'Harassed' Airport Red Shirts Pressure Pheu Thai For Help

[Unkomoncents]

There have been issues with the parking lot concession at Swampy since before it was open. Does anyone remember this:

http://www.nationmul...l_18113079.html

A Thai businessman claimed that a sister of PM Thaksin demanded a bribe of 48 million baht to give him the Suvarnarnabhumi parking concession & then gave it to someone else!

I remember that story, and it came to mind when this thread started. The version I recall is that he said he handed the money over to Thaksin's wife. Gotta love the Nation version of the story, she is referred to as a " relative"... :-)

Just to clarify, I did find the thread and it wasn't the wife.

It was a sister that was embroiled in the bribery at the airport scandal.

It was the lesser known and less public Yaowaret Shinawatra:

Thaksin's Sister Accused Of Kickbacks

http://www.thaivisa....ks/#entry411444

Nittinun Keskosin, managing director of Rush Fur Thai Co Ltd, who talks about how his company was promised the contract if he paid 25 million baht to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's sister Yaowaret.

"Mrs Yaowaret and a politician demanded 300 million baht in `commission' to secure a 25-year parking service contract for the new Suvarnabhumi airport.

"They promised future assistance for the company to win a furniture contract worth more than one billion baht,"' Mr Nittinun says.

Mr Nittinun said he had paid 25 million baht to the pair in two installments; five million in August 2003 and 20 million in September of the same year; and had promised to pay the remaining 275, once his business won the contract.

.================

This parking lot at the airport issue has its beginnings an astounding nine years back.

.

Born rich and da*m stupid. Is this really Thaksin's sister? Or is it his cousin? (I say "it" because corrupt insects don't deserve human pronouns).

[KireB]

Didn't she give a speech during a Red Rally? I recall her talking about the poor Phrai and those evil rich Amart in Bangkok!

[whybother]

Do I understand correctly that a bunch of redshirts with no connection to a legally registered company and none to the airport, think the government - which should be asking the police why they haven't arrested them - should instruct the airport authorities to facilitate their collecting protection money from car park users?

Or have I missed something in the translation?

Google "Armed paramilitary takeover of Bangkok's international airport parking" to find a BP article on the concession problem in 2010.

[OzMick]

The article is so slim on facts, what is there to denounce?

One could possibly go through the exercise of "if this, ... & if this is true, ... then, ..."

But that would just be speculation.

One doesn't need to be a Thaksin apologist, nor an Abhisit apologist, nor a TVF apologist to denounce something that is wrong... On the other hand, facts are helpful.

A group of red shirts collect parking fees at the airport, and are complaining of harassment from the police and airport security. Those are established facts, easily checked - just drive out there.

This has lead to speculation as to how and why this group had been granted a concession valued at millions of baht apparently without going through a tender process. This would be a corrupt practice, strongly suspected of being a pay-off for Thaksin's murderous mercenaries via the public purse (again). If you have an information, to the contrary or otherwise, please contribute.

I would even be interested in your speculation as how a person facing terrorism charges is granted such a concession, or becomes an MP.

[EyesWideOpen]

There have been issues with the parking lot concession at Swampy since before it was open. Does anyone remember this:

http://www.nationmul...l_18113079.html

A Thai businessman claimed that a sister of PM Thaksin demanded a bribe of 48 million baht to give him the Suvarnarnabhumi parking concession & then gave it to someone else!

I remember that story, and it came to mind when this thread started. The version I recall is that he said he handed the money over to Thaksin's wife. Gotta love the Nation version of the story, she is referred to as a " relative"... :-)

Just to clarify, I did find the thread and it wasn't the wife.

It was a sister that was embroiled in the bribery at the airport scandal.

It was the lesser known and less public Yaowaret Shinawatra:

Thaksin's Sister Accused Of Kickbacks

http://www.thaivisa....ks/#entry411444

Nittinun Keskosin, managing director of Rush Fur Thai Co Ltd, who talks about how his company was promised the contract if he paid 25 million baht to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's sister Yaowaret.

"Mrs Yaowaret and a politician demanded 300 million baht in `commission' to secure a 25-year parking service contract for the new Suvarnabhumi airport.

"They promised future assistance for the company to win a furniture contract worth more than one billion baht,"' Mr Nittinun says.

Mr Nittinun said he had paid 25 million baht to the pair in two installments; five million in August 2003 and 20 million in September of the same year; and had promised to pay the remaining 275, once his business won the contract.

.================

This parking lot at the airport issue has its beginnings an astounding nine years back.

.

Thanks for the correction! :-) These corruption stories fade from the news so quickly it is hard to keep track of them....... I was always fascinated by this look at Thai business and government contracts. Either this story was not true, and he put his life at risk by telling it. Or........ it is true, leading inquiring minds to want to know why she was collecting a sack with 25 million baht in it, and did she deserve it.

[OzMick]

There have been issues with the parking lot concession at Swampy since before it was open. Does anyone remember this:

http://www.nationmul...l_18113079.html

A Thai businessman claimed that a sister of PM Thaksin demanded a bribe of 48 million baht to give him the Suvarnarnabhumi parking concession & then gave it to someone else!

I remember that story, and it came to mind when this thread started. The version I recall is that he said he handed the money over to Thaksin's wife. Gotta love the Nation version of the story, she is referred to as a " relative"... :-)

Just to clarify, I did find the thread and it wasn't the wife.

It was a sister that was embroiled in the bribery at the airport scandal.

It was the lesser known and less public Yaowaret Shinawatra:

Thaksin's Sister Accused Of Kickbacks

http://www.thaivisa....ks/#entry411444

Nittinun Keskosin, managing director of Rush Fur Thai Co Ltd, who talks about how his company was promised the contract if he paid 25 million baht to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's sister Yaowaret.

"Mrs Yaowaret and a politician demanded 300 million baht in `commission' to secure a 25-year parking service contract for the new Suvarnabhumi airport.

"They promised future assistance for the company to win a furniture contract worth more than one billion baht,"' Mr Nittinun says.

Mr Nittinun said he had paid 25 million baht to the pair in two installments; five million in August 2003 and 20 million in September of the same year; and had promised to pay the remaining 275, once his business won the contract.

.================

This parking lot at the airport issue has its beginnings an astounding nine years back.

.

Though I supported the bloodless coup, I sometimes think (with 20/20 hindsight) that it wasted a perfectly good opportunity for vermin eradication.

[jeffcool]

"Today Pheu Thai is the government but why are the red shirts still getting arrested?"

Errr - because you are breaking the law???

Fair point but no reason enough for them......

I mean.... We lead by example...... And what leaders they have......

Time for my ear medicine again.....

[phiphidon]

Do I understand correctly that a bunch of redshirts with no connection to a legally registered company and none to the airport, think the government - which should be asking the police why they haven't arrested them - should instruct the airport authorities to facilitate their collecting protection money from car park users?

Or have I missed something in the translation?

Google "Armed paramilitary takeover of Bangkok's international airport parking" to find a BP article on the concession problem in 2010.

Which implicates the AOT, the BJP, Newin and members of the 1st Army (who were "the men in black"). Well that actual article may not but they were all involved at one stage or another. Abhisit did order a "transparent inquiry" which ended up with the BJP Transport Minister asking the AOT to investigate itself. As so often happens, nothing more is reported................

[55Jay]

I love this place !!!! I seem to recall some kind of pitched battle last year over the parking concession fees. First rule in Thailand is follow the money, which makes everything crystal clear. So apparently the parking fees are a lot of money......In a normal airport, there would be a concession granted, and that would be the end of the story. I do not remember any battles over parking fees at LAX airport.......But this appeal to the government adds a nice farcical touch.

Like if the jet ski mafia formed a lobbying group, and filed complaints against the police for trying to stop their scams.

No need to form a lobby group - just send an internal memorandum.

Edited May 1, 2012 by 55Jay

[whybother]

Do I understand correctly that a bunch of redshirts with no connection to a legally registered company and none to the airport, think the government - which should be asking the police why they haven't arrested them - should instruct the airport authorities to facilitate their collecting protection money from car park users?

Or have I missed something in the translation?

Google "Armed paramilitary takeover of Bangkok's international airport parking" to find a BP article on the concession problem in 2010.

Which implicates the AOT, the BJP, Newin and members of the 1st Army (who were "the men in black"). Well that actual article may not but they were all involved at one stage or another. Abhisit did order a "transparent inquiry" which ended up with the BJP Transport Minister asking the AOT to investigate itself. As so often happens, nothing more is reported................

Newin supporting red shirts and PTP MP?

[jeffcool]

You know what is so interesting is that every time there is a genuine negative red shirt story, the Thaksin-supporting-posters on this board remain strangely quiet. I wonder if these guys are .................. (continued on page 97)

probably because the people you are most likely referring to as "Thaksin-supporting-posters" just consider themselves normal people and leave the usual suspects, who hate everything red, to their typical rants.

For example, in this article, there is no clarification what-so-ever regarding the claims of those being arrested. But nearly every post here assumes that they are guilty ... as, of course, all red-shirts must be...

Getting your point, however:

"Today Pheu Thai is the government but why are the red shirts still getting arrested? Have they already forgotten the red shirts? We hope Pheu Thai will watch over us but if the government continues to work like this, we have to rethink the Pheu Thai Party,"

Does that entitled Red shirt to be above any arrest???

[EyesWideOpen]

I love this place !!!! I seem to recall some kind of pitched battle last year over the parking concession fees. First rule in Thailand is follow the money, which makes everything crystal clear. So apparently the parking fees are a lot of money......In a normal airport, there would be a concession granted, and that would be the end of the story. I do not remember any battles over parking fees at LAX airport.......But this appeal to the government adds a nice farcical touch.

Like if the jet ski mafia formed a lobbying group, and filed complaints against the police for trying to stop their scams.

No need to form a lobby group - just send an internal memorandum.

Nice one !!!!

[Thaddeus]

Do I understand correctly that a bunch of redshirts with no connection to a legally registered company and none to the airport, think the government - which should be asking the police why they haven't arrested them - should instruct the airport authorities to facilitate their collecting protection money from car park users?

Or have I missed something in the translation?

Google "Armed paramilitary takeover of Bangkok's international airport parking" to find a BP article on the concession problem in 2010.

Which implicates the AOT, the BJP, Newin and members of the 1st Army (who were "the men in black"). Well that actual article may not but they were all involved at one stage or another. Abhisit did order a "transparent inquiry" which ended up with the BJP Transport Minister asking the AOT to investigate itself. As so often happens, nothing more is reported................

Newin supporting red shirts and PTP MP?

Well, he has been known to switch sides..... but in this case, nah, he wouldn't shed a tear if they burst in to flames ..... (that was the polite version of he wouldn't ...... if they were on fire)

[waza]

There have been issues with the parking lot concession at Swampy since before it was open. Does anyone remember this:

http://www.nationmul...l_18113079.html

A Thai businessman claimed that a sister of PM Thaksin demanded a bribe of 48 million baht to give him the Suvarnarnabhumi parking concession & then gave it to someone else!

I remember that story, and it came to mind when this thread started. The version I recall is that he said he handed the money over to Thaksin's wife. Gotta love the Nation version of the story, she is referred to as a " relative"... :-)

Just to clarify, I did find the thread and it wasn't the wife.

It was a sister that was embroiled in the bribery at the airport scandal.

It was the lesser known and less public Yaowaret Shinawatra:

Thaksin's Sister Accused Of Kickbacks

http://www.thaivisa....ks/#entry411444

Nittinun Keskosin, managing director of Rush Fur Thai Co Ltd, who talks about how his company was promised the contract if he paid 25 million baht to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's sister Yaowaret.

"Mrs Yaowaret and a politician demanded 300 million baht in `commission' to secure a 25-year parking service contract for the new Suvarnabhumi airport.

"They promised future assistance for the company to win a furniture contract worth more than one billion baht,"' Mr Nittinun says.

Mr Nittinun said he had paid 25 million baht to the pair in two installments; five million in August 2003 and 20 million in September of the same year; and had promised to pay the remaining 275, once his business won the contract.

.================

This parking lot at the airport issue has its beginnings an astounding nine years back.

.

Thanks for the correction! :-) These corruption stories fade from the news so quickly it is hard to keep track of them....... I was always fascinated by this look at Thai business and government contracts. Either this story was not true, and he put his life at risk by telling it. Or........ it is true, leading inquiring minds to want to know why she was collecting a sack with 25 million baht in it, and did she deserve it.

Yaowaret Shinawatra, (the ugly sister)

President, the National Council of Women of Thailand under the Royal Patronage

Allegations of corruption during the development of Suvarnabhumi Airport, the new international airport serving Bangkok, Thailand, have been made since the project's inception. These allegations started in the 1970s, when the land for the airport was purchased during the dictatorship of Thanom Kittikachorn,^[1] and extended to the government of Thaksin Shinawatra, during which most of the construction occurred. To date, no Thai government, police, or auditor-general investigation has shown any corruption in the project..........The airport contains 2 5-storey car park buildings with a combined capacity of 5,000 cars.

Two videos were released in which car park contractor Latthapol Kesakotin, in one video, claimed that he paid USD $250 million to Yaowaret Shinawatra (the Prime Minister's sister) to gain a contract to build and operate the airport car park, and another video in which he claimed he didn't pay anything to Yaowaret. He later publicly denied that he paid anything to Yaowaret.^{[5]http://en.wikipedia....Airport_project}

Yaowaret Shinawatra, Thaksin's younger sister, in August filed criminal and civil lawsuits against the Thai-language daily Thai Post for a story on another construction contract at the airport http://cpj.org/2005/...journalists.php

How do you view this current case by your party deputy, Alongkorn Ponlabutr, accusing Thaksin’s sister, Yaowaret Shinawatra, of demanding a 300 million baht (US $7.5 million) bribe from a company to build a car park at the new Bangkok airport? Well, both sides are going to court, and they will each have to prove their case. It’s interesting to see the way the government has reacted to the revelations made by Alongkhorn. There has been no action, no words—only government MPs making political rebuttals, counter-allegations and so on. Abhisit Vejjajiva http://www2.irrawadd..._id=4903&page=3

Thaksin’s younger sister Yaowaret Shinawatra rejected suggestions Thaksin’s close family had left the country because they were concerned about possible consequences of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) mass protest. The family went abroad for business or holiday purposes and they would return to Thailand soon, Mrs Yaowaret said

They had no intention to flee the country, as the government suggested. Other members of the Shinawatra family were still in Thailand, she said

UDD leaders and their allies are soliciting donations to fund the protest which is set to begin nationwide tomorrow with a plan to assemble in Bangkok on Sunday. They have launched a donation campaign chaired by Yaowaret Shinawatra, a sister of fugitive former prime minister Thaksin, to raise money to pay for demonstrators' fuel costs..http://www.asiaviews.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19850:reportalias1025&catid=2:regional-news-a-special-reports&Itemid=9

Yaowaret Shinawatra, chairwoman of the National Women's Council and sister of the prime minister, also filed a similar suit against Alongkorn Polabutr, a Democrat MP and Thai Post newspaper, demanding 300 million baht in damages.

Lawsuits of this magnitude are unprecedented and caused quite a stir among journalists, who are confused as to where the fine line between defamation and criticism now stands. Meetings were called among editors and operators to discuss the new trend. Among the questions raised is whether the media still have the right to criticise people in the news, who are regarded as public figures. If this was still the case, why then were they sued for such enormous compensation? Do we still endorse a freedom of speech to criticise the performances and behaviours of these public figures? Some even view that such legal action is intended to be a threat to gag the media. http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=31213

[pimay11]

Yaowaret Shinawatra, (the ugly sister)

President, the National Council of Women of Thailand under the Royal Patronage

Allegations of corruption during the development of Suvarnabhumi Airport, the new international airport serving Bangkok, Thailand, have been made since the project's inception. These allegations started in the 1970s, when the land for the airport was purchased during the dictatorship of Thanom Kittikachorn,^[1] and extended to the government of Thaksin Shinawatra, during which most of the construction occurred. To date, no Thai government, police, or auditor-general investigation has shown any corruption in the project..........The airport contains 2 5-storey car park buildings with a combined capacity of 5,000 cars.

Two videos were released in which car park contractor Latthapol Kesakotin, in one video, claimed that he paid USD $250 million to Yaowaret Shinawatra (the Prime Minister's sister) to gain a contract to build and operate the airport car park, and another video in which he claimed he didn't pay anything to Yaowaret. He later publicly denied that he paid anything to Yaowaret.^{[5]http://en.wikipedia....Airport_project}

Yaowaret Shinawatra, Thaksin's younger sister, in August filed criminal and civil lawsuits against the Thai-language daily Thai Post for a story on another construction contract at the airport http://cpj.org/2005/...journalists.php

How do you view this current case by your party deputy, Alongkorn Ponlabutr, accusing Thaksin’s sister, Yaowaret Shinawatra, of demanding a 300 million baht (US $7.5 million) bribe from a company to build a car park at the new Bangkok airport? Well, both sides are going to court, and they will each have to prove their case. It’s interesting to see the way the government has reacted to the revelations made by Alongkhorn. There has been no action, no words—only government MPs making political rebuttals, counter-allegations and so on. Abhisit Vejjajiva http://www2.irrawadd..._id=4903&page=3

Thaksin’s younger sister Yaowaret Shinawatra rejected suggestions Thaksin’s close family had left the country because they were concerned about possible consequences of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) mass protest. The family went abroad for business or holiday purposes and they would return to Thailand soon, Mrs Yaowaret said

They had no intention to flee the country, as the government suggested. Other members of the Shinawatra family were still in Thailand, she said

UDD leaders and their allies are soliciting donations to fund the protest which is set to begin nationwide tomorrow with a plan to assemble in Bangkok on Sunday. They have launched a donation campaign chaired by Yaowaret Shinawatra, a sister of fugitive former prime minister Thaksin, to raise money to pay for demonstrators' fuel costs..http://www.asiaviews.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19850:reportalias1025&catid=2:regional-news-a-special-reports&Itemid=9

Yaowaret Shinawatra, chairwoman of the National Women's Council and sister of the prime minister, also filed a similar suit against Alongkorn Polabutr, a Democrat MP and Thai Post newspaper, demanding 300 million baht in damages.

Lawsuits of this magnitude are unprecedented and caused quite a stir among journalists, who are confused as to where the fine line between defamation and criticism now stands. Meetings were called among editors and operators to discuss the new trend. Among the questions raised is whether the media still have the right to criticise people in the news, who are regarded as public figures. If this was still the case, why then were they sued for such enormous compensation? Do we still endorse a freedom of speech to criticise the performances and behaviours of these public figures? Some even view that such legal action is intended to be a threat to gag the media. http://www.internati...?parentid=31213

Business as usual for this pond scum Shinawarta family.

Edited May 2, 2012 by pimay11

[Buchholz]

Airport denied on violent measure over red shirts

Sumet Phomanee, Chairman of Airports of Thailand Plc, Wednesday denied that brutal measures were taken against the red-shirt group at Suvarnabhumi Airport even though they were involved in the illegal collection of extra parking fees.

On Monday the group rallied in front of Pheu Thai Party headquarters to ask MPs for help. They accused airport authorities of threatening them.

Sumet said that according to Parking Management Co's concession, the firm only had the right to keep parking fees collected from arriving vehicles, but they were also keeping extra parking fees collected on the fifth floor of the parking building.

"The airport has already told them that they are breaking the law but they still ignore our warning so we have to sue them," he said.

The red shirts' involvement was not a worry and Pheu Thai has nothing to do with this case. It's not a Pheu Thai problem.

-- The Nation 2012-05-02

[Crushdepth]

"Extra parking fees". Hilarious.

[OzMick]

"Pheu Thai has nothing to do with this case. It's not a Pheu Thai problem."

I beg to differ. How did a pack of thugs associated with PTP end up with a concession worth millions of baht?

That is a reasonable question that the people of Thailand deserve to get an answer to.

[Crushdepth]

"Pheu Thai has nothing to do with this case. It's not a Pheu Thai problem."

I beg to differ. How did a pack of thugs associated with PTP end up with a concession worth millions of baht?

That is a reasonable question that the people of Thailand deserve to get an answer to.

I'm just curious as to how you can take over part of an airport with guns in this day and age - without getting shot?

[OzMick]

"Pheu Thai has nothing to do with this case. It's not a Pheu Thai problem."

I beg to differ. How did a pack of thugs associated with PTP end up with a concession worth millions of baht?

That is a reasonable question that the people of Thailand deserve to get an answer to.

I'm just curious as to how you can take over part of an airport with guns in this day and age - without getting shot?

I suppose it helps if you are part of an armed militia of the ruling party.

[phiphidon]

Do I understand correctly that a bunch of redshirts with no connection to a legally registered company and none to the airport, think the government - which should be asking the police why they haven't arrested them - should instruct the airport authorities to facilitate their collecting protection money from car park users?

Or have I missed something in the translation?

Google "Armed paramilitary takeover of Bangkok's international airport parking" to find a BP article on the concession problem in 2010.

Which implicates the AOT, the BJP, Newin and members of the 1st Army (who were "the men in black"). Well that actual article may not but they were all involved at one stage or another. Abhisit did order a "transparent inquiry" which ended up with the BJP Transport Minister asking the AOT to investigate itself. As so often happens, nothing more is reported................

Newin supporting red shirts and PTP MP?

Where did I say that?

[phiphidon]

Google "Armed paramilitary takeover of Bangkok's international airport parking" to find a BP article on the concession problem in 2010.

Which implicates the AOT, the BJP, Newin and members of the 1st Army (who were "the men in black"). Well that actual article may not but they were all involved at one stage or another. Abhisit did order a "transparent inquiry" which ended up with the BJP Transport Minister asking the AOT to investigate itself. As so often happens, nothing more is reported................

Newin supporting red shirts and PTP MP?

Well, he has been known to switch sides..... but in this case, nah, he wouldn't shed a tear if they burst in to flames ..... (that was the polite version of he wouldn't ...... if they were on fire)

Whybother went off on the wrong tangent and you followed him - I was referring, as was he, to the 2010 Parking Bay Incident.

[phiphidon]

"Pheu Thai has nothing to do with this case. It's not a Pheu Thai problem."

I beg to differ. How did a pack of thugs associated with PTP end up with a concession worth millions of baht?

That is a reasonable question that the people of Thailand deserve to get an answer to.

I'm just curious as to how you can take over part of an airport with guns in this day and age - without getting shot?

Wearing yellow shirts seems to give you a great advantage of not being shot on airport grounds when taking it over.

Edited May 3, 2012 by phiphidon

[whybother]

Google "Armed paramilitary takeover of Bangkok's international airport parking" to find a BP article on the concession problem in 2010.

Which implicates the AOT, the BJP, Newin and members of the 1st Army (who were "the men in black"). Well that actual article may not but they were all involved at one stage or another. Abhisit did order a "transparent inquiry" which ended up with the BJP Transport Minister asking the AOT to investigate itself. As so often happens, nothing more is reported................

Newin supporting red shirts and PTP MP?

Where did I say that?

"paramilitary takeover" ... "which implicates ... BJP, Newin"

which I read to mean that BJP and Newin were implicated in the paramilitary takeover, which relates to the PTP MP and red shirts protesting now.

[Thaddeus]

"Pheu Thai has nothing to do with this case. It's not a Pheu Thai problem."

I beg to differ. How did a pack of thugs associated with PTP end up with a concession worth millions of baht?

That is a reasonable question that the people of Thailand deserve to get an answer to.

I'm just curious as to how you can take over part of an airport with guns in this day and age - without getting shot?

Wearing yellow shirts seems to give you a great advantage of not being shot on airport grounds when taking it over.

Actually, I think it just may be not carrying guns.

[dominique355]

"Today Pheu Thai is the government but why are the red shirts still getting arrested?"

Errr - because you are breaking the law???

Actually, the Red Shirts thought after having terrorized the whole city for weeks, after burning down all kind of buildings, harassed hospitals, shot RPGs at people, and then getting elected, they are immune, because, well, they seem to be immune. Not only as an individual elected MP, but also as a group of people. They did the dirty work for Thaksin and his cronies and now present their bill. Why is anyone surprised at this? Remember? Mobocracy

[Crushdepth]

"Pheu Thai has nothing to do with this case. It's not a Pheu Thai problem."

I beg to differ. How did a pack of thugs associated with PTP end up with a concession worth millions of baht?

That is a reasonable question that the people of Thailand deserve to get an answer to.

I'm just curious as to how you can take over part of an airport with guns in this day and age - without getting shot?

Wearing yellow shirts seems to give you a great advantage of not being shot on airport grounds when taking it over.

Not having guns was doubtless a factor, since they were unarmed.