I am not a consumer of much media. Consequently I don't buy into the toxicity that you've embraced.

Someone seems to read all the far-left blogs every night and then repeat the talking points on Thai Visa the next day.

Oh so you think the perfect free market can provide health care access for all Americans. More naive than I even first thought! Yes that is a radically right wing/libertarian point of view, whether you reject the label or not. Hasn't worked for any advanced country and can't possibly work in the US either.

No, I don't. I'm just pointing out that this status quo is brought to you not by the Democrats or the Republicans but by very narrow specific special interests. The REAL problem is campaig finance reform. Take away the money and all this manufactured toxicity you see will be diminished greatly.

Preaching to the converted. I've been for single payer universal health care all my life and yes big money interests corrupt both parties. But where I differ from you is your naive belief that some progress isn't worth something. Obama is ALSO for single payer but he determined it was politically impossible. Given the grief he has attracted by trying to implement a CONSERVATIVE idea, Romneycare mandates, the evidence is he was right. The USA is just too politically retarded to embrace what most civilized countries have figured out already. Its sad but if you can't face the political realities, there is no hope to do ANYTHING.

I am not a consumer of much media. Consequently I don't buy into the toxicity that you've embraced.

Someone seems to read all the far-left blogs every night and then repeat the talking points on Thai Visa the next day.

Good to hear from you. Noticed your silence here since the big loss for y'all. How does it feel now that you've lost your argument that RomneyOBAMACARE is not constitutional?

BTW, I would suggest this to the Obama campaign. Not only should they fully OWN and defend Obamacare, they should refer to it as RomneyOBAMACARE to constantly remind people of the shameless hypocrisy of their unworthy opponent.

Edited June 30, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Oh so you think the perfect free market can provide health care access for all Americans. More naive than I even first thought! Yes that is a radically right wing/libertarian point of view, whether you reject the label or not. Hasn't worked for any advanced country and can't possibly work in the US either.

No, I don't. I'm just pointing out that this status quo is brought to you not by the Democrats or the Republicans but by very narrow specific special interests. The REAL problem is campaig finance reform. Take away the money and all this manufactured toxicity you see will be diminished greatly.

Preaching to the converted. I've been for single payer universal health care all my life and yes big money interests corrupt both parties. But where I differ from you is your naive belief that some progress isn't worth something. Obama is ALSO for single payer but he determined it was politically impossible. Given the grief he has attracted by trying to implement a CONSERVATIVE idea, Romneycare mandates, the evidence is he was right. The USA is just too politically retarded to embrace what most civilized countries have figured out already. Its sad but if you can't face the political realities, there is no hope to do ANYTHING.

The European Union is a good example of your way of thinking. It is a misbuilt house. People argued at the time that it was SOMETHING, which is better than NOTHING, but you can't fix a misbuilt house. You can only codge together fixes that become more and more expensive and take you away from what you wanted to begin with. In the end it falls down.

How does it feel now that you've lost your argument that RomneyOBAMACARE is not constitutional?

Four Supreme Court judges agreed with me and Roberts had to change the law in order to let it stand, so I didn't actually lose the argument. However, I'm more interested in Obama losing the election in November and this decision on a very unpopular law will help..

How does it feel now that you've lost your argument that RomneyOBAMACARE is not constitutional?

Four Supreme Court judges agreed with me and Roberts had to change the law in order to let it stand, so I didn't actually lose the argument. However, I'm more interested in Obama losing the election in November and this decision on a very unpopular law will help..

It is not an unpoular IDEA however. Single payor WILL be adopted in America at some point as coverage falls away from employers. Same like defined benefits pensions fell away and IRA's and 401k's replaced it. I'm suggesting that what has been cobbled together thusfar is a horrible foundation from which to build on. The Republicans should have come up with a better one, but it is a party at the mercy of it's minor cults, same as the Democrats. That's going to reverse someday and I'm placing bets that it will be one day in the not too distant future (5-10 years)

I'm all for single payer, but I am afraid that we can not afford it right now.

I'm all for single payer, but I am afraid that we can not afford it right now.

OK, there's common ground. Let's start there. We want single payor, so how do we get there? Make the objective the priority. That's where the dialogue should be, not on politics but I'm human need. BTW, I'm of the opinion we cannot afford NOT to have it. I know you haven't been back to the states in a while, but you would not believe how expensive individual healthcare can be. It can bankrupt families, even relatively well to do families over sometimes not even life thretening procedures. What is the social cost of that? I maintain it is far higher, both socially and economically and is a threat to the American way of life and it's place in this world.

I agree with all that, but also see what is happening to countries that have it. I am all for a lot of social programs that we may not be able to afford if things keep going the way that they have been.

Let me throw in a little more food for thought.

Who on here actually believes the Federal government can run and manage anything without mucking it up?

How can you possibly believe the government bureaucrats can even hope to run 1/6th of the largest economy in the world?

Get a grip, folks. Remember who we are dealing with here.

Yes, single payer is the only answer. But like I said, Americans are politically retarded and/or the corporate interests remain unbeatable even more so with Citizens United. I have no reason to be optimistic about single payer actually happening.

Edited June 30, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Let me throw in a little more food for thought.

Who on here actually believes the Federal government can run and manage anything without mucking it up?

How can you possibly believe the government bureaucrats can even hope to run 1/6th of the largest economy in the world?

Get a grip, folks. Remember who we are dealing with here.

I agree and I'd love to see someone list examples of well-run gov't programs. Something to give us more confidence that they can administer our health care system.

Everyone would love quality, affordable healthcare. But can the federal gov't be trusted to run it well? I doubt it.

Oh so you think the perfect free market can provide health care access for all Americans. More naive than I even first thought! Yes that is a radically right wing/libertarian point of view, whether you reject the label or not. Hasn't worked for any advanced country and can't possibly work in the US either.

No, I don't. I'm just pointing out that this status quo is brought to you not by the Democrats or the Republicans but by very narrow specific special interests. The REAL problem is campaig finance reform. Take away the money and all this manufactured toxicity you see will be diminished greatly.

Preaching to the converted. I've been for single payer universal health care all my life and yes big money interests corrupt both parties. But where I differ from you is your naive belief that some progress isn't worth something.

That wasn't your position when you were talking about gay marriage. Then it was all or nothing.

Oh so you think the perfect free market can provide health care access for all Americans. More naive than I even first thought! Yes that is a radically right wing/libertarian point of view, whether you reject the label or not. Hasn't worked for any advanced country and can't possibly work in the US either.

No, I don't. I'm just pointing out that this status quo is brought to you not by the Democrats or the Republicans but by very narrow specific special interests. The REAL problem is campaig finance reform. Take away the money and all this manufactured toxicity you see will be diminished greatly.

Preaching to the converted. I've been for single payer universal health care all my life and yes big money interests corrupt both parties. But where I differ from you is your naive belief that some progress isn't worth something.

That wasn't your position when you were talking about gay marriage. Then it was all or nothing.

That is wrong and a complete misrepresentation of my position on gay marriage. However, this isn't the place to talk about it. I have discussed that many times elsewhere and if you really want clarification, PM me. But again, no, what you have just said about my opinion is completely wrong and also considering how off topic it is here, NOT appreciated.

Edited June 30, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Let me throw in a little more food for thought.

Who on here actually believes the Federal government can run and manage anything without mucking it up?

How can you possibly believe the government bureaucrats can even hope to run 1/6th of the largest economy in the world?

Get a grip, folks. Remember who we are dealing with here.

I agree and I'd love to see someone list examples of well-run gov't programs. Something to give us more confidence that they can administer our health care system.

Everyone would love quality, affordable healthcare. But can the federal gov't be trusted to run it well? I doubt it.

Supposedly the best healthcare system in the world:

http://en.wikipedia...._care_in_France

The US is rated 37th in the world in health care. Not single payer, and it rates poorly. The last I heard France is number one is close. So right wing skeptics, are you saying France, Canada and so many other advanced countries are superior to Yankee know how?

My post about France was in answer to Chuckd's question about well-run health services. If I'd known you were going to kidnap it to, yet again, insult those who disagree with you I'd not have posted it.

Edited June 30, 201214 yr by endure

My post about France was in answer to Chuckd's question about well-run health services. If I'd known you were going to kidnap it to, yet again, insult those who disagree with you I'd not have posted it.

Thanks for sharing. I think my post was on point. Obviously, many governments are perfectly capable of running health care systems. The USA can do it too, but due to socialism-phobia and the power of corporate interests, the chances of the people rising up to make that happen are VERY remote.

My post about France was in answer to Chuckd's question about well-run health services. If I'd known you were going to kidnap it to, yet again, insult those who disagree with you I'd not have posted it.

Thanks for sharing. I think my post was on point. Obviously, many governments are perfectly capable of running health care systems. The USA can do it too, but due to socialism-phobia and the power of corporate interests, the chances of the people rising up to make that happen are VERY remote.

Very remote when you include the very entities you need to shed your nation of as part of the process. Giving them a "seat at the table". All because they're big financial supporters. Show them the door.

Very remote when you include the very entities you need to shed your nation of as part of the process. Giving them a "seat at the table". All because they're big financial supporters. Show them the door.

I get your point of view but I don't get how you can't say how nearly impossible it would have been to pass single payer and cut off big insurance, big pharma, and big hospital. These are beasts. I do criticize Obama. He knew he couldn't get single payer to start, but he should have STARTED the negotiations there and not give that up from the start. If he had it seems to me the end result of the sausage would have probably been better than Obamacare.

Edited June 30, 201214 yr by Jingthing

Let me throw in a little more food for thought.

Who on here actually believes the Federal government can run and manage anything without mucking it up?

How can you possibly believe the government bureaucrats can even hope to run 1/6th of the largest economy in the world?

Get a grip, folks. Remember who we are dealing with here.

I agree and I'd love to see someone list examples of well-run gov't programs. Something to give us more confidence that they can administer our health care system.

Everyone would love quality, affordable healthcare. But can the federal gov't be trusted to run it well? I doubt it.

Supposedly the best healthcare system in the world:

http://en.wikipedia...._care_in_France

I thought it was clear I was talking about American government programs. But, if the French want to come over and run ours, why not? Their English is probably at least as good as a lot of US gov't employees.

My post about France was in answer to Chuckd's question about well-run health services. If I'd known you were going to kidnap it to, yet again, insult those who disagree with you I'd not have posted it.

He didn't ask about foreign government run health services. He asked about (US) Federal government bureaucrats running anything well. That is a really short list.

Edited June 30, 201214 yr by koheesti

Isn't part of the high cost problem that people don't have to pay for it themselves? Gov't programs will reimburse the health providers & drug companies whatever they charge. As will insurance companies. ("oh, don't worry, insurance will cover it"). As for lawyers, they'll sue anyone for $100 million (and take their 33% fee) and anyone with at least half a brain knows that is passed on to the consumers.

Same principle with university costs being sky high because easy government student loans will cover it.

Or business travelers pay more for everything because it is coming out of the "rich" company's pocket, not the employee's.

When you are paying for your lunch, you might get the daily special, when someone else is paying, live it up and get the steak.

Back to health care, instead of focusing on how we will pay the high cost, let's get the high cost down first, then figure out how to pay it.

OMG, this isn't rocket science. Just COPY successful government health programs in the countries which have full access, better health outcomes, and MUCH lower costs. They would be happy to advice us. The USA needs help!

My post about France was in answer to Chuckd's question about well-run health services. If I'd known you were going to kidnap it to, yet again, insult those who disagree with you I'd not have posted it.

He didn't ask about foreign government run health services. He asked about (US) Federal government bureaucrats running anything well. That is a really short list.

So the US government is incomparably more inefficient than other governments? I don't think so. They're as crap as each other. You appear to be talking yourself into a corner of denial.

My post about France was in answer to Chuckd's question about well-run health services. If I'd known you were going to kidnap it to, yet again, insult those who disagree with you I'd not have posted it.

He didn't ask about foreign government run health services. He asked about (US) Federal government bureaucrats running anything well. That is a really short list.

So the US government is incomparably more inefficient than other governments? I don't think so. They're as crap as each other. You appear to be talking yourself into a corner of denial.

I suppose I know as much about gov't programs in your country as you do in mine. Which means not much. Perhaps I'm wrong though and you can name some of the successes?

Isn't part of the high cost problem that people don't have to pay for it themselves? Gov't programs will reimburse the health providers & drug companies whatever they charge. As will insurance companies. ("oh, don't worry, insurance will cover it"). As for lawyers, they'll sue anyone for $100 million (and take their 33% fee) and anyone with at least half a brain knows that is passed on to the consumers.

Same principle with university costs being sky high because easy government student loans will cover it.

Or business travelers pay more for everything because it is coming out of the "rich" company's pocket, not the employee's.

When you are paying for your lunch, you might get the daily special, when someone else is paying, live it up and get the steak.

Back to health care, instead of focusing on how we will pay the high cost, let's get the high cost down first, then figure out how to pay it.

How do you find healthcare in the European country that you live in? Is it better or worse, more expensive or cheaper than it would be if you lived in the USA?

OMG, this isn't rocket science. Just COPY successful government health programs in the countries which have full access, better health outcomes, and MUCH lower costs. They would be happy to advice us. The USA needs help!

This coming from the guy who calls others naive and simplistic?

My post about France was in answer to Chuckd's question about well-run health services. If I'd known you were going to kidnap it to, yet again, insult those who disagree with you I'd not have posted it.

He didn't ask about foreign government run health services. He asked about (US) Federal government bureaucrats running anything well. That is a really short list.

So the US government is incomparably more inefficient than other governments? I don't think so. They're as crap as each other. You appear to be talking yourself into a corner of denial.

I suppose I know as much about gov't programs in your country as you do in mine. Which means not much. Perhaps I'm wrong though and you can name some of the successes?

Healthcare in France seems to be fairly successful as I pointed out in my post. If you read the Wiki article you'll see that it's a mixture of private enterprise and government intervention.

How do you find healthcare in the European country that you live in? Is it better or worse, more expensive or cheaper than it would be if you lived in the USA?

Cheaper, yes. Better, not really. But this is still where I would choose to get most things done - because of the price. This is where my GP is and has been since the late 90's. Even when I don't live here I still come back in the summer and get a check up. I broke my elbow in 2006 and they messed it up (only cost $2000 for surgery + 10 days in the hospital so I guess I shouldn't complain). I checked into the hospital (emergency room) on Saturday afternoon. Didn't get to see a doctor until Sunday. Had surgery on Tuesday. Out the door less than a week later. Fours years later in 2010 they did a fine job on the arthroscopic knee surgery ($660). So fine I thought of getting into the medical tourism business. Prices have gone up in recent years with joining the EU and then the Euro (like everything else) but still much more affordable than in the USA. A friend is scheduled to get heart surgery AND a liver transplant this October (he said the docs are on holiday during the summer). I'll post here someplace the results.