No To America's Use Of U-Tapao: Thai Opinion

[KeyserSoze01]

If China had wanted to "gobble up" the rest of SEA, they would have done so a long time ago. They know the way forward and it is not through military domination. Besides, they have 1+ billion of their own to be concerned with. No, this is simply more fear-mongering by the western military industrial complex in order to keep their little charade going a little longer. They know the gig is up in Afghanistan and their's little hope of a big bang up in Iran, so they are knocking the dust off an old (imaginary) adversary in the Chinese. All of this posturing is nothing more than window dressing for the western sheeple. If they cannot provoke the Chinese into some type of military action, the next boogieman will be eminent threat of invasion by aliens.

[hellodolly]

You mistake the US for the British empire of years ago. (They really should give all the gold, etc. they took from weaker countries back to those countries... and how is it that Billions of acres of land in foreign countries is still held by the British?).

I am offended by the anti-British rant presented here !!!!

but to offer a retort to your statements...only have mention....Iraq, Afrganistan and Oil in the same sentance... ....so lets not start talking about pots ,kettles and blakc shall we..

If you knew what you were talking about you would realize if there was a big winner in the oil industry in Iraq you would know it was France. Not a lot of oil coming out of Afghanistan.

Sounds to me you are still mad that the Americans threw you out before you could rape them.

[trainman34014]

Don't know what all the fuss is about. This is Thailand and nobody gives a stuff about our opinions concerning Global supremacy !

[Soutpeel]

Not a lot of oil coming out of Afghanistan.

Afganistan doesnt produce oil old chap....

Pipeline routes across Afganistan dear boy...Unocal...Thaliban, a rather famous BBQ went down in Texa's to host the people you are now calling terrorists to allow them to build pipelines....Current gentleman in power in Afganistan ?...previous job....consultant on the pay role to ?......you guessed it Unocal as it was then...

[hellodolly]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

Oh bugger, does this mean we better brush up on Mandarin?

and learn how to use chop sticks properly..

Sounds like a argument to get the Thai schools to stop teaching English. waste of time. Wonder which of the Chinese dialects they should teach.

[Soutpeel]

If you knew what you were talking about you would realize if there was a big winner in the oil industry in Iraq you would know it was France.

Source, proof, link....I wasnt aware Halliburton was a French company...

[h90]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

I prefer to stay under Chinese control than under American control....

[Soutpeel]

Sounds to me you are still mad that the Americans threw you out before you could rape them.

you are right in some respects...the British empire failed there, as did the Russian's and the US aint doing much better it seems

[Soutpeel]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

I prefer to stay under Chinese control than under American control....

Yes the food might be better and might reverse the trend of childhood obesity been seen in the world at large due to American "Cusine"..

[Soutpeel]

No, this is simply more fear-mongering by the western military industrial complex in order to keep their little charade going a little longer. They know the gig is up in Afghanistan and their's little hope of a big bang up in Iran, so they are knocking the dust off an old (imaginary) adversary in the Chinese. All of this posturing is nothing more than window dressing for the western sheeple. If they cannot provoke the Chinese into some type of military action, the next boogieman will be eminent threat of invasion by aliens.

Of course no new boogieman...military budgets slashed...no new nice shiny tanks and aircraft carriers to play with...

[Scott]

The topic is Thailand and U-Tapao.

Stay on the topic. Afghanistan and Iraq are covered in other threads; World News Section.

[geriatrickid]

I don't see China as wanting to be a threat to the US. They are suppliers, competitors and have behaved in a friendly manner. No need for this war talk. US just wants to move out of its bases in Japan since the whole country is radiated. US wants to have bases in Asia to maintain the balance of power but it doesn't take resources from anyone. You mistake the US for the British empire of years ago. (They really should give all the gold, etc. they took from weaker countries back to those countries... and how is it that Billions of acres of land in foreign countries is still held by the British?).

???

"China no threat to USA"

"Whole of Japan is radiated"

"US does not take resources from anyone"

"Billions of acres in foreign countries still held by British"

Not quite sure which statement wins the prize for the most inane!!!

Must be yours.

There is no evidence that China is threatening the U.S. In fact US and China are great trade partners.

If you think it is safe to live in Japan then go live there. There are plenty of threads on TV that have discussed this and the news continues to get worse.

There is no evidence that the US took any countries resources. Any oil from the middle east is paid for with our money and we have given our blood and money to stop terrorism around the world.

Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world with over 6.6 billion acres of land and the British didn't pay for it.

You should do your own research and learn more about the world you live in.

I suppose I should take the bait and respond to what I consider a manifestation of paranoia. However, I cannot resist.

China is indeed engaged in hostile activity directed against the USA and to other western nations. The Chinese were recently caught having hacked into the government databases of Canada. This wasn't a small visit, but was a prolonged multiphased breach. They tried it with the USA and India.

Japan is not a glowing radioactive island. While some small areas are contaminated, the radiation is not widespread. Can you cite one reputable scientific report to substantiate your basis?

Your reference to Queen Elizabeth's land holdings is inappropriate. The crown holds land on behalf of the nation. The crown owns government land in Canada and Australia, but that is a legal term. It is not as if she could decide to sell the land and pocket the proceeds. Queen Elizabteh has no say in respect to much of the land held under her name as the respective national governments control that decision.

I suppose you are going to be upset too because the Queen also holds title to the swans on the Thames and people are not allowed to eat them.

[geriatrickid]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

I prefer to stay under Chinese control than under American control....

Right. Well, let's start with this. All those criticisms you post in TVF are forbidden under the Chinese doctrine. They are deemed to be antisocial behaviour. Would you be able to live without access to news sources other than approved Chinese sources? etc. etc. etc.

[Bagwan]

In reality, one could conclude that the US is concerned about Thailand's ability to stay loyal to its partnership as it proved it couldn't with the Japanese in WWII and declared war on the USA. Hence the US's urgency in making U-Tapao an unflagging commitment now. The US is committed to supporting its Asian partners as it has for decades and so far has borne the cost of doing so with the exception of the Japanese navy and the South Korean army as well as the Australian navy and army. It was the US navy that came down to the Coral Sea to battle the Japanese and keep them away from Australia's sheep when Churchill turned his back on them and his resources to Germany. It was the US that came to the assistance of South Korea and lost many lives defending it against North Korea and China. So let's not forget these facts in sizing up the situation. As far as Indonesia is concerned, they were happy to swing over to the Japanese to get rid of the Dutch. Then things went south for them after and they became a very beleaguered Japanese occupation.

Oh dear. Yet another whose knowledge of history was acquired from the fairy tales that Hollywood spin. What UK forces do you suggest could have been made available to assist Australia? Thanks to an interferring Churchill the RN lost a brand new battleship and a battle cruiser during the fight for Malaya. Subseqent sea actions resulted in the loss of many other ships, some Dutch and Aussie as well as RN. The RN, hard pressed due to commitment to Russian and Malta convoys, did lend the USN a fleet carrier in 1942 when they were down to just one, the SARATOGA. Furthermore, Anzac troops were withdrawn from the Mediterranean/Middle East theatre as soon as replacements found and arrived. The decision to concentrate on the European part of WW2 was a joint decision by the Allied Powers.

So Korea was all about the US was it? Such a notion will rev up a more than a few Aussies and Kiwis. Ever hear about the 'Glorious Glosters'? Look here and learn. Http://www.britains-smallwars.com/korea/ships.html I believe that evenThailand got involved and sent a few medical teams. Korea was very much a UN affair, the UN actually gave me a medal for the bit part that I played in it. I think that you should check with Indonesian historians in respect of whether the populace actualy welcomed the Japanese. After Nanking only the insane would welcome them. I agree that they had no great love of the Dutch, first cousins to Afrikaners who still have no kind thoughts for anybody of a different skin colour.

I agree that in sizing up a situation all the facts should be taken into consideration: what you are spouting could hardly be classified as factual.

[smutcakes]

I for one would welcome my new Chinese overlords.

I would prefer to be Israeli than American

[Sateev]

Think the writer of this piece is being a little naive here...just say no

If the US wants to use UTP for what ever reason, they will get it, if it serves the US's interests...resistance is futile...as they will just do the same as they have done in other places...

"just say no".........."just say invade"..............."mission accomplished"...............

This is nonsense. The US was denied continued use of Subic Bay in the Philippines during the Cory Aquino "People Power" days, in the face of increased Filipino nationalism. No invasion occurred, and no long-lasting ill will was borne by the Republic of the Philippines.

Thailand accepts US foreign aid hand over fist, and the writer of the Nation piece is, as usual, talking out of his a**. Thailand ALWAYS plays both sides against the middle, and has done so for its entire history. If they thought for a minute that China would somehow instigate and prevail in a regional war, the PRC flag would already be hoisted here. The writer also refers to the US as 'fiscally bankrupt', which is again nonsense, at least when considered in the world context. While it's not doing as well as usual, the US is still quite strong, and China has its own fiscal issues coming home to roost.

This is nothing more than the usual pandering to Thai emotional lability. Thailand will, of course, allow the use of U Tapao, because it's in its interest to do so, if for no other reason than to counterbalance China.

Thais have a short memory, and most of the ones talking this crap weren't even born when the US was preventing them from being overrun by Communists. And since the schools don't even teach 20th century Asian history, most haven't a clue about who did what for whom.

More Nation blather.

[Bagwan]

At the end of the day China will swallow the entire SEA region if the USA is not here to stop them. The war of water will come soon and China will win.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

I prefer to stay under Chinese control than under American control....

Right. Well, let's start with this. All those criticisms you post in TVF are forbidden under the Chinese doctrine. They are deemed to be antisocial behaviour. Would you be able to live without access to news sources other than approved Chinese sources? etc. etc. etc.

Well the Thais seem to be able to manage to swallow the propaganda that their Government spews out.

[folium]

I don't see China as wanting to be a threat to the US. They are suppliers, competitors and have behaved in a friendly manner. No need for this war talk. US just wants to move out of its bases in Japan since the whole country is radiated. US wants to have bases in Asia to maintain the balance of power but it doesn't take resources from anyone. You mistake the US for the British empire of years ago. (They really should give all the gold, etc. they took from weaker countries back to those countries... and how is it that Billions of acres of land in foreign countries is still held by the British?).

???

"China no threat to USA"

"Whole of Japan is radiated"

"US does not take resources from anyone"

"Billions of acres in foreign countries still held by British"

Not quite sure which statement wins the prize for the most inane!!!

Must be yours.

There is no evidence that China is threatening the U.S. In fact US and China are great trade partners.

If you think it is safe to live in Japan then go live there. There are plenty of threads on TV that have discussed this and the news continues to get worse.

There is no evidence that the US took any countries resources. Any oil from the middle east is paid for with our money and we have given our blood and money to stop terrorism around the world.

Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world with over 6.6 billion acres of land and the British didn't pay for it.

You should do your own research and learn more about the world you live in.

I suppose I should take the bait and respond to what I consider a manifestation of paranoia. However, I cannot resist.

China is indeed engaged in hostile activity directed against the USA and to other western nations. The Chinese were recently caught having hacked into the government databases of Canada. This wasn't a small visit, but was a prolonged multiphased breach. They tried it with the USA and India.

Japan is not a glowing radioactive island. While some small areas are contaminated, the radiation is not widespread. Can you cite one reputable scientific report to substantiate your basis?

Your reference to Queen Elizabeth's land holdings is inappropriate. The crown holds land on behalf of the nation. The crown owns government land in Canada and Australia, but that is a legal term. It is not as if she could decide to sell the land and pocket the proceeds. Queen Elizabteh has no say in respect to much of the land held under her name as the respective national governments control that decision.

I suppose you are going to be upset too because the Queen also holds title to the swans on the Thames and people are not allowed to eat them.

Thanks GK, that spared me from having to rebut this extraordinary world view.

[Bagwan]

Think the writer of this piece is being a little naive here...just say no

If the US wants to use UTP for what ever reason, they will get it, if it serves the US's interests...resistance is futile...as they will just do the same as they have done in other places...

"just say no".........."just say invade"..............."mission accomplished"...............

This is nonsense. The US was denied continued use of Subic Bay in the Philippines during the Cory Aquino "People Power" days, in the face of increased Filipino nationalism. No invasion occurred, and no long-lasting ill will was borne by the Republic of the Philippines.

Thailand accepts US foreign aid hand over fist, and the writer of the Nation piece is, as usual, talking out of his a**. Thailand ALWAYS plays both sides against the middle, and has done so for its entire history. If they thought for a minute that China would somehow instigate and prevail in a regional war, the PRC flag would already be hoisted here. The writer also refers to the US as 'fiscally bankrupt', which is again nonsense, at least when considered in the world context. While it's not doing as well as usual, the US is still quite strong, and China has its own fiscal issues coming home to roost.

This is nothing more than the usual pandering to Thai emotional lability. Thailand will, of course, allow the use of U Tapao, because it's in its interest to do so, if for no other reason than to counterbalance China.

Thais have a short memory, and most of the ones talking this crap weren't even born when the US was preventing them from being overrun by Communists. And since the schools don't even teach 20th century Asian history, most haven't a clue about who did what for whom.

More Nation blather.

I obviously haven't been paying attention. When did the US prevent the Commies over running Thailand? I thought that the Thais handled that as an internal matter themselves, in fact many of the 'Commies" who took to the jungles are now in positions of power.

[Sateev]

Think the writer of this piece is being a little naive here...just say no

If the US wants to use UTP for what ever reason, they will get it, if it serves the US's interests...resistance is futile...as they will just do the same as they have done in other places...

"just say no".........."just say invade"..............."mission accomplished"...............

This is nonsense. The US was denied continued use of Subic Bay in the Philippines during the Cory Aquino "People Power" days, in the face of increased Filipino nationalism. No invasion occurred, and no long-lasting ill will was borne by the Republic of the Philippines.

Thailand accepts US foreign aid hand over fist, and the writer of the Nation piece is, as usual, talking out of his a**. Thailand ALWAYS plays both sides against the middle, and has done so for its entire history. If they thought for a minute that China would somehow instigate and prevail in a regional war, the PRC flag would already be hoisted here. The writer also refers to the US as 'fiscally bankrupt', which is again nonsense, at least when considered in the world context. While it's not doing as well as usual, the US is still quite strong, and China has its own fiscal issues coming home to roost.

This is nothing more than the usual pandering to Thai emotional lability. Thailand will, of course, allow the use of U Tapao, because it's in its interest to do so, if for no other reason than to counterbalance China.

Thais have a short memory, and most of the ones talking this crap weren't even born when the US was preventing them from being overrun by Communists. And since the schools don't even teach 20th century Asian history, most haven't a clue about who did what for whom.

More Nation blather.

I obviously haven't been paying attention. When did the US prevent the Commies over running Thailand? I thought that the Thais handled that as an internal matter themselves, in fact many of the 'Commies" who took to the jungles are now in positions of power.

There are plenty of Thai home-grown communist factions, true, but what I'm referring to is the reason U Tapao and Korat air bases were allowed to exist in the first place. Thailand was all agog with love of the US for keeping communists from without in check.

Read a bit.

[geriatrickid]

I for one would welcome my new Chinese overlords.

I would prefer to be Israeli than American

Ahhhhh, so you can be better placed for the Rapture?

[jonclark]

One thing always confuses me on TV and that is the gloating or smugness that many expats feel towards the economic problems many of their home countries or 'friendly' countries are experiencing. As if the difficulties being experienced by these countries and their peoples are in someway gratifying these posters. If they are ashamed to be American, British etc, then perhaps they should just return their passports.

The Thais support their country (warts and all), perhaps there is a lesson there for us farangs?

[billd766]

I don't see China as wanting to be a threat to the US. They are suppliers, competitors and have behaved in a friendly manner. No need for this war talk. US just wants to move out of its bases in Japan since the whole country is radiated. US wants to have bases in Asia to maintain the balance of power but it doesn't take resources from anyone. You mistake the US for the British empire of years ago. (They really should give all the gold, etc. they took from weaker countries back to those countries... and how is it that Billions of acres of land in foreign countries is still held by the British?).

???

"China no threat to USA"

"Whole of Japan is radiated"

"US does not take resources from anyone"

"Billions of acres in foreign countries still held by British"

Not quite sure which statement wins the prize for the most inane!!!

Must be yours.

There is no evidence that China is threatening the U.S. In fact US and China are great trade partners.

If you think it is safe to live in Japan then go live there. There are plenty of threads on TV that have discussed this and the news continues to get worse.

There is no evidence that the US took any countries resources. Any oil from the middle east is paid for with our money and we have given our blood and money to stop terrorism around the world.

Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world with over 6.6 billion acres of land and the British didn't pay for it.

You should do your own research and learn more about the world you live in.

I agree with Soutpeel.

Please prove that Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world as that comes to 6600000000 Acres = 26709252.38784 Square Kilometers.

That is 26 million seven hundred and nine thousand two hundred and 52 and a bit square kilometres

A handy place to look might be here.

http://hypertextbook...anielChen.shtml

Science Desk Reference American Scientific. New York: Wiley, 1999: 180. "Surface: Land surface 150,000,000 sq km, 57,500,000 sq mi." 150,000,000 km²

Do you want to try again or are you 100% certain that Queen Elizabeth actually personally owns about 20% of the world?

Edited June 8, 2012 by billd766

[folium]

I don't see China as wanting to be a threat to the US. They are suppliers, competitors and have behaved in a friendly manner. No need for this war talk. US just wants to move out of its bases in Japan since the whole country is radiated. US wants to have bases in Asia to maintain the balance of power but it doesn't take resources from anyone. You mistake the US for the British empire of years ago. (They really should give all the gold, etc. they took from weaker countries back to those countries... and how is it that Billions of acres of land in foreign countries is still held by the British?).

???

"China no threat to USA"

"Whole of Japan is radiated"

"US does not take resources from anyone"

"Billions of acres in foreign countries still held by British"

Not quite sure which statement wins the prize for the most inane!!!

Must be yours.

There is no evidence that China is threatening the U.S. In fact US and China are great trade partners.

If you think it is safe to live in Japan then go live there. There are plenty of threads on TV that have discussed this and the news continues to get worse.

There is no evidence that the US took any countries resources. Any oil from the middle east is paid for with our money and we have given our blood and money to stop terrorism around the world.

Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world with over 6.6 billion acres of land and the British didn't pay for it.

You should do your own research and learn more about the world you live in.

I agree with Soutpeel.

Please prove that Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world as that comes to 6600000000 Acres = 26709252.38784 Square Kilometers.

That is 26 million seven hundred and nine thousand two hundred and 52 and a bit square kilometres

A handy place to look might be here.

http://hypertextbook...anielChen.shtml

Science Desk Reference American Scientific. New York: Wiley, 1999: 180. "Surface: Land surface 150,000,000 sq km, 57,500,000 sq mi." 150,000,000 km²

Do you want to try again or are you 100% certain that Queen Elizabeth actually personally owns about 20% of the world?

What this ludicrous claim is based on is the concept of Commonwealth Realm see below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_realm

The Queen is nominally head of state of these countries, but she does not own the land in any legal capacity (ie she cannot sell or otherwise dispose of it). Also it seems that the original claim exaggerated by about 8 million square kms the amount of land the Queen "owns".

[Soutpeel]

I don't see China as wanting to be a threat to the US. They are suppliers, competitors and have behaved in a friendly manner. No need for this war talk. US just wants to move out of its bases in Japan since the whole country is radiated. US wants to have bases in Asia to maintain the balance of power but it doesn't take resources from anyone. You mistake the US for the British empire of years ago. (They really should give all the gold, etc. they took from weaker countries back to those countries... and how is it that Billions of acres of land in foreign countries is still held by the British?).

???

"China no threat to USA"

"Whole of Japan is radiated"

"US does not take resources from anyone"

"Billions of acres in foreign countries still held by British"

Not quite sure which statement wins the prize for the most inane!!!

Must be yours.

There is no evidence that China is threatening the U.S. In fact US and China are great trade partners.

If you think it is safe to live in Japan then go live there. There are plenty of threads on TV that have discussed this and the news continues to get worse.

There is no evidence that the US took any countries resources. Any oil from the middle east is paid for with our money and we have given our blood and money to stop terrorism around the world.

Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world with over 6.6 billion acres of land and the British didn't pay for it.

You should do your own research and learn more about the world you live in.

I agree with Soutpeel.

Please prove that Queen Elizabeth is the largest landowner in the world as that comes to 6600000000 Acres = 26709252.38784 Square Kilometers.

That is 26 million seven hundred and nine thousand two hundred and 52 and a bit square kilometres

A handy place to look might be here.

http://hypertextbook...anielChen.shtml

Science Desk Reference American Scientific. New York: Wiley, 1999: 180. "Surface: Land surface 150,000,000 sq km, 57,500,000 sq mi." 150,000,000 km²

Do you want to try again or are you 100% certain that Queen Elizabeth actually personally owns about 20% of the world?

QE II....doesnt, but i am pretty sure Queen Victoria would have during the days of empire....Rule Britannia.. and if Britain didnt bow down the limp wristed liberal's and gave away her empire pretty sure we wouldnt have half the problems we have in the world to day...just send in the RN I say old chap..tally ho...

[seminomadic]

The PRC is bullying everyone in the region. The Vietnamese have a much longer history with the Chinese than with the Americans.

From what I have read, the Vietnamese HATE the Chinese.

.....yes and the Vietnamese are partial to the US as I understand it ?....lets not talk about bully boy tactics shall we....what was the quote "your either with us or against us".....in reference to one the US's oldest allies....the French...

How is this a rebuttal in any way to Evil Dr's post? Are you saying the Vietnamese are not currently partnering with the US?

[kerryk]

It took a couple of years to build U-Tapao; the 11,000 foot runway was opened in 1966. It was a front line US Air Force facility from 1966 to 1975. 80% of all air strikes against North Vietnam originated in Thailand. The US deployed 30 to 50,000 combat troops in Thailand and they were withdrawn in 1976 at the request of the Thai government. The whole Thai operation was hush hush because of a lot of Laos and Cambodian stuff among other reasons.

The chapel is still there. It is next to a Tesco Lotus now.

If you want to see what the place looked like in 1969. Edited June 8, 2012 by kerryk

[Soutpeel]

The PRC is bullying everyone in the region. The Vietnamese have a much longer history with the Chinese than with the Americans.

From what I have read, the Vietnamese HATE the Chinese.

.....yes and the Vietnamese are partial to the US as I understand it ?....lets not talk about bully boy tactics shall we....what was the quote "your either with us or against us".....in reference to one the US's oldest allies....the French...

the Vietnamese are not currently partnering with the US?

Which US business school did you go to ?....."partnering"... .....the US has never "partnered" with anyone.....while they are winning something..its the US this, the US that...minute they start loosing its "coalition forces" and our allies...

[OzMick]

The PRC is bullying everyone in the region. The Vietnamese have a much longer history with the Chinese than with the Americans.

From what I have read, the Vietnamese HATE the Chinese.

.....yes and the Vietnamese are partial to the US as I understand it ?....lets not talk about bully boy tactics shall we....what was the quote "your either with us or against us".....in reference to one the US's oldest allies....the French...

Actually the VN fought a quite nasty little war with the Chinese after they won they won what they call "the American war."

When VN invaded Cambodia, China invaded northern VN while their best troops were in the far south, only to find that VN border guards and militia were more than capable, and were forced to withdraw. You won't find it mentioned in Chinese history books.

[Soutpeel]

It took a couple of years to build U-Tapao; the 11,000 foot runway was opened in 1966. It was a front line US Air Force facility from 1966 to 1975. 80% of all air strikes against North Vietnam originated in Thailand. The US deployed 30 to 50,000 combat troops in Thailand and they were withdrawn in 1976 at the request of the Thai government. The whole Thai operation was hush hush because of a lot of Laos and Cambodian stuff among other reasons.

The chapel is still there. It is next to a Tesco Lotus now.

[media=]

If[/media] you want to see what the place looked like in 1069.

"1069"....one hopes you are talking about 1969..kerryk...or me and you need to talk about the wright brothers...etc...and my remarks are not to be interpeted as anti-american..