NomadJoe]

But even then they are not home free as they must even then pay an exit tax... If your net worth is over 2 million USD

no American in his right mind will still have assets in the U.S. of A. at the time of his announcement "me no like IRS too mutt."

i'm going even further and claim that nobody in his right mind keeps assets in a jurisdiction which can be frozen or confiscated without involving a proper procedure in a court of law.

I think they mean you are liable if your global net assets are worth more 2million. Doesn't matter to the IRS what country your assets are in.

of course it does not matter because if you have some grey cells working the IRS knows <deleted> in what country/jurisdiction and in what way you hold your assets.

I know for a fact that the US recruits Thai bank staff and offers them payment for information on American accounts. We can assume they are doing this elsewhere. The IRS will know.

[flying]

This is something isn't it?

You may check out any time you like but you may never leave?

Then add to it the opposite laws they are trying right now to quietly pass....

Of course it is under the guise of the ever popular TERRORIST theme

Go look up S.1698 & H.R.3166 many videos etc. available

They want to strip you of your citizenship on any accusation of your being involved with terrorism.

Yet they know full well you cannot be a man without a country

So what it really strips is your rights to any council, representation or trial.

Nice

Edited May 22, 2012 by flying

[Naam]

I know for a fact that the US recruits Thai bank staff and offers them payment for information on American accounts. We can assume they are doing this elsewhere. The IRS will know.

it goes without saying that the IRS recruits Thai bank staff because it is well known fact that a huge number of high net worth Americans (most of them teachers) handle billions of their 'black money' through the sophisticated investment channels which Thai banks provide. nobody is interested in offshore companies and trusts kept in Hong Kong and Singpore banks because of the tedious procedures in these jurisdictions.

simple transactions such as transferring 500,000 dollars value of any foreign currency involve extensive paperwork and permissions by various HK or SG government authorities whereas the American client of a Thai bank phones his bank and issues the verbal instruction "you transfer ha loy pan dolla leo leo from my account to account xyz987" and gets the answer "khrapom!"

another setback as far as banking out of Thailand is concerned that withdrawing ten-thousand Singapore Dollars in cash from an account in a Singapore Bank requires the account holder to present his passport as well as a funny little booklet, notarising the photocopy of his passport with his signature, sign a few papers and then wait till the cashier counts bundles of small denominations and doles out the cash.

withdrawals from an account in Thailand are much simpler. walk to the cashier tell him your account number, sign a slip and take your 220k in a few notes in high denominations.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Naam

[bedouin1990]

The US is the only major nation to tax the earnings on its citizens working and residing in a foreign country (above a certain threshold amount). Now they require that all citizens report ANy deposits in a foreign bank above an aggregate of $ 10K. http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/26/offshore-bank-accounts-irs-ubs-fbars-personal-finance-robert-wood.html. This is the so-called FBAR.

Beginning next year or in 2014 (this is unclear at this time) banks in foreign countries will be pressured by the IRS to report deposits of US citizens. http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/../2011/11/fatca_a_ticking_time_bomb_for_the_economy.html. This is FATCA.

For a more detailed discussion see: http://www.aca.ch/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=457&Itemid=95#sdendnote6anc

Note that you will NOT be taxed for having a foreign account, only that you must report it, and that your bank must do likewise. There is a presumption that you are somehow suspicious for keeping money or having invetments overseas. The greatest fear is that many foreign banks will simply cease giving accounts to US citizens to avoid the paperwork drill and the threat of potential fines. One wonders why the Feds want all this information. Once again expat Americans are embarrassed by the political and governmental approach of trying to kill a mosquito with a shotgun.

But there is more. Under the Bank Secrecy Act, American banks must file a SAR ( Suspicious Activities Report) to the IRS on any individual who transports more than $ 10K out of the country. Or on individuals who transport it into the US. Here again, expats are brought under scrutiny.

You read above the furor over a former Facebook founder. A little known amendment to the National Transportation bill already passed in March of this year by the US Senate provided that the IRS may demand the State Department revoke or refuse to issue passports to citizens who the Tax boys claim owes more than 50K in back income taxes. This may affect some expats who are living abroad because they cannot afford to pay their taxes from times past.

It concerns this writer that, if these trends continue, expartriation will someday be disallowed or prohibitively difficult. In a government headed slowly toward insolvency, the pols are digging for all the data and money they can find.

[Naam]

But there is more. Under the Bank Secrecy Act, American banks must file a SAR ( Suspicious Activities Report) to the IRS on any individual who transports more than $ 10K out of the country. Or on individuals who transport it into the US. Here again, expats are brought under scrutiny.

nothing new! that procedure was already carried out in the last millenium0

[Dondon]

I wish it was so Easton cast off the bonds of what once seemed so valuable. I will have my dual in 3 years via Italy and will decide to get rid of us then. Why US needs to be so vigilant on taking every penny I earn elsewhere is depressing. Not proud to be.....

Sent from my AT100 using Thaivisa Connect App

[ExpatJ]

Luckily i just got my kids British passports in addition to the US passports they initially had from being born in the US.

Its very sad that America has come to this.

Edited June 8, 2012 by ExpatJ

[yoshiwara]

Luckily i just got my kids British passports in addition to the US passports they initially had from being born in the US.

Its very sad that America has come to this.

They will look very nice in Red Coats.

[Soutpeel]

Luckily i just got my kids British passports in addition to the US passports they initially had from being born in the US.

Its very sad that America has come to this.

but surely this doesnt mean anything unless they actually give up the US PP's and not trying to be funny, but once reaching "taxable" age they will be bound to the rules of US citizens anyway if the US goverment "found out"

[ExpatJ]

Luckily i just got my kids British passports in addition to the US passports they initially had from being born in the US.

Its very sad that America has come to this.

but surely this doesnt mean anything unless they actually give up the US PP's and not trying to be funny, but once reaching "taxable" age they will be bound to the rules of US citizens anyway if the US goverment "found out"

Yes true- but if they do decide when they are older to make their lives outside of the US and develop investments outside of US then it makes it easier to give up their US passport as they will not have to marry or otherwise qualify for another countries nationality/passport since they already have a fallback passport. Right now a US citizen who wants to give up their passport has to have nationality/passport from elsewhere (normally through marriage).

[MrRealDeal]

The post about ex pats will be taxed at 30 percent forever bal bal bal ...... is nonsense and not what the law says at all

The SAR does not single out ex pats .... the law is about ALL transactions over 10K and is very old.

Yeah if America "goes under" all you investments elsewhere will be "reasonably ok" LOL ....... get real dude Some 2-3 countries with less GDP than half of California have been taking markets up and down for a year if theose reletively weenie countries collapes it would take down world markets ....... And you really think the collapse of America would leave everywhere else "reasonably ok" LOL ....... good luck with that

Edited June 8, 2012 by MrRealDeal

[Emdog]

Ok, I am an American, FYI. And I say "Stop you whining! Someone has to pay for all these wars we don't want, and it sure ain't gonna be corporations like Halliburton!"

Thinking about advantages that might have happened had we remained colonials:

1. Probably no World War One. Who'd be stupid enough to go up against that? which leads to.....

2. No World War Two

3. Soccer (as it is called there) would have been much more popular than it is (tho has seen decent growth) and the Kansas City Bum Whackers would have trounced Man City in a heart beat.

Other things might not have happened, like Russia going commie..... but then again, the world is overpopulated, and wars do dip into the available population growth pool.... Mixed blessing?

[ExpatJ]

Ok, I am an American, FYI. And I say "Stop you whining! Someone has to pay for all these wars we don't want, and it sure ain't gonna be corporations like Halliburton!"

Thinking about advantages that might have happened had we remained colonials:

1. Probably no World War One. Who'd be stupid enough to go up against that? which leads to.....

2. No World War Two

3. Soccer (as it is called there) would have been much more popular than it is (tho has seen decent growth) and the Kansas City Bum Whackers would have trounced Man City in a heart beat.

Other things might not have happened, like Russia going commie..... but then again, the world is overpopulated, and wars do dip into the available population growth pool.... Mixed blessing?

Actually, surprisingly interesting and good analysis.