Alternatives To Thailand?

[jamman]

I'm about to move to Bali, but am wondering if there isn't a better option.

I hear that Prague is a relatively inexpensive city. Buenos Aires is said to now be one of the least expensive. I've heard people on this forum say good things about Goa and other places in India.

What places can readers recommend to live in? I make my money on the internet now, in U.S. dollars, and cost of living is an important factor, but so is culture and lifestyle. Asia has been great in that it is so easy to date, but I don't feel I fit in enough to be socially happy, generally.

[Neeranam]

For myself, living in Thailand has nothing to do with money, apart from being able to work easily here.

My first choice years ago was India but I couldn't find work there. India is great for many things. There is a thread about India http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=31835&hl=india

Goa used to be great, but too touristy now -Kerrala farther South would be better now. My favourite place was in Himachal Pradesh, very cheap to stay - I spent about £2000 in 6 months there 14 years ago, staying in pretty good hotels and doing a lot of travelling.

I heard that Prague is not so cheap anymore.

[craigt3365]

I am also considering Bali. Was there 6 months ago and loved it. Roads and traffic are a bit crazy, but that is typical in Asia. I have a friend who is renting a place in Ubud quite cheaply. Great food there also.

I plan to visit Argentina in the next 9 months or so. Ecuador is pretty nice, but still can't compare to LOS, IMHO. Cheap living though.

I would love to hear what others think!

[OldAsiaHand]

I am also considering Bali.  Was there 6 months ago and loved it.  Roads and traffic are a bit crazy, but that is typical in Asia.  I have a friend who is renting a place in Ubud quite cheaply.  Great food there also.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I go to Ubud quite a lot and really love it. Some of the hotels around Ubud are among the most expensive in the world, but I also know a couple of people who rent houses there at prices so low that I wouldn't believe it if I didn't know them well. I'm not sure I understand why residential rents are so low there, but apparently they are.

[OldAsiaHand]

Forgot to mention one major drawback. Internet connectivity in the Ubud area is absolutely awful. All that was available as of three or four months ago as far as I know was a dial-up connection running at an extremely slow speed. I can retrieve email most of the time, but only barely and without attachments.

[srisatch]

I hope this thread runs...&..runs!!

Because it really raises the questions about how we came to be here, why we stay and where we might go else!

I have a Thai wife and we have children together, so to some extent I made my choices....though we have been to several other places to see if it might be better than LOS.

I think it is critical whether you are on your own, in transit, have a g/f or b/fdream or whatever! As well as the $$/££ thing!

If you have a partner I think language is critical...to live somewhere where neither of you speak the language is 'probably' better, I am told than to go somewhere where only one of you is fluent...we had this problem in Frane and Spain

Again, with a Thai partner, Indonesia is a problem as they will all think she is 'local' and 'bad'.!!

So, I would not go to

a. Arab/Islamic countries..after all I am not!! ..though I think Turkey might be good if you were a gambler!

b. Anywhere in Europe other than Spain, Greece or Ireland...mainly temperature and culture.

c. S. or N America..Why?

d. Japan..£££

e. Anywhere in SE Asia other than LOS

f. Africa, period. I am not Paul Theroux into young Kenyan maidens

I have lived and worked now, well I am OLD!, in LOS, Malaysia, Singapore, Bali, Philippines, Japan, France, Spain, Austria, Greece, UK, US, Ireland, Mexico, S.Africa and China...But I have chosen to live in LOS because at the end of the day it is simply more pleasant...though as my children grow up and need GOOD schools I may well have to revise that.

I think if I was now, again, on my own I would probably go to China-maybe Yunnan or if I had work Shanghai...of all the girls I have met, with the exception of my wife..and after all she is half Chinese...I would, if trying again!!, try and find a Chinese g/f

Bali and Ubud are lovely...but what you going to DO?? I am presuming you are young!! By all means have fun there...but THEN??

Good Luck!!

[jamman]

I’m here in Bali, and it’s such a positive difference from Cebu in the Philippines that it’s a relief to the soul. The environment here is beautiful and not aggressively annoying and painful, as it so often can be in Cebu.

I didn’t travel much in the Phils, so I can only speak for Cebu City and Moalboal. Cebu City has thrown away so much quality of life by not regulating the decibel level allowed for automobile horns. The horns are as loud as firecrackers – it is painful on the ears. Certain to cause hearing loss. And the drivers use horns for no reason. As they pass you while you are safely on the edge of the road, while they are right beside you, they will honk. Why? It feels as some sort of power trip – hey, I’m bigger than you – HONK! Cars will go through little neighbourhoods and BLAST out several honks, for no reason at all, and it goes right through walls. I had to wear earplugs, even indoors. And the kids are often lighting off very big firecrackers – the kind that you can feel in your chest as well as your ears. So the noise, but then also the Jeepneys are diesel, and in the daytime the car headlights will stream though a thick soup of exhaust - it stings the eyes and makes breathing uncomfortable instead of a joy. And most of the building aren’t pretty, and there isn’t much landscaping. Cebu city feels oppressive to me after a while. There is a lot of what looks like and is desparate poverty there also, and all the ills that go with desparate poverty gettho living. Kids crying for lack of food, children too poor to go to school, incest and beatings and drunkenness and drug over use and pussy more accessible than it really should be. The up-side though is people are really friendly and accessible, everyone speaks at least some English, and pussy is more accessible than it really should be. It’s easy to meet and become a part of a group, and the people are fun loving and very sociable. A neighbourhood clan might get together in a field and disco down into small hours. People always seem up for a little fun. It is a Catholic country, but it feels more loose than tight. It is not a rigid culture.

I’ve been coming to Bali since 95, with my last visit being for 1 year 3 years ago. Kuta is still changing fast! It looks great. I had always hoped that the two stroke motorcycles and diesel autos would eventually get replaced by newer 4 stroke gas vehicles, and it has been happening. The air quality is improving. And thank heavens no aggressive and excessively loud honking! What a difference that makes!

Bali has such a strong focus on aesthetics – many call it the most beautiful place they have been to. It’s not just the magnificent terraced rice fields or the fancy and funky shops, even a little house poking out of a crouded city street is likely to have a cool 3-D wall mural and attractive and comfortable covered outdoor living room. People pay attention to their surroundings, and not just with trimmed green lawn, but with flair. A lot of arfully placed flowering plants, a lot of sculpture, ponds, trees, it makes a big difference to the state of mind. Many of the apartments are located in private gardened and tree shaded compounds, with an alsmost mini-village feel to them. What a difference and I’m so glad I’m here instead of in Cebu City.

The last time I was here I was before I had tried dating around in Thailand, before I saw just how incredibly easy it is to date any number of people you want in the Philippines (although I chose monogamy that year). Now I suspect that doors are also becoming quite open here in Bali for dating. It may even be a bit too easy having white skin here, but I won’t look a gift horse the wrong way.

Plenty of restaurants and clubs, the prices seem just fine. I’ll report more exactly later, but off the top of my head it seemed a good fish dinner can be had for about 2 bucks, and beer will be somewhere around 75 cents in a touristy restaurant, and 50 cents at the store. Give or take 20 cents or something. Although it’s more developed and touristy, the prices are in line with the larger region.

The big downside of Kuta has always been the aggressive street and beach touts. They are still here and aggressive, but it seems better than 3 years ago. Perhaps the locals don’t’ tolerate the touts who come from Muslim Java as much, after some radical Muslims devastated their economy again with another bombing. It still does lower the quality of living – a lot – to be harassed while walking down a pleasant street by people who seem to have no respect for you as a person whatsoever and see you as an ATM to be shaken and shaken until money drops out. I could stay relaxed after someone asks me if I want a taxi and I say no, but going on and on and on is just a kind of torture. Of course it’s going to get to you after a while. “Taxi?” I just smile and don’t make eye contact and wave my left hand no as agnowledgment. I don’t look all touristy and green and open to their social manipulation. That might work – that’s the best strategy, I think. But some are stuck in a rut – even if you are holding your motorcycle keys in your hand and walking to your bike they’ll ask if you want a taxi. “Girl? Marijuana? Where you go? Hey boss! Boss!” They’ll often try to block your path, and will walk all the way across the street to do it. Saying no won’t stop some of them. Even 5 times no, because they are hunting and you are the prey they try to outsmart. It’s not a good form of social interaction, I really don’t like that game at all, it seems way too disrespectful.

Internet access seems a tad better. At this café in the busy Legian street I’m paying about 50 cents an hour, and the connection is usable. It’s not DSL speed, but it functions.

Comparing Kuta to Chiang Mai, the air quality is better here, the tourist infrastructure is way more built up with restaurants and shops and clubs everywhere, there is beach bounding the island, and the culture seems less closed off. There is no nearby forest, unfortunately, but there are many public little and large gardens and hideaways. I could easily step off of a busy mainstreet to practice Thai-Chi in a beautiful spot. The Balinese still have a very strong sense of communal property, and Warungs are everywhere. Many of the big hotels have heavenly landscaped acreage – I couldn’t imagine more beauty.

So it’s good to be back. It was also good to be gone. I’m glad for what I learned in Thailand about dating, glad about what I learned in the Philippines about living in a ghetto among poor ghetto folk and living in a touristy little brothel and diving town, and about devoted monogamy, and glad to come back here with new ways of looking at the place.

Come on folks, tell me your stories! Tell of your places, favorite places, hated places.

Edited December 26, 2005 by jamman

[jamman]

Bali and Ubud are lovely...but what you going to DO?? I am presuming you are young!! By all means have fun there...but THEN??

Good Luck!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I love hearing of your wide travels and insights. More!

As for what I will do, I hope to get more involved in the community this time, partly through teaching or participating in chi-kung and meditation workshops. Perhaps I'll offer some energetic healing or teach that also, along with a group of similarly minded folks. There is a small community of people here already with those interests and offering them. I also want to build simple raft houseboats and rent them. I think that both the ex-pat and local community could support both enterprises.

[flupke]

love this topic, some great posts here ,

i ' ve been to Goa -Kerala , Java-Bali and in a few weeks heading back to north thailand for longer time and visit Bali again( and probably Flores ) around april when it starts getting to hot here

Jamman did a good description of the too agressive and disrespectfull taxi drivers and beach sellers but this mainly exists in south Bali -Kuta-Legian

don ' t let this frighten you , lot ' s of other places to go , but at the moment no good business :

Bali Expat Forum : Not a Good Christmas Season in Bali, for 2005

like in whole Indonesia , behind the smile you see suffering and sadness because all the problems

about :

-economic crisis

- Fuel double in cost

- bomb attacks

- not enough tourists for many years already now

try to mix wth local-normal living and you will find what is Bali like :

not to compared with anything else

just like North-Thailand , South- India , friendly people but different , not easy to describe and i don ' t want to generalise

sure there is no big language barriere ( like in Thai )wich makes communication a lot easier :

a lot of ceremonies and religion activity wich cost a lot of money and is therefore automatically connected with status( my point of view)

This is Indonesia : visa will cost you about 1200 $ minimum per year and no guarantees long term ( Thailand is great compared )

about South India : Goa is great if you avoid december-januari

i found the South-Indian people the most laid back and i like the wobling of the head , really funny , only problem is : it stays a male culture

ps Jamman : what are you talking about other places like Prague ???

you are already addicted to Bali didn ' t you know ?

[sabaijai]

Neither Prague nor Buenos Aires are anywhere near as cheap as Thailand, travel- and living-wise. For US-dollar-holders BA was cheap for nearly a year after the devaluation there, but rampant inflation has caught up. Prague hasn't been a bargain for years now.

Dali, China, is relatively inexpensive and a nice place as well.

[penzman]

Costa Rica and Panamaa are very nice and cheap although many parts aren't safe.

[godinho]

One of the best places to be an expat is certainly Bali.

baliblog

Try this site out.

[numpty]

i've been in jakarta for the best part of three years.

it s ok, i like it ... it takes a bit of gettin to know but it s a grower if it s charms appear somewhat hidden just keep diggin

mind you a toss up between bangkok and jakarta

[britmaveric]

Prague (Praha) is very cheap. However Euro isn't too far off, so this will ruin things there.

[sabaijai]

Costa Rica and Panamaa are very nice and cheap although many parts aren't  safe.

Both countries are more expensive than Thailand, Costa Rica esp so.

[jrincon17]

Costa Rica and Panamaa are very nice and cheap although many parts aren't  safe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both countries are more expensive than Thailand, Costa Rica esp so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that the philippines is pretty cheap . I stayed in boracay , property is expensive . small island but you can live on aklan . i truly enjoyed it , i think that women are more passive , booze is cheaper there also , food is about the same as thailand .

[johnnyk]

OP seems a bit confused as to what he wants.

Does he want tropical, beach and cheap? OK, SEA

Does he want cold, expensive cultural city? OK, Prague

Does he want cosmopolitan, sophisticated & cheap? OK, BA

Much easier to zero in if you think about what you want.

Otherwise get a blindfold, a dartboard and some darts.

[jamman]

OP seems a bit confused as to what he wants.

Does he want tropical, beach and cheap? OK, SEA

Does he want cold, expensive cultural city? OK, Prague

Does he want cosmopolitan, sophisticated & cheap? OK, BA

Much easier to zero in if you think about what you want.

Otherwise get a blindfold, a dartboard and some darts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cosmopolitan, sophisticated & cheap sounds just perfect. I'm getting conflicting reports on how cheap Buenes Aires is. The 2005 report of the most/least expensive cities by some company or other said that BA is close to the least expensive now. A poster here mentioned that currency fluctuations have already changed that. If anyone can mention more about the place and current prices, I'd be very interested to know.

Bali continues be be a relief to return to. I know I'll eventually also have more culture clashes, but overall it seems good. Bali has great selection of anything at very good prices, good scenery, and plenty of what a man needs. The cosmopolitan sophistication will be a bit harder to dig out.

[sabaijai]

OP seems a bit confused as to what he wants.

Does he want tropical, beach and cheap? OK, SEA

Does he want cold, expensive cultural city? OK, Prague

Does he want cosmopolitan, sophisticated & cheap? OK, BA

Much easier to zero in if you think about what you want.

Otherwise get a blindfold, a dartboard and some darts.

Cosmopolitan, sophisticated & cheap sounds just perfect. I'm getting conflicting reports on how cheap Buenes Aires is. The 2005 report of the most/least expensive cities by some company or other said that BA is close to the least expensive now. A poster here mentioned that currency fluctuations have already changed that. If anyone can mention more about the place and current prices, I'd be very interested to know.

Bali continues be be a relief to return to. I know I'll eventually also have more culture clashes, but overall it seems good. Bali has great selection of anything at very good prices, good scenery, and plenty of what a man needs. The cosmopolitan sophistication will be a bit harder to dig out.

I was in BA last year and believe me, it ain't cheap. At least double the cost of living and travel in Thailand or the Philippines, and that's if you're very cautious with your money, otherwise easily triple.

Dali, China ....

[sabaijai]

Of course a lot depends on the base currency of your source of income. Assuming that base is USD, GBP or euros, then one easy way to figure out the relative cost of living in a country is to look at the raw per-capita GNP and the PPP-adjusted (purchasing power parity) GNP figures side by side.

A country where the PPP-adjusted GNP is relatively high compared to the raw GNP is usually a relatively inexpensive country for hard currency owners. A country where the raw GNP is higher than PPP is to be avoided, if you're counting pennies.

Here's an example. A few years ago (I haven't checked lately, so don't take these figs as current) Mexico and Thailand had roughly the same raw per-capita GNP (take US$2000 as an example). Adjusted for purchasing power parity, however, Thailand's per-capita GNP was about double Mexico's PPP-adjusted GNP (US$6000 vs US$3000). The upshot is/was that you were able to buy more for your money in Thailand than in Mexico, relatively speaking.

Asiaweek magazine used to be a quick reference for such figures, too bad it's defunct.

This website breaks it down by region.

http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/english/mo...np/datanot.html

The numbers aren't all that up to date unfortunately.

[sonthaya]

What has all this to do with Thailand ??

[craigt3365]

Great post, JAMMAN! I spent about a month in the Philippines. I was not that impressed. Yes, some nice beaches, but the rest was not that great.

I do love Thailand. And have visited almost every part. BUT, I was blown away with Bali. Incredibly beautiful, romantic, cheap. Ubud's hotels can be as expensive, or as cheap, as you want. And from what I have heard, rentals are the same. I stayed in a hotel that was incredible, for $120 a night. And also had a nice room for $25 (ok, no view of the valley or the mountains!).

My wife is Thai, and she really, really, really wants to live in Bali. I was not happy in Kuta/Legian. The hassle factor was horrible. And she was hassled all the time. Many of the men over there are pretty bad.

I am visiting Malaysia for a few months this next year. I have heard it is nice also. Anybody have any experience living there? Just curious...

I spent 2 months in China, including Dali. Not sure I could handle China. The spitting drives me crazy. As does the pushing, shoving, and general rudeness of many people there. But, some beautiful countryside!

[johnnyk]

For purchasing power parity its always useful to check The Economist Big Mac index. Kind of tongue (all beef) in cheek but some truth in it.

Sabaijai hits the nail, it all depends on your base currency.

Thailand ain't necessarily cheap for Thais in Isaan etc etc.

Lots of places in Indonesia not yet over-run by Lonely Planet or Frommer's that are quite fine cost vs. quality.

Malaysia, I unnastan, is a fair bit more spensive than Thailand.

Laos is dead cheap and, most elusive of all, charming.

[qualtrough]

Must disagree heartily with the poster who said the food in the Philippines is the same as Thailand. For the most part it is horrible-mostly very bland, composed of offal or worse, fried in oil, just ugh. Sanitary conditions of restaurants/stalls much worse than Thailand too. And don't get me started about the rice. Too late-Thais wouldn't feed their dogs the rice they eat in the Philippines (seriously), and the way it is served it often has the consistency of mashed potatoes. I am sorry if I am offending any Filipino readers. You couldn't ask for nicer people-but the food-sorry! There are other reasons I much prefer Thailand over the Philippines, but if the food is no good what else matters? OK-Adobe is pretty good, and Bacolod chicken...

[jamman]

Must disagree heartily with the poster who said the food in the Philippines is the same as Thailand. For the most part it is horrible-mostly very bland, composed of offal or worse, fried in oil, just ugh. Sanitary conditions of restaurants/stalls much worse than Thailand too. And don't get me started about the rice. Too late-Thais wouldn't feed their dogs the rice they eat in the Philippines (seriously), and the way it is served it often has the consistency of mashed potatoes. I am sorry if I am offending any Filipino readers. You couldn't ask for nicer people-but the food-sorry! There are other reasons I much prefer Thailand over the Philippines, but if the food is no good what else matters? OK-Adobe is pretty good, and Bacolod chicken...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right - the food sucks. They don't have Thai style sticky rice, some vegatables are pricey, and supermarket selection is limited. I'm not a picky eater, but the food in the Philippines is famous for its suckage. There are some decent restaurants, but you can't get much good food off the street like you can in Thailand. I did become fond of dugu-dugu though - pork blood soup.

Only in Thailand can you walk out your apartment and pay 15 baht for a healthy bag of Pad Thai right on the street, and get your fresh juices and peeled fruits for a similar small amount. I wish I could find an Amazing Sandwhich type shop here in the Kuta area. Thailand wins for food, and Malaysia and Singapore are great too. Bali's not bad at all.

[LaoPo]

I'm about to move to Bali, but am wondering if there isn't a better option.

I hear that Prague is a relatively inexpensive city.  Buenos Aires is said to now be one of the least expensive.  I've heard people on this forum say good things about Goa and other places in India.

What places can readers recommend to live in?  I make my money on the internet now, in U.S. dollars, and cost of living is an important factor, but so is culture and lifestyle.  Asia has been great in that it is so easy to date, but I don't feel I fit in enough to be socially happy, generally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but it's a bit of an odd question. Nobody can compare Bali with Thailand, Prague or Buenos Aires or, let's say, Moscow.

It's also not about expensive or not...

It's WHERE YOUR HEART IS, WHERE YOUR LOVE IS and WHERE YOU FEEL HAPPY AND COMFORTABLE.

I've been around in the world but apart from my homecountry, my HEART is in Thailand despite the negative comments here and there.

Bali, however, is no doubt much more spectacular beautiful (especially the interior of the island) than most islands of Thailand.

BUT, in my humble opninion, it's all about your OWN feeling...

Best of luck to you anyway.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

LaoPo

[billrussell]

You might want to consider your personal safety. I understand that in parts of Buenos Aires, the crime is terrible, poverty is rampant and the quality of life is not good.

I have decided to move to Thailand at the end this month for good. After visiting many times, it seems to be the best place for me.

I rejected Bali as a place to live, simply because it is a Muslim country. Maybe I am prejudiced, but Thailand seems so much more peaceful with most of the people Buddhist.

Maybe meeting a beautiful Thai lady also had a influence on me.

Edited January 1, 2006 by billrussell

[qualtrough]

Bali is a Muslim country? First, Bali is not a country, and second, it is primarily Hindu. Figures I have seen are that it has less than 5% Muslim population, with more than 90% following Balinese Hindu tranditions. You might want to re-check your other research facts before moving to Thailand just in case.

[qualtrough]

I don't mean to pick on you, and I like Thailand too, but the Thais, although primarily Buddhist, do not rank very high in the peaceful category compared to many parts of the world. Thailand has a higher murder rate than the US, which is already near the top of most lists. Violent crimes are very common. Pick up the daily papers and scan the front pages to see what I am talking about. As a foreigner you are not in much danger, true, but peaceful-not really.

[Spit the Dog]

Must disagree heartily with the poster who said the food in the Philippines is the same as Thailand. For the most part it is horrible-mostly very bland, composed of offal or worse, fried in oil, just ugh. Sanitary conditions of restaurants/stalls much worse than Thailand too. And don't get me started about the rice. Too late-Thais wouldn't feed their dogs the rice they eat in the Philippines (seriously), and the way it is served it often has the consistency of mashed potatoes. I am sorry if I am offending any Filipino readers. You couldn't ask for nicer people-but the food-sorry! There are other reasons I much prefer Thailand over the Philippines, but if the food is no good what else matters? OK-Adobe is pretty good, and Bacolod chicken...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally agree. Thai food can be sweet, spicy, sour, bitter or salty. Filipino food just tastes bland.

Even the western style of cooked food in the Phillipines is awful.

Don't get me wrong, the Phillipines does have many wonderful things going for it. It's just a pity food isn't one of them.