Homophobia And Prejudice: It's Time To Kill The Hate: Thai Opinion

[webfact]

Homophobia and prejudice: It's time to kil the hate

Paisarn Likhitpreechakul

Special to The Nation

BANGKOK: -- While LGBT Americans last week celebrated President Obama's statement of support for same-sex marriage, Thai lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders could only look on with envy, as Thailand is perhaps decades away from having a leader with such moral courage.

In fact, the opposite is true here. Homophobia and transphobia is the rule in Thai politics. When his interior minister, Purachai Piamsomboon, mulled about legalising gay marriage some years ago, then PM Thaksin Shinawatra quickly dismissed it as a "Western idea". Just two weeks ago, a Pheu Thai MP mocked a Democrat MP for being "taew taek" ("over-the-top queen"). The latter denied that he's not one and said the Pheu Thai Party harboured many more "people of that kind".

The use of alleged homosexuality for political attacks clearly shows how Thai society views gays and transgenders: deranged, immoral and, therefore, undeserving of respect.

This is to be expected in a country where the medical profession still categorises transgenderism as a form of mental disorder, where the predominantly "Buddhist" population believes that LGBTs are immoral and guilty of past-life sins, where all junior high-school students are instructed by government-approved textbooks that homosexuality is a kind of sexual deviancy, and where the media like the popular TV programme "Tee Sib" regularly reinforces negative images by portraying LGBTs as morally defective, promiscuous, and spreaders of HIV/Aids.

It's no surprise then that Thailand has no openly LGBT public figures, despite the known secret that some of our past and present leaders are homosexuals. Even straight officials unafraid of gay rumours are reluctant to support LGBT rights, not wanting to be seen as having "low moral standards".

Thailand is usually perceived by foreigners as tolerant towards LGBTs because transgenders are more visible than in the West. But this myth is based on the wrong assumption that visibility comes with equality. Few foreigners would notice that the transgenders are visible only in lower-rung careers. The sight of many local men enjoying a thriving gay scene also hides the fact that few are "out" to their families. Even fewer are "out" at work, especially if they are in the formal sectors.

It's true that in general Thai LGBTs don't get their heads kicked in. But that's only because the culture has already done an excellent job of kicking our heads in, convincing most LGBTs that we are somehow lesser human beings. We are normally left alone as long as we mind our place and stay within the cultural fence.

But if we try to cross into more formal space, society is ready to rein us in - sometimes violently. The shutdown of the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade three years ago and the overwhelming public support for Chiang Mai's banning of transgenders from decorative floats during public festivities are examples of cultural resistance against equal treatment for LGBTs.

The public sphere is not the only place where Thai LGBTs must tread carefully. Some people find it too close for comfort when LGBTs are perceived to be entering their personal space. Many people object to a proposed law to recognise gender change because they claim that men would be duped into marrying a transgender. (On the contrary, same-sex marriage seems less threatening, as it only involves "those people".)

Things can get violent, when the "intrusion" is no longer hypothetical. Last June, a tomboy was killed and her body dumped in a reservoir in Trat. The main suspect, the mother of the victim's girlfriend, readily divulged that the reason for the murder was her preference to see her daughter date a man than a "tom". This is clearly a case where a person is killed because of her sexual orientation and gender identity. It would be categorised as "hate crime" in countries with a law - such as the Matthew Shepard Act in the US - to curb crimes motivated in whole or in part by the offender's bias against the victim's identity.

One would hope that this is just an isolated case. But a disturbing pattern is emerging. In 2009, two 17-year-old girls in a same-sex relationship were found dead with more than sixty stab wounds in Chiang Mai. Police suggested they were killed by a man who was attracted to one of them and disdainful of their relationship. This case was an exception in that there were no other obvious causes for the crime, so the police quickly zeroed in on jealously and bias as the motive.

But the idea of "hate crime" doesn't exist in Thailand's law enforcement, and the police usually account for similar cases as crimes of passion or love affairs turned sour. In at least five other murder cases over the past six years, the police hypothesised that the tom or lesbian victims were killed solely because they had become involved with married women or someone's girlfriends.

This assumption legitimises the murders as the victims' own fault, as though a murder is an appropriate reaction if the alleged affairs are true. It also blinds society to the fact that a man in a similar love triangle would unlikely meet the same fate. As the Trat case clearly shows, the victim would not have been killed if she were a man.

And yet, murders are not the only kind of violence against toms and lesbians. In February, a 14-year-old girl in Loei reported to police that her father had been raping her continuously for four years. The father excused his behaviour by saying that he did it because she "liked to hang out with toms" and wouldn't listen to his instructions to stay away from them. Corrective rapes "to cure lesbians" are known to be far from rare, although until now overlooked by the state.

This can only be the tip of an iceberg. The question is how many unreported cases of violence are infused with homophobia? These cases of gruesome violence against toms and lesbians prompted local LGBT groups in collaboration with the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission to send a letter to Thai officials, demanding investigation and action, along with other measures to combat homophobia and transphobia and discrimination against LGBTs. The government has yet to respond.

In its 2011 report, the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights identified murder, beatings, kidnappings, rape and sexual assault against LGBT people as homophobic and transphobic violence that "constitute a form of gender-based violence, driven by a desire to punish those seen as defying gender norms", and that violence against LGBT people "tends to be especially vicious compared to other bias-motivated crimes".

The pretense of acceptance has long blinded Thai society from its deep-rooted homophobia and transphobia, allowing such horrendous crimes to happen. It's true that male-to-female transgenders are rarely targets of violence, as they have been a familiar, if ridiculed, part of the Thai culture. However, these cases of violence against toms and lesbians shows that the crossing of gender lines by females into male territory is more threatening for some Thais, especially when it's felt to be invading one's personal life.

To mark today's International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, said "Homophobia and transphobia are no different to sexism, misogyny, racism or xenophobia. But whereas these last forms of prejudice are universally condemned by governments, homophobia and transphobia are too often overlooked. History shows us the terrible human price of discrimination and prejudice. No one is entitled to treat a group of people as less valuable, less deserving or less worthy of respect. Each and every one of us is entitled to the same rights, to the same respect and ethical treatment, regardless of our sexual orientation or gender identity."

Although Thailand has made a significant foreign policy shift last year by supporting LGBT rights internationally for the first time, it did not support the inclusion of "sexual orientation" as a ground for protection in the UN resolution to condemn extrajudicial killings. Now that evidence has emerged to indicate the existence of such violence in our own backyard, it's time the government did something to eliminate the root causes of the subtle, yet ever-present homophobia and transphobia in Thai society.

Paisarn Likhitpreechakul is co-founder of FOR-SOGI.org for the promotion and protection of LGBT rights in Thailand.

-- The Nation 2012-05-17

[pacovl46]

Sorry, but whoever wrote this article lost me at:

"The use of alleged homosexuality for political attacks clearly shows how Thai society views gays and transgenders: deranged, immoral and, therefore, undeserving of respect."

Thailand is clearly one of the most accepting countries when it comes to LTGB. I never saw as many of them so openly going out and about their lives here in Thailand than in any other country on this planet. Every movie and every sitcom features at least one gay character. They're perfectly accepted in society here. OK, they can't legally marry here yet, but that doesn't say anything about their acceptance. And one cretinous politician doesn't speak for the entire nation!!

[laobali]

Amazing. Not a single comment or snide remark yet - not even about the typo in the title.

Too serious a topic, perhaps?

[Mitker]

Sorry, but whoever wrote this article lost me at:

"The use of alleged homosexuality for political attacks clearly shows how Thai society views gays and transgenders: deranged, immoral and, therefore, undeserving of respect."

Thailand is clearly one of the most accepting countries when it comes to LTGB. I never saw as many of them so openly going out and about their lives here in Thailand than in any other country on this planet. Every movie and every sitcom features at least one gay character. They're perfectly accepted in society here. OK, they can't legally marry here yet, but that doesn't say anything about their acceptance. And one cretinous politician doesn't speak for the entire nation!!

The point of the writer is that visibility doesn't mean equality. Mostly when the character is typically ridiculed in the medias (soap operas etc..)

Personally, I would see mostly indifference when it comes to how straight folks look at gays in Thailand. Probably still much better than the hate too often shown in the western world (at street level)

[JeezeLooeze]

Yes its true that rights and protections for LGTB miniorities have a long way to go in Thailand. But maybe the reason why many LGTB farang from countries that already have these rights visit/move to Thailand is because, on a personal level, Thai society is generally accepting of the LGTB community and people don't face the same kind of prejudice they do back in their own country. Yes its true that LGTB here are often portrayed as freaks and as a joke on Thai soaps, and in officialdom, that their existance/activities are only justified/permitted because they bring in foreign exchange (by doing drag shows for tourists or hosting international circuit parties). Thailand is one of the few countries where gay politicans and military have reached the highest levels of government.

[Jingthing]

People living under the silly delusion that Thailand is a paradise for gay THAIS need to read the OP.

Hilariously, Thaksin's comment about legal same sex marriage being an (unwelcome) western import sounds like some of our gay posters here who are so concerned about cultural imperialism.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

I found the article in OP exaggerated. I think mention has to be made of the class-stratified nature of Thai society. There seems to be little discrimination in hi-so society; not overt recognition, but covert acceptance. In the middle strata of society is where you find the worst discrimination. Among the working/peasant classes, there is again very little discrimination; perhaps a rather rough acceptance.

This, of course, is amongst Thais, and is only my perception (I could give you chapter and verse for what I've said, but that would mean naming people, which I see no good reason to do on this forum). This has nothing to do with the perception of LGTB in the mixed Thai-farang society which many of us inhabit.

When I was a university teacher, ladyboys were part of the scene, and were well accepted by other students. I remember one boy who turned up next term as a girl; in most Western societies he would have been crucified; in Thailand he was accepted (well, the girls did peep inside his sweater, but he was relaxed enough not to let that worry him). One term I had a student whose sex remained a mystery throughout the term (I met him coming out of a gay bar with a barboy I knew, but that doesn't say much). Even his name didn't give it away.

[Nigel1500]

Frankly, I think it's great that Thailand is this way. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman under God.

Gays, lesbians and transgenders can all live how they want to live. They can enjoy a civil union etc. They should get the same socio-economic benefits. But marriage is a hetrosexual rite.

[Jingthing]

Frankly, I think it's great that Thailand is this way. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman under God.

Gays, lesbians and transgenders can all live how they want to live. They can enjoy a civil union etc. They should get the same socio-economic benefits. But marriage is a hetrosexual rite.

Thailand doesn't offer same sex civil unions ... either. In some countries, same sex marriage is legal so do you think God is having a hissy fit now?

Also keep in mind civil unions and marriage are not the only gay issues. Read the OP so I don't have to repeat the obvious.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[Scott]

A post with a reference to a royal family has been removed. The LM laws extends to royals outside of Thailand as well.

[LeCharivari]

I found the article in OP exaggerated.

Agreed - massively so.

The author seems to be strangely unaware that gay rights and marriage were debated when the constitution was last reviewed and would have been included but for confusing references to a "third sex" (a reference his group were partly responsible for including). He also seems unaware that the National Human Rights Commission of Thailand (a Government organisation, not an NGO) raised the issue last year at ASEAN.

" five other murder cases over the past six years, the police hypothesised that the tom or lesbian victims were killed solely because they had become involved with married women or someone's girlfriends." That works out to one murder per year for being involved with someone else's wife/girlfriend; given the number of murders of straights who have become involved similarly, being a lesbian appears to be disproportianately safe.

The author was the winner of the GALAS award for the Gay Rights Activist of the Year in 2011; he is to be commended for his work changing the status of those kathoeys rejected for military service from psychosis to physically unsuitable, but since then he seems to have been looking for problems and issues where they do not exist (such as the supposed "pattern" of attacks on toms) and he and Anjana Suvarnananda are well on the way to becoming the Peter Tatchells of Thailand.

[Jingthing]

Strange to hear such hostility for ground breaking THAI gay activists from foreign "gay" people.

About the Thai constitution thing, I don't think there really is any hard evidence that gay equality language was in reality close to be put into any Thai constitution. It's weird to demonize gay activists over this. If the lawmakers really wanted to put in equality language, they could have worked out any so called confusion. Are you saying Thais are not capable of what South Africans are?

I suggest that THAI people, gay and otherwise, are much better judges about the actual civil rights and social treatment of gays in Thailand than ... foreigners.

Many tourists see a ladyboy cashier being "tolerated" (not beat up) and come to the conclusion there are no issues that sexual minorities face in Thailand. That is so superficial. The problems are not the same as they might be in Anglo countries, etc., but they are just as real to actual Thai people dealing with them.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

The author was the winner of the GALAS award for the Gay Rights Activist of the Year in 2011; he is to be commended for his work changing the status of those kathoeys rejected for military service from psychosis to physically unsuitable, but since then he seems to have been looking for problems and issues where they do not exist (such as the supposed "pattern" of attacks on toms) and he and Anjana Suvarnananda are well on the way to becoming the Peter Tatchells of Thailand.

I would have agreed with your opinion of Peter Tatchell a while ago but I've come to regard him as a bit of hero. He's put himself in harm's way (and been injured)for what he believes in. He's also pretty consistnt in his beliefs which aren't confined to the gay arena. Admittedly he gets up a lot of noses but that's one of the things I like about him. He's sort of a gay George Galloway

[tominbkk]

At the mini mall by my house, out in the middle of nowhere, transgenders and those going in that direction run the Lotus Express. The beauty salon is managed and run by a couple Toms and their Dees. A massage place has a couple rather effeminate guys who appear to own and run it, a very popular proper foot massage place, not the other kind! All friendly, happy, socializing folks. I usually end up at that mall once day for one reason or another, have never seen victimization of anyone over the several years of going there.

Big Middle School right next to my village. Lots of effeminate boys walking with their 'girlfriends', looking very happy and gay, pun intended. Not being chased for their lives, not being victimized, but seeming to enjoy their status as one of the girls.

I believe this is the reality of everyday LGBT peoples in Thailand, from a local and for the most part non-Western area of town. People just going on with their lives with nobody bothering them. Makes for boring news though, so you won't hear it in the Nation.

[Jingthing]

It's much better here than Iran! Doesn't mean gay activists don't have work to do here though. Such as those textbooks mentioned in the OP. That's the kind of thing that could be changed. But for that, you do need Thai gay activists. Westerners preaching there aren't things to work on here -- NOT HELPFUL. That attitude reminds me a bit of the old western colonial romanticization of "naive" natives of the tropics.

Funny, at one point I would have thought gay Thais fighting for better treatment in their society could expect overwhelming, enthusiastic support from gay foreigners with a connection to Thailand. I was so wrong!

Edited May 17, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

I think the confusion between gays and various types of transgenders (who are more publicly visible here than in many countries) has made political progress more complicated, but at the same time it is not always the gays who have done the hardest part of the civil rights work- if I recall correctly, it was lesbians a few years back who overturned the government's attempted prohibition on gay teachers, and the most recognisable advance in very recent history (the change in the military service regulations mentioned above) was accomplished by a transgendered person.

[Galong]

Frankly, I think it's great that Thailand is this way. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman under God.

Gays, lesbians and transgenders can all live how they want to live. They can enjoy a civil union etc. They should get the same socio-economic benefits. But marriage is a hetrosexual rite.

Oh, so the world should bow to a certain myth and base the rights of others purely on a book written by unknown men of unknown character with unknown motive. Yes, that is certainly the way for humanity to evolve. Oh no, I said evolve... now I'm doomed.

Believe whatever you want. I fully support your right to do so. However, if you want to change political policy based on your mythology, then the government should have the right to tax the crap out of your church... for starters.

[isanbirder]

I suggest that THAI people, gay and otherwise, are much better judges about the actual civil rights and social treatment of gays in Thailand than ... foreigners.

I quite agree. Those of us who've lived here for a while think we know, but I'm sure we get a distorted view, especially if we live in a supportive environment.

[mrdome]

Thailand is clearly one of the most accepting countries when it comes to LTGB. I never saw as many of them so openly going out and about their lives here in Thailand than in any other country on this planet. Every movie and every sitcom features at least one gay character. They're perfectly accepted in society here. OK, they can't legally marry here yet, but that doesn't say anything about their acceptance.

Sorry, but I disagree. It's more like, as long as you do not talk about it you can do whatever you want and others will pretend they do not see it.

Also, many of the gay characters on TV are not there as fully equal personalities. Watch closely.

[Ijustwannateach]

It seems like it is time to post the infographic again demonstrating how the church has NO SAY in marriage, at least in the US:

[katana]

...Just two weeks ago, a Pheu Thai MP mocked a Democrat MP for being "taew taek" ("over-the-top queen"). The latter denied that he's not one [sic] and said the Pheu Thai Party harboured many more "people of that kind"....

I was reading about that a couple of weeks ago. The MPs in question were Police Sergeant Major Prasit Chaisisa, Pheu Thai MP for Surin and Bunyot Sukthinthai, Democrat MP for BKK. Bunyot Sukthinthai, as you might recall was the MP who recently saluted the Thai house speaker, who he thought was behaving in a dictatorial fashion, with a series of Heil Hitlers, before being escorted from the proceedings.

Referring to the Heil Hitler episode, Chaisisa accused Bunyot of being an over-the top queen unable to control his emotions. Bunyot countered by saying he wasn't and could prove it and anyhow, the Pheu Thai party had many more of them in their ranks.

http://www.matichon....2&subcatid=0207

You can see the exchange between the two MPs here, where the House Speaker asks Chaisisa to withdraw the taew taek phrase after Bunyot complains, which he finally seems to do.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiNVclnVsDM[/media]

[Jingthing]

Thailand is clearly one of the most accepting countries when it comes to LTGB. I never saw as many of them so openly going out and about their lives here in Thailand than in any other country on this planet. Every movie and every sitcom features at least one gay character. They're perfectly accepted in society here. OK, they can't legally marry here yet, but that doesn't say anything about their acceptance.

Sorry, but I disagree. It's more like, as long as you do not talk about it you can do whatever you want and others will pretend they do not see it.

Also, many of the gay characters on TV are not there as fully equal personalities. Watch closely.

Perfectly accepted in Thai society. You'd really have to be out of touch to actually believe that.

Again, just to focus one concrete, black and white issue. Would a society that "perfectly accepts" a minority group require its students to read textbooks DEMONIZING that same group? The Thai gay activists deserve our full support. It's not only about marriage. That isn't yet a big issue here and it may never be, but that doesn't mean just because it is the most visible issue in the west that there aren't other important gay civil rights issues for Thai gays.

Of course we may not all agree with every Thai gay activist (thinking of the strange one in CM) and every goal and tactic, but again, there are some obvious things that shouldn't even be controversial. Such as changing the textbooks.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[catmac]

It's much better here than Iran! Doesn't mean gay activists don't have work to do here though. Such as those textbooks mentioned in the OP. That's the kind of thing that could be changed. But for that, you do need Thai gay activists. Westerners preaching there aren't things to work on here -- NOT HELPFUL. That attitude reminds me a bit of the old western colonial romanticization of "naive" natives of the tropics.

Funny, at one point I would have thought gay Thais fighting for better treatment in their society could expect overwhelming, enthusiastic support from gay foreigners with a connection to Thailand. I was so wrong!

There you go again, JT, with your very own "gay fanaticism". To say that "gay Thais fighting for better treatmant in their society don't get the overwhelming , enthusiastic support from gay foreigners" just bcause we don't all share you views on gay marraige is utter nonsense. I cannot believe that a move to clean-up the text books, etc., would not receive our overwhelming support, but insisting that Thailand embraces gay marraige looks a little bit like your despised Western colonial arrogance to me.

Yes, Peter Tatchell, indeed. In my view he did more to damage the cause of gay acceptance and equality in the U.K. that any homophobe ever did.

[LeCharivari]

About the Thai constitution thing, I don't think there really is any hard evidence that gay equality language was in reality close to be put into any Thai constitution. It's weird to demonize gay activists over this. If the lawmakers really wanted to put in equality language, they could have worked out any so called confusion. Are you saying Thais are not capable of what South Africans are?

I suggest that THAI people, gay and otherwise, are much better judges about the actual civil rights and social treatment of gays in Thailand than ... foreigners.

Many tourists see a ladyboy cashier being "tolerated" (not beat up) and come to the conclusion there are no issues that sexual minorities face in Thailand. That is so superficial. The problems are not the same as they might be in Anglo countries, etc., but they are just as real to actual Thai people dealing with them.

The proposed amendment is very well documented and the debate was televised so the "hard evidence" is unavoidable. The second time it was debated and voted on some of the wording had been changed including the wording for sexual identity (“attalaktangpet”) and far from being not "close" to being passed THE AMENDMENT WAS PASSED BY A MAJORITY OF 60 OUT OF 100 (it failed on a technicality).

Anjana Suvananda herself admitted the choice of wording had been a mistake and was the reason why the amendment was not passed when interviewed by the IGLHRC*, and this view was confirmed in interviews with a number of members of the Assembly.

I am not saying what I "think" Thais are "capable" of or what I "think" of the constitutional process, simply what HAPPENED.

I am not saying that foreigners are any better at judging Thai civil rights, etc, than Thais - simply that ONE Thai view may not be representative (and, in this case, this ONE view of the "pattern" of violence to lesbians is not only manufactured but is clearly not supported by the evidence put forward by the author).

*:Anjana: ... In the previous Constitution of 10 years ago, the word “pet” is mentioned in the Equality Clause. It means many things -- biological sex, sexual acts, sexuality, and also gender. But the word has been interpreted as biological sex of men and women. This time, there were a lot of questions about the word, “sexual diversities.” It shows how strong the assumption is that there is only one type of sexuality, which is heterosexuality.

GP: Subsequently on July 1, another debate took place in the Assembly. This time many more members (60 out of 100) agreed to protect the rights of LGBT people because their own colleagues within the Assembly lobbied them. But what appeared to be a victory at first turned out to be a defeat. Apparently, there were complaints by some members that since the Assembly already voted on this issue, they could not bring it back to the Asembly for debate. Meaning the issue was dead on the floor. Was anything different in the proposal the 2nd time around? Why were there more members willing to support it?

Anjana: Second time around, a newly-coined word was used, “attalaktangpet” which means, “sexual identity.” Attalak is a Sanskrit word used in Thai language but not many people understand it. .... And the debate was televised nationally so millions of people saw the debate on TV.... at different points of the debate, it was not clear if they were talking about gay-lesbian or transgender. There was language confusion. If you look at the English language, many words have been developed only recently, for example, gender expression. We haven’t got there yet.

http://www.iglhrc.org/cgi-bin/iowa/article/takeaction/partners/438.html

[Jingthing]

It's much better here than Iran! Doesn't mean gay activists don't have work to do here though. Such as those textbooks mentioned in the OP. That's the kind of thing that could be changed. But for that, you do need Thai gay activists. Westerners preaching there aren't things to work on here -- NOT HELPFUL. That attitude reminds me a bit of the old western colonial romanticization of "naive" natives of the tropics.

Funny, at one point I would have thought gay Thais fighting for better treatment in their society could expect overwhelming, enthusiastic support from gay foreigners with a connection to Thailand. I was so wrong!

There you go again, JT, with your very own "gay fanaticism". To say that "gay Thais fighting for better treatmant in their society don't get the overwhelming , enthusiastic support from gay foreigners" just bcause we don't all share you views on gay marraige is utter nonsense. I cannot believe that a move to clean-up the text books, etc., would not receive our overwhelming support, but insisting that Thailand embraces gay marraige looks a little bit like your despised Western colonial arrogance to me.

Yes, Peter Tatchell, indeed. In my view he did more to damage the cause of gay acceptance and equality in the U.K. that any homophobe ever did.

Excuse me, but I don't appreciate having my views blatantly distorted. I have never made any such comment about "insisting" that Thailand get same sex marriage. I have always said this is up to the Thai people and I do presume any such movement here for same sex unions or same sex marriages would naturally be led by Thai gay activists. Is that about starting a poll about expat opinion on that subject? How is that anything like "insisting" or cultural imperialism to guage opinion about a topic?

[LeCharivari]

Funny, at one point I would have thought gay Thais fighting for better treatment in their society could expect overwhelming, enthusiastic support from gay foreigners with a connection to Thailand. I was so wrong!

No-one should be entitled to unquestioning "overwhelming, enthusiastic support" from those who just happen to be from or have "a connection to" a similar racial, sexual or ethnic group, whether they are gay, black, white, Muslim or Jewish just because they claim to be "fighting for better treatment in their society". The greatest atrocities of the last century, from Nazi Germany to the Killing Fields and the Balkans, were justified on those grounds. Anyone who fails to question what they support and does so just because of an accident of birth is on very shaky ground indeed.

[Jingthing]

Funny, at one point I would have thought gay Thais fighting for better treatment in their society could expect overwhelming, enthusiastic support from gay foreigners with a connection to Thailand. I was so wrong!

No-one should be entitled to unquestioning "overwhelming, enthusiastic support" from those who just happen to be from or have "a connection to" a similar racial, sexual or ethnic group, whether they are gay, black, white, Muslim or Jewish just because they claim to be "fighting for better treatment in their society". The greatest atrocities of the last century, from Nazi Germany to the Killing Fields and the Balkans, were justified on those grounds. Anyone who fails to question what they support and does so just because of an accident of birth is on very shaky ground indeed.

Good one. You officially lose according to the Goodwin rule. You bring up Nazis on a topic that has nothing to do with Nazis -- automatic fail!

http://en.wikipedia....odwin's_law

More seriously, you conveniently (and predictably) ignore my qualifying language later.

Of course we may not all agree with every Thai gay activist (thinking of the strange one in CM) and every goal and tactic, but again, there are some obvious things that shouldn't even be controversial. Such as changing the textbooks.

In any case, Goodwins has happened. Game over.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Although others have joined the OP in condemning these textbooks (all junior high-school students are instructed by government-approved textbooks that homosexuality is a kind of sexual deviancy), does anyone actually know what these textbooks are?

I ddin't attend a Thai school so I can't comment myself, but my Partner did and he has no idea what books the OP is talking about.

[Jingthing]

Although others have joined the OP in condemning these textbooks (all junior high-school students are instructed by government-approved textbooks that homosexuality is a kind of sexual deviancy), does anyone actually know what these textbooks are?

I ddin't attend a Thai school so I can't comment myself, but my Partner did and he has no idea what books the OP is talking about.

That's hilarious! Do you remember every detail of textbooks you read in school? Mostly they are forgotten after the test (if that). But that still doesn't make it right to officially teach intolerance, now does it?

It's your perfect right of course, but I do find you an odd kind of homosexual. Seemingly actively anti-activist.

Maybe you're right! Maybe Thailand IS the best of all possible worlds for Thai gays!

Edited May 19, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

More seriously, you conveniently (and predictably) ignore my qualifying language later.

Of course we may not all agree with every Thai gay activist (thinking of the strange one in CM) and every goal and tactic, but again, there are some obvious things that shouldn't even be controversial. Such as changing the textbooks.

I didn't ignore it, but as you referred to what "we may not all agree with" the ALL made your qualifier meaningless.