Thailand's Thaksin Says Amnesty Key To Reconciliation

[rubl]

In reply to #145 nurofiend

Apologies, just switched to opera browser which doesn't work well with TV frontend.

The quote on 'Policies to be implemented in the first year' is from the Yingluck government as read out by our PM in August last year.

Your 'what do you personally find wrong with them making a draft and putting it to a referendum?' ignores the 'broad based public participation'. When that is indeed achieved and in a really democratic manner, not just by government / major political party selected persons, I wouldn't mind a CDA drafting and people voting in a referendum. Still as I wrote before, if the government (and/or largest coalition party) deems it necessary to rewrite the complete charter, they should be able to explain in detail as to why they deem so.

This should also answer again your previous question "what is wrong with making the draft and then letting people make an informed decision?" When all we want is a functioning democracy let people participate in formulating rather than offering a choice yes/no. Mind you a charter cannot be written by ordinary people, a certain background and knowledge is required. Sorry to say I wouldn't qualify, neither would you (independent of being Thai or not).

[Yunla]

If PTP really had a majority they would be eager to hold a national referendum. If they didn't they would find all sorts of excuses ("too expensive") for not doing it.

here's a little newsflash for you, when they announced to parliament that they were planning a charter change back in august, they stated that after completing the draft it would be decided upon by a national referendum.

the problem with a referendum on charter change now, is that people don't have the benefit of knowing whether they approve of the actual changes or not, because they don't exist yet.

there's nothing for them to say, yes i like that change it will make things better or no i hate that change it will make things worse.

Actually regardless of what they said a year ago, this week they said that they would prefer to avoid referendum as it is too expensive. They also made out four options to pursue charter change, the favourite was an elected assembly to rubber stamp the new constitution without referendum, two of the others were variations on this theme and the fourth and least acceptable to PTP was an actual democratic referendum. The thread is still in the recent news list and the four options were played out in the OP, which was posted in the last 2~ days. I forget the title.

However PTP are not pro public referendum. So you might need to do one of your little trademark U-turns on this one. Their favoured option is to bypass referendum in favour of an assembly made of undemocratically elected officials. Like Saddam used to have. Or Hitler. Or Stalin. Have a nice day.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Yunla

[nurofiend]

what is wrong with making the draft and then letting people make an informed decision?

Because the decision is seldom informed, it is told, commanded, coerced or bought.

But, as PTP didn't get more than 50% during the last election using all those tactics and a proliferation of unachievable promises they are scared that if it went to a referendum, they may lose, and losing that one would be a real kick in the teeth.

snip

if they are so scared of a referendum then why was their policy from the start to have their charter draft approved by a public referendum?

Because the decision is seldom informed, it is told, commanded, coerced or bought.

do you think having a referendum on whether to change the charter based on no information of what the changes will be whatsoever, is informed?

yes, they are probably scared about a referendum on that and for good reason.

your answered my question of "what is wrong with making the draft and then letting people make an informed decision?"

with

"Because the decision is seldom informed, it is told, commanded, coerced or bought."

so going by that response, your problem seems to be with the public voting at all through a referendum on a new charter draft, and that's a whole other argument and one i 100% don't agree with.

[nurofiend]

If PTP really had a majority they would be eager to hold a national referendum. If they didn't they would find all sorts of excuses ("too expensive") for not doing it.

here's a little newsflash for you, when they announced to parliament that they were planning a charter change back in august, they stated that after completing the draft it would be decided upon by a national referendum.

the problem with a referendum on charter change now, is that people don't have the benefit of knowing whether they approve of the actual changes or not, because they don't exist yet.

there's nothing for them to say, yes i like that change it will make things better or no i hate that change it will make things worse.

Actually regardless of what they said a year ago, this week they said that they would prefer to avoid referendum as it is too expensive. They also made out four options to pursue charter change, the favourite was an elected assembly to rubber stamp the new constitution without referendum, two of the others were variations on this theme and the fourth and least acceptable to PTP was an actual democratic referendum. The thread is still in the recent news list and the four options were played out in the OP, which was posted in the last 2~ days. I forget the title.

However PTP are not pro public referendum. So you might need to do one of your little trademark U-turns on this one. Their favoured option is to bypass referendum in favour of a assembly made of undemocratically elected officials. Like Saddam used to have. Or Hitler. Or Stalin. Have a nice day.

"this week they said that they would prefer to avoid referendum as it is too expensive"

yes, the fact that the referendum wouldn't be on approving the charter draft, means it's a different referendum.

it's not backpeddling, it's a different referendum. and a ridiculous one at that.

yeah, yeah, hitler, stalin. have a nice day too.

[nurofiend]

No, sorry, it doesn't work like that, I'm not the defendant here, you are.

'the defendant' lol, give me strength...

the only thing i have to go on is that every media source i've read seems to accept it, including the nation going back as far as last year.

what do you have to go on?

can you answer which other lie (in your opinion) do you mean? you seem to have avoided it and snipped it out of my post.

Thaddeus is correct.

This was NOT a campaign promise.

It's PTP telling porkies.

and i ask you how do you know this?

have you proof that they didn't campaign about this at all?

i already said i don't know for a fact and am just going on that every media source i've read seems to accept it, including the nation going back as far as last year.

but you state it that you know this is definitively 100% NOT correct, so prove it then.

[Thaddeus]

it's not backpeddling, it's a different referendum. and a ridiculous one at that.

I agree, it isn't back peddling, a more accurate description would be it's a pathetic excuse.

[Thaddeus]

i already said i don't know for a fact and am just going on that every media source i've read seems to accept it, including the nation going back as far as last year.

When last year?

[Moruya]

No, sorry, it doesn't work like that, I'm not the defendant here, you are.

'the defendant' lol, give me strength...

the only thing i have to go on is that every media source i've read seems to accept it, including the nation going back as far as last year.

what do you have to go on?

can you answer which other lie (in your opinion) do you mean? you seem to have avoided it and snipped it out of my post.

Thaddeus is correct.

This was NOT a campaign promise.

It's PTP telling porkies.

and i ask you how do you know this?

have you proof that they didn't campaign about this at all?

i already said i don't know for a fact and am just going on that every media source i've read seems to accept it, including the nation going back as far as last year.

but you state it that you know this is definitively 100% NOT correct, so prove it then.

Its already been proven by 2 methods.

1. Nobody can find any reference to it during the campaign.

2. It does not appear on any official list of campaign promises.

Please feel free to search. I'll buy you a beer if you prove me wrong.

I'm not sure that I can ask Google to "not" find it

[metisdead]

Several off topic and nonsense posts have been removed. Stick to the topic please.

[Baerboxer]

"Everyone says the same thing"

Complete lie

He is working on the principal that if you tell a lie enough times, people actually start to believe it.

Spot on sir! Hitler said that the bigger the lie, and more often repeated, the more the people will believe it !!

[Baerboxer]

All this from the very man who filled his pockets with the countries wealth and then ran for the hills when found out.

He boasts of "this is the only way to true reconciliation" to forgive!!

Lets not forget, this is a man found guilty & prosecuted of a crime committed within his own country by a court of law elected to uphold the law of the land.

A man who is such a coward that he fled his own country in self imposed exile to escape his punishment.

A man who still try's to influence the government, his family & so called loyal followers from afar to change the law to allow him to come back, not creep in the back door but boldly through the front entrance like some hero returning from battle.

The only way he should be allowed back into Thailand is to serve his full sentence like any other convicted criminal & even then after being released from prison given a lifetime ban from holding any political position.

Why should he be pardoned for committing such a crime when the man on the street is not given such privileges, he talks of forgiveness..

He should go down on his knees before the people & beg for their forgiveness for his crimes against the country & monarchy..

Is it not a crime in this corrupt country for politicians to have contact with convicted criminals who have evaded the law?

They should send out a clear message to ignore him or be prosecuted themselves for having any involvement with him & also ask foreign countries to do likewise.

After all he is a convicted criminal on the run!!

There is a whole echelon of Thai Hi-So's, politicians and business people who are seemingly above the law. These people act like medieval barons in their own fiefdoms - vying for position on the gravy trains, protecting home markets, stunting educational growth etc etc. All aimed at preserving their privelaged and very wealthy way of life. This is not unique to Thialand in Asia. Politicians in particular don't think the laws apply to them, and use government apparatus to hound their opponents (JFK did this too, so it's more common than people think).

A simialr attitude had developed in certain poiticians in the UK - until several were convicted and imprisoned for expense claim fraud. Independent courts and impartial effective law enforcement are cornerstones of democracy. Here there is neither, nor any drive towards this. No doubt Thaksin will return, probably this year, will get an amnesty, for no sound legal reason. Then the "fun" will start. In the meantime, the current encumbents of power will continue to "rape" the country and buy luxury homes in the West to flee to when the sh*t hits the fan.

[Keesters]

I wish that the headlines be written correctly. Every time Thaksin's name is mentioned it should include the words "CONVICTED CRIMINAL" not just "FUGITIVE" but "CONVICTED CRIMINAL FUGITIVE". Tell it like it really is; he's a CROOK and has been found guilty of being so by a legitimate court of Thailand.

[SuneeTH]

All this from the very man who filled his pockets with the countries wealth and then ran for the hills when found out.

He boasts of "this is the only way to true reconciliation" to forgive!!

Lets not forget, this is a man found guilty & prosecuted of a crime committed within his own country by a court of law elected to uphold the law of the land.

A man who is such a coward that he fled his own country in self imposed exile to escape his punishment.

A man who still try's to influence the government, his family & so called loyal followers from afar to change the law to allow him to come back, not creep in the back door but boldly through the front entrance like some hero returning from battle.

The only way he should be allowed back into Thailand is to serve his full sentence like any other convicted criminal & even then after being released from prison given a lifetime ban from holding any political position.

Why should he be pardoned for committing such a crime when the man on the street is not given such privileges, he talks of forgiveness..

He should go down on his knees before the people & beg for their forgiveness for his crimes against the country & monarchy..

Is it not a crime in this corrupt country for politicians to have contact with convicted criminals who have evaded the law?

They should send out a clear message to ignore him or be prosecuted themselves for having any involvement with him & also ask foreign countries to do likewise.

After all he is a convicted criminal on the run!!

There is a whole echelon of Thai Hi-So's, politicians and business people who are seemingly above the law. These people act like medieval barons in their own fiefdoms - vying for position on the gravy trains, protecting home markets, stunting educational growth etc etc. All aimed at preserving their privelaged and very wealthy way of life. This is not unique to Thialand in Asia. Politicians in particular don't think the laws apply to them, and use government apparatus to hound their opponents (JFK did this too, so it's more common than people think).

A simialr attitude had developed in certain poiticians in the UK - until several were convicted and imprisoned for expense claim fraud. Independent courts and impartial effective law enforcement are cornerstones of democracy. Here there is neither, nor any drive towards this. No doubt Thaksin will return, probably this year, will get an amnesty, for no sound legal reason. Then the "fun" will start. In the meantime, the current encumbents of power will continue to "rape" the country and buy luxury homes in the West to flee to when the sh*t hits the fan.

These people act like medieval barons in their own fiefdoms - vying for position on the gravy trains, protecting home markets, stunting educational growth etc etc.

This work in the past for centuries, and why shouldn't it work now.

[scorecard]

If PTP really had a majority they would be eager to hold a national referendum. If they didn't they would find all sorts of excuses ("too expensive") for not doing it.

The govt., says, it's 'too expensive'. What a joke, they spend money like there is no tomorrow. They claimed in the run up to the elections that they wanted 'quality democracy', but now it seems it's 'too expensive'.

[scorecard]

quote from the paymasters speech at the forum in Jakarta:

"

........He (the paymaster) explained that reconciliation must include amnesty. He admitted that it had been long overdue for Thailand to bring reconciliation.

The government has promised reconciliation to the country since a long time ago.

Yet, he denied that his desire to return to Thailand was related to court ruling. "I want to go back, but not to create problem. Right now I'm just the encyclopedia of the government," he said.

Thaksin also said that he was impressed on how Indonesia moving forward politically. He said that it was because of democracy."

So he was impressed about the improvements in Indonesia and he stated (his words) that it was '...because of democracy...'. Seems to be very contradictory. In his reign he set out to destroy the mechanisms of democracy.

The paymaster (and no doubt his international 'lawyer' friend will be on it very soon) tries to say that others at the forum also agree about reconcilation. Reconciliation is a big word which could have all sorts of meanings, and I have no doubt that others at the forum have some different concepts etc., in mind when they use this word.

It's been suggested the great lady from myanmar ASSK also supported reconciliation, but I cannot find any record of this and again I very much doubt that any comment she made would have alignment to what the paymaster would try to push.

'encyclopedia to the govenment', gimme a break.

Edited July 19, 2012 by scorecard

[Buchholz]

Thaksin waiting for Thai national reconciliation before returning home

Former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is waiting for national reconciliation to happen before he returns to his homeland. Thaksin said this in an exclusive interview with Channel NewsAsia on the sidelines of the Strategic Review Forum in Jakarta on Tuesday.

Thaksin may be far from home, but home is never far from his mind. "I can go everywhere in the world, except my homeland. Why? I should be able to go to my homeland, my motherland. But now every country welcomes me, except my motherland," he said. "(This makes me) feel bad. There's something wrong, (and) that is the big misunderstanding (between the Thai political factions). It's time to face and talk."

Thaksin also says it was time for forgiveness. "I forgive everyone. Don't worry that they might you know, insult me with verbal, or with legal, or whatever. I forgive them all. I just want to be part of Thai society. I want to live my normal life," he said. "I want to see reconciliation. I want to see peace and unity in Thailand. I will bring my people and come together with those who are against me and then we will do something. We will try to find something that we can have activities together," he said.

Continues:

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/southeastasia/view/1214265/1/.html

Channel News Asia - July 18, 2012

.

[scorecard]

I am seriously beginning to wonder if Thaksins' and his parties' policies are not being deliberately designed to destroy Thailand both socially and economically, perhaps as a maniacal revenge because he now realises he has little chance of returning to Thailand.

The constant refrain about "reconciliation", Charter amendments etc. merely stirs the Red and Yellow mobs to more confrontation and social division.

Populist and totally unsustainable policies are now so embedded in the Thai Economic order that it will be impossible to roll them back without causing even more resentment from the Red shirt mob, even though the evidence of the destruction these policies cause is there for them to see. As an example the Rice pledging scheme with its' so-called guaranteed prices for farmers, far above world Market prices, has not benefited farmers but has reduced Thai Rice exports by about 40%, left the Government with warehouses full of unsold rice and lost Thailand the place of top Rice exporter in the world - a position it had held for many years. Despite all of which the Government - i.e. Thaksin - has already stated that the Policy will be continued next year.

Another example is the ridiculous increase in the Minimum Wage and the basic Salary for a Graduate - at a stroke these schemes destroyed Thailands' competitiveness vis a vis neighbouring Countries who either had a cheaper workforce or a better educated one, has already rendered thousands of Thai workers unemployed, sent many Companies to set up in other Asian Countries and again reduced Thailands' Export earnings..

That is only two examples of course but there are many others and I am becoming more and more convinced that there is a pattern in all of this.

Patrick

Plus, it's only a few weeks to one year in power, and:

- The 300Baht per day promise to all has been implmented in just 7 provinces and the puppet now says it will take 3 years to install in all provinces, in other words, they have not kept their promise.

- The 15,000Baht min start for all new graduates only implemented in some go'vt agencies along with more 'allowances' so that staff already employed aren't left behind. But in reality many in education forgotten completely (2 in my family). For others policy now deliberately forgotten, in other words they have not kept their promise.

And, yes, unsustainable. More policies like these any Thailand will be bankrupt.

On the other hand, the gap between the rich and the poor is also unsustainabe long-term, but it can be reduced and fairly quickly with appropriate policies, development and infrastructure, but still no mention whatever of these subjects.

[apetley]

Can't wait for Thaksins version of events to appear in print.

What's Thai for 'Mein Kampf'?

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Buchholz]

Former Thai PM Tells Jakarta He Forgives Those Who Ousted Him

Former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra told a forum in Jakarta on Tuesday that forgiving was the key to solving conflict, vowing that he would never have any intention to seek revenge against those deposed him from power six years ago. “I never want to take revenge out on anyone,” the Thai billionaire said.

Speaking at the first Strategic Review Forum, he said the continued conflicts have caused Thai people to suffer. “I would suggest that everybody in Thailand detach themselves from the past,” said Thaksin, citing an example the way Japan forgave the United States, which dropped atomic bombs on it during World War II, and became a close ally.

“If you learn how to forgive, that is success for reconciliation,” Thaksin said.

Continues:

http://www.thejakart...sted-him/531133

The Jakarta Globe - July 18, 2012

[Jingthing]

He forget to mention America OCCUPIED Japan after the military victory for seven years. There is NO comparison to the Japan America relationship and Thailand's Thaksin problem.

[Yunla]

Former Thai PM Tells Jakarta He Forgives Those Who Ousted Him

Former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra told a forum in Jakarta on Tuesday that forgiving was the key to solving conflict, vowing that he would never have any intention to seek revenge against those deposed him from power six years ago. “I never want to take revenge out on anyone,” the Thai billionaire said.

Speaking at the first Strategic Review Forum, he said the continued conflicts have caused Thai people to suffer. “I would suggest that everybody in Thailand detach themselves from the past,” said Thaksin, citing an example the way Japan forgave the United States, which dropped atomic bombs on it during World War II, and became a close ally.

“If you learn how to forgive, that is success for reconciliation,” Thaksin said.

Continues:

http://www.thejakart...sted-him/531133

The Jakarta Globe - July 18, 2012

Interesting that he should compare his peacetime job as prime minister of a constitutional-monarchy during a time of relative global prosperity and peace, with some of the most bitter actions of World War Two, including nuclear desolation.

Perhaps he would be better to compare his time as prime minister with the actions of other prime ministers instead.

In addition he appeals to Thai people to "detach themselves from the past", while cheerfully overlooking the fact that he belongs to the past and he refuses to stay there quietly. There is one reason that Thaksin stories are in the news every day and that reason is Thaksin.

As for the forgiveness, obviously his statement is a breathtakingly shameful insult to all those who died in Japan and elsewhere in WW2. If they have recovered from the scars of war and chosen their path of forgiveness then that is a great symbol of their strength, courage and their love of humanity. To compare such heroism during times of war, to your own corrupt sleazy prime-ministership is absolutely coldhearted and shameful.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Yunla

[slapout]

Thaksin seems to be somewhat mentally unstable, at times, and then he starting rambling and gives the impression, he should be committed to a instituation, for the protection of the rest of us. His money would probably be better spent on mental health care for himself, and the real professionals could medicate him, keep him in a environment suitable for him and there would be many people who could look toward a better future.

[Jingthing]

Thaksin tries to pass himself off as some kind of intellectual/deep political thinker. It would be funny if he still didn't have so much POWER.

[ratcatcher]

Thaksin seems to be somewhat mentally unstable, at times, and then he starting rambling and gives the impression, he should be committed to a instituation, for the protection of the rest of us. His money would probably be better spent on mental health care for himself, and the real professionals could medicate him, keep him in a environment suitable for him and there would be many people who could look toward a better future.

A few minor amendments (with apologies to slapout..... .)

1. Thaksin seems to be somewhat is mentally unstable.

2. at times all the time.

3. then he starting rambling always rambles.

4. gives the impression, he should be committed to an institution.

The rest is true.

[Noistar]

I wish that the headlines be written correctly. Every time Thaksin's name is mentioned it should include the words "CONVICTED CRIMINAL" not just "FUGITIVE" but "CONVICTED CRIMINAL FUGITIVE". Tell it like it really is; he's a CROOK and has been found guilty of being so by a legitimate court of Thailand.

A break from my homework

Can't argue with that, but I haven't an axe to grind

On with my assignment

[SouthernMan3]

All he has to do is come back serve his two year's and bingo all sorted. But I'll lay odd's that will never happen. Gutless now there's a word.

Do you actually think he would survive the two years ?

I don't.

Come on home...

[SouthernMan3]

It sure is a breath of fresh air to see that almost all of you folks here agree with what I (and I'm sure many) have known all along.

[SouthernMan3]

If I was him I'd just hang it up and go play golf with George W.

[Buchholz]

He forget to mention America OCCUPIED Japan after the military victory for seven years. There is NO comparison to the Japan America relationship and Thailand's Thaksin problem.

Similarly ridiculous is his other comment from the Post #136 article.

Thaksin said South Africa's Nelson Mandala served as an inspiration for him.

.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Buchholz

[waza]

I wish that the headlines be written correctly. Every time Thaksin's name is mentioned it should include the words "CONVICTED CRIMINAL" not just "FUGITIVE" but "CONVICTED CRIMINAL FUGITIVE". Tell it like it really is; he's a CROOK and has been found guilty of being so by a legitimate court of Thailand.

Amsterdam is paid big $ to keep Thaksin in the media and to report him in a positive light. Normally they will say he is "in self exile", or "fugitive"but I prefer "Convicted Criminal and fugitive from justice"