Paradox Lies At The Heart Of Thai Quest For Justice

[webfact]

ANALYSIS

Paradox lies at the heart of Thai quest for justice

Tulsathit Taptim,

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Red-shirt 'terror', Army 'sniper' cases illustrate the Kingdom's dilemma

BANGKOK: -- On the surface, it seems fair. One "state" agency, the Attorney General's Office, is pursuing "terrorism" cases against some red shirt members, while one "government" agency, the Department of Special Investigation, is going after those "responsible" for shooting the red shirts.

Fairness, however, may exist only on paper. Pessimists see no way forward that Thailand can go from here. How can two agencies, which are under government influence one way or another, handle cases that underline the country's political divide? In other words, how can we expect justice from this kind of situation?

(click HERE for larger image)

The mother of a woman killed during a crackdown on red shirt protesters is still seeking justice for her daughter.

The wife of an Army officer killed while attempting to repel a red shirt protest earlier is still wearing black and will continue to do so "until peace returns to this country".

How can the first woman see justice and the second one see peace restored with partisan politics playing a bigger role than truth where the cases of their loved ones are concerned?

One may argue that this supposed two-pronged quest for justice is as good as can be expected. For obvious reasons, the Democrat government was paying little or no attention to the alleged "massacre" of protesters. Supporters of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra say that at least her administration is allowing both camps to tell their stories.

There is also the argument that the Attorney General's Office is supposed to have a large degree of independence.

This school of thought points out that although the agency has a duty to provide legal assistance to the government, it is, legally at least, a neutral state agency, not a government agency.

The pessimists cannot see justice being served, however. And even if everybody tries his best, a paradox can occur.

For example, what will happen if the "terrorism" charges eventually hold and red shirt leaders are convicted of crimes against national security, whereas the "massacre" charges also win conviction at the same time?

We could have the extreme scenario of the two cases ending with both sides being found guilty - the red shirts of being terrorists and the authorities of being "murderers" - or we could be left with a scenario of one case dictating or compromising the other.

Why? Because the two cases are obviously related. This means if some red shirt members are convicted of terrorism, the case against the authorities deemed responsible for the shooting of protesters could be automatically weakened.

On the other hand, if the "terrorist" suspects are acquitted, the "massacre" claims will carry a lot more weight.

To add to the apparently messy situation, the DSI, which is now handling charges against the shooters, earlier conducted a probe into the activities of those who were shot and their fellow protesters.

During the Abhisit government, the DSI was accused of kow-towing to that administration. Now, the agency is being criticised for allowing itself to be dictated to by

the Yingluck government.

Payao Ak-had, mother of slain nurse Kaedkamol Akhad, said she believes the DSI is now heading in the right direction with the summoning of "snipers" for questioning. She is very disturbed by Army Chief Prayuth Chan-ocha's warning that no one should make any sort of accusation about the Army's use of snipers.

"The tradition that the Army can kill citizens with impunity is no longer acceptable.

"Things have changed," Payao told The Nation.

Payao said she will soon visit the DSI to offer moral support and flowers and warned Prayuth that the more he reacts negatively to the on-going investigation, the more he will harm the reputation of the Army. She urged the Army to stop trying to intimidate investigators and added that even though she is not fully confident that the truth will eventually emerge, many in Thai society have already decided who was responsible for the deaths.

The other woman, Nicha Thuwatham, wife of the late Colonel Romklao Thuwatham, was once told - rather ironically - by the DSI that men associated with protesters campaigning against the Abhisit government killed her husband. That was many months ago. Whether the DSI still stands firm on that is anyone's guess.

Romklao was promoted from colonel to general after his death. Apart from that, there has been little to console Nicha, who has also sought a Senate investigation into the death of her husband, as the government's probe seems to be going nowhere.

In today's Thailand, the concept of "justice" is divided along political lines. The word is one of the most over-hyped and under-appreciated. And if the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand was once considered a light at the end of the tunnel, that light has all but dimmed. The TRCT has virtually ceased to exist after its term came to an end with nobody interested in extending it.

That the TRCT's reports politically benefit no one in particular is no secret. Whether that is why the commission has to fade away is the question that can sum up Thailand's miserable quest for justice at the moment.

-- The Nation 2012-08-27

[webfact]

ANALYSIS

Govt ties with army strained by legal ploy

Avudh Panananda

The Nation

Defence permanent secretary General Sathien Permthong-in

Bid to pressure Democrats over 2010 crackdown appears to have backfired

BANGKOK: -- With the government struggling to pin down the Democrats, it has ended up antagonising the Army and disappointing the red shirts.

If Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra lets the situation remain volatile, the country is at risk of going through a political rough patch and the government will falter due to its foolhardiness.

Last Friday, the Defence Council held a critical meeting, which should serve as a wake-up call for coalition politicians.

Based on meeting insiders, Defence Minister Sukampol Suwannathat was a lone figure forced to sit and listen to the collective voices of the senior echelons from all branches of the armed forces.

It is particularly interesting that Defence permanent secretary General Sathien Permthong-in, seen as a staunch ally of the red-shirt movement, has openly abandoned his direct boss Sukampol to side with the armed forces.

After sidelining Sukampol, the meeting decided to nominate deputy Army chief Dapong Ratanasuwan as the first secretary-general of the new Operations Centre for the Southern Border Provinces. That was seen as an act of defiance by the top brass, as the government had made it very clear that it wanted Army chief-of-staff Sirichai Distakul for the job.

The day before the meeting, National Security Council secretary-general Wichean Potephosree even said he was about to include General Sirichai in the staff for the centre. Wichean made his remarks to the press after receiving the green light directly from PM Yingluck.

The top brass had never before convened their council to meddle in any appointments made outside their jurisdiction. But in this extraordinary case, their chilling message is crystal clear - the armed forces are ready to confront the government if necessary.

In an astute reaction, Yingluck made a face-saving move by instructing the Council of State to review the legal provisions related to the formation of the centre. The staffing of the centre has been delayed and tension defused for the time being.

To understand why the five-star generals appear out of sync with their political overseers, it is necessary to look at the ongoing struggle between the government and the opposition over fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's pulling the strings to rein in the Democrats.

Yingluck is actually a bystander who has to deal with the damage inflicted on her administration because she cannot override her brother. The convergence of two courses of action is at the core of the conflict. In the first course, Sukampol is Thaksin's hatchet man trying to realign the military's executive team.

In the second course, Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung is Thaksin's point man trying to engineer a legal breakthrough designed to pave the way for the prosecution of then prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and his deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban in connection with the 2010 political strife.

Sukampol flew to Hong Kong last month to confer with Thaksin on the annual military reshuffle, while Chalerm, overseer of police as well as the Department of Special Investi-gation, has allegedly given his blessing to the build-up of court cases against Abhisit and Suthep.

In Thai politics, there is nothing unusual about the exchange of sharp words between the coalition and opposition benches.

Only the fate of Thaksin makes the Democrat-Pheu Thai struggle deviate from past precedents.

If Thaksin wants to evade punishment and end his self-imposed exile, then he has to have complete backing from the military, seen as the last bastion of the ruling establishment or the bureaucratic polity.

He also has to silence the Democrats' opposition to him getting a pardon.

To facilitate a homecoming for Thaksin, it makes sense for the government to apply pressure on the Democrats. But the traps laid for the opposition look to have sprung on the government instead of catching the Democrats.

Sukampol's attempts to influence the military line-up are seen by the top brass as unacceptable intervention to weaken the military as an institution. Even red-leaning officers, like Sathien, have revolted. And the new roster envisioned by Sukampol and Thaksin has not benefited the red-leaning officers or their movement.

Legal minds in the pro-Thaksin camp may have hoped to use the 2010 bloodshed to snare the two senior Democrats and force them to stop blocking an amnesty for Thaksin. The plans to prosecute the two have inadvertently heaped blame on the troops, triggering the military's wrath.

Without cooperation from the military, the government is likely to end up with no cases. The red shirts will remain discontented that their blood was spilled without accountability. The harder the government works to get the soldiers to change their statements on the violent incidents, the more this will backfire and alienate the armed forces.

It is high time for Yingluck to hold an open-hearted discussion with her brother, and urge him to think things through before throwing the baby out with the bathwater in his quest to outwit the Democrats.

-- The Nation 2012-08-27

[Moruya]

Thaksin in motion cooking the legal books

[chainarong]

Lies , lies and more dammed lies, no one is man enough to stand up and say this is what happened, I must save face, not allowed to let the team down , show the country I am weak, obey , can you imagine what stuff is going to come out of China when it starts to go south, this is called in part, the Asian allowance, don't question and must save face , regardless of the out comes.

[chotthee]

White lie is good. Just say all the death and injured are caused by accident. End of story.

What good would it be if the family of the death know the truth? After all revenge and/or conviction will not bring back the dead.

[OzMick]

White lie is good. Just say all the death and injured are caused by accident. End of story.

What good would it be if the family of the death know the truth? After all revenge and/or conviction will not bring back the dead.

How very Thai, if something is embarrassing, just lie about it. But wouldn't it be better to say they were suicides, and spontaneous combustion for the arson attacks?

[chotthee]

White lie is good. Just say all the death and injured are caused by accident. End of story.

What good would it be if the family of the death know the truth? After all revenge and/or conviction will not bring back the dead.

How very Thai, if something is embarrassing, just lie about it. But wouldn't it be better to say they were suicides, and spontaneous combustion for the arson attacks?

Let by gone be by gone.

Time have already heal the wound, why cut it up again, so it can be stitched properly.

[WhizBang]

Let by gone be by gone.

Time have already heal the wound, why cut it up again, so it can be stitched properly.

If you think time has already healed all the wounds, you are really out of touch with reality.

Oh right, you must be Thai. Head in the sand, mei pen rai, etc, etc.

Had justice actually been served immediately after the demonstrations, then today, perhaps the wounds would be healed. But thanks to the red shirts insistance that they did no wrong and ONLY government forces were to blame for everything that happened, instead of a healing process, we have an infected wound, that sooner or later is going to have to be amputated.

The man from afar must be held accountable for everything that happened. He should be charged with treason and then forgotten, never to be mentioned again.

[bigbamboo]

Paradox.....didn't he used to be good at tennis?

[Jawnie]

I was learning a little about how the Thai government and military interact while reading this article. Then, the article went into the ditch by going off on yet another anti-Thaksin diatribe. Writing about Thaksin is no longer news, it is just sour grapes and bubble-gummer politics.

The Army and military, as a de facto independent and separate branch of government, is vastly more damaging to Thai governance that Thaksin. Anyone who thinks the current position and role in Thai society is correct is a danger to Thai democracy and society as well. Pity the millions of everyday Thais relying on this government/Army for the education of their children and for a better future for themselves. They are forgotten.

[Pseudolus]

They should tweak the headline a tad. That's more like it.

"Lies" at the heart of Thai justice

That's more like it.

[Jawnie]

White lie is good. Just say all the death and injured are caused by accident. End of story.

What good would it be if the family of the death know the truth? After all revenge and/or conviction will not bring back the dead.

How very Thai, if something is embarrassing, just lie about it. But wouldn't it be better to say they were suicides, and spontaneous combustion for the arson attacks?

Let by gone be by gone.

Time have already heal the wound, why cut it up again, so it can be stitched properly.

Obviously, you did not have a father, mother, sister, brother, son, or daughter shot, wounded or killed by the Army. You would not say this if your family member or friend had died. As another poster said, you are waaaay out of touch on this one.

[billd766]

Well, not wishing to be picky (yes I do) but the picture in the first post has soldiers armed with shotguns hiving an effective range depending on the ammunition of about 30 metres, the others weapons are just standard rifles with an effective range of about 300 metres unless you are very good or very lucky.

Snipers rifles are usually hand built to the finest tolerances, normally used on bipods or tripods and have an effective range of more than 1,000 metres depending again on the ammunition and the skills of the sniper. Wind, weather and seasons have a lot to pay in determining how good a sniper is too.

Snipers are also normally long term career soldiers given the skills required and the time needed to train them.

[Jawnie]

Well, not wishing to be picky (yes I do) but the picture in the first post has soldiers armed with shotguns hiving an effective range depending on the ammunition of about 30 metres, the others weapons are just standard rifles with an effective range of about 300 metres unless you are very good or very lucky.

Snipers rifles are usually hand built to the finest tolerances, normally used on bipods or tripods and have an effective range of more than 1,000 metres depending again on the ammunition and the skills of the sniper. Wind, weather and seasons have a lot to pay in determining how good a sniper is too.

Snipers are also normally long term career soldiers given the skills required and the time needed to train them.

Agreed. The troops in the photo look as though they been posed in that alignment. They way they are lined up moving away from the barrier doesn't make sense. However, this is hardly evidence to counter the fact that Army shooters killed a lot of innocent people.

[Moruya]

White lie is good. Just say all the death and injured are caused by accident. End of story.

What good would it be if the family of the death know the truth? After all revenge and/or conviction will not bring back the dead.

How very Thai, if something is embarrassing, just lie about it. But wouldn't it be better to say they were suicides, and spontaneous combustion for the arson attacks?

Let by gone be by gone.

Time have already heal the wound, why cut it up again, so it can be stitched properly.

Obviously, you did not have a father, mother, sister, brother, son, or daughter shot, wounded or killed by the Army. You would not say this if your family member or friend had died. As another poster said, you are waaaay out of touch on this one.

They all took the PTP shilling and surrendered their right to take action against the government

[OzMick]

Agreed. The troops in the photo look as though they been posed in that alignment. They way they are lined up moving away from the barrier doesn't make sense. However, this is hardly evidence to counter the fact that Army shooters killed a lot of innocent people.

<deleted>! Have a look at the timeline in the OP. 10th April the RTA in riot control gear were poised to carry out an order given by the legitimate government to disperse a long running and often violent protest. Before the dispersal could begin, they were attacked, 5 soldiers killed and many more injured.

ANYWHERE in the bloody world, when protesters start killing and wounding security personnel, things are going to get ugly double quick time. Protesters were given many chances and orders to disperse before the final clearance. Even if they believed the government had no right to order the end of the protest, anyone with half a brain should have known what was coming. I lay the guilt directly on the mercenary propagandists that fed these people lies and half truth distortions, and their paymasters.

I have sympathy for the innocents caught up in this, less for those who put themselves in a dangerous situation to make money, but very little for those willing to risk death in an illegal attempt to restore the most corrupt PM this country has ever known.

[billd766]

One thing has always confused me about that time period and it is that (apparently) tens of thousands of rounds of live ammunition were expended.

Having fired all this ammuntition I would have expected many more casualties and large amounts of collateral damage to buildings, vehicles etc but there doesn't seem to be much.

Given that they were firing down Silom road in both directions there should logically be a lot of bullet damage everywhere along the roadeven if the rounds were fired over the crowds.

A bullet slows down as soon as it is fired and even if you fire into the air, gravity dictates it must come down somewhere.

So where did all the bullets that were fired actually go to or were there not that many fired as we have been led to believe?

[skorchio]

Isn't Thai politic such a juvenile game? To me it seems everyone is 11 yrs old or under, and some of the kids are smarter than the other kids, and the smart ones make the rules as they go along and when the less smart kids eventually cotton on to what has just happened, they don't want to look stupid for not cottoning on earlier, so they vote for the same smart kids again.

[Moruya]

One thing has always confused me about that time period and it is that (apparently) tens of thousands of rounds of live ammunition were expended.

Having fired all this ammuntition I would have expected many more casualties and large amounts of collateral damage to buildings, vehicles etc but there doesn't seem to be much.

Given that they were firing down Silom road in both directions there should logically be a lot of bullet damage everywhere along the roadeven if the rounds were fired over the crowds.

A bullet slows down as soon as it is fired and even if you fire into the air, gravity dictates it must come down somewhere.

So where did all the bullets that were fired actually go to or were there not that many fired as we have been led to believe?

The Royal Thai Army had several battalions of troops armed with tubs of Pollyfilla and several shades of paint that could cover all traces of bullet damage in seconds.

They also used new technology that could identify any expired red shirt, beam him to a graveyard in Chonburi and age the body by several decades.

There can be no other explanation.

Unless there were paid for renegade soldiers whose brief was to shoot as many high profile people as possible and blame the army whilst the real army was using blanks.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Moruya

[asiawatcher]

Innocent people killed? By whose hand? And for what reason? Simply push and shove and it all went south. When you break the law, and the Police do nothing, the resolution will always be bloody. It's a wonder civil war did not break out, but that one is still on the red agenda, just needing their cowardly leader to return.

[scar2]

Agreed. The troops in the photo look as though they been posed in that alignment. They way they are lined up moving away from the barrier doesn't make sense. However, this is hardly evidence to counter the fact that Army shooters killed a lot of innocent people.

<deleted>! Have a look at the timeline in the OP. 10th April the RTA in riot control gear were poised to carry out an order given by the legitimate government to disperse a long running and often violent protest. Before the dispersal could begin, they were attacked, 5 soldiers killed and many more injured.

ANYWHERE in the bloody world, when protesters start killing and wounding security personnel, things are going to get ugly double quick time. Protesters were given many chances and orders to disperse before the final clearance. Even if they believed the government had no right to order the end of the protest, anyone with half a brain should have known what was coming. I lay the guilt directly on the mercenary propagandists that fed these people lies and half truth distortions, and their paymasters.

I have sympathy for the innocents caught up in this, less for those who put themselves in a dangerous situation to make money, but very little for those willing to risk death in an illegal attempt to restore the most corrupt PM this country has ever known.

The truth in a few word, well said.

[noitom]

Whatever happened to all the speculation that it was the Thahan Phran? Brought in by who knows who? Whatever happened to all the speculation about the general sadang daeng? He was all the rage for quite a while.

[SuneeTH]

Whatever happened to all the speculation that it was the Thahan Phran? Brought in by who knows who? Whatever happened to all the speculation about the general sadang daeng? He was all the rage for quite a while.

Blame the Thahan Phran?

What is the Thahan Phran?

[smedly]

Agreed. The troops in the photo look as though they been posed in that alignment. They way they are lined up moving away from the barrier doesn't make sense. However, this is hardly evidence to counter the fact that Army shooters killed a lot of innocent people.

<deleted>! Have a look at the timeline in the OP. 10th April the RTA in riot control gear were poised to carry out an order given by the legitimate government to disperse a long running and often violent protest. Before the dispersal could begin, they were attacked, 5 soldiers killed and many more injured.

ANYWHERE in the bloody world, when protesters start killing and wounding security personnel, things are going to get ugly double quick time. Protesters were given many chances and orders to disperse before the final clearance. Even if they believed the government had no right to order the end of the protest, anyone with half a brain should have known what was coming. I lay the guilt directly on the mercenary propagandists that fed these people lies and half truth distortions, and their paymasters.

I have sympathy for the innocents caught up in this, less for those who put themselves in a dangerous situation to make money, but very little for those willing to risk death in an illegal attempt to restore the most corrupt PM this country has ever known.

The truth in a few word, well said.

That post should be on the front page of the Nation - frank - to the point - and accurate

[Ricardo]

Whatever happened to all the speculation that it was the Thahan Phran? Brought in by who knows who? Whatever happened to all the speculation about the general sadang daeng? He was all the rage for quite a while.

Blame the Thahan Phran?

What is the Thahan Phran?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thahan_Phran

[billd766]

Whatever happened to all the speculation that it was the Thahan Phran? Brought in by who knows who? Whatever happened to all the speculation about the general sadang daeng? He was all the rage for quite a while.

Blame the Thahan Phran?

What is the Thahan Phran?

From the way you are writing I assumed that you are Thai.

If you don't know something, Google is your friend.

[Moruya]

Whatever happened to all the speculation that it was the Thahan Phran? Brought in by who knows who? Whatever happened to all the speculation about the general sadang daeng? He was all the rage for quite a while.

Blame the Thahan Phran?

What is the Thahan Phran?

Also known as scampi.

[Ricardo]

Whatever happened to all the speculation that it was the Thahan Phran? Brought in by who knows who? Whatever happened to all the speculation about the general sadang daeng? He was all the rage for quite a while.

Blame the Thahan Phran?

What is the Thahan Phran?

Also known as scampi.

Not to forget their attractive female-auxiliaries, the Phran Crackers ?

[Thai at Heart]

Moral right doesn't work in a court. Its perfectly feasible that both sides broke the law. There is no conundrum just legal rights and wrongs.