Thai Govt Has Failed To Solve Land Inequity

[webfact]

Govt has failed to solve land inequity

Janjira Pongrai

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The government's failure to resolve land problems has led to farmer's poverty, a seminar held by the Land Reform Network and Local Action Links was told yesterday.

The seminar, entitled "Government and its One Year to Solve Land Problems and Agricultural Structure: A Step Forward or Back?", was held at the Thai Journalists Association.

"The government has done nothing to solve land problems as it had promised at the House last year," Pongthip Samranjit of Local Action Links said, adding that large swathes of land were still mostly owned by wealthy people.

According to a recent survey, 421 politicians own more than 27,000 rai, with some individuals owning over 2,000 rai.

Last year, the government announced its policies in the House, saying it would solve land problems by creating fairness and eliminating inequity of landownership among farmers. It said that it would also distribute land to poor people.

"A lot of poor people living in areas that overlap forest reserves who were waiting to prove their land rights were arrested by the Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation [DNP]," Pongthip said. She said the DNP had destroyed rubber plantations belonging to people in Trang's Khao Ban Thad Mountain despite them having community title deeds.

"Instead of solving problems, the government created a conflict among the locals by cracking down on those living in areas overlapping forest reserves," she said.

Associate Professor Somchai Preechasilpakil, a law lecturer of Chiang Mai University, said no government in the past has done anything to resolve land problems, especially for the 1.5 million people living in areas overlapping forest reserves.

-- The Nation 2012-08-28

[Thai at Heart]

Now this really is unfair. NO Thai government has tackled this issue for ever. So let's hope that maybe this one will.

Not likely but you never know.

[jerrysteve]

There must be a lot of quid involved for it to drag on this long year after year after year.

[OzMick]

"areas overlapping forest reserves" - what a cute little euphemism for encroachment.

[ramrod711]

According to a recent survey, 421 politicians own more than 27,000 rai, with some individuals owning over 2,000 rai.

Anyone surprised that there are no property taxes? I'm not sure what fairness has to do with land ownership, unless you're talking about rich people buying and holding land, preventing development. Property taxes would curtail that somewhat. I know that some villages give land for people to live on, they don't own it but they can build a home and have the uswe of it for life. As far as I know that doesn't happen in North America.

[SuneeTH]

The Chinese are the late comers, yet they now own 90% of the land (my educated guess).

Thais can do 2 things:

- Give out more public forest land to the poor Thai farmers (like Robin Hood).

- Take back land from Chinese migrants and give it to the Thai natives (like in many African countries where white man land were confiscated).

[JoePai]

The Chinese are the late comers, yet they now own 90% of the land (my educated guess).

Thais can do 2 things:

- Give out more public forest land to the poor Thai farmers (like Robin Hood).

- Take back land from Chinese migrants and give it to the Thai natives (like in many African countries where white man land were confiscated).

Unfortunately the place would collapse without the Chinese

[maidu]

All good response posts. There are some v. basic things that legislators could enact, but they're afraid, and they're land hoarders themselves. Essentially, there are NO taxes for property outside of cities in Thailand. Many large tracts are owned by rich, and left to grow weeds. And yes, Chinese Thais are probably the worst culprits re; hoarding and doing-nothing with land.

It's a national disgrace, but neither this government nor Thai governments prior nor ensuing will lift a finger to do what's right. Thailand is very stratified: super rich and pampered at the top, masses of underlings at the bottom.

Unfortunately the place would collapse without the Chinese

No, not collapse. At first confusion, but then Thais would take over running companies, and Thailand would be more of a mish-mash like Cambodia. With Chinese owning everything, we get cold-hearted businesses. With Thais, it would be more humanistic/warmer, but more haphazard and excuse-ridden.

Edited August 28, 2012 by maidu

[abhaya]

Once they disposess all the Thai/Chinese of their assets they may as well just kick out all the falangs as well. Unlike most other places in SE Asia the folks of Chinese descent here truly identify themselves with being Thai first and oftimes remotely Chinese second. If there were any Jews (aside from Israeli tourists) some f***wit on this site would blame them too. Go crawl back in your holes!

[tomross46]

What about Alpine Golf course and land development. Which is now owned by the Shintiawt Group. This land once belonged to a temple and is around 700 rai of land, on klong 5 in Pathumtani. On numerous occasions the rulings said the land must be returned to the temple. Nothing done and it had been going on for over 20 years.

[JanKlaasen]

Once they disposess all the Thai/Chinese of their assets

And why would they dispose Thai/Chines of their assets? They didn't steal the land neither did they get it for free.

[davejones]

According to a recent survey, 421 politicians own more than 27,000 rai, with some individuals owning over 2,000 rai.

Anyone surprised that there are no property taxes? I'm not sure what fairness has to do with land ownership, unless you're talking about rich people buying and holding land, preventing development. Property taxes would curtail that somewhat. I know that some villages give land for people to live on, they don't own it but they can build a home and have the uswe of it for life. As far as I know that doesn't happen in North America.

In North America people were given free land. Maybe you need a history lesson.

[davejones]

The Chinese are the late comers, yet they now own 90% of the land (my educated guess).

Thais can do 2 things:

- Give out more public forest land to the poor Thai farmers (like Robin Hood).

- Take back land from Chinese migrants and give it to the Thai natives (like in many African countries where white man land were confiscated).

What a xenophobic comment. Why should people that paid for land have it taken off them. Shall I come around to your house/condo and take you TV and give it to a poor person? Maybe I'll take all your possessions and give them away. I'm sure you won't have an objections.

Start stealing from foreigners and they country would soon fall apart. No foreigner would want to invest here or buy anything here and Thailand would be left on its own.

Edited August 28, 2012 by davejones

[belg]

why not do like in some african countries = take it away from the big land owners and give it to the local population...

what about us poor farang that cannot even own 1 rai of land to build our own house on...

[abhaya]

"In North America people were given free land. Maybe you need a history lesson" 40 acres and a mule? Where do I sign up? Thanks a bunch massah.

[noitom]

When a land squatting Thai farm family needs cash, the brother or sister who needs it the most starts dragging everyone in the family down to the Amphur (who the one needing the cash already knows). The Amphur sends a surveyor, a cartographer, and a geologist to assure that the land in question meets all the prerequisites and doesn't encroach on any Thai big cheese and then they send a marker to mark it off. Then they all march down to the Amphur to sign off and get a slice of the chanote. Then the initiating brother or sister needing the cash walks the chanotes in to the local credit union equivalent and gets a cash loan for five years backended with all the accrued interest.

Around year three the credit union sells off the paper to a network of "moneyhandlers" once they have assessed the loan as not collectible and the land not useful. The mystical chanote changes hands a few times for some skim and ends up in the fat fingers of a local big man who farms it out to two collectors. The collectors show up in the village one day around the beginning of year six and cause a lot of embarrassment if the loan is not paid off immediately.

The cycle then repeats itself with a slick brother, sister, cousin, son, daughter or neighbor who figures out how to con another family in to the same move or becoming a "partner" and sharing in the payback of when they'll sell the land for real money and everyone will party for three days and nights.

This is called Ponzai Somchai Chanote, the Thai version of the mortgage backed securities crisis in the US and the UK. Named in part for the first Thai and Japanese to shake hands and make a deal after the Japanese invasion at Prachuap Khiri Khan in WW II on December 8, 1941. This Thai instrument would be analogous to an Australian Chattel Mortgage, typically used to fund the purchase of cars, pickup trucks, and other miscellaneous "business equipment" that is "portable" like Thai land.

[how241]

"areas overlapping forest reserves" - what a cute little euphemism for encroachment.

Yes, interesting use of words. ha ha

[animatic]

Give them all 40 acres and a mule. ( only half joking)

[animatic]

When a land squatting Thai farm family needs cash, the brother or sister who needs it the most starts dragging everyone in the family down to the Amphur (who the one needing the cash already knows). The Amphur sends a surveyor, a cartographer, and a geologist to assure that the land in question meets all the prerequisites and doesn't encroach on any Thai big cheese and then they send a marker to mark it off. Then they all march down to the Amphur to sign off and get a slice of the chanote. Then the initiating brother or sister needing the cash walks the chanotes in to the local credit union equivalent and gets a cash loan for five years backended with all the accrued interest.

Around year three the credit union sells off the paper to a network of "moneyhandlers" once they have assessed the loan as not collectible and the land not useful. The mystical chanote changes hands a few times for some skim and ends up in the fat fingers of a local big man who farms it out to two collectors. The collectors show up in the village one day around the beginning of year six and cause a lot of embarrassment if the loan is not paid off immediately.

The cycle then repeats itself with a slick brother, sister, cousin, son, daughter or neighbor who figures out how to con another family in to the same move or becoming a "partner" and sharing in the payback of when they'll sell the land for real money and everyone will party for three days and nights.

This is called Ponzai Somchai Chanote, the Thai version of the mortgage backed securities crisis in the US and the UK. Named in part for the first Thai and Japanese to shake hands and make a deal after the Japanese invasion at Prachuap Khiri Khan in WW II on December 8, 1941. This Thai instrument would be analogous to an Australian Chattel Mortgage, typically used to fund the purchase of cars, pickup trucks, and other miscellaneous "business equipment" that is "portable" like Thai land.

And has served Thaksin's political machine very well in the north.

[billd766]

The Chinese are the late comers, yet they now own 90% of the land (my educated guess).

Thais can do 2 things:

- Give out more public forest land to the poor Thai farmers (like Robin Hood).

- Take back land from Chinese migrants and give it to the Thai natives (like in many African countries where white man land were confiscated).

Sunee TH you need to go back to school I think.

The land area of Thailand is Land area: 197,595 sq mi (511,771 sq km); total area: 198,455 sq mi (514,000 sq km)

So 90% of 511,771 is 460,594 Sq Km which doesn't somehow look correct to me.

[BirdsandBooze]

The Chinese are the late comers, yet they now own 90% of the land (my educated guess).

Thais can do 2 things:

- Give out more public forest land to the poor Thai farmers (like Robin Hood).

- Take back land from Chinese migrants and give it to the Thai natives (like in many African countries where white man land were confiscated).

What a xenophobic comment. Why should people that paid for land have it taken off them. Shall I come around to your house/condo and take you TV and give it to a poor person? Maybe I'll take all your possessions and give them away. I'm sure you won't have an objections.

Start stealing from foreigners and they country would soon fall apart. No foreigner would want to invest here or buy anything here and Thailand would be left on its own.

You took the bait

[ramrod711]

According to a recent survey, 421 politicians own more than 27,000 rai, with some individuals owning over 2,000 rai.

Anyone surprised that there are no property taxes? I'm not sure what fairness has to do with land ownership, unless you're talking about rich people buying and holding land, preventing development. Property taxes would curtail that somewhat. I know that some villages give land for people to live on, they don't own it but they can build a home and have the uswe of it for life. As far as I know that doesn't happen in North America.

In North America people were given free land. Maybe you need a history lesson.

Actually, I don't need a history lesson, I'm talking about TODAY,IN THE PRESENT, not 100 years ago when they were trying to get settlers to open up the west. Maybe you should take a lesson on how not to be a rude ba-tard.

[jonclark]

The Chinese are the late comers, yet they now own 90% of the land (my educated guess).

Thais can do 2 things:

- Give out more public forest land to the poor Thai farmers (like Robin Hood).

- Take back land from Chinese migrants and give it to the Thai natives (like in many African countries where white man land were confiscated).

SuneeT - And look what happened in Zimbabwe when the large white owned farmers were taken away and redistributed to the poor blacks. Two years latter the once 'breadbasket of Africa was and to a certain extent still is gripped by famine and poverty.

I think (despite your objections about pure blood) most of the Chinese migrants are now 100% Thai. Multiculturalism must be a horrible thing for people who still cling to the fascist 12 Cultural Mandates of Field Marshall Phibun. You have my sympathy and pity for having such a blinkered outlook on the world around you.

[KhaoNiaw]

From a few Isan villages I'm familiar with, it doesn't seem to be a problem with Chinese Thais. But the people take loans from the kamnan or phuyaibaan, or one of the other significant families in the village, their own people. When they can't repay the loans, they forfeit their land. I've seen one kamnan grow extremely wealthy over a period of 15 years or so.

[KireB]

Previous governments have promoted cheap credit to farmers, and so does the present one, and many farmers have lost their lands due to financial immaturity! Spending beyond means and live by the day, mai pen rai. I call it stupidity in most cased, but a lot of land is now consequently owned by the wealthier families. The societal clock is ticking.

[indyuk]

This is such a huge problem. Many attempts have been made to resolve the issue. The World Bank has been the most persistent advocate of Title Deeds for all land in Thailand in recent years. The last involvement of the World Bank was through the Tai Rak Thai government when the World Bank offered financial assistance for the purpose and measuring all land, marking it with numbed cylinders and the issuance of a Deed of each plot to the resident on the land. The World Bank have always insisted that poverty in Thailand could not be eradicated until land reform was complete.The project got underway but progress was intermittent and slow. So the Thai Army assigned troops to assist. Still things went slowly. Next an attempt was made to speed the process up with aerial surveys. This approach added confusion to the whole process. There were of course corrupt transfers of land to personnel assigned to the project creating even more uncertainty over newly issued land ownership documents. Then there is the question of Thai land which had been ethnically cleaned by the Army. Now occupied by Thai farmers who have waited long years for their Title Deed (Nor Sor Saam). What of this land? This along with several valid observations by other contributors hereto is but the tip of the iceberg of this vexing problem. Unfortunately, although not strictly relevant, there are many powerful people in Thailand that do not want this problem resolved.

Edited August 28, 2012 by indyuk

[Tokay]

People with money can afford to buy land. Poor people can not. Welcome to life. Try harder next time.

[hellodolly]

According to a recent survey, 421 politicians own more than 27,000 rai, with some individuals owning over 2,000 rai.

Anyone surprised that there are no property taxes? I'm not sure what fairness has to do with land ownership, unless you're talking about rich people buying and holding land, preventing development. Property taxes would curtail that somewhat. I know that some villages give land for people to live on, they don't own it but they can build a home and have the uswe of it for life. As far as I know that doesn't happen in North America.

Let's see now. They say

"421 politicians own more than 27,000 rai, with some individuals owning over 2,000 rai"

Now they say some of them own over 2,000 Rai themselves. Let us say it is just two who own that much. Just make it 2 own 4,000 Rai. That leaves 23,000 Rai owned by 419 individuals. Works out to about 55 Rai each. If it was three people owning 2,000 rai it would be 418 owning little over 50 Rai.

Some how I think there is some thing wrong with the figures. I don't have the figures but I would be willing to bet there is over 2,000,000 Rai that is farmable in Thailand.

Now as for property taxes that would generate lot of money for the government. It is a never ending list of abandoned buildings that the owners don't pay tax on so they just let them sit. I am all for it. It dosen't have to be high just a low tax figure.

[scotbeve]

What of the news about the Land Dept. coming around and dismantling resorts on public land?? Anyone? Or have we forgotten this... I do not recall any other administration doing this in my 32 years being here.

As for land deeds being finalized, there was a large push recently to verify and finalize all outstanding deed entitlements, the land dept. bureaucracy was streamlined, and indeed, deeds were finally given to the poor who had, for quite a long time, worked the land on the promissory deeds.

[hellodolly]

All good response posts. There are some v. basic things that legislators could enact, but they're afraid, and they're land hoarders themselves. Essentially, there are NO taxes for property outside of cities in Thailand. Many large tracts are owned by rich, and left to grow weeds. And yes, Chinese Thais are probably the worst culprits re; hoarding and doing-nothing with land.

It's a national disgrace, but neither this government nor Thai governments prior nor ensuing will lift a finger to do what's right. Thailand is very stratified: super rich and pampered at the top, masses of underlings at the bottom.

Unfortunately the place would collapse without the Chinese

No, not collapse. At first confusion, but then Thais would take over running companies, and Thailand would be more of a mish-mash like Cambodia. With Chinese owning everything, we get cold-hearted businesses. With Thais, it would be more humanistic/warmer, but more haphazard and excuse-ridden.

Well a lot of what you say may be true but if the undeveloped land was to turn into marketable product producing land what would it be. We all ready have more rice than we can sell. Flood the market with other products and the prices will just go down and the farmers remain poor. No better off than they are now.

I personally don't know of any country where they don't have a wide spread in the size of land ownership.