Gay Rights "Advocates" Sparking Gay Civil Rights Revolution In Latin America

[Jingthing]

Some very encouraging developments have happened/are happening in a number of countries in Latin America spurred on (as is typical) by gay advocates, or call them gay activists if you like.

As is so typical, in today's well connected world, gay advocates in different countries notice and watch what is happening in other countries.

The gay civil rights movement. Truly an international movement. Truly a movement that would be nonexistent in most countries without dedicated gay advocates (or call them activists, up to you).

Great news, you think? Win or lose the battles, over time, in so many countries, these brave gay advocates are winning the war.

Anyone who asserts we don't need these advocates to move equality issues forward are making a hollow, cynical argument. In most countries, hated minority groups don't simply magically get equal rights. You MUST push or you go nowhere.

Interestingly, litigation is proving useful even in cases where majority political acceptance is impossible!

To Leiderman and Botero, it is a case of discrimination that hurts them all. Their contention is being reviewed by Colombia’s highest court in a case that, if successful, would not only upend this conservative country’s social order but also have implications across Latin America, where gay rights advocates are demanding equal rights for same-sex couples.

...

Most prominently in big countries, such as Brazil and Mexico, gay rights advocates are using innovative legal strategies before courts with a progressive bent. That has led to a range of rulings that are giving gays rights that were once unthinkable in a traditionally conservative and Catholic region, including the right to adopt.

...

Javier Corrales, an Amherst College professor who has closely studied the gay rights movement across several countries, said the region may be on the cusp of a revolution. But he described fierce pockets of resistance across the Americas, places where homophobia and violence are common.

...

Facing stacked odds in the region, activists determined that the path toward obtaining rights was not to search out broad-based public support. Instead, they took advantage of the fact that several high courts in the region were increasingly independent and led by judges who view the status quo limiting the gay community as a violation of anti-discrimination laws and international norms, said Jose Miguel Vivanco, the Americas director of Human Rights Watch.

That is how advocates in Colombia made progress.

“The lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender activists worked the political scene and they couldn’t, just couldn’t, get anywhere,” said Rodrigo Uprimny, director of DeJusticia, a Bogota think tank and rights group that has provided legal briefs supporting gay plaintiffs.

“They couldn’t even get minimal things, like rights to an inheritance,” said Uprimny, explaining that activists then turned to the courts. “It was all done through litigation, and it’s worked out real well.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/colombia-legal-challenge-could-set-precedent-on-gay-couples-familial-rights-in-latin-america/2012/08/10/6536cb4e-dd84-11e1-8ad1-909913931f71_story_1.html

[MrRealDeal]

Great news ? Not really news at all just more of the same .... Great news would be a cure for Cancer

I don't consider Gay people getting more and more equality the world over to be news anymore , it's just the way it is and the way it will continue ...... The word new is in news for a reason.

What would qualify as news would be Gay people losing rights not gaining them , but yes it's a good thing when people get what they should already have and thank you for the continual reminders that the world is working the way it's supposed to, albit slowly just in case we forgot from yesterday to today.

[endure]

It must be quite dispiriting to have invested a large proportion of your life into something that's increasingly irrelevant.

[Jingthing]

It must be quite dispiriting to have invested a large proportion of your life into something that's increasingly irrelevant.

This isn't about gay civil rights to you. It's about this weird personal vendetta you have. No, dude, the gay civil rights movement is not irrelevant. Look at a map. It has a long, long, long way to go. Every step of progress, every victory and yes every setback, is indeed a news event.

[endure]

It must be quite dispiriting to have invested a large proportion of your life into something that's increasingly irrelevant.

This isn't about gay civil rights to you. It's about this weird personal vendetta you have. No, dude, the gay civil rights movement is not irrelevant. Look at a map. It has a long, long, long way to go. Every step of progress, every victory and yes every setback, is indeed a news event.

You're the one with the 'weird personal vendetta'. Every time anyone has the temerity to disagree with you you start being abusive and insulting. You impugn their motives and imply, like here, that they have some sort of personal hatred for you. I've told you before but I'll repeat myself just in case you've forgotten. I don't hate you. I've never met you. I disagree with you on many things. I'm as entitled to my opinion as you are. If you feel so threatened by my opinions that you need to insult me then I feel very sorry for you.

Added: At the moment you seem to be having the same argument (that's what it is - not a discussion) with a number of people other than me. Has it occurred to you that all these arguments only have one thing in common?

Edited August 12, 2012 by endure

[isanbirder]

I don't consider Gay people getting more and more equality the world over to be news anymore , it's just the way it is and the way it will continue ...... The word new is in news for a reason.

I agree with you. I think gay civil rights will gradually spread worldwide, irregularly but inexorably. But that doesn't mean there's no room for activists (how I'm coming to hate that word!) to push things along.

[Jingthing]

This is the gay forum and we are free to discuss international issues about gay news/civil rights here. If it doesn't interest you, don't post about it.

[Jingthing]

Don't feel bad , I was standing up for the Rights of Gay people to obtain medical treatments of their choosing and he compared that to the Spanish Inquisition ! LOL

This guy is talking about "cure the gay" conversion groups. Not medical treatments. Please if you're going to post slurs, be honest about what you are talking about.

[Jingthing]

Don't feel bad , I was standing up for the Rights of Gay people to obtain medical treatments of their choosing and he compared that to the Spanish Inquisition ! LOL

This guy is talking about "cure the gay" conversion groups. Not medical treatments. Please if you're going to post slurs, be honest about what you are talking about.

That is a medical treatment just one you don't approve of , and if you consider the truth to be a slur my advice would be to chose what you have to say more carefully so when the truth of what you say is repeated it won't seem like a slur to you.

It is not medical treatment. It is anti-gay brainwashing. It is RELIGIOUSLY dogma based. Not medical. The American psychiatric MEDICAL authorities would NOT sanction it. Some US states are considering making it illegal. Not only is it abusive, it doesn't work, and it leads to SUICIDES. You claim something is medical when it is NOT medical. And here you are on a gay forum sneakily trying to defend our enemies? What is your agenda?

BTW, about whether gay rights victories in Latin America are news or not. Who would you trust to say whether something is news or not, one of the most prominent NEWSpapers in the USA or some chatty gossips on thaivisa? In the Post, this NEWS story was classified on their website under TOP HEADLINES.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It must be quite dispiriting to have invested a large proportion of your life into something that's increasingly irrelevant.

This isn't about gay civil rights to you. It's about this weird personal vendetta you have. No, dude, the gay civil rights movement is not irrelevant. Look at a map. It has a long, long, long way to go. Every step of progress, every victory and yes every setback, is indeed a news event.

You're the one with the 'weird personal vendetta'. Every time anyone has the temerity to disagree with you you start being abusive and insulting. You impugn their motives and imply, like here, that they have some sort of personal hatred for you. I've told you before but I'll repeat myself just in case you've forgotten. I don't hate you. I've never met you. I disagree with you on many things. I'm as entitled to my opinion as you are. If you feel so threatened by my opinions that you need to insult me then I feel very sorry for you.

Added: At the moment you seem to be having the same argument (that's what it is - not a discussion) with a number of people other than me. Has it occurred to you that all these arguments only have one thing in common?

Excuse me, but as usual YOU were the one who started to try to make this personal. How does it feel, etc.? You have a long pattern of trying to personalize issues that I am arguing for, so I don't accept your plea of innocence, not for a moment. If you want to deflect that then stop doing that.

Yes civil rights has been a passion of mine throughout my life. Not only gay civil rights movements but also women's civil rights and racial civil rights. What is wrong with that exactly? IF it was really true that the gay civil rights movement had become "irrelevant" I would be thrilled. But is an absurd distortion to say it is irrelevant. In the vast majority of counties, we are nowhere near equality. In some countries it is very bad and even getting much worse. I reckon the earth will be ravaged by global warming/nuclear self destruction before anyone can say there isn't work to do for the gay civil rights movement. Which is a way of saying I do think global warming and nuclear non-proliferation ARE more important than gay civil rights, but this does happen to be the gay forum.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[MrRealDeal]

Honestly dude I am going to just bow out because the rules simply don't allow for a fair and honest discussion in my opinion. Anything not percieved as pro gay by one of a dozen "moderators" and I'm banned again ..... it's just not worth my time.

[Scott]

That is the wisest thing you have posted in this sub-forum.

[onthemoon]

Don't feel bad , I was standing up for the Rights of Gay people to obtain medical treatments of their choosing and he compared that to the Spanish Inquisition ! LOL

If you are referring to another thread, you weren't standing up for the rights of gay people. You said that they should get treatment. Quite the opposite.

[tombkk]

I don't consider Gay people getting more and more equality the world over to be news anymore , it's just the way it is and the way it will continue ...... The word new is in news for a reason.

I agree with you. I think gay civil rights will gradually spread worldwide, irregularly but inexorably. But that doesn't mean there's no room for activists (how I'm coming to hate that word!) to push things along.

Gay civil rights will not spread automatically. It needs advocates.

[Jingthing]

I don't consider Gay people getting more and more equality the world over to be news anymore , it's just the way it is and the way it will continue ...... The word new is in news for a reason.

I agree with you. I think gay civil rights will gradually spread worldwide, irregularly but inexorably. But that doesn't mean there's no room for activists (how I'm coming to hate that word!) to push things along.

Gay civil rights will not spread automatically. It needs advocates.

Exactly! It's not a fungus!

[tombkk]

Several posts promoting anti-gay "therapies" and the replies have been hidden from view, along with the odd troll and off-topic post. A warning has been issued. This is the gay forum; if you don't like people being gay, refrain from posting.

[onthemoon]

Thanks! Back to the topic, I heard from friends that Ricky Martin has had a very strong influence on the LatAm gay movement. He hasn't been in the charts since he came out, so I wonder how he is doing now.

Edited August 12, 2012 by onthemoon

[Jingthing]

Yes it well known that well loved major celebrities coming out furthers public acceptance of gay people and can certainly create better environments for winning civil rights. However, the article in the OP is interesting because it suggests that in some countries there is good hope for civil rights victories even if the general public widely disapproves.

[LeCharivari]

.... the article in the OP is interesting because it suggests that in some countries there is good hope for civil rights victories even if the general public widely disapproves.

Well, at least this time your quote came from your link, even if you cherry-picked the parts that suit your agenda and overlooked the parts that refute it.

The final two paragraphs in the article paint a very different picture to your view that this is a country where "the general public widely disapproves":

Leiderman and Botero said that in Medellin, they have never faced discrimination or felt uncomfortable. They said they live ordinary lives that revolve around demanding jobs and raising Raquel and Ari.

“For every flamboyant hairdresser, there are probably 10 families just like ours, that don’t look different, don’t sound any different,” Leiderman said. “I don’t have an “L” tattooed on my forehead.”

LGBT are evidently NOT a "hated minority" there, at least NOT YET.

[Jingthing]

Anyone with basic understanding of MACHO culture in Latin America knows the hatred (and it is often violent even murderous) manifests itself much more overtly against GAY MEN! Geez, that is basic. Talk about cherry picking.

LC, what is your agenda here? Deluding yourself and promoting the big lie that there is no problem for gay people anywhere in the world and that this serious problem that the majority of gay people DO perceive (which you deny) will magically fix itself with dedicated gay activists? Well, you are wrong. Totally wrong.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

..... LC, what is your agenda here? Deluding yourself and promoting the big lie that there is no problem for gay people anywhere in the world and that this serious problem that the majority of gay people DO perceive (which you deny) will magically fix itself with dedicated gay activists? Well, you are wrong. Totally wrong.

My "agenda" is simply putting forward some FACTS rather than a "big lie" based on my "imagination".

I have NEVER said or even remotely suggested that "there is no problem for gay people anywhere in the world". I would ask you to give a link to any such suggestion, but as you have never managed to do so before when you have made a "big lie" about what I have said there would be little point.

Your link was a well written, well researched and reasonable article, centred around a legal case bought by two lesbians, but (until edited) it had NOTHING to do with ANYTHING you wrote. The conclusions you draw from it are totally unsupported by it and have no connection with what the article ACTUALLY said.

[Jingthing]

I suggest people read the article themselves then.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

..... In most countries, hated minority groups don't simply magically get equal rights.....

Unfortunately the reality is that in many cases "minority groups" ARE widely accepted but they BECOME a "hated minority group" when the more radical activists get involved and alienate those who would otherwise have no objection to them, at the expense of the vast majority of the group who are accepted, want nothing to do with them and do not want to be associated with them.

All too often they are NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, but EXACERBATING THE PROBLEM and progress can only be made once they cease to be part of the issue. I am not just talking about gays, although obviously gays are central to this forum and thread, but about radicals generally. Relatively few people saw Muslims as a "hated minority group" but now they are undeservedly becoming one in many countries because of the actions of a few - and those radicals, playing the "if you're not with us you're against us" card are polarising public opinion on both sides to nobody's benefit but their own.

All too often, again, these people are disliked as individuals and they are looking for someone to blame for their being "hated" - and if they can find something that they aren't to blame for as an excuse for their being "hated", such as an accident of birth or a commandment from God, then so much the better.

Have a look at those countries where identifiable progress has been made towards not only gay civil rights but also the acceptance of gays (and I am the first to acknowledge that there aren't that many) and you'll find that that progress was only made some time after the Gay Liberation Front and their ilk left the scene.

[Jingthing]

Have you traveled at all in Latin America and talked to some gay men there?

[LeCharivari]

Gay civil rights will not spread automatically. It needs advocates.

Agreed, Tom, but there are "advocates" and there are "ADVOCATES".

In Australia, for example, David Pocock's public support for gay marriage has resulted in far more vocal public support for gay marriage than anything the "gay activist" lobby ever managed.

http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/2012/03/16/christian-marriage-push-escalates/74182

[Jingthing]

Let's call a truce.

How about we agree on some core principles?

For gay civil rights to have a hope to advance in many countries, gay rights advocates are usually needed to move our equality issues forward.

At least at some stages in the struggle.

Some gay rights advocates are more helpful than others.

In some cases, gay rights advocates can even cause harm to the movement and create a backlash bigger than the benefit.

But bottom line, the gay civil rights movement does need our gay civil rights advocates.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Have you traveled at all in Latin America and talked to some gay men there?

I don't see the relevance - I'm not talking about what "I" have or haven't done or seen, or even what "I" think the situation is in Latin America, but what was reported and what is verifiable fact. Egotism and imagination are your department, not mine.

[Jingthing]

Egotism and imagination are your department, not mine.

I'm not really convinced of that, Mr. LC.

I feel you are motivated by a vendetta against what you think I stand for. You hate that I love Harvey Milk and his leftist politics. You are clearly a gay right winger.

Anyway, looking forward to your response to my TRUCE statement. That's probably the best I can do. Any chance you can agree?

Edited August 13, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Egotism and imagination are your department, not mine.

... You hate that I love Harvey Milk and his leftist politics. You are clearly a gay right winger.

You "clearly" either have no idea about politics outside the USA or you haven't read my view of HM or HM's politics - probably both, since I have said before that his politics were far from "leftist" by Western standards and that outside the US he is simply a nobody.

Anyway, looking forward to your response to my TRUCE statement. That's probably the best I can do. Any chance you can agree?

Bottom line: YOUR "gay civil rights advocates" are NOT "OUR gay civil rights advocates". They never will be, they've never been of any use to me, never helped me get any "gay rights" directly or indirectly, and I don't "owe" them anything or want to be associated with them in any way.

[cdnvic]

I removed some personal arguments that were off topic. If anyone chooses to start a fight, they will be removed. Take a step back and calm down everyone.