Are Farangs Playing A Major Part In The Dog Problems Of Pattaya? (And Elsewhere)

[cowslip]

The dog population and its suffering in Thailand is quite appalling....and so many farang “doggy-lovers” seem unaware of how their efforts to be “nice” to these unfortunates is actually contributing and exacerbating the situation.

The animals spread diseases that are communicable to humans. (Hookworm, Lyme Disease, Toxocariasis (worms))

They defecate and pollute public spaces - turning them into a health risk - especially for our children.

Many people don’t realise that the behaviour of dogs instinctively changes when they are in packs - they can become far more aggressive (the sum total of the strength of the pack). They harass farm animals from chickens up to buffaloes, they are also a danger to wild animals and birds, in towns and villages as well as the parks and forests of Thailand where they are a massive threat to indigenous and endangered wildlife.

Dogs raid bins and distribute garbage far and wide, further increasing the risks to public health.

They even on occasion pose a direct personal threat to our safety in the form of attacks and with the spread of rabies.

Most developed countries and indeed many countries considered less developed than Thailand do not suffer from this problem.

(The glib answer that dogs are eaten in these places is IMO both facile and inaccurate).

The problem cannot be solved overnight but if people behave rationally towards these and other animals then the problem will dwindle. Many countries have sorted their dog problem in less than a decade.

What can we (foreigners) do to help?

Well, we need to act responsibly when it comes to our dealings or relationships with the animals around us.

Firstly simply “loving” dogs and “looking after” them isn’t good enough. “Rescuing” feral or semi feral dogs is just a fallacy.

The dogs we see on the streets fall into roughly 3 categories: - Pets, Community, and “Feral” dogs.

The first are owned and looked after by a private household. ... they can be anything from an over fed lap dog to and semi trained guard dog.

Second are often mistaken for “wild” dogs, but they are usually accepted and adopted by a street and are considered to be part of the landscape - their barking at strangers - bin pickers etc. - is seen as a security bonus.

The last are the packs of feral or semi feral dogs that fend for themselves all over Thailand. They live and breed with little or no contact with humans apart from the odd discarded bag of left overs or a clout with a stick or a stone.

Allowing , or worse still, encouraging these dogs to breed is the crux of the problem.

Rescuing these dogs - which are sometimes in great pain or in a disgustingly prolapsed state may seem to be the right thing at the time but the consequences are even worse. If left unsterilised these dogs live on, they may breed and that simply is unacceptable. That’s several more litters to add to the population and several more heart-wrenching examples of dogs dragging themselves around in agony just waiting to die.

ALL dogs - male or female should be sterilised - this includes your PETS. It’s no good turning a blind eye in the case of “Fluffles” as Fluffles is just as likely as the next dog to either be impregnated by or inseminate a Soi dog, so increasing the numbers of unwanted animals on the streets.

...and lets be real it’s NOT 100% possible to guarantee your personal dog’s celibacy for it’s lifetime.

Most pet owners seem to me to be either unprepared or simply unfit to own a dog anyway. There’s no doubting their affection for the animal as there is no doubting the depth of their ignorance when it comes to the dog’s welfare, their own and the environment’s..... Over-fed and under-trained they are yet another unhygienic sometimes dangerous, threat to the community.

Ads in papers and forums ask for homes for “cute little puppies” - which within months will turn into sex-starved, bin raiding, barking units of filth born to harass the neighbours and chase passing tradesmen and motorcycles.....or simply spawn another generation of the same.

The amount of dogs in an area is directly proportional to the amount of food available to them. This comes in various forms - garbage that is easily accessible, wasted uneaten pet food and probably the most asinine of all; food deliberately left for them by those who think they are easing the suffering of these unfortunates.

In areas (or times) with little or no food the animals will not breed and in the end they will leave in search of greener pastures, over a few years the dog population will dwindle to manageable levels.

This will only happen if the situation isn’t destabilised by well-intended but ill-informed humans. Feeding rescuing, allowing your pets to mingle with other dogs unsupervised, and above all letting any animal - pet or Soi dog - out without being sterilised. Sick animals need to be put down - they will still mate and spread disease if allowed out again. Pets should be sterilised too..... in reality very few owners could guarantee that their “pooch” won’t end up breeding with strays and bolstering the street population.

So next time you get the urge to “safe” or “rescue" a dog, think what your actions are contributing to ...then act.......

If a dog is in pain and seriously ill - decide if you are willing to look after it for the next 10 years or so. If not the only kind thing to do is have it humanly put down rather than a long lingering death on the streets. If you do decide to keep it at least make sure it is sterilised. Then you can try and train it?....good luck with that.

[Phil Conners]

You will find it incredibly difficult to find any veterinarian in Thailand who will put down an animal, regardless of how bad it's condition is. They just won't do it, I believe for religious reasons.

[silentnine]

the number of wild stray dogs in Thailand puts them up there with vermin and they should be treated and eradicated as such (flame time )

[tropo]

Regarding Soi dogs. They don't need rescuing. The are fed by local Thais. Basically most of them are considered as pets.

This is their country. They like them. Deal with it as nothing is going to change.

[Pdaz]

the number of wild stray dogs in Thailand puts them up there with vermin and they should be treated and eradicated as such (flame time )

Yes.. Round them up and put them down ( humanely ) Can we add to these all the badly cared for dogs that howl all night and the dogs that lazy owner let out to defecate in the moobahn around 6am everyday.. Oh and don't forget the dogs that clueless farangs buy for their 'girlfriend' who then abandons it once she is bored and the puppy is no longer 'cute'

I'm amazed that so many self professed 'dog lovers' take such little care of their animals.

[vtjforyou]

All these dogs should be cleaned...

[Darrel]

"Most developed countries and indeed many countries considered less developed than Thailand do not suffer from this problem.

(The glib answer that dogs are eaten in these places is IMO both facile and inaccurate)."

Actually in the Philippines this is indeed the reason one rarely sees stray dogs.

I cant imagine why they don't eat them all here. I certainly would, if I earned just 250B/day.

[cowslip]

You will find it incredibly difficult to find any veterinarian in Thailand who will put down an animal, regardless of how bad it's condition is. They just won't do it, I believe for religious reasons.

This is a fallacy - there are plenty of vets - they don't like to publicise because of the buddhist resistance to this.

may I suggest therefore that hose wishing to rescue animals first find a vet willing to euthanise.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

Simply culling doesn't work.

the dogs just repopulate - it is the food supply that determines the amount of dogs about.

[cowslip]

I have never seen any hard evidence that the eating of dogs is responsible for a low street dog population. In fact it would usually encourage the breeding of untrained dogs for eating purposes.

Furthermore I'd suggest that anyone who wants to eat dog would prefer not to gorge on the fetid and diseased carcass of a mankey street mutt.

.....also the practice of eating dogs isn't unknown in Thailand as well as shipping large numbers to other countries is quite common - yet apparently this has no effect on the stray dog population. I fail to see how shipping as opposed to eating the dogs would have any different effect on the latent population.

Thailand is in the world top ten for pet ownership. I've seen little evidence of responsible pet ownership in the country though. With 7 million ill-disciplined pets (and owners), this must in the end contribute to the street dog population.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

Regarding Soi dogs. They don't need rescuing. The are fed by local Thais. Basically most of them are considered as pets.

This is their country. They like them. Deal with it as nothing is going to change.

may I draw your attention to this thread

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/569547-why-some-people-need-to-get-out-more/

[simple1]

At this stage of Thai society I personally doubt that there is a solution acceptable to Thais for managing the stray / Soi dog population. As you say a huge population of dogs in Thailand. The numbers you quoted probably exceeded by millions. A small step for foreigners, both those living here and tourists; do not feed the dogs in the beach/urban areas - e.g. dogs begging for food in the open restaurants and being feed from the diners table.

Foreigners who own dogs in their home environment. Whilst some do take good care, many others do not even bother to exercise/train their "pets" with the resultant boredom, constant barking, defecating in the streets in the Moo Ban etc How do you change this attitude? God only knows, because they will not take action action when you talk with them. Usual response is TIT, it's not a nanny state, or more succinctly "bugger off"

[cockerdoodledo]

You will find it incredibly difficult to find any veterinarian in Thailand who will put down an animal, regardless of how bad it's condition is. They just won't do it, I believe for religious reasons.

They will,or some will if shove comes to push,the vet I sometimes use will ,but provides the means to a DIY euthanasia,incredibly difficult to subdue a dog whilst struggling and getting a needle into its vein.

To the OP,you are preaching to the knowing,but what to do about it?

In my own way I try,taking 2 to 3 soi dogs to the govt vet for spaying every week @500 baht a time......needs a friendly Thai (to the dog) to get a noose around its neck, then its as good as hooked drawn and...spayed. If you want to help in a small way donate to any soi dogs foundation,they will spay,or get to know where your own govt vet is and have a go around any Wat,gets easy

[tropo]

Actually in the Philippines this is indeed the reason one rarely sees stray dogs.

I cant imagine why they don't eat them all here. I certainly would, if I earned just 250B/day.

You got that right. The family dog was run over and someone immediately offered 250 peso for the corpse. My brother in law often eats dog. He considers it more value for money than pig.

[cowslip]

You will find it incredibly difficult to find any veterinarian in Thailand who will put down an animal, regardless of how bad it's condition is. They just won't do it, I believe for religious reasons.

They will,or some will if shove comes to push,the vet I sometimes use will ,but provides the means to a DIY euthanasia,incredibly difficult to subdue a dog whilst struggling and getting a needle into its vein.

To the OP,you are preaching to the knowing,but what to do about it?

In my own way I try,taking 2 to 3 soi dogs to the govt vet for spaying every week @500 baht a time......needs a friendly Thai (to the dog) to get a noose around its neck, then its as good as hooked drawn and...spayed. If you want to help in a small way donate to any soi dogs foundation,they will spay,or get to know where your own govt vet is and have a go around any Wat,gets easy

as I've said earlier, spaying is not the solution. It can be part of it, but it isn't the be-all and end-all.

The problem is the amount of food available and the population it can sustain.

I've also being looking for evidence that the consumption of stray dogs in the Phillippines is the cause of a relatively lower stray population and can't find a single thing.

If someone would like to point me in the right direction?

However I suspect the logic behind it is faulty....as simply removing dogs from the street - whether culling or eating - just leaves a space for other pups to fill. Dogs have large litters in general and "taking up the slack" so to speak is a very rapid process, only taking a few weeks.

Is it right then to think the Philippine population eating between 1 to 4 million dogs per year? Would that be enough to off-set breeding?

THe figure actually appears to be nearer 500,000 which I don't believe will fit the model for the permanent reduction of the dog population here in Thailand.

10 litters of dogs at 4 per litter could in theory generate over 1million dogs - and that's assuming each subsequent dog/.bitch only has one litter

There may e cultural differences - i.e Buddhism v Catholicism, but pet ownership is very high in both countries and as a percentage of the human population, it is about the same - still very high.

I would also submit that areas of Thailand with relatively low street dog populations are not necessarily areas where their consumption is very common. It is usually down to better organised garbage disposal.

so any answers would be appreciated.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cowslip

[Rimmer]

One post removed, thanks but we don't need pictures like that one on here it will offend a lot of people.

[tropo]

I've also being looking for evidence that the consumption of stray dogs in the Phillippines is the cause of a relatively lower stray population and can't find a single thing.

If someone would like to point me in the right direction?

You're not going to find a scientific study on it, but I already stated that in the province where my wife's family live, people come along and offer money for roadkill (dogs). They bought the family pet to eat. Read bought - they had to pay for it. That should be enough evidence. If you leave your dog outside the gate it won't last long. People are hungry and need to eat.

So we're got around 100 million people living on some small islands. At least 40% are living below the poverty line (compared to under 10% in Thailand). Where do you think the dogs are going to find food to eat (unless they are family pets) with so many hungry people around. The dogs are food. The poor communities will even eat rats. You may be surprised what you'd eat if you're hungry enough.

Edited July 19, 2012 by tropo

[cowslip]

I think the whole situation is offensive - this is an everyday site around S.E. Asia - I would suggest that many people (e.g. Farang dog owners) are unaware need to be aware of this butchery. Which takes place in front of the other live dogs.

Many animals are not killed before butchery but tortured as this is believed to make the meat more tender etc.

It is also a Buddhist belief that one should not take life - so often the injured animals is left to die on it's woods "of its own accord".......

[cowslip]

I've also being looking for evidence that the consumption of stray dogs in the Phillippines is the cause of a relatively lower stray population and can't find a single thing.

If someone would like to point me in the right direction?

You're not going to find a scientific study on it, but I already stated that in the province where my wife's family live, people come along and offer money for roadkill (dogs). They bought the family pet to eat. Read bought - they had to pay for it. That should be enough evidence. If you leave your dog outside the gate it won't last long. People are hungry and need to eat.

So we're got around 100 million people living on some small islands. At least 40% are living below the poverty line (compared to under 10% in Thailand). Where do you think the dogs are going to find food to eat (unless they are family pets) with so many hungry people around. The dogs are food. The poor communities will even eat rats. You may be surprised what you'd eat if you're hungry enough.

Yes and unfortunately there is no support for your premise....it has no logical merit. You are saying that al to of poor people eat dogs - this is probably true but your conclusion flies in the face of both experience and logic.

However you DO point to food - and as I said before when food is scarce - the number of dogs will dwindle anyway - as dogs won't breed if there isn't a satisfactory supply of food around.

Dogs are not usually in direct competition with humans for food - as scavengers, they will of course eat the same food as humans, but they also can survive on carrion etc and garbage that humans don't eat.

Actually I have stirred up a couple of studies on Dogs both in Thai;and and Philippines - These studies don't address the effects of consumption by humans as a cause of a low dog population.

As I said before if you "remove" and animal from the population whether for food or just culling it won't make any difference to the overall population as dogs breed so rapidly and profusely that the numbers are almost immediately replaced.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cowslip

[tropo]

You're putting your own spin and morality on everything. This is SE Asia. They do things their own way and have been doing so for centuries. Who are you to come along and judge things according to your own idea of what is right and wrong. I find that offensive.

A couple of years ago I was in the Philippines and chatting to an Australian friend on Skype. Out the back of the house they were slaughtering a pig for a family celebration that day. When they slaughter pigs in the Philippines they make an incredible amount of noise when they slit their throats and in the lead up to it. I don't like it. My friend found it positively repulsive and had to hang up - but the kids and the rest of the family enjoy to watch. They wouldn't even comprehend your disdain at the way they do things. It's part of their culture.

In Pattaya the soi dogs are considered as pets. The soi dogs in my street are very well fed and satisfied. There are hundreds of soi dogs up the road in the park. They are fed every evening by well-to-do Thais who come along in their fancy cars... the cats too. They are also provided with drinking containers all around the park. I even see some Thais tending to these animals and removing ticks. Now here you are, coming along with your Western morality in a country where you're only a guest, deciding this behaviour is no good and should be changed.

Leave them alone. They do things their own way.

[tropo]

Yes and unfortunately there is no support for your premise....it has no logical merit. You are saying that al to of poor people eat dogs - this is probably true but your conclusion flies in the face of both experience and logic.

I think you are blinded to reality. Filipinos have been eating dogs for a long time. The human population density of the Philippines is high and dogs have never had a chance to breed. The only dogs you will see are family pets. Any strays are quickly eaten. The family lost a number of dogs who made it out onto the streets. If you don't lock them in at night they will quickly be taken and eaten.

Dogs are sought after for food. They have a price on their head. You can sell a dog in 5 minutes. With a price on their heads and poor population they are a commodity. You can get 500 to 1000 baht for a dog, instantly. They can't get enough. The family sold a squashed dog for 250.

If soi dogs became a commodity and could be sold, they'd all be gone in a month.

Edited July 19, 2012 by tropo

[TommoPhysicist]

I always assume people who show obsessive behaviour towards dogs (excessive love or hate) are mentally deranged, at best borderline or might be just extremely lonely people. In Thailand dogs are part of the landscape, ignore them like the Thais do.

Edited July 19, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Gary A]

Stray dogs in Issan villages were not a problem before petitions were circulated by the do-gooders. Did you sign the petitions? Now rather than trucks coming around trading plastic buckets for stray dogs, the dogs are being beat to death and poisoned because they resort to killing fowl for food. The several thousand dogs that were rescued from the collection trucks allegedly starved to death because the money donated for feeding them dried up. The do-gooders made no rush to adopt these unwanted dogs.

I have no idea if the captured dogs are humanely killed before they are butchered. I'm not sure I want to know how they kill them. The stray dog trucks did provide a valuable service and death by beating or poison is a horrible way for a dog to die.

[fred110]

Perhaps the OP had disturbing childhood dreams after watching Lassie movies, and his hatred towards 'undesirable' canines is his unconscious mind's desperate attempt at keeping these desires hidden?

You need to reread the OP, maybe you will understand the real problem.

[fred110]

Yes and unfortunately there is no support for your premise....it has no logical merit. You are saying that al to of poor people eat dogs - this is probably true but your conclusion flies in the face of both experience and logic.

I think you are blinded to reality. Filipinos have been eating dogs for a long time. The human population density of the Philippines is high and dogs have never had a chance to breed. The only dogs you will see are family pets. Any strays are quickly eaten. The family lost a number of dogs who made it out onto the streets. If you don't lock them in at night they will quickly be taken and eaten.

Dogs are sought after for food. They have a price on their head. You can sell a dog in 5 minutes. With a price on their heads and poor population they are a commodity. You can get 500 to 1000 baht for a dog, instantly. They can't get enough. The family sold a squashed dog for 250.

If soi dogs became a commodity and could be sold, they'd all be gone in a month.

In Pattaya, when construction workers set up camp, stray dogs in the area disappear. I hope they have a quick painless end.

[tropo]

In Pattaya, when construction workers set up camp, stray dogs in the area disappear. I hope they have a quick painless end.

Interesting theory. In my area 2 big construction sites have just started in the last 2 months. The soi dogs are still around. They actually do better because the construction workers feed them.

BTW, they aren't stray dogs, they're soi dogs.

[cowslip]

In Pattaya, when construction workers set up camp, stray dogs in the area disappear. I hope they have a quick painless end.

Interesting theory. In my area 2 big construction sites have just started in the last 2 months. The soi dogs are still around. They actually do better because the construction workers feed them.

BTW, they aren't stray dogs, they're soi dogs.

now you're splitting hairs

Here's a working definition for you.

Types of stray dog:

• 
  a) free-roaming owned dog not under direct control or restriction at a particular time;
  
  
• 
  b free-roaming dog with no owner;
  
  
• 
  c) feral dog: domestic dog that has reverted to the wild state and is no longer directly dependent upon humans for successful reproduction.
  

Categories "a" and "b" would fit most of the dogs on the streets in Thailand.

"Soi Dog" is a term used by Farags in Thailand.

Most of the points I'm making apply world wide outside Thailand and apply to all doing populations.

I hardly think that a petty-fogging quibble over what we call these animals is either pertinent or constructive

More semantics - the point about food is really not really a "theory" as in the day to day usage it is an established scientific theory and there has a certainty up in the high 90s and run effect could be regarded as fact for the purposes of this discussion.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

Yes and unfortunately there is no support for your premise....it has no logical merit. You are saying that al to of poor people eat dogs - this is probably true but your conclusion flies in the face of both experience and logic.

I think you are blinded to reality. Filipinos have been eating dogs for a long time. The human population density of the Philippines is high and dogs have never had a chance to breed. The only dogs you will see are family pets. Any strays are quickly eaten. The family lost a number of dogs who made it out onto the streets. If you don't lock them in at night they will quickly be taken and eaten.

Dogs are sought after for food. They have a price on their head. You can sell a dog in 5 minutes. With a price on their heads and poor population they are a commodity. You can get 500 to 1000 baht for a dog, instantly. They can't get enough. The family sold a squashed dog for 250.

If soi dogs became a commodity and could be sold, they'd all be gone in a month.

I think you need to make up your mind whether it's poverty or wealth that is creating an appetite for dogs.....and look at the numbers involved in eating them to extinction.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cowslip

[cowslip]

Here's a list of aims that I think it would be helpful for Thailand should aspire to

Dog population control programme objectives

The objectives of a programme to control the dog population may include the following:

1. improve health and welfare of owned and stray dog population;
   
2. reduce numbers of stray dogs to an acceptable level;
   
3. promote responsible ownership;
   
4. assist in the creation and maintenance of a rabies immune or rabies-free dog population;
   
5. reduce the risk of zoonotic diseases other than rabies;
   
6. manage other risks to human health (e.g. parasites);
   
7. prevent harm to the environment and other animal
   

8. prevent illegal trade and trafficking.

[cowslip]

As for Thais "ignoring" dogs - that IMO is a gross misinterpretation of Thai culture or behaviour.

You are confusing "jai yen yen" and an outward lack of concern with a real problem affecting the nation.

How many of my colleagues - I'm talking in hundreds here - will cite dogs in a list off things they dislike.

How many Thai people do you see walking/jogging/even cycling with a stick in their hands

I've seen mothers with babies in prams waiting stationary for a dog in the middle of the road to stop barking at them so they can continue on their way

In Thailand you learn to squat down and pick up - or at least pretend to pick up - a stone.

Many actions in day to day life are affected by these dogs - right down to "nipping out to the shops", "going for a stroll" or simply a quiet night's sleep.

Ignore? sufer in silence more like.

PS - I'm quite happy to call them Soi Dogs - as we all know what I'm talking about - but this of course as I pointed out earlier also covers a multitude of classifications.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cowslip