Us Ambassador Chris Stevens Killed In Libya

[folium]

Excellent piece in today's Economist re this issue. Worth a read.

http://www.economist.com/node/21562914

[Jayman]

Also looks like he violated his parole making and posting the film.

Nakoula, who talked guardedly with AP about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and was ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.

I find that extraordinary. How can a court enforce and order that? I bet in Europe that would go right to the top of the Human Rights Court . Well I guess his goose is cooked. he may well get away with the movie because of the 1st Ammendment, but for breaking his parole conditions he could go down for a very long time!

That is quite common for folks convicted of crimes that involved the internet and computers. Do you have a problem with someone that commits a violent crime with a handgun being told as part of their parole they cannot own a handgun? Yes, that was an extreme example. Maybe I could have used an example with a sex offender and what they must agree to to be released on parole.

Mind you, he didn't have to agree and get paroled. He could of instead spent those 5 years in prison.

also.. now Embassy walls have been breached in Tunis and Khartoum.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Jayman

[GentlemanJim]

Intrigued about two things; 1. Use of the term "American Israeli". I presume you mean Americans who happen to be of Jewish descent. Correct? 2. You claim "American-Israeli" ownership of US media companies. Most are publicly quoted companies, so could you give me a breakdown of their shareholders to support your claim? BTW to save you some time & effort the Murdochs are many things but I don't believe being Jewish is one of them!

No need to be intrigued. The term American Israeli is not a denominator I have made up from thin air, it is a common term and reference will be seen to it all over the internet. It is a term that some members on TV use to describe themselves. It is not difficult really. As for your next item, number 2 that's a little silly isn't it. I could say one of the biggest computer companies in the world is owned by Bill Gates. I think you would fully understand the meaning. Would you require names and addresses of half a billion shareholders as evidence to support the claim. My very simple statement (before it was turned out of all proportion ) stands. The majority of the worlds media giants are owned by Israeli or American Israeli people. If you are unable to grasp or google that for your self then when I have time over coffee I will make a list..OK!

running Hollywood is hardly the same as controlling the world's media.

The idea is that you read the full articles or content of links, not make a judgement on the limited amount of text we are permitted to quote on this forum.

Nice try but wrong.

http://en.wikipedia....sraeli_American

US Census 2000 lists 106,000 Americans of Israeli descent and the most prominent is Natalie Portman the actress. No mention of "owners" of US media companies.

Either you have little understanding of the concept of shareholder ownbership of public companies or are on some Protocols of the Elders of Zion agenda.

Quoting Bill Gates as a company owner is unfortunate considering he owns less than 9% of the available equity of Microsoft.

Please name me a single US media company of any material size that is owned (that's 50% of shares plus 1, or via ownership of a special class of shares with enhanced voting rights) by one of these 106,000 Americans of Israeli descent or even by an American who also happens to be Jewish.

And if they did, why is that of any interest or relevance...?

Well your last line negates completely your own questions and my interest in answering them.

[GentlemanJim]

Also looks like he violated his parole making and posting the film.

Nakoula, who talked guardedly with AP about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and was ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.

I find that extraordinary. How can a court enforce and order that? I bet in Europe that would go right to the top of the Human Rights Court . Well I guess his goose is cooked. he may well get away with the movie because of the 1st Ammendment, but for breaking his parole conditions he could go down for a very long time!

That is quite common for folks convicted of crimes that involved the internet and computers. Do you have a problem with someone that commits a violent crime with a handgun being told as part of their parole they cannot own a handgun? Yes, that was an extreme example. Maybe I could have used an example with a sex offender and what they must agree to to be released on parole.

Mind you, he didn't have to agree and get paroled. He could of instead spent those 5 years in prison.

also.. now Embassy walls have been breached in Tunis and Khartoum.

Well, I am not familiar with people involved in computer crimes, hence my statement, how extraordinary! I hope he does go back to prison.

Re your last line, as I said last night almost 24 hours ago, I was afraid of this very thing. I think it will be a long night in the Middle Eastern and Islamic Asian countries!

[folium]

Nice try but wrong.

http://en.wikipedia....sraeli_American

US Census 2000 lists 106,000 Americans of Israeli descent and the most prominent is Natalie Portman the actress. No mention of "owners" of US media companies.

Either you have little understanding of the concept of shareholder ownbership of public companies or are on some Protocols of the Elders of Zion agenda.

Quoting Bill Gates as a company owner is unfortunate considering he owns less than 9% of the available equity of Microsoft.

Please name me a single US media company of any material size that is owned (that's 50% of shares plus 1, or via ownership of a special class of shares with enhanced voting rights) by one of these 106,000 Americans of Israeli descent or even by an American who also happens to be Jewish.

And if they did, why is that of any interest or relevance...?

Well your last line negates completely your own questions and my interest in answering them.

So I will take that as a response which tells me that there are no US media companies owned by Americans who happen to be of Israeli descent or who happen to be Jewish. Thanks for clearing that up.

Perhaps Gene Simmons of Kiss (as a prominent Israeli American) is one of your mysterious media owners!

[GentlemanJim]

Nice try but wrong.

http://en.wikipedia....sraeli_American

US Census 2000 lists 106,000 Americans of Israeli descent and the most prominent is Natalie Portman the actress. No mention of "owners" of US media companies.

Either you have little understanding of the concept of shareholder ownbership of public companies or are on some Protocols of the Elders of Zion agenda.

Quoting Bill Gates as a company owner is unfortunate considering he owns less than 9% of the available equity of Microsoft.

Please name me a single US media company of any material size that is owned (that's 50% of shares plus 1, or via ownership of a special class of shares with enhanced voting rights) by one of these 106,000 Americans of Israeli descent or even by an American who also happens to be Jewish.

And if they did, why is that of any interest or relevance...?

Well your last line negates completely your own questions and my interest in answering them.

So I will take that as a response which tells me that there are no US media companies owned by Americans who happen to be of Israeli descent or who happen to be Jewish. Thanks for clearing that up.

Perhaps Gene Simmons of Kiss (as a prominent Israeli American) is one of your mysterious media owners!

Follum

If you want to take my post as meaning there are no US media companies owned by Americans who happen to be of Israeli descent or who happen to be Jewish then go ahead. I wish you the most pleasant weekend possible with you and your family.

[JemJem]

You think Libya will hand over the caught attackers to the US ?

This was an attack on US soil, so I guess they should. But, will they ? We'll see.

[sauvagecheri]

Also looks like he violated his parole making and posting the film.

Nakoula, who talked guardedly with AP about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and was ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer.

I find that extraordinary. How can a court enforce and order that? I bet in Europe that would go right to the top of the Human Rights Court . Well I guess his goose is cooked. he may well get away with the movie because of the 1st Ammendment, but for breaking his parole conditions he could go down for a very long time!

That is quite common for folks convicted of crimes that involved the internet and computers. Do you have a problem with someone that commits a violent crime with a handgun being told as part of their parole they cannot own a handgun? Yes, that was an extreme example. Maybe I could have used an example with a sex offender and what they must agree to to be released on parole.

Mind you, he didn't have to agree and get paroled. He could of instead spent those 5 years in prison.

also.. now Embassy walls have been breached in Tunis and Khartoum.

I don't know what that man "Nakula ,aka Sam Bacile has done in the past ,I cannot judge him since I (We) do not know the real facts and it is irrelevant to this particular movie and story,

Frankly ,I think he is a hero for standing for what he believes in and producing that movie ,as bad as it is,at least someone dares to shed light on Islam and its spooks and makes an attempt to tell the truth as he sees it (And I am afraid as it is ) irrespectful of the sacro saint political correctness 'party line',it is crucial that the general public begins to understand what Islam is about even if it offends some people's sensibilities,

Wether we admit it or not Islam has been at war with the West for quite some time,(say struggle) if you prefer and there is a huge fight coming in the years ahead, it is obvious those people are not going to back down and are spoiling for a confrontation with the aim to impose world wide sharia,either we will submit or we will have to respond to attempt to preserve our values ..

The movie has nothing to do with the riots and the assaults on the embassies,our opponents are only using it as a pretext and a rallying cry to create their usual mischief ,and instill fear and terror (Succesfully)in peaceful people and prevent the truth to come out ,we are pussyfooting about the truth ,trying to appease cuddle and trying not to offend anyone ,when others have no qualms in blatantly offending us whenever they can.

It is very sad that those Americans were assassinated , in war people die ,that's a fact ,see Iraq ,Afghanistan !

One of the difference between them and us ,they are not afraid to die and fight ,they welcome it,we have been raised all our lives with christian values ,love your brother,respect life,non violence etc etc ...

They have been raised in the culture and the belief that kaffirs, jews and non muslims are less than human ,and undeserving of life,it is no wonder that we see those behaviours,and this is just the begining !

Edited September 14, 2012 by sauvagecheri

[JemJem]

Amazing and annoying double-standards by some posters here. They care about the freedom of expression of the producer/director of this movie ; yet they didn't give a dam_n about Assange's !

[Jayman]

Check this out

http://goo.gl/maps/JGgq1

protests around the world due to this video

[cdnvic]

Amazing and annoying double-standards by some posters here. They care about the freedom of expression of the producer/director of this movie ; yet they didn't give a dam_n about Assange's !

The first one made a bad movie, the latter actually broke the law. I think you are being a bit harsh.

[manarak]

In this thread, Rijb is spot on.

The video is an excuse.

The video was shown in June and trailers posted on Youtube in July.

And it magically leads on September 11 to attacks on a US ambassador coincidentially travelling without his usual security detail?

coincidences of course.

And who believes the islamic countries can be governed democratically is mistaken.

One has either to somehow control or oppress the religious leaders to govern such countries.

[Scott]

Off topic posts have been deleted.

[JurgenG]

I read the Chinese press on a regular basis. It's interesting. One of their main argument against a military action in Syria is that it won't solve any problem, just see what's going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lybia. I guess they have a point.

Edited September 15, 2012 by JurgenG

[simple1]

In a perfect world this Arab spring would have produced democracy.But it was co-opted by radicals.

Things sometimes play out exactly as expected. Not to be confused with exactly as reported or portrayed.

It is not unheard of for one country or group to create instability in another through various combat,financial or political means.

Later to be reshaped in the configuration deemed useful by those who started the destabilization.

If through a miscalculation things do not go as planned more destabilization will occur until

the country fits the desired mould of control.

After all when you say "co-opted by radicals" you have to ask yourself, when do radical rebels have time

during a rebellion to set up a central bank as they did in Libya?

No small feat even in a normal, stable,peaceful country. Yet they did it at that point in time in Libya?

They must have been very organized,directed with very powerful handlers.

What other explanation can be offered?

, I agree. Now I would like to ask you who these powerful handlers were that directed and organized this.

The "rebels" did not set up a Central Bank it was already in existence, but assets of the Central Bank were frozen by international sanctions. When the rebels came to power the assets were "unlocked" for access by the new regeime - US government assisted with the transition.

[simple1]

And now this report of UK and German embassies being assaulted in Sudan. Non implicated parties.

The German Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan was on fire Friday after protests against the online anti-Islam video, a journalist on the scene, Isma'il Kamal Kushkush, said. No embassy personnel were believed to be inside.The UK Foreign Office also says protesters were demonstrating Friday outside its embassy, next to the German Embassy, in Khartoum.

A religious "leader" made mention in Friday prayers that anti Islamic graffiti had been uncovered in Germany and therefore incited people to attack the German embassy. UK is aligned to US so it's not "Non implicated". Doesn't make the attacks right, but that's the thinking

[geriatrickid]

Just shows that working for obama can get you killed.

Your statement is nonsensical. Ambassador Stevens was an employee of the United States government. He joined the foreign service in 1991. By your logic, this would have made him an employee of former President Bush, the elder. He was then appointed to Deputy Chief of Mission in Libya in 2007 by former President Bush, the younger. By your logic, this would have made him an employee of former President Bush. Where does your silliness end? The Ambassador asked for the posting and he had the final say in his own personal security decisions. He was briefed everyday on security threats. I do not blame the man for his dedication and sense of duty to representing the USA. Rather I respect him for it. Your petty comment is disrespectful and uncalled for.

[simple1]

In this thread, Rijb is spot on.

The video is an excuse.

The video was shown in June and trailers posted on Youtube in July.

And it magically leads on September 11 to attacks on a US ambassador coincidentially travelling without his usual security detail?

coincidences of course.

And who believes the islamic countries can be governed democratically is mistaken.

One has either to somehow control or oppress the religious leaders to govern such countries.

As you well know the concept of democracy is rejected by Islam, as their is no separation of State from religion. it's about time that Western government policy makers stop BS their constituents. As you said, what is needed is to identify and work with the more liberal elements and assist them in suppressing or educating Islamic extremists (wishful thinking).

Edited September 15, 2012 by simple1

[geriatrickid]

And now this report of UK and German embassies being assaulted in Sudan. Non implicated parties.

The German Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan was on fire Friday after protests against the online anti-Islam video, a journalist on the scene, Isma'il Kamal Kushkush, said. No embassy personnel were believed to be inside.The UK Foreign Office also says protesters were demonstrating Friday outside its embassy, next to the German Embassy, in Khartoum.

A religious "leader" made mention in Friday prayers that anti Islamic graffiti had been uncovered in Germany and therefore incited people to attack the German embassy. UK is aligned to US so it's not "Non implicated". Doesn't make the attacks right, but that's the thinking

Ummm. so some mullah says that the scribblings of someone in Germany are grounds to assault the Germany embassy and set fire to it?

Ok, so the UK is aligned with the USA. What does that make Denmark, or Canada, or Poland, or Thailand for that matter?

I'm certainly not shooting the messenger here, but attacking the German embassy?????

[simple1]

And now this report of UK and German embassies being assaulted in Sudan. Non implicated parties.

The German Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan was on fire Friday after protests against the online anti-Islam video, a journalist on the scene, Isma'il Kamal Kushkush, said. No embassy personnel were believed to be inside.The UK Foreign Office also says protesters were demonstrating Friday outside its embassy, next to the German Embassy, in Khartoum.

A religious "leader" made mention in Friday prayers that anti Islamic graffiti had been uncovered in Germany and therefore incited people to attack the German embassy. UK is aligned to US so it's not "Non implicated". Doesn't make the attacks right, but that's the thinking

Ummm. so some mullah says that the scribblings of someone in Germany are grounds to assault the Germany embassy and set fire to it?

Ok, so the UK is aligned with the USA. What does that make Denmark, or Canada, or Poland, or Thailand for that matter?

I'm certainly not shooting the messenger here, but attacking the German embassy?????

Yes I agree crazy stuff, lets hope they don't attack the other embassies. Don't know if you have seen in today's media the Thai government condolences to the US administration and condemnation for the killings in Libya, went on to say that defamation of any religion is incorrect and all faiths should be respected.

Edited September 15, 2012 by simple1

[mania]

The "rebels" did not set up a Central Bank it was already in existence, but assets of the Central Bank were frozen by international sanctions. When the rebels came to power the assets were "unlocked" for access by the new regeime - US government assisted with the transition.

Sorry if I got that wrong

It had been awhile since I read the news.

I guess I should have said they set up a oil company but it was at the start

of the overthrow wasn't it? March 19th 2011

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-21/libyan-rebel-council-sets-up-oil-company-to-replace-qaddafi-s.html

Back to this film as a cause for current events.

One possibility that has not been mentioned is that the film is just the proverbial straw that

broke that camels back.

[GentlemanJim]

And now this report of UK and German embassies being assaulted in Sudan. Non implicated parties.

The German Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan was on fire Friday after protests against the online anti-Islam video, a journalist on the scene, Isma'il Kamal Kushkush, said. No embassy personnel were believed to be inside.The UK Foreign Office also says protesters were demonstrating Friday outside its embassy, next to the German Embassy, in Khartoum.

A religious "leader" made mention in Friday prayers that anti Islamic graffiti had been uncovered in Germany and therefore incited people to attack the German embassy. UK is aligned to US so it's not "Non implicated". Doesn't make the attacks right, but that's the thinking

Ummm. so some mullah says that the scribblings of someone in Germany are grounds to assault the Germany embassy and set fire to it?

Ok, so the UK is aligned with the USA. What does that make Denmark, or Canada, or Poland, or Thailand for that matter?

I'm certainly not shooting the messenger here, but attacking the German embassy?????

The problem is that we are dealing with a 'machine' that must resemble what was going on in Europe in the dark ages. We have the mullahs who are preaching to groups that are no where near the top of the tree when it comes to education, in fact the less they are educated the better for the mullahs. The mullahs can tell these illiterates ANYTHING, and they will be believed. They can justify any course of action as the will of God or Mohammed and the baying crowd will oblige. Because of events of the last 72 hours there is a real opportunity for Governments world-wide to take action on this. I still believe it is a mistake to incite people of any particular religious sensitivity towards violence, but it is time our Governments established a firm no BS policy.

Governments must re affirm the right of everybody to pratice their own religion, but those religions are not permitted to interfere with Government. Absolutely no rights for religious protests and religious pressure groups. No tolerance of any system that wants a religious code of law. The French were getting the right idea and the only country showing any kuhoonas when they banned the veil. If you wish to wear a veil at home, feel free. Wearing it in public in places where security is an issue and must be correctly maintained...no chance. If you don't like it, move to a country that does.

If people want to belong to the churches of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, scientology or the universal church of the jedi then go ahead, but keep it private in your own place of worship. No public religious demonstrations, placards or general interference in state affairs. If you want to be a religious leader OK but you can't go into politics, and the minute a President/Prime Minister says God is on our side etc etc then impeach them. We must adopt a zero tolerance towards pandering to religious whims. If you want to fast during Ramadan then fine, but do not expect any limitations to be imposed on anyone else in the office in order they do not upset your sensitivities. Now is the perfect time for some zero BS leadership to step up to the plate and to firmly separate once and for all state and religion before this cancererous type of social behaviour that we are witnessing takes over the world, and given free reign it will. If any country cannot control it's citizens from rioting at the gates of our embassies over religious clap-trap then close those embassies and the missions and withdraw from the country terminating all business transactions and foreign aid. They are clearly in the middle ages and we really don't need them, we will get by, and when they realise that their entire development will cease then maybe they will start behaving with a Global social responsibility. The ball is rolling, we should not let these folks in Libya die in vain. Now if someone has a very large ladder I need some help getting off this soap box.

Edited September 15, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[Credo]

The events that are occurring are happening in foreign countries. Western governments need exercise great care in anything they do outside the embassy walls. The protection of diplomatic missions is largely a responsibility of the host country.

[Ulysses G.]

Back to this film as a cause for current events.

One possibility that has not been mentioned is that the film is just the proverbial straw that

broke that camels back.

The film is nothing but a pretext. A modern Kristallnacht.

[mania]

Back to this film as a cause for current events.

One possibility that has not been mentioned is that the film is just the proverbial straw that

broke that camels back.

The film is nothing but a pretext. A modern Kristallnacht.

I agree in a way but, Kristallnacht was against a people that lived

in those areas. This looks more like an expelling of a foreign government presence.

I guess they as a country are allowed to do so. Of course it should have been done by diplomatic

actions, declarations.

But they also cannot have it both ways. If they want foreign governments off

their soil then they also should not receive foreign aide from those they expel.

[Rooo]

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, but I have been sent these two news links.

I have attached the links, interesting reading. If they have already been posted my apologies.

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2012/09/the-911-attacks-on-the-us-emba.php

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html

[mania]

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, but I have been sent these two news links.

I have attached the links, interesting reading. If they have already been posted my apologies.

http://www.carolineg...the-us-emba.php

http://www.independe...on-8135797.html

Thanks Roo

Yes that first link is what prompted my post about it

being more of a last straw reaction if even that.

Edited September 15, 2012 by mania

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted. The thread is not about Obama or Romney. It is about the former US ambassador and the situation in the middle East.

Ambassador Stevens was a 21-year veteran of the Foreign Service and served in numerous postings in the Middle East. He also spoke Arabic.

[Ulysses G.]

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, but I have been sent these two news links.

I have attached the links, interesting reading. If they have already been posted my apologies.

http://www.carolineg...the-us-emba.php

http://www.independe...on-8135797.html

Interesting indeed:

The attack in Libya was well planned and executed. It wasn't about a spontaneous protest against some ridiculous internet movie of Muhammad. The assailants came armed to the teeth, with among other things, RPG 7s. They knew that the US Ambassador was in Benghazi rather than Tripoli. They knew how to track his movements, and were able to strike against him after he and his colleagues left the consulate building and tried to flee in a car. As Israel Channel 2's Arab Affairs Correspondent Ehud Yaari noted this evening, you don't often see well trained terrorists participating in protests of movies. http://www.carolineg...the-us-emba.php

[sauvagecheri]

Back to this film as a cause for current events.

One possibility that has not been mentioned is that the film is just the proverbial straw that

broke that camels back.

The film is nothing but a pretext. A modern Kristallnacht.

I agree in a way but, Kristallnacht was against a people that lived

in those areas. This looks more like an expelling of a foreign government presence.

I guess they as a country are allowed to do so. Of course it should have been done by diplomatic

actions, declarations.

But they also cannot have it both ways. If they want foreign governments off

their soil then they also should not receive foreign aide from those they expel.

Exactly .Foreign aid !

What a joke ,we are already broke !.What business do we have handing out 1.8 billions of tax payer money for the Egyptian Muslim Brothers ,really ! ,who's zooming who ?

And immigration must stop immediately before they bring this scourge in our shores if they have not already done so .

It could happen here !

To quote Winston Churchill "It is not too late ,but it is is time "