Phi Phi Poisonings: Autopsy Results On Canadian Sisters ‘Inconclusive’

[Chopperboy]

Ok, I'm not saying this was accidental or deliberate or that this was due to chlorpyrifos, just making a point for discussion.

My point being that if the room was sprayed with excessive amounts of some incorrectly mixed pesticide (or some other concoction), this would result in oral consumption, inhalation and skin absorption, not one or the other.

Certainly in the case of my Koi it would have been a combination of all three; Pesticide ends up in the water, the fish "breath" it, get their skin covered in it and consumed it. Surely it would be much the same with people in a "tainted" hotel room?

Please check here:

http://photo-journ.c.../#axzz1VC3kUrUx

Edited July 4, 2012 by Chopperboy

[canuckamuck]

Ok, I'm not saying this was accidental or deliberate or that this was due to chlorpyrifos, just making a point for discussion.

My point being that if the room was sprayed with excessive amounts of some incorrectly mixed pesticide (or some other concoction), this would result in oral consumption, inhalation and skin absorption, not one or the other.

Certainly in the case of my Koi it would have been a combination of all three; Pesticide ends up in the water, the fish "breath" it, get their skin covered in it and consumed it. Surely it would be much the same with people in a "tainted" hotel room?

Please check here:

http://photo-journ.c.../#axzz1VC3kUrUx

Good link Chopperboy. I agree that Chloropyrifos seems to be a very unlikely cause of death for the Chiang Mai and the Phi Phi deaths.

.

[maidu]

any news from the forensic scientists in Canada?

[annabel]

any news from the forensic scientists in Canada?

Of course not ...we are now July 7th going on 8th and nothing since July 5th ... TV members obviously do not have such long term memories....It's now been burried and forgotten till the next episode and then the previous Phiphi stories and this one and the Chiangmai ones will all be brought up once again in a memory flash ... Pfff!! So sickening to see 33 or more pages of TV people venting and criticizing and trying to prove the causes and verdicts and then Pouf!!! all are gone back to their bar stools somewhere to harrass each other about their egotiscal knowledge of everything ... as I said before when the next unfortunate events happens again they will all be back on the loop to show their bar stool skills ... Oye someone save us !!!

[mommysboy]

any news from the forensic scientists in Canada?

Of course not ...we are now July 7th going on 8th and nothing since July 5th ... TV members obviously do not have such long term memories....It's now been burried and forgotten till the next episode and then the previous Phiphi stories and this one and the Chiangmai ones will all be brought up once again in a memory flash ... Pfff!! So sickening to see 33 or more pages of TV people venting and criticizing and trying to prove the causes and verdicts and then Pouf!!! all are gone back to their bar stools somewhere to harrass each other about their egotiscal knowledge of everything ... as I said before when the next unfortunate events happens again they will all be back on the loop to show their bar stool skills ... Oye someone save us !!!

Here! Here! What a great posting! I hope this doesn't go out of awareness. This was a dreadful incident howsoever caused. Whatever caused the poisoning, it clearly is not a substance that should be in just anyones' hands. It's a chilling thought that someone has access to poisons that howsoever introduced, be it in food, in a pool or on a bed can cause such terrible and catastrophic symptoms. And the fact that drug taking has been ruled out, surely confirms this is homicide, accidental or otherwise!

[smedly]

any news from the forensic scientists in Canada?

Of course not ...we are now July 7th going on 8th and nothing since July 5th ... TV members obviously do not have such long term memories....It's now been burried and forgotten till the next episode and then the previous Phiphi stories and this one and the Chiangmai ones will all be brought up once again in a memory flash ... Pfff!! So sickening to see 33 or more pages of TV people venting and criticizing and trying to prove the causes and verdicts and then Pouf!!! all are gone back to their bar stools somewhere to harrass each other about their egotiscal knowledge of everything ... as I said before when the next unfortunate events happens again they will all be back on the loop to show their bar stool skills ... Oye someone save us !!!

and what would you like to see happen ?

The discussion has stopped because there is nothing anyone can add except critisie that the discussion has stopped, this forum is where people can offer views and oppinions - most have done that to the extreme, it certaintly has not been forgotten - we now wait to hear of news from Canada

[Notstupid30]

I was thinking this maybe ...

Dengue fever (UK /ˈdɛŋɡeɪ/ or US /ˈdɛŋɡiː/), also known as breakbone fever, is an infectious tropical disease caused by the dengue virus. Symptoms include fever, headache, muscle and joint pains, and a characteristic skin rash that is similar to measles. In a small proportion of cases the disease develops into the life-threatening dengue hemorrhagic fever, resulting in bleeding, low levels of blood platelets and blood plasma leakage, or into dengue shock syndrome, wheredangerously low blood pressure occurs.

Dengue is transmitted by several species of mosquito within the genus Aedes, principally A. aegypti. The virus has four different types; infection with one type usually gives lifelong immunity to that type, but only short-term immunity to the others. Subsequent infection with a different type increases the risk of severe complications. As there is no vaccine, prevention is sought by reducing the habitat and the number of mosquitoes and limiting exposure to bites.

Treatment of acute dengue is supportive, using either oral or intravenous rehydration for mild or moderate disease, and intravenous fluids and blood transfusion for more severe cases. The incidence of dengue fever has increased dramatically since the 1960s, with around 50–100 million people infected yearly. Early descriptions of the condition date from 1779, and its viral cause and the transmission were elucidated in the early 20th century. Dengue has become a global problem since theSecond World War and is endemic in more than 110 countries. Apart from eliminating the mosquitoes, work is ongoing on a vaccine, as well as medication targeted directly at the virus.

Diagnosis

Warning signs^[25] Abdominal pain Ongoing vomiting Liver enlargement Mucosal bleeding High hematocrit with low platelets Lethargy

The diagnosis of dengue is typically made clinically, on the basis of reported symptoms and physical examination; this applies especially in endemic areas.^[1] However, early disease can be difficult to differentiate from other viral infections.^[5] A probable diagnosis is based on the findings of fever plus two of the following: nausea and vomiting, rash, generalized pains, low white blood cell count, positive tourniquet test, or any warning sign (see table) in someone who lives in an endemic area.^[25] Warning signs typically occur before the onset of severe dengue.^[9] The tourniquet test, which is particularly useful in settings where no laboratory investigations are readily available, involves the application of a blood pressure cuff for five minutes, followed by the counting of any petechial hemorrhages; a higher number makes a diagnosis of dengue more likely.^[9]

The diagnosis should be considered in anyone who develops a fever within two week of being in the tropics or subtropics.^[14] It can be difficult to distinguish dengue fever and chikungunya, a similar viral infection that shares many symptoms and occurs in similar parts of the world to dengue.^[8] Often, investigations are performed to exclude other conditions that cause similar symptoms, such as malaria, leptospirosis, typhoid fever, and meningococcal disease.^[5]

The earliest change detectable on laboratory investigations is a low white blood cell count, which may then be followed by low platelets and metabolic acidosis.^[5] In severe disease, plasma leakage results in hemoconcentration (as indicated by a risinghematocrit) and hypoalbuminemia.^[5] Pleural effusions or ascites can be detected by physical examination when large,^[5] but the demonstration of fluid on ultrasound may assist in the early identification of dengue shock syndrome.^[1][5] The use of ultrasound is limited by lack of availability in many settings.^[1]

Source http://en.wikipedia....ki/Dengue_fever

Edited July 8, 2012 by Notstupid30

[ginjag]

How often this word is used in Thailand, INCONCLUSIVE ??? Phi Phi poisonings--corruption inconclusive findings--gambling--drugs--the said goverment nutters--police--airport runways findings--flood defences-- the list goes on. This IS real all these things and more need urgently addressing, I feel this is NOT bashing Thai people--but who runs them. Please Thai people do something to kick out these wrongs, especially these tourist deaths, have a clean start - stop hiding behind the truth.

[ttelise]

How often this word is used in Thailand, INCONCLUSIVE ??? Phi Phi poisonings--corruption inconclusive findings--gambling--drugs--the said goverment nutters--police--airport runways findings--flood defences-- the list goes on. This IS real all these things and more need urgently addressing, I feel this is NOT bashing Thai people--but who runs them. Please Thai people do something to kick out these wrongs, especially these tourist deaths, have a clean start - stop hiding behind the truth.

I mean seriously, one could not make this stuff up. I use to scan here to see latest political climate before traveling in that general direction, but I was amazed when I actually started reading headers and looking at some of the post.

This is some of the most messed up, at times humorous <deleted>. Beyond belief really. The daily Thailand news is so messed up I don't think the top sit com writers in the US could brain storm and come up with such a dysfunctional theme and chronicaly dysfunctional, ignorant, corrupt chain of events.

Sad to say, but Thai society walks a fine line of being either the most pathetic or the most humorous culture in this world. Places like Africa, Russia and Mexico know what they are and don't pretend to think they are something different. Not Thailand though.

Edited July 8, 2012 by ttelise

[canuckamuck]

These were simultaneous deaths, it must have been a pair of synchronized mosquitoes then.

[maidu]

How often this word is used in Thailand, INCONCLUSIVE ??? Phi Phi poisonings--corruption inconclusive findings--gambling--drugs--the said goverment nutters--police--airport runways findings--flood defences-- the list goes on. This IS real all these things and more need urgently addressing, I feel this is NOT bashing Thai people--but who runs them. Please Thai people do something to kick out these wrongs, especially these tourist deaths, have a clean start - stop hiding behind the truth.

I can imagine that on the first day of forensic science class in Thailand, all students are given a rubber stamp with the word "I N C O N C L U S I V E' (or Thai equivalent) and a red ink stamp. Then they spend the rest of the classroom practicing stamping pieces of paper with it.

[coma]

Dengue fever. Hahaha. You are having a laugh. One of, if not the most ridiculous calls I have seen in this thread.

You may want to look at changing your username dude.

[coma]

any news from the forensic scientists in Canada?

Of course not ...we are now July 7th going on 8th and nothing since July 5th ... TV members obviously do not have such long term memories....It's now been burried and forgotten till the next episode and then the previous Phiphi stories and this one and the Chiangmai ones will all be brought up once again in a memory flash ... Pfff!! So sickening to see 33 or more pages of TV people venting and criticizing and trying to prove the causes and verdicts and then Pouf!!! all are gone back to their bar stools somewhere to harrass each other about their egotiscal knowledge of everything ... as I said before when the next unfortunate events happens again they will all be back on the loop to show their bar stool skills ... Oye someone save us !!!

He asked if there was any news from the forensic scientists in Canada.

[metisdead]

A post containing overly derogatory comments bashing Thailand has been removed as well as a reply.

[Notstupid30]

We’ll have you ever had Dengue fever I have and it is nasty as hell plus already some people have already died from this plus one woman was transferred to three hospitals just recent also you never know here in

Thailand ...

Dengue fever has claimed 18 of the 17,086 patients this year, which is considerably more than the number affected in the same period last year, Bureau of Vector Borne Diseases Director Dr Wichai Satimai said.

He said the number of people who have died from dengue fever Type III, which is a more severe infection, mostly took place in the South. The Type III virus seems to be on the rise and the authorities will be handing out a handbook to help diagnose the disease. He has also urged communities to destroy mosquito larvae.

Chiang Mai health official Dr Wattana Kanchanakamol said that so far 200 dengue fever infections have been reported and the numbers are expected to rise in the JulySeptember period, which is why his office is campaigning for people to take protective measures. Citing the trend of a dengue fever outbreak occurring every other year - 2010 saw 6,000 patients and three deaths, and 2011 only saw 600 patients and no deaths - he said this year could result in a severe outbreak and hence officials should destroy larvae and fumigate homes.

Source http://www.nationmul...d-30185588.html

[dingdang]

maybe the cases are linked ? http://www.thaivisa....en#entry5463062

besides all foreigners with "unknown" death causes and the "common" symptoms, we dont know the figures about locals and local children, who possibly die of the same causes...

in cambodia there could 70something children die, until someone - the name sounds swiss - raised alarm...

do you think, they raise alarm here, when it comes to locals dying of an "unknown" disease?

they wouldnt even perform an autopsy...

when an adult dies, after diarrhoe and "neurological effects" - a brief period - how often do they call the doctor in... during the brief disease, and after the person is dead... does every diseased here need a death certificate?

possibly, cambodia is not alone with this epidemia...

maybe the same number of adults is dying, just that they rather dont go to a hospital but would bring little children in...

phillipine immigration has raised alarm too...

Edited July 8, 2012 by dingdang

[coma]

Yes I have had Dengue. 2 years ago in Chiang Mai where I spent 3 days in hospital hooked up to an IV. And yes I am well aware that is kills. It was just after I had it that I heard of world champion pro surfer Andy Irons dying from it in November 2010.

But when you read of the extreme symptons that these two young ladies had , and one has an ounce of an idea about the disease, then one CANNOT possibley attribute them to dengue fever.

http://www.medicinen...fever/page3.htm

[Notstupid30]

I have had it twice it wasn't nice at all... Yea fully understand what you are saying about too it’s a shame everything gets cover up over here in LOS just to save face … Hard to know what true or false these days as there is some much crap happening these days in Thailand …

[Chopperboy]

So sickening to see 33 or more pages of TV people venting and criticizing and trying to prove the causes and verdicts and then Pouf!!! all are gone back to their bar stools somewhere to harrass each other about their egotiscal knowledge of everything ... as I said before when the next unfortunate events happens again they will all be back on the loop to show their bar stool skills ... Oye someone save us !!!

If anyone is guilty of the Egotistical use of Knowledge its not TV members - its the "self taught" toxicologist Dr Ron McDowall who proposed the bed bug spray "theory" in the first place while confusing paraquat (herbicide) with organophosphate (pesticide).

"Highlighting part of Dr McDowall’s response in which he states: “Many of the deaths involving OPs were from women using paraquat or Chlorpyrifos as a suicide agent”, Dr Reeve states: “Paraquat is not an OP as the beginning of his sentence implies. Paraquat is a well-known suicide agent and its toxicity does not present as OP poisoning at all”

http://photo-journ.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Toxicologists-letter.png

[Nisa]

According to the Phuketwan today ... tests are still being run in Thailand and Canada on tissue samples. It is not uncommon for this to take weeks to months since it is a process of elimination in looking for substances / toxins. They also mention these deaths appear to have had no impact on travel to the island.

[ginjag]

Aggree having the wait the time for forensics to determine cause/s. Pucketwan could well be speaking the truth, but we have to remember it's early yet, another factor being most people have paid and booked in advance for their trip in a lifetime so you do not expect them to say -Oh we'll not bother, Phuketwans comment is good for morale AT THE MINUTE. another headache for tourism, but Thai is overcoming all of these downs, so we think, problem is there are too many to ignore, be optomistic look on the bright side as they say..

[maidu]

According to the Phuketwan today ... tests are still being run in Thailand and Canada on tissue samples. It is not uncommon for this to take weeks to months since it is a process of elimination in looking for substances / toxins. They also mention these deaths appear to have had no impact on travel to the island.

Good to hear there's continuing investigation by some Thai authorities (if we're to believe the report mentioned above). I thought the 'inconclusive' label was the end of Thai involvement, thereby (Thais) hoping the case would be forgotten, and the tourist industry could rev back up as if nothing happened. The last sentence in the post above is telling, because it confirms what some have been saying (and a report earlier on this thread, about what Thais have been saying on their forums): Thais are much more concerned about the state of their tourist industry, than a few deaths here and there.

Edited July 9, 2012 by maidu

[Nisa]

According to the Phuketwan today ... tests are still being run in Thailand and Canada on tissue samples. It is not uncommon for this to take weeks to months since it is a process of elimination in looking for substances / toxins. They also mention these deaths appear to have had no impact on travel to the island.

Good to hear there's continuing investigation by some Thai authorities (if we're to believe the report mentioned above). I thought the 'inconclusive' label was the end of Thai involvement, thereby (Thais) hoping the case would be forgotten, and the tourist industry could rev back up as if nothing happened. The last sentence in the post above is telling, because it confirms what some have been saying (and a report earlier on this thread, about what Thais have been saying on their forums): Thais are much more concerned about the state of their tourist industry, than a few deaths here and there.

Why don't you read the article instead of taking something a farang posts on ThaiVisa as being indicative of all what Thai's care about or taking one comment from an article in a newspaper geared towards tourism. If you also read the OP (not just the headline), you would know that the Thai investigation (autopsy conclusion) is still going on and that there is absolutely nothing to indicate they have ruled the cause of death as being inconclusive or unknown.

[annabel]

Yes I have had Dengue. 2 years ago in Chiang Mai where I spent 3 days in hospital hooked up to an IV. And yes I am well aware that is kills. It was just after I had it that I heard of world champion pro surfer Andy Irons dying from it in November 2010.

But when you read of the extreme symptons that these two young ladies had , and one has an ounce of an idea about the disease, then one CANNOT possibley attribute them to dengue fever.

http://www.medicinen...fever/page3.htm

I know several people here in Chiang Mai who have had Dengue Fever in the past 1 1/2 years , not once but twice and it has certainly not killed them and they are still alove /// I am not syaing that you cannot die from it .. yes you can but certainly not overnight and in 2 similar exact conditions as these siters died of ... Dengue is from a mosquito and even if they were bitten at the same time it does not kill OVERNIGHT !

[smedly]

unfortunately you cannot feed samples into a big machine and get a printout of results, it's way more complicated than that, there could as many many tests on many organs and fluids to get close to a rusult and even then there are more factors to consider - Thailand IMO simply doesn't have to expertise to perform anything let alone the will and even if they did - I doubt very much that findings would bever be exposed to the public if thought to be bad for image, so that is basically were this is at.

[EyesWideOpen]

At this point Thailand is simply hedging its bets. Best case scenario for Thailand / tourist industry is that the whole affair simple sort of fades away, the same as what happened at the Downtown Hotel. While the news of this event was on the front page of newspapers and harming tourism, Thailand wasted little time in producing its famous inconclusive results. So now they are playing a waiting game with Canada. If the Canada autopsy cannot produce the causative agent, then Thailand will simply agree with those findings that the cause was indeterminate . If the Canada autopsy clearly states which poison was the cause, then I believe that within a very short period of time Thailand will release a statement saying that yes those were the results of its autopsy as well. Then they would have to deal with the tourism fallout, and pray that the term " Thailand sudden hotel death syndrome" does not enter the general lexicon of tourists....... :-)

Edited July 9, 2012 by EyesWideOpen

[edgarfriendly]

At this point Thailand is simply hedging its bets. Best case scenario for Thailand / tourist industry is that the whole affair simple sort of fades away, the same as what happened at the Downtown Hotel. While the news of this event was on the front page of newspapers and harming tourism, Thailand wasted little time in producing its famous inconclusive results. So now they are playing a waiting game with Canada. If the Canada autopsy cannot produce the causative agent, then Thailand will simply agree with those findings that the cause was indeterminate . If the Canada autopsy clearly states which poison was the cause, then I believe that within a very short period of time Thailand will release a statement saying that yes those were the results of its autopsy as well. Then they would have to deal with the tourism fallout, and pray that the term " Thailand sudden hotel death syndrome" does not enter the general lexicon of tourists....... :-)

Thailand Hotel Sudden Death Syndrome!!!

(AKA, mai pen lai/rai, mai dtong kid mak, falang/farang baa, mai mee arai, 'dangerous drugs' like pot & mushrooms....ETC)

Get it right!

Edited July 10, 2012 by edgarfriendly

[webfact]

please continue:

Canadian sisters deaths: Probe finds more information but no clues

Full story: http://www.thaivisa....n-but-no-clues/

//CLOSED//