All Silent On 'insecticide' Causing Deaths Of Canadian Sisters: Phi Phi Island

[georgey]

There's a growing problem in the US with 'designer drugs' coming in from (mostly) india. They're packaged as 'bath salts' but cost much more than bath salts ordinarily cost. I mention this because it's possible one of the ingredients of those mixes, which change often, is deet. Deet trees grow in India.

there are specialist US FDA officials who spend all their working hours trying to decipher the ingredients for the latest drugs, in order to try and assist criminal prosecuters and cops detect it.

Thailand should have a task force which specifically targets such drug mixes as the 4 X 100 or whatever other names such mixes go by. When ordinarily healthy young women get sick and die (4 thus far, we've heard about) within hours, that's gravely serious. How many cases go unreported (sick people going to hospitals, or falling off a boat, or .....?) There are several unsolved cases in that region: A farang young man with green bluejeans was found floating in the sea near Phuket. A woman was found drowned off a beach in Krabi town, still had her gold necklace. A Belgian man died mysteriously in Phuket, ......the list goes on.

Deet grows on trees????

[JeremyBowskill]

There's a growing problem in the US with 'designer drugs' coming in from (mostly) india. They're packaged as 'bath salts' but cost much more than bath salts ordinarily cost. I mention this because it's possible one of the ingredients of those mixes, which change often, is deet. Deet trees grow in India.

there are specialist US FDA officials who spend all their working hours trying to decipher the ingredients for the latest drugs, in order to try and assist criminal prosecuters and cops detect it.

Thailand should have a task force which specifically targets such drug mixes as the 4 X 100 or whatever other names such mixes go by. When ordinarily healthy young women get sick and die (4 thus far, we've heard about) within hours, that's gravely serious. How many cases go unreported (sick people going to hospitals, or falling off a boat, or .....?) There are several unsolved cases in that region: A farang young man with green bluejeans was found floating in the sea near Phuket. A woman was found drowned off a beach in Krabi town, still had her gold necklace. A Belgian man died mysteriously in Phuket, ......the list goes on.

The designer drugs coming out of India and China are neither new or related to deet in any way they are simply chemicals that are not currently banned there for can slip through the customs and legality net, that or modified versions of stuff that is banned so as to also slip through in the same manor. Deet trees may grow in India and some of these chemicals come from India but that is the only link, its a bit like suggesting chilis grow in India so there is chili coming over in these designer bath salts. Its just a loophole that is being exploited and in no way relivant to this link.

p.s having just looked at wikipedia deet aint even a plant which makes yer post even futher from the truth.

Edited September 5, 2012 by JeremyBowskill

[ThaidDown]

There's a growing problem in the US with 'designer drugs' coming in from (mostly) india. They're packaged as 'bath salts' but cost much more than bath salts ordinarily cost. I mention this because it's possible one of the ingredients of those mixes, which change often, is deet. Deet trees grow in India.

there are specialist US FDA officials who spend all their working hours trying to decipher the ingredients for the latest drugs, in order to try and assist criminal prosecuters and cops detect it.

Thailand should have a task force which specifically targets such drug mixes as the 4 X 100 or whatever other names such mixes go by. When ordinarily healthy young women get sick and die (4 thus far, we've heard about) within hours, that's gravely serious. How many cases go unreported (sick people going to hospitals, or falling off a boat, or .....?) There are several unsolved cases in that region: A farang young man with green bluejeans was found floating in the sea near Phuket. A woman was found drowned off a beach in Krabi town, still had her gold necklace. A Belgian man died mysteriously in Phuket, ......the list goes on.

Deet grows on trees????

Yes, usually found next to a plantation of spaghetti trees

[dcutman]

There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

DEET is a neurotoxic substance. So what makes the difference.

This insect repellant is unfortunately not some harmless fragrant substance, but even risky when applied cortically.

I'd say the difference is about the same as between a rubber bullet and a copper jacketed one. At least from an insect's point of view. There is nothing wrong with accurate reporting, wouldn't you agree?

I cant tell by your post if you are agreeing with me or you are going for the annual most ridiculous TV post award.

Yes i would agree, and prefer accurate reporting, this report is not accurate at all when it says DEET is an insecticide.

Can DEET be used by pregnant women and nursing mothers?

The CDC and the U.S. EPA both suggest that there is no evidence of adverse effects for pregnant or nursing women. There's specific information at www.cdc.gov/westnile. We suggest you also review a recent journal article by Dr. Gideon Koren and colleagues. Our recommendation is for pregnant women to consult their personal physicians about the use of DEET-based products during pregnancy and breast feeding.

Is DEET an insecticide?

DEET is not an insecticide and neither kills nor harms the pests it repels. DEET interferes with the mosquito's ability to detect the carbon dioxide our bodies release.

[Soutpeel]

Wait weren't the police questioning some guy(s) from south america with the girls at the time?

No...not unless Portugal has detached itself from Spain and floated across the Atlantic

Further what exactly is military grade DEET ?

Go back to your fantansy land

[Soutpeel]

Jeez, you guys have obviously not been around much. Adding insecticide to give an extra "kick" to homemade alcohol is a rampant practice in Southeast Asia.

It's so bad in Cambodia (let's not even talk about India!!) that I refuse to drink the local hooch there. Dozens of people go blind and die in Cambodia each year.

It's a bit less of a problem in Thailand--as far as people going blind and dying--but the practice is still widespread. It is regularly added to yaa dong, sold on almost every soi in Bangkok. I learned the hard way about 8 years ago only to drink yaa dong at a vendor for which somebody can vouch for the purity of the product: once I inadvertently drank a few shots of yaa dong that was laced with insecticide...I spent the next day in bed with a pounding headache, and I luckily had someone to take care of me who knew the score. And I had no worse symptoms than that. From that time on I only drink yaa dong at vendors for whom friends attest to the quality of the product.

Anyway, insecticide in liquor is nothing new in Thailand. One should not be surprised that it got foisted on farang tourists, or that they died as a result. Sad, but not at all surprising.

Are you sure you are not referring to methanol contamination?

He doesnt know what he is referring to, but let not let the absence of fact to get in the way of a good story.....but you are correct its the home made alcohol that makes people go blind, not adding Deet/insectercide

[NomadJoe]

There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

DEET is a neurotoxic substance. So what makes the difference.

This insect repellant is unfortunately not some harmless fragrant substance, but even risky when applied cortically.

I'd say the difference is about the same as between a rubber bullet and a copper jacketed one. At least from an insect's point of view. There is nothing wrong with accurate reporting, wouldn't you agree?

I cant tell by your post if you are agreeing with me or you are going for the annual most ridiculous TV post award.

Yes i would agree, and prefer accurate reporting, this report is not accurate at all when it says DEET is an insecticide.

Can DEET be used by pregnant women and nursing mothers?

The CDC and the U.S. EPA both suggest that there is no evidence of adverse effects for pregnant or nursing women. There's specific information at www.cdc.gov/westnile. We suggest you also review a recent journal article by Dr. Gideon Koren and colleagues. Our recommendation is for pregnant women to consult their personal physicians about the use of DEET-based products during pregnancy and breast feeding.

Is DEET an insecticide?

DEET is not an insecticide and neither kills nor harms the pests it repels. DEET interferes with the mosquito's ability to detect the carbon dioxide our bodies release.

Not bad reporting, just ignorance on the part of the reader as usual. DEET is an insecticide/pesticide.

"DEET is one of the few pesticides applied directly to skin and clothing."

http://www.cdc.gov/n...ces/deetgen.pdf

http://www.pesticide...factsheets/deet

http://pmep.cce.corn...s/deet-ext.html

"Most insect repellants out there are loaded with toxic chemicals, including the pesticide DEET"

http://www.mercola.c...icides/deet.htm

"Among 64 pesticide products used during the Gulf War, the “pesticides of concern” identified by the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) include permethrin, a synthetic pyrethroid used to impregnate fabrics that persists through multiple launderings, as well as the insect repellent DEET.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dailynewsblog/?p=6010

"While the industry standard insect repellents rely on the insecticide DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide) to keep bugs at bay, many environmental and public health advocates worry that regular long-term exposure to even small amounts of the chemical can negatively affect the human nervous system."

http://www.keysnet.c...rnative-to.html

There are many many more sources confirming DEET is an insecticide/pesticide. Your one quote above.. "DEET is not an insecticide and neither kills nor harms the pests it repels." is from here: http://www.deetonline.org. Nowhere on that website does it explain who "deetonline.org" is, and their "About Us" link does not work. The website is very clearly a DEET promotional website.

Edited September 5, 2012 by NomadJoe

[sanuk21]

There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

DEET is a neurotoxic substance. So what makes the difference.

This insect repellant is unfortunately not some harmless fragrant substance, but even risky when applied cortically.

I agree with you, certainly would be risky if applied "cortically" ie to the brain.....not so risky if applied "corporally" ie to the body.

sanuk

[bigbamboo]

The Strange Deaths of Two Sisters in Thailand

Even Phuket Wan (which seems remarkably tough-minded for a publication focused on tourism) seems unconvinced by the mosquito repellent hypothesis, noting that it would be unusual for only two people to be poisoned by a shared bucket drink.

Could it be a cover up, the paper asked, for a heavy-handed use of insecticide in the sisters’ room? Insecticides have been suspected in some of the other deaths. Could it be that island authorities were trying to hide the existence of a killer who was deliberately spiking drinks? Or, slightly less creepily, that the women had been killed by excessive use of insecticides by hotel management and that authorities were moving to protect reputations? “All options remain open,” the paper warned, until the authorities produce evidence of a much more meticulous investigation.

http://www.wired.com...rs-in-thailand/

<< Link to Phuket Wan removed as per forum rule 31 >>

Interesting take on this subject.

Strikes me they are not alone in thinking this way.

[NomadJoe]

DEET is a neurotoxic substance. So what makes the difference.

This insect repellant is unfortunately not some harmless fragrant substance, but even risky when applied cortically.

I'd say the difference is about the same as between a rubber bullet and a copper jacketed one. At least from an insect's point of view. There is nothing wrong with accurate reporting, wouldn't you agree?

I cant tell by your post if you are agreeing with me or you are going for the annual most ridiculous TV post award.

Yes i would agree, and prefer accurate reporting, this report is not accurate at all when it says DEET is an insecticide.

Can DEET be used by pregnant women and nursing mothers?

The CDC and the U.S. EPA both suggest that there is no evidence of adverse effects for pregnant or nursing women. There's specific information at www.cdc.gov/westnile. We suggest you also review a recent journal article by Dr. Gideon Koren and colleagues. Our recommendation is for pregnant women to consult their personal physicians about the use of DEET-based products during pregnancy and breast feeding.

Is DEET an insecticide?

DEET is not an insecticide and neither kills nor harms the pests it repels. DEET interferes with the mosquito's ability to detect the carbon dioxide our bodies release.

Not bad reporting, just ignorance on the part of the reader as usual. DEET is an insecticide/pesticide.

"DEET is one of the few pesticides applied directly to skin and clothing."

http://www.cdc.gov/n...ces/deetgen.pdf

http://www.pesticide...factsheets/deet

http://pmep.cce.corn...s/deet-ext.html

"Most insect repellants out there are loaded with toxic chemicals, including the pesticide DEET"

http://www.mercola.c...icides/deet.htm

"Among 64 pesticide products used during the Gulf War, the “pesticides of concern” identified by the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) include permethrin, a synthetic pyrethroid used to impregnate fabrics that persists through multiple launderings, as well as the insect repellent DEET.

http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dailynewsblog/?p=6010

"While the industry standard insect repellents rely on the insecticide DEET (N,N-Diethyl-meta-toluamide) to keep bugs at bay, many environmental and public health advocates worry that regular long-term exposure to even small amounts of the chemical can negatively affect the human nervous system."

http://www.keysnet.c...rnative-to.html

There are many many more sources confirming DEET is an insecticide/pesticide. Your one quote above.. "DEET is not an insecticide and neither kills nor harms the pests it repels." is from here: http://www.deetonline.org. Nowhere on that website does it explain who "deetonline.org" is, and their "About Us" link does not work. The website is very clearly a DEET promotional website.

Ok, I was curious so I did a little more digging and found out that deetonline.org is by a company called the Consumer Specialty Product Association which turns out to be a product advocacy group for aerosol, pesticide, and chemical manufacturers. Basically it's a marketing company. Propaganda. www.scpa.org.

Edited September 5, 2012 by NomadJoe

[Maestro]

...please check out the earlier thread started a few days ago when the news was first broken about DEET being a factor in the girls' deaths... there is more than 300 replies to that initial thread. I live on phi phi and know of these cocktails... see my detailed replies in the other thread

I believe this is the earlier thread to which melcoe refers:

[Thai at Heart]

There's a growing problem in the US with 'designer drugs' coming in from (mostly) india. They're packaged as 'bath salts' but cost much more than bath salts ordinarily cost. I mention this because it's possible one of the ingredients of those mixes, which change often, is deet. Deet trees grow in India.

there are specialist US FDA officials who spend all their working hours trying to decipher the ingredients for the latest drugs, in order to try and assist criminal prosecuters and cops detect it.

Thailand should have a task force which specifically targets such drug mixes as the 4 X 100 or whatever other names such mixes go by. When ordinarily healthy young women get sick and die (4 thus far, we've heard about) within hours, that's gravely serious. How many cases go unreported (sick people going to hospitals, or falling off a boat, or .....?) There are several unsolved cases in that region: A farang young man with green bluejeans was found floating in the sea near Phuket. A woman was found drowned off a beach in Krabi town, still had her gold necklace. A Belgian man died mysteriously in Phuket, ......the list goes on.

Deet grows on trees????

I think this is being confused with Neem

https://www.google.com/search?q=neem+tree&aq=1&oq=neem+&sugexp=chrome,mod=3&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Lingba]

" The spokesperson at the forensic laboratory at Ramathibodi Hospital, which conducted the autopsies on the bodies of the two women, today confirmed that she had heard of the reports identifying DEET as the possible poison that killed the two women.

However, she declined to comment, citing a request from the Belanger family to not publicly reveal any details of the case".

More like a "request" from TAT.

More like an order from TAT

[jomtienbob]

I just went back to the previous thread on this and the only guy who saw through the haze was Faranguy. I think he is much closer to the truth than all you lot discussing Deet. Just let me re-post his original link and let you think. http://www.vice.com/...s-breath-1-of-2 Scopolamine is esaily confused for Deet and is lethal.

[Arkady]

It is not a case of whether the family requested confidentiality or not. If the hospital is aware that the girls consumed DEET, it is a matter for the police to investigate and arrest any poisoners they find to have been selling cocktails containing DEET. It is also in the public interest to warn people that poisoners are at work in tourist resorts and to avoid drinking suspicious concoctions. So the problem lies with the Thai police - surprise, surprise. As Thaksin said, "There is nothing under the sun that Thai police cannot do".

[BookMan]

There's a growing problem in the US with 'designer drugs' coming in from (mostly) india. They're packaged as 'bath salts' but cost much more than bath salts ordinarily cost. I mention this because it's possible one of the ingredients of those mixes, which change often, is deet. Deet trees grow in India.

there are specialist US FDA officials who spend all their working hours trying to decipher the ingredients for the latest drugs, in order to try and assist criminal prosecuters and cops detect it.

Thailand should have a task force which specifically targets such drug mixes as the 4 X 100 or whatever other names such mixes go by. When ordinarily healthy young women get sick and die (4 thus far, we've heard about) within hours, that's gravely serious. How many cases go unreported (sick people going to hospitals, or falling off a boat, or .....?) There are several unsolved cases in that region: A farang young man with green bluejeans was found floating in the sea near Phuket. A woman was found drowned off a beach in Krabi town, still had her gold necklace. A Belgian man died mysteriously in Phuket, ......the list goes on.

I don't think the authorities want to acknowledge there is any problem.

[ttelise]

The spokesman for the Thai forensic labs states that they were aware of the forensic report finding insecticide as cause if death, but they have been asked by the family not to report their findings.

What did they just do? Not report their findings.

[SgtPepper]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Deet kills insects, so that would make it an insecticide.

[BuckarooBanzai]

DEET does not actually kill insects, but repels them from treated areas.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/westnile/resources/deetgen.pdf

Enough of anything will kill just about anything but Deet is not an insecticide.

[Maestro]

The news reports talk about the inclusion of "cough syrup" in a drink as if all cough syrups sold in Thailand had identical formulas. I am pretty sure that a cough syrup containing codeine in meant in this context. So we are talking about a cocktail containing caffeine (in Coca Cola), codeine (in the cough syrup, and kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) leaves. No alcohol in the cocktail? Let's forget about DEET for the moment, as its inclusion in the drink is still speculative and, as another poster mentioned, scopolamine can give a false positive result for DEET, and the inclusion of DEET in a drink would seem to make no sense whatsoever.

Caffeine

This substance would have to be ingested in impractically high doses to arrive at the LD₅₀ of 150 to 200 mg/kg body weight, ie gallons of Coca Cola.

Codeine

A potentially serious adverse drug reaction, as with other opioids, is respiratory depression. This depression is dose-related and is the mechanism for the potentially fatal consequences of overdose.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) leaves

One study of Thai users reported that kratom has subtle calming effects in low doses, changing over to mild stimulation in higher doses...The feeling has been described as subtly active, while the mind is described as calm.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom No mention of lethal effect.

[jcw]

From the OP:

However, case investigator Lt Col Jongrak of Krabi City Police confirmed to the Gazette, “The case is not yet closed. We are continuing our investigation. I have been in touch with the Canadian embassy, and we have yet to question the doctor who performed the autopsies.

“We expect to conclude our investigation by the end of the month. At that time I will be able to reveal more details,” he said.

​Looks like the story is already made up.

Edited September 5, 2012 by jcw

[max108]

The fad of mixing coke, cough syrup , and kraton leaves is popular in the south of thailand as is called 4x100 (si koon loy). It has been reported on for a few years now. The addition of DEET to the mix is something I have never heard of. I can understand wanting to ingest coke, cough syrup, and kraton leaves for a high ( all 3 are used daily throughout the world for that) but who in their right mind would think to add DEET to the mix. DEET has no other use but to cause harm. It has never been used in any form to be consumed. I could see a cocktail being called "antifreeze" or "deet" but surely the consumer of these drinks doesn't think there is actual antifreeze or deet in their drinks. Who in their right mind would knowingly consume such poison? Who in their right mind would serve up such a drink?

I remember a long time ago there was a big scandal in Austria. They were adding Glycol ( andyfreece) to their wine to sweeten it.

[Soutpeel]

The news reports talk about the inclusion of "cough syrup" in a drink as if all cough syrups sold in Thailand had identical formulas. I am pretty sure that a cough syrup containing codeine in meant in this context. So we are talking about a cocktail containing caffeine (in Coca Cola), codeine (in the cough syrup, and kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) leaves. No alcohol in the cocktail? Let's forget about DEET for the moment, as its inclusion in the drink is still speculative and, as another poster mentioned, scopolamine can give a false positive result for DEET, and the inclusion of DEET in a drink would seem to make no sense whatsoever.

Caffeine

This substance would have to be ingested in impractically high doses to arrive at the LD₅₀ of 150 to 200 mg/kg body weight, ie gallons of Coca Cola.

Codeine

A potentially serious adverse drug reaction, as with other opioids, is respiratory depression. This depression is dose-related and is the mechanism for the potentially fatal consequences of overdose.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine

Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa) leaves

One study of Thai users reported that kratom has subtle calming effects in low doses, changing over to mild stimulation in higher doses...The feeling has been described as subtly active, while the mind is described as calm.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom No mention of lethal effect.

Codeine is a scheduled/restricted drug in Thailand under opiates and very very unlikely to be found in cough syrup here, codeine cough syrup in other countries certainly availible, my home country you can buy codiene based cough syrup and codeine/parachetamol in tablet form

[Maestro]

Wait weren't the police questioning some guy(s) from south america with the girls at the time?

No...not unless Portugal has detached itself from Spain and floated across the Atlantic...

Portugal did not detach itself from the Iberian peninsula, but some time in the past Portugal colonised what today is know as the country Brazil and as a result a version of Portuguese is spoken in Brazil and Portuguese is Brazil's official language.

First news reports identified the two men seen in the company of the two Canadian women as Portuguese, but later reports indicated that they were Brazilian.

[dcutman]

When did insecticide come into this story? There was no mention of insecticide before, only DEET a insect repellant.

I will assume another poor reporting job.

Deet kills insects, so that would make it an insecticide.

Holly sh!t! there are more of you.

So sorry but deet is a insect repellant, not a bug killer. Before you look stupid like NomadJoe please do some reading. Oh to late.

[Bluespunk]

Why haven't the police talked to the doctors who carried out the autopsy. Surely that should be a priority in a case like this.

[BookMan]

Why haven't the police talked to the doctors who carried out the autopsy. Surely that should be a priority in a case like this.

You would think they would be the first to get the final autopsy report. Or maybe I just watch too many police dramas.

[Bluespunk]

Why haven't the police talked to the doctors who carried out the autopsy. Surely that should be a priority in a case like this.

You would think they would be the first to get the final autopsy report. Or maybe I just watch too many police dramas.

+1

[Puccini]

There's a growing problem in the US with 'designer drugs' coming in from (mostly) india. They're packaged as 'bath salts' but cost much more than bath salts ordinarily cost. I mention this because it's possible one of the ingredients of those mixes, which change often, is deet. Deet trees grow in India.

there are specialist US FDA officials who spend all their working hours trying to decipher the ingredients for the latest drugs, in order to try and assist criminal prosecuters and cops detect it.

Thailand should have a task force which specifically targets such drug mixes as the 4 X 100 or whatever other names such mixes go by. When ordinarily healthy young women get sick and die (4 thus far, we've heard about) within hours, that's gravely serious. How many cases go unreported (sick people going to hospitals, or falling off a boat, or .....?) There are several unsolved cases in that region: A farang young man with green bluejeans was found floating in the sea near Phuket. A woman was found drowned off a beach in Krabi town, still had her gold necklace. A Belgian man died mysteriously in Phuket, ......the list goes on.

Deet grows on trees????

The following quote is from a blog entry to which a link was given in this post in another topic:

The most recent case has been that of the Canadian sisters, Audrey and Noemi Belanger, who died of suspected poisoning in June 2012 on Thailand’s Phi Phi Island. The autopsy is reported to have found large amount of DEET had been ingested. Likely compounding after several cocktails of 1-2-call containing DEET. Today the Canadian Government updated their travel advisory for Thailand saying, “Some media reports indicate that there have been recent cases of poisoning allegedly linked to the consumption of a Thai beverage containing DEET.” The tree is commonly seen in Thailand, only recently did they cut down a 10-year-old tree next to the provincial governments headquarters.

Anybody without prior knowledge of DEET reading the above can be forgiven for arriving at the conclusion that DEET grows on trees. (India was mentioned in another post in a different context)

[gaucho]

its looking more like a date rape to me or at least a lowering of resistance attempt .....this adding of chemicals to drinks is a growing fad in asia i recall in india about 30 years ago over 1000 people going blind because too much of something was added to a local made hooch ....same thing used to happen in prohibition in the usa ..the most strident voices for lifting prohibition were doctors ...they wanted some standard in the quality of the grog