Unclaimed Thai Bank Accounts Of Deceased Expats

[NancyL]

What happens if an expat with a Thai bank account dies and no one else knows his banking details?

Specifically, I'm thinking of resident expats who may have large accounts, like their 800,000 baht retirement-visa account with well-known Thai banks, like SCB or Bangkok Bank. What happens if they die under circumstances where there are delays in notifying the next-of-kin or somehow their documents, records, bankbooks are not available to whomever is trying to sort out the details after their death.

Presumably those funds will remain in the Thai bank. What happens when it's evident the account is dormant? Who gets the money? When?

Edited September 15, 2012 by NancyL

[Soutpeel]

Thinking a of bumping a few of them off Nancy ?....

[JohnC]

The bank deduct a monthly fee for non active accounts, eventually the account will be empty! Not an unusual situation actually as I have known people go home and unfortunately die, no will and no contacts in Thailand. I had a friend who owns a condo here, went home, big earthquake, never heard from him or family again. Currently occupied by a Thai girl and would guess she will stay forever!

[Soutpeel]

"Presumably those funds will remain in the Thai bank. What happens when it's evident the account is dormant? Who gets the money? When?"

I have had a dormant account for 8 years and I still keep getting letters telling me I have THB 28.0 in my account...so based on this ones assumes the account just stays dormant until some goes to the branch and closes it

Edited September 15, 2012 by Soutpeel

[lopburi3]

Believe they were given the option to invoke a service charge when balance got down to a very low level but not sure many actually do - they will ask depositors not to close account and just leave a few baht in it (so they can easily use again later) - suspect active account is a plus mark for the branch holding.

[jbaldwin]

Inactivity fees generally only apply to savings accounts it they have a balance of less than 5,000 baht.

I beleive the bank account always remain the property of the account holder or heirs. Nobody get the money and a claim can be made at any time in the future.

This also used to be the case in the UK until the law was changed in 2008. Now money in an account that had been dormant for 15 years can be seized by the state.

[davejones]

This is a situation that can arise in any country. In the UK there are billions of GBP in dormant accounts. Big life assurance companies like Prudential also have billions in unclaimed money. Even if people are alive, they move and forget about accounts, some with huge amounts of money in them. I know that in the case of the pru they have to try to find the people and do a pretty good job.

With bank, I'm pretty sure that the bank would get to keep the money. Even if the close the accounts they will have to keep records and pay out the money if it's eventually claimed. But most never is.

If I died, nobody would know about some of my investments.

[NancyL]

This is a situation that can arise in any country. In the UK there are billions of GBP in dormant accounts. Big life assurance companies like Prudential also have billions in unclaimed money. Even if people are alive, they move and forget about accounts, some with huge amounts of money in them. I know that in the case of the pru they have to try to find the people and do a pretty good job.

With bank, I'm pretty sure that the bank would get to keep the money. Even if the close the accounts they will have to keep records and pay out the money if it's eventually claimed. But most never is.

If I died, nobody would know about some of my investments.

What if you became unable to handle your finances, yet still required the use of these investments? For example, dementia, dying of cancer, severe Parkinson's, etc? With my work with Lanna Care Net, I've assisted people with dementia who insist they have investments someplace, yet no paperwork can be found and they would really have a much better life if the funds they claim they have were currently available to them.

And, I've seen some of these same people die and wondered who eventually gets these funds if no one knows they exist.

Edited September 15, 2012 by NancyL

[mania]

The bank deduct a monthly fee for non active accounts, eventually the account will be empty! Not an unusual situation actually as I have known people go home and unfortunately die, no will and no contacts in Thailand. I had a friend who owns a condo here, went home, big earthquake, never heard from him or family again. Currently occupied by a Thai girl and would guess she will stay forever!

I would imagine with the account size Nancy is referring to (800K visa account )

It would never draw down. The interest on that amount will always exceed any dormant fees if any on

that amount.

Interesting question by Nancy though.

[davejones]

This is a situation that can arise in any country. In the UK there are billions of GBP in dormant accounts. Big life assurance companies like Prudential also have billions in unclaimed money. Even if people are alive, they move and forget about accounts, some with huge amounts of money in them. I know that in the case of the pru they have to try to find the people and do a pretty good job.

With bank, I'm pretty sure that the bank would get to keep the money. Even if the close the accounts they will have to keep records and pay out the money if it's eventually claimed. But most never is.

If I died, nobody would know about some of my investments.

What if you became unable to handle your finances, yet still required the use of these investments? For example, dementia, dying of cancer, severe Parkinson's, etc? With my work with Lanna Care Net, I've assisted people with dementia who insist they have investments someplace, yet no paperwork can be found and they would really have a much better life if the funds they claim they have were currently available to them.

And, I've seen some of these same people die and wondered who eventually gets these funds if no one knows they exist.

In the UK a court can appoint someone to take charge of the accounts if the account holder isn't able to, so I guess similar arrangements are possible in most countries. In the UK you could check with each individual bank to see if they have any accounts in that name, so probably possible here as well. Very time-consuming, but possible. When people have dementia though they could be remembering accounts that have been closed down a long time ago.

[topt]

This is a situation that can arise in any country. In the UK there are billions of GBP in dormant accounts. Big life assurance companies like Prudential also have billions in unclaimed money. Even if people are alive, they move and forget about accounts, some with huge amounts of money in them. I know that in the case of the pru they have to try to find the people and do a pretty good job.

With bank, I'm pretty sure that the bank would get to keep the money. Even if the close the accounts they will have to keep records and pay out the money if it's eventually claimed. But most never is.

If I died, nobody would know about some of my investments.

What if you became unable to handle your finances, yet still required the use of these investments? For example, dementia, dying of cancer, severe Parkinson's, etc? With my work with Lanna Care Net, I've assisted people with dementia who insist they have investments someplace, yet no paperwork can be found and they would really have a much better life if the funds they claim they have were currently available to them.

And, I've seen some of these same people die and wondered who eventually gets these funds if no one knows they exist.

I think it is all down to if the person concerned wants to make sure any assets are passed on. I used to poo poo the idea of a will because I was younger and not bothered to leave anything to anybody. Now I have a will and also have set out where any assets can be found in an encrypted file. This is with my youngest brother but he cannot access it without a password which is held by someone else only to be given up in the event of my death.

This does not help with your first point unless you also make a Living Will which requires more trust.

But yes I struggled intitally with how people would track down my assets.

[davejones]

I think it is all down to if the person concerned wants to make sure any assets are passed on. I used to poo poo the idea of a will because I was younger and not bothered to leave anything to anybody. Now I have a will and also have set out where any assets can be found in an encrypted file. This is with my youngest brother but he cannot access it without a password which is held by someone else only to be given up in the event of my death.

This does not help with your first point unless you also make a Living Will which requires more trust.

But yes I struggled intitally with how people would track down my assets.

i think nearly everyone wants to pass their assets on, but they just put off making a will, or think they're too young to make one. Also, people die unexpectedly, so even if they keep a file of all their assets, they may open a bank account today and get killed on the way home and not be able to update the file. Or they simply put off updating the file because they don't expect to die.

[asiawatcher]

Always smart to have a will and name the banks and their locations. In these days of international and local banking I for one need to write it down for the sake of my wife and kids. I would be well pissed from beyond the ether if I knew the banks grabbed what I have and my family had no benefit.

[davejones]

Always smart to have a will and name the banks and their locations. In these days of international and local banking I for one need to write it down for the sake of my wife and kids. I would be well pissed from beyond the ether if I knew the banks grabbed what I have and my family had no benefit.

Very good advice. But very few will follow it. Naming banks in a will would be a hassle though, as I change banks often. Currently got a 5-month fixed rate at BB, but when that's done with I'll probably move to whatever bank is paying the most interest at the time. But I have my bank books here, so family would find them. But they'd have no idea of my internet-only accounts.

[Gone]

If the person dies then the next of kin or any family member just needs the death certificate and they can clean out the account and close it.

If there is no next of kin here then the embassy (Deceased person's embassy) can take the money out and try to find the next of kin in their home country and give it to them.

[Naam]

If the person dies then the next of kin or any family member just needs the death certificate and they can clean out the account and close it.

If there is no next of kin here then the embassy (Deceased person's embassy) can take the money out and try to find the next of kin in their home country and give it to them.

for the record: the Embassy can't take any money out and the Embassy will not lift a finger to attempt to.

[MrRealDeal]

Believe they were given the option to invoke a service charge when balance got down to a very low level but not sure many actually do - they will ask depositors not to close account and just leave a few baht in it (so they can easily use again later) - suspect active account is a plus mark for the branch holding.

Kasicorn closed one of my accounts once as it went to zero

[MrRealDeal]

If the person dies then the next of kin or any family member just needs the death certificate and they can clean out the account and close it.

If there is no next of kin here then the embassy (Deceased person's embassy) can take the money out and try to find the next of kin in their home country and give it to them.

I'm sorry but that's just not true , not true in Thailand or anyplace else , a death cirfificate does not mean you are the beneficiary of the account, nor will any banker just turn over the account because you have one.

[davejones]

If the person dies then the next of kin or any family member just needs the death certificate and they can clean out the account and close it.

If there is no next of kin here then the embassy (Deceased person's embassy) can take the money out and try to find the next of kin in their home country and give it to them.

None of this is true.

What you are saying is that if I make a will and leave my money to a non-relative, then a relative could get my death certificate first and withdraw the money from any bank accounts. That is complete nonsense. Same about the Embassy - they don't have any right to withdraw the money.

[bdenner]

Have a situation here where the deceased died without a will. His father (next of kin) was more than willing to pass on his bank deposit to the TGF (of 5 years) and drafted a letter saying so but the Thai bank refused to hand the moneys over claiming they wanted all documentation proving the father as next of kin as well as certified translations. After paying the costs of obtaining the paperwork including a flight to the embassy in BKK from Udon made the whole exercise pointless. So the funds remain untouched.

I have 2 wills crossed referenced to each other, one for my homeland assets and one here in Thailand all bank accounts are detailed. Each will has an executor so hopefully my visa deposit will go where it's supposed to. Everything else we own here is in TW's name.

[MrRealDeal]

The only entity thats legaly authorised to disperse a dead persons assets who dies intestate is a court of Law ...... Johnney Joe or Jane needs to bring the paperwork to a court and the court decides what to do , because johnney Joe and Jane generally think it should all go to them and not the other guy. And a race to the bank is not the correct way to deal with it.

Even the executor of the estate can't just run out and distribute the assets according to the will , unless it's in the form of a trust , because the court allows for time for people to make claims against an estate if they feel they have just cause , like a new will or coersion of the existing will.

In a normal course of events the Executor goes to the court the court says ok fine thats what it says and no one is contesting it and grants "probate" to the executor and then they are allowed to distribute the assets because the court says they can not because of any other reason. The Executor must be officially appointed by the court before they can distribute the assets according to the will or the change of the will the court may make.

This is also because Johnney Joe and Jane could normally care less about the dead persons creditors and dead people who owe money still owe it, and creditors are paid before anyone else gets free stuff , obviously a race to the death cirtifacate and the bank would be againt the people who are at the top of the list to get the assets in favor of the people at the bottom of the list.

I'm not saying people don't grab and run or do illegal things even banks, but thats how it's supposed to work for obvious reasons.

In case anyone cares the main reason to have a trust instead of a will which is essentially the same thing, is that with a will any nutjob can contest the will and the estate has to pay the lawyers , with a trust the nutjobs have to pay for their own lawyers. So obviously more wills are contested by nutjobs than trusts because the nutjobs have nothing to lose when the estate is paying the legal fees. Their are other reasons as well of course.

[davejones]

In the UK the executor can just distribute the money. No court case is necessary. This is how it works if value of estate is low, which covers the vast majority of the population. You need to get probate in certain cases. It's all pretty straightforward though. Not many wills are contested.

[MrRealDeal]

The actual answer to the question as I understand it is ....... Unclaimed money that is eventually discovered to belong to a dead person is transfered to the government and is normally held for a stautory period of time and if it remains unclaimed it becomes property of the government. I don't know the stautory time limit in Thailand but you can be sure their is one as they aren't going to wait forever.

This same principle also applys in cases such as a bank closure where the bank closes or moves and they are not bankrupt and would be happy to pay you but you are not around to collect. They are required to send the funds to the government for "safekeeping" until claimed or the time runs out.

The exception to this general practice is Land ...... Land can be claimed by adverse posession ( not thai related) if a person dies and you were to take over the land , it could actually even be a live person , for a period of time normally 7 years but it varys from state to state , and use the land in an "open and notorious manner that a dilligent landowner would notice" if the landowner does not complain then a claim can be made and the actual owner is out of luck, their can be other requirements as well such as payment of taxes , basicly if you lie for 7 years that the land is yours and you do it properly the courts are forced to give you a clean title to the land. This was origionaly intended to put a time limit on claims against actual landowners and because people felt that failure to excersie your property rights for a long period of time was a good enough reason for you to lose them and rather than the government stealing it it was better for a citizen to steal it ! lol ..... Which back then was probabbly a farmer so it was actually true as they were utalising the land and paying the tax on it.

[MrRealDeal]

In the UK the executor can just distribute the money. No court case is necessary. This is how it works if value of estate is low, which covers the vast majority of the population. You need to get probate in certain cases. It's all pretty straightforward though. Not many wills are contested.

England and Wales

When someone dies, the term "probate" usually refers to the legal process whereby the deceased's assets are collected together and, following various legal and fiscal steps and processes, eventually distributed to the beneficiaries of the estate. Technically the term has a particular legal meaning, but it is generally used within the English legal profession as a term to cover all procedures concerned with the administration of a deceased person's estate. As a legal discipline the subject is vast and it is only possible in an article such as this to cover the most common situations, but even that only scratches the surface.

All legal procedures concerned with probate (as defined above) come within the jurisdiction of the Family Division of the High Court of Justice by virtue of Section 25 of the Senior Courts Act 1981. The High Court is therefore the only body that is able to issue the documents which give persons the ability to actually deal with a deceased person's estate, such as to enable them to close bank accounts or sell property or shares. It is the production and issuing of these documents, known collectively as "grants of representation" that is the primary function of the Probate Registries, which are part of the High Court, to which the general public and probate professionals alike apply to for the grants of representation

The amount you are reffering to is 5000 Pounds , I highly doubt most people in England die with less than 5000 pounds , but i'm not English so I don't really know that.

Edited September 17, 2012 by MrRealDeal

[davejones]

In the UK the executor can just distribute the money. No court case is necessary. This is how it works if value of estate is low, which covers the vast majority of the population. You need to get probate in certain cases. It's all pretty straightforward though. Not many wills are contested.

England and Wales

When someone dies, the term "probate" usually refers to the legal process whereby the deceased's assets are collected together and, following various legal and fiscal steps and processes, eventually distributed to the beneficiaries of the estate. Technically the term has a particular legal meaning, but it is generally used within the English legal profession as a term to cover all procedures concerned with the administration of a deceased person's estate. As a legal discipline the subject is vast and it is only possible in an article such as this to cover the most common situations, but even that only scratches the surface.

All legal procedures concerned with probate (as defined above) come within the jurisdiction of the Family Division of the High Court of Justice by virtue of Section 25 of the Senior Courts Act 1981. The High Court is therefore the only body that is able to issue the documents which give persons the ability to actually deal with a deceased person's estate, such as to enable them to close bank accounts or sell property or shares. It is the production and issuing of these documents, known collectively as "grants of representation" that is the primary function of the Probate Registries, which are part of the High Court, to which the general public and probate professionals alike apply to for the grants of representation

When my father died, my mother took the will and death certificate to the bank and the closed teh account and transferred the money to my mother. House was in their joint names, so was transferred to my mother without probate.

From UK government website...

In most cases above, the bank or relevant institution will need to see the grant before transferring control of the assets. However if the estate is small some organisations, such as insurance companies and building societies, may release money to you at their discretion.

When a grant may not be needed

A grant of representation may not be needed where:

• the person who died left less than £5,000
  
• they owned everything jointly with someone else and everything passes automatically to the surviving joint owner
  

To establish whether the assets can be obtained without a grant, the executor or administrator would need to write to each institution informing them of the death and enclosing a photocopy of the death certificate (and will if there is one).

Anyway, this is way off topic, so my last post on the subject.

Edited September 17, 2012 by davejones

[theslime]

Writing a Will in A Country that has had many crazy attempts reported of Murder of the Benefactor.may well put a few off. The sheer stupidity and total ease thinking they,ll get away with murder of a (Loved One) bamboozles me.

[NancyL]

The actual answer to the question as I understand it is ....... Unclaimed money that is eventually discovered to belong to a dead person is transfered to the government and is normally held for a stautory period of time and if it remains unclaimed it becomes property of the government. I don't know the stautory time limit in Thailand but you can be sure their is one as they aren't going to wait forever.

This same principle also applys in cases such as a bank closure where the bank closes or moves and they are not bankrupt and would be happy to pay you but you are not around to collect. They are required to send the funds to the government for "safekeeping" until claimed or the time runs out.

The exception to this general practice is Land ...... Land can be claimed by adverse posession ( not thai related) if a person dies and you were to take over the land , it could actually even be a live person , for a period of time normally 7 years but it varys from state to state , and use the land in an "open and notorious manner that a dilligent landowner would notice" if the landowner does not complain then a claim can be made and the actual owner is out of luck, their can be other requirements as well such as payment of taxes , basicly if you lie for 7 years that the land is yours and you do it properly the courts are forced to give you a clean title to the land. This was origionaly intended to put a time limit on claims against actual landowners and because people felt that failure to excersie your property rights for a long period of time was a good enough reason for you to lose them and rather than the government stealing it it was better for a citizen to steal it ! lol ..... Which back then was probabbly a farmer so it was actually true as they were utalising the land and paying the tax on it.

Thank you, Mr. Real Deal, for the answer to my specific question. How long does the bank hold onto the account prior to having to turn it over to the government and how hard do they look to determine if someone is dead? In theory, that shouldn't be a difficult exercise since they copy the account holder's passport when the account is opened. They should only have to ask the Embassy if the account holder is still alive. In practice, I don't know if this is done.

Part of the reason I'm asking this is that I'm assisting a family who is in the process of repatriating a loved one who has dementia and several large Thai bank accounts. One of the banks, in particular, is making it very difficult for them to get to the funds. Everyday a new "problem" i.e. his signature looks different than when he opened the account (many years ago before dementia affected his handwriting), his passport number is different (duh, passports are only valid for ten years and unfortunately he didn't save his old one), some documents presented list the three full names of the account holder, yet the account is just in the first and last name, etc, etc. Yesterday I was told by the manager of another branch of the same bank that if a branch losses a large account, then the manager is expected to "make up" the loss by bringing in new accounts of the same value. That explains why she's throwing up blocks every day -- knowing the family is here for just a couple weeks to make arrangements. I think she's hoping they'll just forget about it and go away.

Fortunately, the man has a Will, but it's one of those Wills downloaded from the internet and not properly witnessed. The other option is just to wait until the man passes, and then work thru the Thai probabe system of having the Will translated and presented in Thai court. That will really eat into the account balance.

These are assets sorely needed by the family to take care of this man. It so sad that a selfish bank manager is more concerned maintaining the funds on deposit at her branch and advancing her career. Fortunately, in this case we were able to discover bankbooks, etc. But, I've worked on other cases where the expat with dementia has only a vague idea of where his assets are located and no bankbooks, etc.

Edited September 18, 2012 by NancyL

[NancyL]

I'm a newbie to the banking forum, although I've been posting on the CM and Visa forum for a long time. So, please forgive my questions

How long does a large account in a Thai bank have to sit dormant before it is turned over to the Thai govenment?

What attempts, if any, does a bank make to contact an account owner or his heirs for dormant account for expats? (Remember, expats have to provide a copy of their passport when they open an account.)

Edited September 18, 2012 by NancyL

[topt]

I'm a newbie to the banking forum, although I've been posting on the CM and Visa forum for a long time. So, please forgive my questions

How long does a large account in a Thai bank have to sit dormant before it is turned over to the Thai govenment?

What attempts, if any, does a bank make to contact an account owner or his heirs for dormant account for expats? (Remember, expats have to provide a copy of their passport when they open an account.)

Nancy, I cannot answer your first specific question but I suspect quite a long time.

As to the second part I would say not at all. As long as there is money in the account to pay any annual fees then why would they bother? It may also depend by bank and account as I remember reading someone saying that their account had been suspended when it had not been accessed for a while.

In contrast a friends SCB account had no activity for well over a year without anything happening - other than deducting the annual ATM card charge and adding interest.

[ajarnpot]

I beleive it belongs to me. Please send me pm with list of all dead wealthy people in Thailand with no claimants. I am sure I can sort out decent id in khao san ans would be happy to undertake this task. for the benefit of expats everywhere

p.s. no debts taken on