I Updated My Wheels To 17'' From 15'', I'M Feeling That My Brakes Are Not As Efficient As Before

[transam]

You will have most likely raised the unsprung weight

This is the correct answer. Even a small change in unsprung weight - a kilo - makes a big difference. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably heavier, it will affect braking and steering. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably lighter, it makes a huge difference (improvement) in performance and handling.

I'd suggest that the OP put an old and a new wheel on his bathroom scale.

Why would the new tyre/wheel combo be heavier ?

We have more alloy and less rubber perhaps, alloy is lighter than rubber.

[culicine]

You will have most likely raised the unsprung weight

This is the correct answer. Even a small change in unsprung weight - a kilo - makes a big difference. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably heavier, it will affect braking and steering. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably lighter, it makes a huge difference (improvement) in performance and handling.

I'd suggest that the OP put an old and a new wheel on his bathroom scale.

Why would the new tyre/wheel combo be heavier ?

We have more alloy and less rubber perhaps, alloy is lighter than rubber.

I also noticed when I got my new wheels - I think 7.5 kg for the wheel only. I found the tires alone surprisingly heavy - as much or more than a single wheel. I doubt unsprung weight is the cause of the OP's problems.

[hakku]

Johan, I don't see the technical possibility for brake issues when switching from 15 to 17 on a passenger car. The brake system has plenty to spare. Upto 5% diameter difference doesn't cause problems as rule of thumb. The 1010 website disclaimer for 3% is a USA website hence its low % variation disclaimer. Pick up trucks going from 15 to 20 inch is a non-comparable issue, since these vehicles are NOT made for great stopping and steering so any change will affect the handling on pick ups and its difficult to make it worse.

For your car I see only few variables of which you yourself indicated already one which is "feel" another is Warpie's indication on more tread on the road which also is feel related.

To me it sounds like a pad or disc problem, not related to your new tire /wheel combo but maybe related to the install of the wheels. Did they open up your brakes? Anyway, don't worry about the new wheels. have your brakes checked at a serious place and get some new pads. let us know how it goes.

Transam, bigger wheels are heavier assuming the original ones where alu also. Tire weight doesn't change much and if anything will be heavier too since most of the weight is underneath the tread.

drive safe....

[Jitar]

There is another tyre size calculator at http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp that gives an estimate of tyre and wheel weight difference. These are probably average values but if correct 3 kg out of 17 is a significant increase. Seems most of the weight increase is in the tyre but the OP would need to weigh his wheels to be sure.

WarpSpeed, I have seen the ABS issue mentioned before for tyre size changes and brake upgrades, especially with EBD and stability programs like VSC. I have not come across anyone who has actually encountered this. Do you know any details of how sensitive ABS or stability control is to Tyre & wheel characteristics, (radius, weight grip etc). Effectiveness of ABS can be tested fairly easily but stability control would be tricky.

[arthurwait]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

[hakku]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Come on guys, its an Accord road car, 3kg per wheel, 4 wheels is 12kg, rotation factor of 3, means an estimated impact on performance in all sense of the word of 36kg or half an extra person in the car. Its just not big enough a deal to impact on behavior.

Maybe the brakes were not great before and now its more clear, but really you have to look at the brake system. What brand are the new tires? The old ones are Bridgestones, the new ones I cant place??

[arthurwait]

There is another tyre size calculator at http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp that gives an estimate of tyre and wheel weight difference. These are probably average values but if correct 3 kg out of 17 is a significant increase. Seems most of the weight increase is in the tyre but the OP would need to weigh his wheels to be sure.

WarpSpeed, I have seen the ABS issue mentioned before for tyre size changes and brake upgrades, especially with EBD and stability programs like VSC. I have not come across anyone who has actually encountered this. Do you know any details of how sensitive ABS or stability control is to Tyre & wheel characteristics, (radius, weight grip etc). Effectiveness of ABS can be tested fairly easily but stability control would be tricky.

I'm starting to think weight (inertia) now. Unless I missed it we've all been saying just diameter, but the extra width will increase the weight as well as diameter. OP are the wheels themselves as well as the tyres wider as well by any chance ?

The design of the wheel may also be heavier as well on top of the extra weight charted above.

Does anywhere in Thailand have brake force test equipment ? Also is there anywhere that actually bleeds brakes properly here as well ?

WS suggestion on glazing is probably the first thing to check though.

[arthurwait]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Come on guys, its an Accord road car, 3kg per wheel, 4 wheels is 12kg, rotation factor of 3, means an estimated impact on performance in all sense of the word of 36kg or half an extra person in the car. Its just not big enough a deal to impact on behavior.

Maybe the brakes were not great before and now its more clear, but really you have to look at the brake system. What brand are the new tires? The old ones are Bridgestones, the new ones I cant place??

Maybe right, but we can only keep guessing.

[bino]

Why would the new tyre/wheel combo be heavier ?

Even though alloy is lighter, the new rims are considerably larger than the original steel wheels. Tires could be heavier based on construction type- steel vs. nylon belts et al, especially in truck tires. A/T and M/T tires will be heavier / stronger construction than the equivalent sized H/T.

[JohanBKK]

A single kilo on the wheels will have a huge impact on braking. A passenger sitting in the car is not the same as a wheel with direct contact on the ground.

I found a few "tutorials" on that on french forums (yes i'm french). They also experienced the same issues as me while upgrading because the new stuff was heavier.

I contacted EBC brakes and they told me to upgrade yellow stuff and green stuff on my actual rotors and i should be fine. They can ship the pads from Bangkok for 200 baht extra, total cost is something like 6000 baht.

Better be safe than sorry later for just 6000 baht.

I really feel a difference in the braking system, maybe is just too old as i drive sportively, 14 000 km, 2yrs old brake pads (yes i don't use my car too much).

[Kwasaki]

There is another tyre size calculator at http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp that gives an estimate of tyre and wheel weight difference. These are probably average values but if correct 3 kg out of 17 is a significant increase. Seems most of the weight increase is in the tyre but the OP would need to weigh his wheels to be sure.

WarpSpeed, I have seen the ABS issue mentioned before for tyre size changes and brake upgrades, especially with EBD and stability programs like VSC. I have not come across anyone who has actually encountered this. Do you know any details of how sensitive ABS or stability control is to Tyre & wheel characteristics, (radius, weight grip etc). Effectiveness of ABS can be tested fairly easily but stability control would be tricky.

I wouldn't of thought there would be any sensitivity problems with sensors for the ABS and a sensors for the VSC if the tyre & rim sizes were upgraded if these were to be upset usually a warning light will come on the vehicle instrument panel.

[arthurwait]

Why would the new tyre/wheel combo be heavier ?

Even though alloy is lighter, the new rims are considerably larger than the original steel wheels. Tires could be heavier based on construction type- steel vs. nylon belts et al, especially in truck tires. A/T and M/T tires will be heavier / stronger construction than the equivalent sized H/T.

Are most 'alloy wheels' due to design still heavier than a steel equivilent except high price race wheels ?

[arthurwait]

A single kilo on the wheels will have a huge impact on braking. A passenger sitting in the car is not the same as a wheel with direct contact on the ground.

I found a few "tutorials" on that on french forums (yes i'm french). They also experienced the same issues as me while upgrading because the new stuff was heavier.

I contacted EBC brakes and they told me to upgrade yellow stuff and green stuff on my actual rotors and i should be fine. They can ship the pads from Bangkok for 200 baht extra, total cost is something like 6000 baht.

Better be safe than sorry later for just 6000 baht.

I really feel a difference in the braking system, maybe is just too old as i drive sportively, 14 000 km, 2yrs old brake pads (yes i don't use my car too much).

Prost !

[Kwasaki]

A single kilo on the wheels will have a huge impact on braking. A passenger sitting in the car is not the same as a wheel with direct contact on the ground.

I found a few "tutorials" on that on french forums (yes i'm french). They also experienced the same issues as me while upgrading because the new stuff was heavier.

I contacted EBC brakes and they told me to upgrade yellow stuff and green stuff on my actual rotors and i should be fine. They can ship the pads from Bangkok for 200 baht extra, total cost is something like 6000 baht.

Better be safe than sorry later for just 6000 baht.

I really feel a difference in the braking system, maybe is just too old as i drive sportively, 14 000 km, 2yrs old brake pads (yes i don't use my car too much).

Well whatever don't forget the new pads will need a couple of days the bed-in.

[hakku]

Johan, I really think that good pads (EBC is good) will sort you out.

1 kilo at the wheels makes a difference, especially unsprung and rotating that's why i mentioned a factor of 3, i.e. 3 times actual weight. But please bear in mind that we're talking road car here with very standard sizing. What ever you find and read up on websites for racing, gymkana, rally is of course relevant to road driving, but only to a limited extend.

If you see how many cars are for sale with 15 inch standard and 16 and 17 optional ex factory, they all use the same brake systems and suspension, really no need to overthink all this.

Please let us know how the EBC's perform once you have them in. make sure your discs are smooth and if needed resurface them by grinding of so you have perfect match between new pads and discs.

Good luck

[hakku]

Why would the new tyre/wheel combo be heavier ?

Even though alloy is lighter, the new rims are considerably larger than the original steel wheels. Tires could be heavier based on construction type- steel vs. nylon belts et al, especially in truck tires. A/T and M/T tires will be heavier / stronger construction than the equivalent sized H/T.

Are most 'alloy wheels' due to design still heavier than a steel equivilent except high price race wheels ?

Alloy will be lighter in equivalent sizing.

[WarpSpeed]

There is another tyre size calculator at http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp that gives an estimate of tyre and wheel weight difference. These are probably average values but if correct 3 kg out of 17 is a significant increase. Seems most of the weight increase is in the tyre but the OP would need to weigh his wheels to be sure.

WarpSpeed, I have seen the ABS issue mentioned before for tyre size changes and brake upgrades, especially with EBD and stability programs like VSC. I have not come across anyone who has actually encountered this. Do you know any details of how sensitive ABS or stability control is to Tyre & wheel characteristics, (radius, weight grip etc). Effectiveness of ABS can be tested fairly easily but stability control would be tricky.

Not in numbers but from experience there's no general rule, it's a case by case basis there is some flexibility programmed into the ABS computer for this very purpose but more extreme changes can cause issues albeit rather rare, I was just throwing out another piece of info for consumption..

We've had problems with various cars in the past such as Acura's (American Honda for those who don't know) having issues between tire size increases and becoming more sensitive when a tire is lifted through a corner for example and due in part to the tire size increase which brought up the sensitivity of the ABS and rhythm change from one tire moving dramatically slower then the other 3 it would go into limp home mode and default to the rear brakes and at speed suddenly losing front to rear balance can be require an immediate change of undergarments (if you're wearing any?).. To counter this I installed a cut off switch to the ABS module so we wouldn't have to shut off the car to reset it, an obvious set back during a race if one needed without the switch..

Of course as noted a larger tire/rim combo is going to rotate slower then OEM so the program changes and the amount of pulses required for the ABS to operate properly has to be compensated for in the ABS program.. Additonally I wanted to say that Honda's brakes as a rule are outstanding so highly unlikely as many have mentioned now that it is in any way over it's braking capacity.

[bino]

Are most 'alloy wheels' due to design still heavier than a steel equivilent except high price race wheels ?

There is no way of saying one way or the other with any certainty. If the wheels have a more complicated style / appearance that is meant to look good instead of being focused on performance, they very well could be heavier than a simple pressed steel wheel that is two inches smaller overall diameter.

Taking your bathroom scale along when you go to the tire store might get you some funny looks, but it is the best way to ensure that your new wheels or tires are same or lighter than original.

[WarpSpeed]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Yes but were not talking lost surface contact do to worn struts/dampers he also mentions his car being relatively new..Read unlikely a strut/damper issue..While it does exist it's really a non issue.. As T/A said earlier what if the car has five people and their luggage? Would that weigh more then an extra 3k you suppose? Honda accounted for that I think?

[WarpSpeed]

You will have most likely raised the unsprung weight

This is the correct answer. Even a small change in unsprung weight - a kilo - makes a big difference. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably heavier, it will affect braking and steering. If the new wheels and tires are noticeably lighter, it makes a huge difference (improvement) in performance and handling.

I'd suggest that the OP put an old and a new wheel on his bathroom scale.

Why would the new tyre/wheel combo be heavier ?

We have more alloy and less rubber perhaps, alloy is lighter than rubber.

To some extent but you also add more weight in compacted steel and sidewall rubber in the low profile tire and it's on the outer edge as it were during rotation of a more compact tire so it's more rolling inertia added coupled with increased alloy weight due to larger diameter..More weight gain not less..

[WarpSpeed]

Johan, I don't see the technical possibility for brake issues when switching from 15 to 17 on a passenger car. The brake system has plenty to spare. Upto 5% diameter difference doesn't cause problems as rule of thumb. The 1010 website disclaimer for 3% is a USA website hence its low % variation disclaimer. Pick up trucks going from 15 to 20 inch is a non-comparable issue, since these vehicles are NOT made for great stopping and steering so any change will affect the handling on pick ups and its difficult to make it worse.

For your car I see only few variables of which you yourself indicated already one which is "feel" another is Warpie's indication on more tread on the road which also is feel related.

To me it sounds like a pad or disc problem, not related to your new tire /wheel combo but maybe related to the install of the wheels. Did they open up your brakes? Anyway, don't worry about the new wheels. have your brakes checked at a serious place and get some new pads. let us know how it goes.

Transam, bigger wheels are heavier assuming the original ones where alu also. Tire weight doesn't change much and if anything will be heavier too since most of the weight is underneath the tread.

drive safe....

Yes, spot on and Honda's brakes are usually outstanding and would have no issue compensating.

Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[bino]

As T/A said earlier what if the car has five people and their luggage? Would that weigh more then an extra 3k you suppose?

No. Unsprung weight is constant whether the car is empty or packed full of bricks.

What matters here is the load rating of the tire. The load rating of the tire multiplied by four for four wheels must be higher than the gross weight of the car - full of passengers, luggage, full tank of gas et al.

[WarpSpeed]

^Agreed.................................................On a race track....................................

On bumpy......melted........destroyed by overloaded truck roads it will mean the dampers (which we don't know the condition of) would have more of a job to control the bump/rebound of the heavier wheel and tyre. Especially under hard braking with weight transferred to the front wheels. Contact patch would be more settled on a smooth track. Although yes harder driving on the track would make it more important, but the OP says he drives fast.

Come on guys, its an Accord road car, 3kg per wheel, 4 wheels is 12kg, rotation factor of 3, means an estimated impact on performance in all sense of the word of 36kg or half an extra person in the car. Its just not big enough a deal to impact on behavior.

Maybe the brakes were not great before and now its more clear, but really you have to look at the brake system. What brand are the new tires? The old ones are Bridgestones, the new ones I cant place??

A tiny mia noi at that .. Yes your example of his brakes being suspect before is spot on as well this upgrade would have magnified and aggravated any deficiency that already existed but much less noticeable previously and that brings another thought I had, on another member having brake problems with his relatively new Civic a few years ago and it sounded to me like warped rotors as he had driven heavy through some elevations and braked hard just after having purchased the car without bedding in the new rotors and it was still under warrantee so I told him to bring them back and have them checked for warping and he did and was then veeery happy to have his problem solved with new rotors.. So maybe Thai Hondas aren't exactly top spec when it comes to rotor quality..

[WarpSpeed]

There is another tyre size calculator at http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp that gives an estimate of tyre and wheel weight difference. These are probably average values but if correct 3 kg out of 17 is a significant increase. Seems most of the weight increase is in the tyre but the OP would need to weigh his wheels to be sure.

WarpSpeed, I have seen the ABS issue mentioned before for tyre size changes and brake upgrades, especially with EBD and stability programs like VSC. I have not come across anyone who has actually encountered this. Do you know any details of how sensitive ABS or stability control is to Tyre & wheel characteristics, (radius, weight grip etc). Effectiveness of ABS can be tested fairly easily but stability control would be tricky.

I'm starting to think weight (inertia) now. Unless I missed it we've all been saying just diameter, but the extra width will increase the weight as well as diameter. OP are the wheels themselves as well as the tyres wider as well by any chance ?

The design of the wheel may also be heavier as well on top of the extra weight charted above.

Does anywhere in Thailand have brake force test equipment ? Also is there anywhere that actually bleeds brakes properly here as well ?

WS suggestion on glazing is probably the first thing to check though.

I've already covered this Arthur absolutely the wheels and tires are wider and heavier but that's negligible and not a factor as for brake testing equipment EVERY inspection station has them and uses them to inspect the cars..Only those poor bastad's like me with older cars would know that though .. Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

As T/A said earlier what if the car has five people and their luggage? Would that weigh more then an extra 3k you suppose?

No. Unsprung weight is constant whether the car is empty or packed full of bricks.

What matters here is the load rating of the tire. The load rating of the tire multiplied by four for four wheels must be higher than the gross weight of the car - full of passengers, luggage, full tank of gas et al.

Meh! Now I'M being educated on un-sprung weight?? Comical really, you completely missed the point, I'm not going to debate it beyond my explanations it's too tire some (pardon the pun) and time consuming but think of it in this context, regardless of whether or not it's un-sprung weight the brakes STILL NEED TO STOP THE ENTIRE PACKAGE as one unit END OF.. It's rolling resistance that is the demon here not un-sprung weight which has it's greatest impact in handling not braking BTW.. Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

A single kilo on the wheels will have a huge impact on braking. A passenger sitting in the car is not the same as a wheel with direct contact on the ground.

I found a few "tutorials" on that on french forums (yes i'm french). They also experienced the same issues as me while upgrading because the new stuff was heavier.

I contacted EBC brakes and they told me to upgrade yellow stuff and green stuff on my actual rotors and i should be fine. They can ship the pads from Bangkok for 200 baht extra, total cost is something like 6000 baht.

Better be safe than sorry later for just 6000 baht.

I really feel a difference in the braking system, maybe is just too old as i drive sportively, 14 000 km, 2yrs old brake pads (yes i don't use my car too much).

(EBC? I'll leave it at that ) What about the rotors Johan silly if not foolish to upgrade pads without matching new rotors and are they or aren't they glazed? If you just change pads you may make a bit of difference but not get maximum benefit as the rotors if not glazed to begin with will still have high and low spots from previous wear that will not make full contact with the new pads.. Even possibly making your problem worse and ruining a new set of pads and sending you in circles if the rotors are glazed already?

BTW I don't mean literally "sending you in circles" like spinning out of control, I meant repeating same problems..

Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

There is another tyre size calculator at http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp that gives an estimate of tyre and wheel weight difference. These are probably average values but if correct 3 kg out of 17 is a significant increase. Seems most of the weight increase is in the tyre but the OP would need to weigh his wheels to be sure.

WarpSpeed, I have seen the ABS issue mentioned before for tyre size changes and brake upgrades, especially with EBD and stability programs like VSC. I have not come across anyone who has actually encountered this. Do you know any details of how sensitive ABS or stability control is to Tyre & wheel characteristics, (radius, weight grip etc). Effectiveness of ABS can be tested fairly easily but stability control would be tricky.

I wouldn't of thought there would be any sensitivity problems with sensors for the ABS and a sensors for the VSC if the tyre & rim sizes were upgraded if these were to be upset usually a warning light will come on the vehicle instrument panel.

Yes, possibly the ABS light in most cases, my post was in general for overall informational purposes not expressly relating to his brake issues..

[WarpSpeed]

Are most 'alloy wheels' due to design still heavier than a steel equivilent except high price race wheels ?

There is no way of saying one way or the other with any certainty. If the wheels have a more complicated style / appearance that is meant to look good instead of being focused on performance, they very well could be heavier than a simple pressed steel wheel that is two inches smaller overall diameter.

Taking your bathroom scale along when you go to the tire store might get you some funny looks, but it is the best way to ensure that your new wheels or tires are same or lighter than original.

All alloy wheel weights are stamped in the back of the wheel so leave the bathroom scale at home which is at best only half accurate as the weight of the wheel can't sit properly centered on a bathroom scale given the pick up points for the scale are outside the center and just get one steel wheel weighed to compare with.. A pretty good rule is to use common sense, if there appears to be big areas of alloy making up the design the wheel is probably not going to be lighter if uprated sizing, but if you like them who cares? I'm guessing you're not racing on them. Anyway it's been real and it's been fun, but not real fun, got important things to do, carry on..

You know? I stupidly overlooked this thought, Jahon you're in Bangkok yes? PM me and though I'm very busy these days I'll see if we can meet up in the next day or so if that suits you, actually tomorrow would work with a bit of notice and I'll have a look at your car and if you trust me we'll give it a quick test drive if necessary? I'll not need to drive it much if an obvious issue exists, I'll diagnose it..

Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Somehow I missed 2 previous posts and basically repeated verbatim what they said regarding brakes and the new pads especially Hak's post but anyways better to be redundant then not cover it at all..

On a bit of a side note and off topic I hope the OP & mods will indulge me.

T/A you mentioned having vertigo? I had a pretty serious on track accident at speed in Daytona several years ago, semi head on with the wall, due to a mechanical failure and it rang my bell pretty massively and honestly almost killed me. I had vertigo for several months thereafter and still get bouts occasionally and it sucks to be sure. My doctors couldn't find any cause initially but eventually recommended a treatment to try at home so why not? It worked and it was due to calcium crystals that had collected in my inner ear over time that got displaced when I impacted the wall and put pressure on nerves in the inner ear.

Here's a link to a website with a simple at home treatment, give it a try, nothing to loose except that nasty vertigo feeling and everything to gain.. Good luck hope it helps out, vertigo sucks!

http://women.webmd.c...r-vertigo-works

Disregard the "women" notation in the link this is for real info not a jab in any way...Likewise no wise cracks about this being a women's treatment either!

Edited August 28, 2012 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Somehow I missed 2 previous posts and basically repeated verbatim what they said regarding brakes and the new pads especially Hak's post but anyways better to be redundant then not cover it at all..

On a bit of a side note and off topic I hope the OP & mods will indulge me.

T/A you mentioned having vertigo? I had a pretty serious on track accident at speed in Daytona several years ago, semi head on with the wall, due to a mechanical failure and it rang my bell pretty massively and honestly almost killed me. I had vertigo for several months thereafter and still get bouts occasionally and it sucks to be sure. My doctors couldn't find any cause initially but eventually recommended a treatment to try at home so why not? It worked and it was due to calcium crystals that had collected in my inner ear over time that got displaced when I impacted the wall and put pressure on nerves in the inner ear.

Here's a link to a website with a simple at home treatment, give it a try, nothing to loose except that nasty vertigo feeling and everything to gain.. Good luck hope it helps out, vertigo sucks!

http://women.webmd.c...r-vertigo-works

Disregard the "women" notation in the link this is for real info not a jab in any way...

Mine is because of Psiratic Arthritis affecting the bones in my middle ear , had to sell my boat cos of sea sickness caused by this shit. BUT, suppose at my age must be happy l am still here with great memories.