Hidden Electricity Fee?

[drnkurmlkshk]

Hello,

I was about to rent a place today when, at the last moment, I was told that the cost per unit of power would be 6 baht. I remember a couple of weeks ago seeing a post on this topic and it seemed agreed upon that the cost should be significantly less than this (maybe in the 3.75 range). Am I getting totally ripped off here? We use the AC a *ton* and run several power hungry electronic devices all day (big desktop computers with several monitors each). so this is actually a big cost.

Could I get some clarification about how much I should be paying per unit of energy?

[Fookhaht]

About 3.5 baht per unit is what the electric companies generally charge. However, your condo or apartment owner can charge any thing they want over that. It's easy profit for them, so shop around. Better yet, get the owner to allow you to make payments directly to the electric company, as I do, and enjoy the minimum rate.

Caveat Emptor.

Sent from my GT-P1000T using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited May 20, 2012 by Fookhaht

[eyecatcher]

Having said that; 6bt a unit in a hotel/condo/aprtment I would say is pretty good- when most are in the 6-8bt unit range.

You will not get a rate below 6bt in a rented apartment though.....but I am sure someone out there will prove me wrong.

[barefoot1988]

6 baht rate is cheap for a condo, im paying 7. however th rate for rented house should be lower

[Semper]

. Better yet, get the owner to allow you to make payments directly to the electric company, as I do, and enjoy the minimum rate.

.... and then you have to pay a higher rent.

[drnkurmlkshk]

I live in riverside condo right now and just double checked. Last month we used a lot of power (so probably the highest rate) and overall it was 4.1 baht per unit.

Oh well from this information it sounds like I'll get this place anyway. Really feels crappy to be leaving the current condo - I really like it here and think its a steal of a deal.

[mcgriffith]

Apartment renters/condo owners pay whatever amount per unit that the management wants to charge, as stated above.

If you own or rent a house, and have a regular single dwelling utility bill, you'll pay 3 something per unit.

I pay 5 per unit in my serviced apartment.

[fearless1]

Apartments are hardly making a killing charging 6 baht per unit. They have a lot of costs involving the electrical system that need to be recouped somehow. There are things like lights and air conditioning in the common areas, elevators, electrical system installation and maintenance, etc...

[pipo1000]

Apartments are hardly making a killing charging 6 baht per unit. They have a lot of costs involving the electrical system that need to be recouped somehow. There are things like lights and air conditioning in the common areas, elevators, electrical system installation and maintenance, etc...

I thought there were monthly maintenance fees to cover those expenses

[onthedarkside]

So so many Thaivisa topics on this subject. Lots of folks jump in with the 3 baht number. The reality is that a single low usage house might get down near that price + surcharge + tax, but once usage increase and then a property is considered a business premise (like all rental properties) the rate start to get over 4 baht/unit +tax . 5 Baht is a fair rate in my opinion. 6 baht is over the top.

[KhunVee]

Apartments are hardly making a killing charging 6 baht per unit. They have a lot of costs involving the electrical system that need to be recouped somehow. There are things like lights and air conditioning in the common areas, elevators, electrical system installation and maintenance, etc...

That's by law to be paid with the money collected from the Common Fee and not with the added charges on your electricity bill (which is in fact illegal and you can take them to court for this (good luck to you)).

I know it's a controversial statement, but I'll stay with the facts.

Edited May 20, 2012 by KhunVee

[KhunVee]

So so many Thaivisa topics on this subject. Lots of folks jump in with the 3 baht number. The reality is that a single low usage house might get down near that price + surcharge + tax, but once usage increase and then a property is considered a business premise (like all rental properties) the rate start to get over 4 baht/unit +tax . 5 Baht is a fair rate in my opinion. 6 baht is over the top.

In Chiang Mai city I can (but will not ) name at least 4 condominia that charge 8THB per unit.

[Sophon]

Apartments are hardly making a killing charging 6 baht per unit. They have a lot of costs involving the electrical system that need to be recouped somehow. There are things like lights and air conditioning in the common areas, elevators, electrical system installation and maintenance, etc...

That's by law to be paid with the money collected from the Common Fee and not with the added charges on your electricity bill (which is in fact illegal and you can take them to court for this (good luck to you)).

I know it's a controversial statement, but I'll stay with the facts.

Common fees are only for condominiums, for a regular apartment building you only pay your rent and the utlities. So the cost fearless pointed out has to be covered by either a higher electricity rate or higher rent.

Can you point to any law/regulation that says it's illegal to charge a higher electricity rate when renting out an apartment or condo? I don't have any knowledge about this myself so you may very well be right.

Sophon

Sophon

[hellodolly]

So so many Thaivisa topics on this subject. Lots of folks jump in with the 3 baht number. The reality is that a single low usage house might get down near that price + surcharge + tax, but once usage increase and then a property is considered a business premise (like all rental properties) the rate start to get over 4 baht/unit +tax . 5 Baht is a fair rate in my opinion. 6 baht is over the top.

In Chiang Mai city I can (but will not ) name at least 4 condominia that charge 8THB per unit.

I pay 6 Baht per unit in my studio. It is a cxommon charge in condos. I also know of several at 8 Baht. I also know of a studio for 4 baht a unit. Cost of rent 18,000 Baht a month.

[KhunVee]

Apartments are hardly making a killing charging 6 baht per unit. They have a lot of costs involving the electrical system that need to be recouped somehow. There are things like lights and air conditioning in the common areas, elevators, electrical system installation and maintenance, etc...

That's by law to be paid with the money collected from the Common Fee and not with the added charges on your electricity bill (which is in fact illegal and you can take them to court for this (good luck to you)).

I know it's a controversial statement, but I'll stay with the facts.

Common fees are only for condominiums, for a regular apartment building you only pay your rent and the utlities. So the cost fearless pointed out has to be covered by either a higher electricity rate or higher rent.

Can you point to any law/regulation that says it's illegal to charge a higher electricity rate when renting out an apartment or condo? I don't have any knowledge about this myself so you may very well be right.

Sophon

Sophon

1- No, not really, it does not matter if it's called condominium or apartment (that's just a name) the principle stays the same. The owners still have to pay a common fee and that can not be generated from charging more on the utility bill. It should be paid from the rent or the contract should be made up so that the renter pays the common fee in addition to the rent.

2- I cannot give a proper reference of any law by name and/or number, sorry.

I've been advised by my lawyer about this a few years ago.

Please check with yours if you're interested in the exact details. I was using Siam Legal at the time.

Their arguments we're:

- Electricity (from the grid) is a state controlled and owned commodity and can not be re-sold (by others than the government) without special license (there are a few exceptions, but they are rare and do not apply to the normal grid) and the prices are fixed and determined by the government.

- When a condominium is charging more than the actual rate stated on the bill from the electric office, they should also charge 7% VAT (as it is a commodity) and thus the condominium should provide an Invoice and in their turn pay this collected VAT to the Tax-Office. But since it is illegal to re-sell electricity from the grid, they can not do this and are therefore actually breaking 2 laws.

But again, as said before, it is controversial as almost every condominium/apartment in Thailand is doing this...

And here's another one to chew on:

If you want your lease contract to be legally bonding;

The lease or rental contract should be Notary registered, otherwise it's just an absolute worthless piece of paper.

Then the owner is to pay 3% or 5% Withholding tax (depending on the type of property that's been rented out) on the full amount of the collected rent. Not the renter!

You should also receive an Invoice + Receipt for every payment you make.

I know,.... who does that for a private rent right?

But (to my humble opinion) I find it compulsory when renting a property for commercial activities.

Edited May 21, 2012 by KhunVee

[kaptainrob]

We pay 10k for apartment and 4 baht per Kw. The owner/manager even posts a copy of the Electric a/c on the notice board with a breakdown which shows he makes 25 satang per Kw profit.

[Sophon]

Apartments are hardly making a killing charging 6 baht per unit. They have a lot of costs involving the electrical system that need to be recouped somehow. There are things like lights and air conditioning in the common areas, elevators, electrical system installation and maintenance, etc...

That's by law to be paid with the money collected from the Common Fee and not with the added charges on your electricity bill (which is in fact illegal and you can take them to court for this (good luck to you)).

I know it's a controversial statement, but I'll stay with the facts.

Common fees are only for condominiums, for a regular apartment building you only pay your rent and the utlities. So the cost fearless pointed out has to be covered by either a higher electricity rate or higher rent.

Can you point to any law/regulation that says it's illegal to charge a higher electricity rate when renting out an apartment or condo? I don't have any knowledge about this myself so you may very well be right.

Sophon

Sophon

1- No, not really, it does not matter if it's called condominium or apartment (that's just a name) the principle stays the same. The owners still have to pay a common fee and that can not be generated from charging more on the utility bill. It should be paid from the rent or the contract should be made up so that the renter pays the common fee in addition to the rent.

<snipped>

You are not correct about this. Condominium or apartment is more than a name, it's about ownership structure. With an apartment building the whole building is owned by one person/company, so the individual renters are not owners and do not pay common fees. In a condominium each condo is owned by different people/companies and the owners pay common fees.

Sophon

[KhunVee]

That's by law to be paid with the money collected from the Common Fee and not with the added charges on your electricity bill (which is in fact illegal and you can take them to court for this (good luck to you)).

I know it's a controversial statement, but I'll stay with the facts.

Common fees are only for condominiums, for a regular apartment building you only pay your rent and the utlities. So the cost fearless pointed out has to be covered by either a higher electricity rate or higher rent.

Can you point to any law/regulation that says it's illegal to charge a higher electricity rate when renting out an apartment or condo? I don't have any knowledge about this myself so you may very well be right.

Sophon

Sophon

1- No, not really, it does not matter if it's called condominium or apartment (that's just a name) the principle stays the same. The owners still have to pay a common fee and that can not be generated from charging more on the utility bill. It should be paid from the rent or the contract should be made up so that the renter pays the common fee in addition to the rent.

<snipped>

You are not correct about this. Condominium or apartment is more than a name, it's about ownership structure. With an apartment building the whole building is owned by one person/company, so the individual renters are not owners and do not pay common fees. In a condominium each condo is owned by different people/companies and the owners pay common fees.

Sophon

Okay, you win the word-game,.... I was trying to keep in simple and did not wanted to drag in the company structures et cetera...

In the end, for a tenant it does not make ANY difference at all.

Different name but same situation.

The principle stays the same.

The electricity for light in the hallway, the elevator, the security dude, the cleaning staff, garbage collection,.... still all needs to be paid right?

And in the end who pays for this?

The residents right? (and don't say the owner/manager of the building because he actually walks to the counter to pay the bill)

With which money?

Generated from a common fee or it is included in the rent.

And tenants in a condominium don't always pay the common fee themselves too.

Many owners simply include that in the rent and pay the common fee themselves.

Same goes for many apartments,.... when you rent they sometimes quote rental charges and common fee's separately depending on their company structure and for easier bookkeeping, especially when they allow short term contracts.

But the topic of this discussion was electricity bills and their rates for tenants......

So,... it cannot be that your utility bill is hiked up to pay for this as it is illegal.

YES I know,... it happens all the time but it's still illegal.

As so many things in this world.

Edited May 21, 2012 by KhunVee

[drnkurmlkshk]

I agree that it doesn't make any sense that the common fees should be tied to individual electricity use. Their expense doesn't magically go up if my electric bill is 1000 or 2000 units... so why am I paying an extra X thousand baht a month for them to leave a light on?

In the end I brought this up and negotiated the rent down as a result. Bottom line cost will be the same. It is good to know that people can do this in Thailand. Back home this would be highly illegal.

[kjhbigv]

"Same goes for many apartments,.... when you rent they sometimes quote rental charges and common fee's separately"

Not correct, in all the rooms/apartments I have rented, never had it split because there are no 'common fees'.

In my eyes, there is a distinct difference between a room/apartment and a condo. Although, the term 'apartment' could fall into either categories.

A condo unit is owned by an individual (whether that be a person or company) and IS liable for 'common fees' for the upkeep of the building via the management company. These 'common fees' will be paid by the owner of that condo to the management company and whether he passes that charge onto any tenant is up to him.

A room/apartment is just a room in a block of rooms/apartments that is WHOLLY owned by an individual or company. Therefore, there are no 'common fees' applicable to each room or tenant of that apartment/room. The owner of the WHOLE building is responsible for the upkeep and that is why they make extra on the unit price of electricity, to help cover the upkeep and maintenance of the whole building, which they wholly own. (Whether legal or not, every apartment I have rented/looked at, does this),

Edited May 21, 2012 by kjhbigv

[drnkurmlkshk]

The owner of the WHOLE building is responsible for the upkeep and that is why they make extra on the unit price of electricity, to help cover the upkeep and maintenance of the whole building

That is what the rent expense is supposed to be for. Hidden fees like this are just not reasonable at all. It is really just hidden extra rent cost.

And if you need to think about why this is unethical for a minute:

You signed a contract that says rent is 10,000 baht a month. You were deciding between two places and settled on this one over a similar place that costs 12,000 a month. What you didn't know is that the 10k place charges 12 baht a unit for electricity, and that the real cost of rent is 15,000 a month (because you use a lot of power). I actually asked around a lot on this topic and one of the people actually does pay 12 baht a unit (!).

Where do you draw the line? Should you be able to have someone sign a lease and then charge them 100 baht a unit? It is quite a circus.

Edited May 22, 2012 by drnkurmlkshk

[Sophon]

The owner of the WHOLE building is responsible for the upkeep and that is why they make extra on the unit price of electricity, to help cover the upkeep and maintenance of the whole building

That is what the rent expense is supposed to be for. Hidden fees like this are just not reasonable at all. It is really just hidden extra rent cost.

And if you need to think about why this is unethical for a minute:

You signed a contract that says rent is 10,000 baht a month. You were deciding between two places and settled on this one over a similar place that costs 12,000 a month. What you didn't know is that the 10k place charges 12 baht a unit for electricity, and that the real cost of rent is 15,000 a month (because you use a lot of power). I actually asked around a lot on this topic and one of the people actually does pay 12 baht a unit (!).

Where do you draw the line? Should you be able to have someone sign a lease and then charge them 100 baht a unit? It is quite a circus.

I would never sign any lease where the cost of utilities is not stated in the lease.

Sophon

[barefoot1988]

12 baht per unit for real? im grumbling at my 7baht/unit, can't imagine at that

[hellodolly]

Well this thread has proven that talk is cheap. Makes no difference how the lease is worded or how many bills you will get you will still pay what they want. It might be on your electric bill or it might be in your rent you will pay.

I pay 6 and if they upped it to 8 I would still pay it as I like where I am at. Seems kind of silly to me to base your choice of where to live on the cost of electricity.

[Tep]

I've been advised by my lawyer about this a few years ago.

Please check with yours if you're interested in the exact details. I was using Siam Legal at the time.

Their arguments we're:

- Electricity (from the grid) is a state controlled and owned commodity and can not be re-sold (by others than the government) without special license (there are a few exceptions, but they are rare and do not apply to the normal grid) and the prices are fixed and determined by the government.

- When a condominium is charging more than the actual rate stated on the bill from the electric office, they should also charge 7% VAT (as it is a commodity) and thus the condominium should provide an Invoice and in their turn pay this collected VAT to the Tax-Office. But since it is illegal to re-sell electricity from the grid, they can not do this and are therefore actually breaking 2 laws.

I agree with the interpretation given by Siam Law. S47 of the Electricity Industry Act 2007 requires all electricity industry operators to be licensed by the Energy Regulatory Commission www.erc.or.th and I believe apartment owners qualify under this provision as they are reselling electricity. I work for the ERC and I asked the legal department this question. Their interpretation supports the right of the apartment owners to do this as they are the 'end users'. This view was given verbally and I knew enough not to argue with bureaucratic inertia. That view will not be changed unless challenged in the courts (it would be the Adminsitrative Court). Responses to many similar threads indicate that many people accept this state of affairs. I would like to see someone challenge this legally. As a condo owner now, it doesn't affect me but it did in the distant past when I lived in rented apartments. The way that ERC works is in response to submissions from consumers/industry so it would require a complaint to be filed. Since this is the Chiang Mai forum, local residents would file a submission through the Chiang Mai Regional Energy Consumer Committee. This would result in a formal finding by ERC presumably consistent with what the legal department told me. This could then be challenged in the Administrative Court. So a long, complex and probably expensive process.

[Mekong Bob]

How do I determine my basic rate (cost per unit)?

On my bill, I note the basic charge and units consumed, but the resulting number is not precise or consistent from month to month. Is there something I am missing? A special formula I need to use?

Thanks!

[onthedarkside]

Yes there is a fuel index surcharge, usually under the meter reading line/total.

Month/year - month/year = x.xxxx (x being the index factor). Just looking my bill this month and my factor is 0.0000. Must be a mistake, never had a zero before.

Then the next line is the 7% tax factor.

Then the grand total.

[Mekong Bob]

Yes there is a fuel index surcharge, usually under the meter reading line/total.

Month/year - month/year = x.xxxx (x being the index factor). Just looking my bill this month and my factor is 0.0000. Must be a mistake, never had a zero before.

Then the next line is the 7% tax factor.

Then the grand total.

My April bill is attached, and my rate is not 3.75 baht per unit, but rather

3.748933200398804

Any ideas on this? Thanks!

May electricity.pdf

[onthedarkside]

I see your 'index' factor is also 0.0000. 3.74 seems a good rate to me ...

[DowntownAl]

My landlord just bumped my electricity rate through the roof. She showed me her bill for the building I'm in from May, it had a 6.89+- factor which is a business rate. She also said she went to the local office to complain and was told there is another increase on the way. Anyone else seeing increases like this?