Printing Digital Photos

[markg]

The shop i use sometimes cut the tops or bottoms off my 6x4 photos when i have them printed. I frame the photo when i am taking it, and when i look at it on my screen its all fine, but when the shop prints them, they sometimes cut bits off. Not on all photos though. I spoke to them about this by comparing the photo they developed with the one on the screen and they said that the photo was a different size for some reason.

Cant they just "shrink to fit" the 6 x 4 size.

I took a photo of my dad at my friends Thai wedding recently and they cut my dads head off - though its definitely there when i view the file on my computer.

The shop i use is the Kodak shop near the 7/11 near Chalong circle in Phuket - It is also an internet shop.

Any help / tips as to why this happens please

[lopburi3]

Digital cameras do not normally format in the 4x6 ratio (although some such as my Casio can be set to do it); so to make that size will always require some adjustment. You can not just shrink to fit because it will not fit (the ratio is not right). I would advise loading your shots onto computer and using software to crop photos the way you want and then burn to CD and have the CD printed. Or perhaps you could pay extra for a more professional printing? Or if only a few problems just do them on computer first.

[Crossy]

You are suffering from the aspect ratio of your digital camera being 4:3 and the 6x4 paper being the same as 35mm film (3:2).

Digital images are slightly narrower than the equivalent 35mm size, the shop are expanding the width to fill the paper and consequently cropping the top and bottom of the image.

The solutions available (without cutting bits off or distorting the image) are either: find a shop that understand how to print on 4:3 paper or get them printed on 6x4 with a white strip down each side.

Any shop worth its salt will be able to do either for you, try a different outlet.

[markg]

Thank you both for your replies. I understand it a lot more now. The answers are exactly correct in that the shop do indeed appear to be doing the width correctly but not the top or the bottom. (They even had no qualms about chopping Buddhas head off on one photo i took to them to compare with on the computer screen)

I will try to crop them myself on my computer or failing that i will try a couple with the white strip down the side. I am not really sure how to do the cropping - i thought that meant that i cut some of the photo out myself?

Do you know if this white strip is just like a border, about 1 or 2mm wide going all round the photo? If that is the case then i think that is acceptable and i will just specify that in the future.

Regarding using another shop..........does anyone in Phuket know of a shop that can sort this? I felt initially that the Kodak shop i was using would be about as good as i could get. They have impressive wedding photos in the window and i feel that the developing of photos is their main business and the internet is just a sideline.

The Fuji (i think) shop i used near O Malleys bar in Phuket Town didnt do a good enough job with the colour so i dont use them anymore.

I guess i will now have to bear this in mind when i am framing the shot and just make sure that stuff in the extremities is unimportant.

Friends i have spoken to dont complain of this - maybe they just havent noticed.

[Crossy]

Assuming you want pictures that are 4" high (6" wide at 3:2 ratio).

At 4" high your 4:3 digital photos will be 5.3" wide giving a white border of 0.35" each side of 6 x 4 paper (no border top and bottom), normally you would trim these edges off.

The lab's machine ought to be able to do prints of 4" x 5.3" (they usually have paper on 4" rolls) so I'm 90% certain that your problem is purely pilot error on the part of the lab operator.

Not sure how you can explain to them though unless you know a Thai photographer who understands your problem.

[Thairish]

Another thing quite a few print shops seem to do with digital photos, is colour correct them to what they think is correct, causing dark pictures to be lightened up, which adds alot of digital noise/grain. So when I stick mine in for prints I make sure to let them know, no colour correction!

Edited January 5, 2006 by Thairish

[lopburi3]

http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Best/free-resize-2_5.html

Above is a list of some download software to resize photos - don't know which would be best as I use a pay for program when needed (PhotoElf) but suspect some of the free programs could make good crops for you.

Will also move this thread to the Photography section for perhaps some more options and leave a link here as those in tech section seem to be avid at photography also.

[Chang_paarp]

As stated above, the aspect ratio of most digital cameras is the equivelant to 4" x 5.25". The exception is the SLR's. Some cameras have the option to maintain the 4x6 ratio if you looking in the menus.

It is possible to print to 4x6" from the standard sensor settings, but it means some cropping, if you use a reasonabley inteligent lab they will make an inteligent sellection or a reasonable kiosk ( the self serve things) you can make the choice your self.

I will not rant and rave about why the camera folk decided to create yet another format for the poor folk in the rest of the industry. It gets back to the origional screen size of coputer monitors. As a photographic printer it is a major pain in the a....

Now the frame and album manufacturers are yet to wake up to the new size

One thing to remember, if you are going to get anything other than 4" prints take the full file to the lab as each size of enlargement is a different aspect ratio, so the cropping discussion raises it's ugly head again.

BTW, the 4"x6" size photo has only been popular for less than 25 years, since the advent of the mini-lab. Before that there have been a range of formats, look at some of your old family photos.

Yes we (labs) colour correct the photos as most digital camera have a very bad colour space and are very bad at representing high contrast or over and under exposed images. I spend hours every week explaining to Mrs Jones that her photos look crp because the sensor and lens in her new camera is not as good as the disposable camera she gets given free in a promotion.

[Khun Jean]

Another thing quite a few print shops seem to do with digital photos, is colour correct them to what they think is correct, causing dark pictures to be lightened up, which adds alot of digital noise/grain. So when I stick mine in for prints I make sure to let them know, no colour correction!

It is very easy for them to select which part of the picture should be printed. It is not as quick as just pushing a button so most shops don't do it or don't know how.

The brightening up of pictures is typical Thai, never seen it in other countries.

It makes the skin more light so the persons on the pictures are more beautifull.

That some areas will be "overexposured" is of no concern. After trying many shops, and sometimes learning the operator how to use their own machine i still haven't found a shop that does it correctly. I bought a canon inkjet printer and make my own. Unfortunately this will be a lot more expensive and there are concerns about how long a picture printed with an inkjet will last.

If someone find a shop, please let me know. (Bangkok area)

In the Netherlands i have seen other formats that are printed in the right ratio (3:2).

These prints will be 11.4 x 15 cm. It will take some time before machines are adapted (or replaced) to support this format.

Edited January 14, 2006 by Khun Jean

[Thairish]

If someone find a shop, please let me know. (Bangkok area)

I tend to use Kodak shops and make sure to tell them 'mai bap see' (don't change the colours), at a push I will go to a Fuji shop, but that's just my colour preference between brands. But I'm not positive if there is as much difference between the 2 brands when getting digital prints rather than from 35mm film.

FYI The shop I used most was the Kodak one on Soi Aree, Phaholyothin Soi 7.

[hughden]

Khun Jean

Had this place in BKK recommended to me. Certainly appears professional!

http://www.iqlab.co.th/

[Chang_paarp]

If someone find a shop, please let me know. (Bangkok area)

The Konica lab on the corner of Sukumvit and soi11/1 seems to be a good lab. You will find more difference from who operates the lab than the brand of lab they use. Find a lab that is not too big or one that you can communicate with the printer and spend the money and time to get to know them.

I have owned and used Fuji, Agfa and Konica labs. People come to me because of the finished result they recieve not the label on the equipment I use. When I get to know the customers preference I print to that. Some like vivid colours, some like warm colours I print for this.

To quote Ansel Adams the negative (origional file) is the score, the print is the perfomance. If you do not communicate and give the printer the chance to understand what you want, you you will not get what you want. If you are not happy go back and ask them to do it again, or ask why they feel this is a waste of time and paper. I have people expect the lab to fix their bad photograpy or their lack of understanding of their equipment regularly. That is part of my education role, it also helps to build the business, when they listen or understand. I know this sort of service is not natural to many in this industry, but it can help.

[Khun Jean]

Thanx guys. I will go check tem out.

[Nordlys]

The Konica lab on the corner of Sukumvit and soi11/1 seems to be a good lab. You will find more difference from who operates the lab than the brand of lab they use. Find a lab that is not too big or one that you can communicate with the printer and spend the money and time to get to know them.

Good advice.

But IQ lab mentioned above (which I recommended to hughden in another thread) is no such a lab... They do reasonably good job, but at higher price than any other lab I know. And it's not always easy to ask them to redo the job without having to pay.... But being amateur it's not very often I have to ask them to reprint.

[seatimes]

supervision on suriwon, across from the ramada

ask for mr. kosan

good english

if you do not want a photo cropped at any size

ask for "full frame"

any decent photo processor should understand that

[xty]

Instead of having white stripes for shrinking the photo to 6"x4", why don't you use the space for useful information such as date taken and title of the photo?

Recently I created a simple Photoshop CS action and JavaScripts that do:

1. Resize the Canvas to 3:2 which suited for 6"x4" (script detects landscape or portrait mode)

2. Paint some pattern for the background instead of plain white canvas

2. Take some info (original date taken, photo title) from EXIF. The title I put in User Comment field earlier using ACDSee.

3. Draw the info text in additional layer

4. Flatten the layers

5. SaveAs to JPG with different name

I automated (batch process) this action for my 350 sheets of photos to be printed. I leave it running and take a shower. Burn to CD when finished. And off to photo store at MBK for printing

Here are the samples:

Edited February 4, 2006 by xty

[taxout]

There're two issues here.

First, as mentioned above, is aspect ratio. Basically, you've got to crop the photo to the appropriate aspect ratio yourself before printing.

Second is overprinting: even when the aspect ratio perfectly matches the print, you'll usually find that the edges of the image are trimmed because it's not printed precisely to the paper size but printed slightly larger, cutting the edges off the image. Solution is either to allow for some trimming when you crop or print with a border.

[suneeoki]

No need for cropping if you request the correct printing format,

Digital photo formats;

3¾"x5"

4½"x6"

5¼"x7"

6"x8"

8"x10¾"

Traditional photo formats;

3"x5"

4"x6"

5"x7½

6"x8½"

8"x12"

All my photographs are taken with a digital camera at 2560x1920 resolution, so I choose one of the digital photo formats for full prints.

If you would like to crop your photos to other ratios, download Google's free photo software http://picasa.google.com/index.html which makes it easier to crop.

[hughden]

Suneeoki

Interesting post. Can you explain a bit more about digital printing sizes? I assumed that photo paper size defined the print format (e.g. 4R - 4x6).

Thanks

[zzap]

I am interested to invest in some gear to print my own digitals, out here in the sticks there is no lab, but I've been asked for copy-prints many times.

Any ideas, recommendations, potential pitfalls etc.?

[suneeoki]

Suneeoki

Interesting post. Can you explain a bit more about digital printing sizes? I assumed that photo paper size defined the print format (e.g. 4R - 4x6).

Thanks

Hi,

If you have a digital camera, when you go to a digital printers, it is best you choose one of the digital photo formats and not one of the traditional photo formats.

Sorry for not being clear; to clarify, it is not the paper dimensions that affects your chosen print format. The ratio is the figure you need to be careful of, a mismatched ratio will mean you end up with empty bars or loss of side detail (likes the tops of heads being cut off).

If I use my digital camera as an example, this takes photographs at 2560x1920 pixels.

To find out the ratio of my photographs, I divide the large number by the small number, which gives me a ratio of 1.33 (rounded to 2 decimal points).

I then need to check my chosen print paper ratio. So I perform the same calculation on 4½"x6" (6 divide by 4.5), I get a ratio of 1.33

Both the ratios match, meaning I will not lose any details at the sides or have empty bars.

If I go to a printers and choose 4x6, the ratio is 1.5. As this does not match my camera ratio, I will lose detail or have empty bars.

This can be calculated, and depends on whether the width or height is left untouched when they resize to fit.

If width kept the same... 'Photo Width' times 'Print Height' divide by 'Print Width' = Available Photo Height

or

If height kept the same... 'Photo Height' times 'Print Width' divide by 'Print Height' = Available Photo Width.

So using the 2560x1920 photo printed on 6" x 4" paper as an example.

If the printers kept the width (2560), I would calculate 2560x4/6, which only allows a maximum 1706 printing height. This mean I will lose over 200 pixels.

If the printers kept the height (1920), I would calculate 1920x6/4, which gives me 2880 printing width, this is more space than my photo contains, which means I will have a blank area at the sides (this is shown in xty's example pictures).

Edited February 16, 2006 by astral

[Kan Win]

I am interested to invest in some gear to print my own digitals, out here in the sticks there is no lab, but I've been asked for copy-prints many times.

Any ideas, recommendations, potential pitfalls etc.?

Zzap

Recommendation:-

Better to invest in a memory stick 1 gb and then when you are in town go to a lab and get then printed off. (Much cheaper)

Potential pitfalls:-

Printer

Paper

Most of all Ink

That was my experience :-

Printer O.K. som tams.

Paper – Glossy – bad news as it does not Dry enough and quickly, anything that gets on the print will stick there. Better to use (non Gloss Super White) Special InkJet Paper 120 grm (Water Resistant) Special Coated Paper and then tell the software that you are using Super Gloss Paper, change the print dpi to 1200 or higher, higher the better. Worked a treat as long as you framed the print.

Most of all Ink – The cost of this colour ink ( not incuding Black Ink BWT) a couple year ago 1,500 baht aprox for say 10, A4 size photos.

Any ideas Yes

I now get Kodak paper Printed Glossy, plus a spray over it so that it does not damage the photo A4 size, for 120 baht Printed at my local printer in Kan.

Saves all the trouble and grief.

Just me tinking out loud.

Good luck

Yours truly,

Kan Win

[markg]

Suneeoki

Interesting post. Can you explain a bit more about digital printing sizes? I assumed that photo paper size defined the print format (e.g. 4R - 4x6).

Thanks

Hi,

If you have a digital camera, when you go to a digital printers, it is best you choose one of the digital photo formats and not one of the traditional photo formats.

Sorry for not being clear; to clarify, it is not the paper dimensions that affects your chosen print format. The ratio is the figure you need to be careful of, a mismatched ratio will mean you end up with empty bars or loss of side detail (likes the tops of heads being cut off).

If I use my digital camera as an example, this takes photographs at 2560x1920 pixels.

To find out the ratio of my photographs, I divide the large number by the small number, which gives me a ratio of 1.33 (rounded to 2 decimal points).

I then need to check my chosen print paper ratio. So I perform the same calculation on 4½"x6" (6 divide by 4.5), I get a ratio of 1.33

Both the ratios match, meaning I will not lose any details at the sides or have empty bars.

If I go to a printers and choose 4x6, the ratio is 1.5. As this does not match my camera ratio, I will lose detail or have empty bars.

This can be calculated, and depends on whether the width or height is left untouched when they resize to fit.

If width kept the same... 'Photo Width' times 'Print Height' divide by 'Print Width' = Available Photo Height

or

If height kept the same... 'Photo Height' times 'Print Width' divide by 'Print Height' = Available Photo Width.

So using the 2560x1920 photo printed on 6" x 4" paper as an example.

If the printers kept the width (2560), I would calculate 2560x4/6, which only allows a maximum 1706 printing height. This mean I will lose over 200 pixels.

If the printers kept the height (1920), I would calculate 1920x6/4, which gives me 2880 printing width, this is more space than my photo contains, which means I will have a blank area at the sides (this is shown in xty's example pictures).

What an excellent and informative post!

As more and more people are now printing using digital rather than film cameras, i would have thought that the print labs would offer different paper sizes using similar calculations to the above post..............However, I am pretty sure the ones i use in Phuket only offer traditional paper sizes.

i will definitely ask though next time.

It did rather amaze me when it was all explained in this thread, why we are still clinging to outmoded traditional paper sizes for prints. (I am basing the fact that they are outmoded because i read that the big electrical retailers in the UK have now stopped stocking 35mm cameras because no one buys them anymore)