U S Wants The Film "innocence Of Muslims" To Be Removed From Google

[Ulysses G.]

How does criticism of the State of Israel, factually correct or not, translate to being anti-Semitic?

Posting a bunch of illegitimate historical revisionism and complete hokum about the Jewish state might be construed as anti-Semitic by some.

[koheesti]

A post which violates Fair Use Policy has been removed from view. When quoting outside sources, please use only the first 3 sentences of the material and then a link.

Sorry, I think that was me.

(I'm sure I've used more than the first three sentences in other threads. )

This was it, in 3 sentences:

At the time of writing, it is unknown whether the protests were planned by those who attacked the embassy. The film has only recently been dubbed into Arabic and promoted on Arabic channels, indicating someone was deliberately trying to provoke an angry mob. Which brings us to the intentions of the filmmakers themselves.

More at http://www.abc.net.a...ed/4261316.html

I think it was me. But anyway, Shouldn't these Arabic TV channels that show the offensive video get burned to the ground?

[koheesti]

Contrary to the main stream that we broke through so many superstitions ,the muslims believe the sun set in a pool of mud ?Do you believe it ?

They believe the prophet rode on his mythical horse and had a meeting with Jesus Abraham and many other prophets ,do you believe it ?

And you cannot even refute this pap without offending the sensibilities of those folks ,And if you try to argue about this poppycock stuff you can be killed, lashed or whatever ,no rational discussion is possible ,The coran ,has to be taken litterally ..no discussion about it period ,for the entire planet no less !

Apparently even if you were to take the Quran as truth and made a movie about it they people there would still riot and kill. Maybe the problem was really the bad acting and special effects? Maybe if instead they made it like The Ten Commandments people would celebrating.

[MrRealDeal]

Well Para it's questionable that doing things that are likely to incite riots are protected speech because it's not , the question is are the people rioting being so unreasonable that the speech is protected , in this case so far it is ...... however we lose the ability to say things over time because eventually people decide that the riotiers are not as unreasonable as first thought. For example the word nigger was used comonly and now is not protected speech because it's deemed not to be so unreasonable for a black person to punch you in the face for calling them that.

The reality is that idiots like this guy are just making it easier for anti muslim speech to become in the catagory of "fighting words" which are not a protected from of speaking. All it will take is for riots to happen in America then one becomes accountable for the riots they caused and some court has to decide if they want to protect sometthing that causes riots and generally they don't.

You have the right to say whatever you want but you also have the right to be dragged into a court and held responsible for your statements.

Would the Supreme Court say doing things like burning a Koran or making fun of Muhammad knowing that it's highly offensive is hate or constitutionally protected dissent....... sorry to say but it's gona come down someday as hate not constitutionally protected dissent speak because thats what it is.

[koheesti]

Thus far, I haven't heard one offended Muslim mention anything specific about the content of the film trailer.

What, in the trailer, do they refute as being factually false? That M bedded a 9 year old girl? That he declared that non-believers either pay ransom or get killed (for remaining non-believers in his beliefs)? That M was the leader of raiding parties on defenseless villages? All those things are in the Q'ran and are alluded to in the film trailer.

Thank you. I don't believe there isn't anything in the video that doesn't match what is in the Quran. However, isn't there a modern ban on portraying Mohammed? Isn't that part of what got the cartoon people going crazy?

[simple1]

How does criticism of the State of Israel, factually correct or not, translate to being anti-Semitic?

Posting a bunch of illegitimate historical revisionism and complete hokum about the Jewish state might be construed as anti-Semitic by some.

In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations. Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US, link at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

[thaicbr]

Ban it because its crap.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[MrRealDeal]

The fighting words doctrine, in United States constitutional law, is a limitation to freedom of speech as protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.

In 1942, the U.S. Supreme Court established the doctrine by a 9-0 decision in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire. It held that "insulting or 'fighting words,' those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" are among the "well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech the prevention and punishment of [which] ... have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem."

Thats the Law ..... the question is does burning a Koran or other similar things "tend to incite an immediate breach of peace ? ..... it's pretty obvious they do.

I posted this to try and let the law explain the difference between being offended and fighting words. Hate is actually protected right up until this level of fighting words.

Edited September 16, 2012 by MrRealDeal

[koheesti]

It seems the man is a con-artist and I stand by my comment that he is an uneducated bigot...albeit a Coptic Christian one.

I'm not sure he is an uneducated bigot. Maybe he just got tired of a life taking sh*t from his Muslim neighbors. Imagine if a Palestinian made an anti-Israeli film, no one would be calling him an uneducated bigot.

People should read up on what the Coptic Christians in Egypt go through. It could help understand why this guy made the video in the first place. The thing is, because they are Christians being persecuted, we rarely hear about it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copts#Persecution_and_discrimination_in_Egypt

[David Barker]

It's too late for that. Even if the film is to be removed from youtube etc. - by now there are probably thousands of copies on people's computers all over the world.

Plus - if it would not be available nobody can see and find out on their own what a measly excuse for a movie it in fact is. It could even be more demonized than it is now. Humans can think for themselves if given the opportunity.

Unfortunately this isn't really about that movie or some cartoons, they are just being used to stir things up. As long as people in the Mid-Eastern countries can be led to focus on what other 'countries' just did evil to them they will not be able nor willing to think about their personal freedom.

There are times when muslims mock other religions but that seems to be OK nobody throws a wobbly it is just a case off get on with it think what you like.

[koheesti]

Looks like were headed right back to the Dark Ages where its illegal to criticize religion. I am getting sick and tired of Islam demanding this shroud of respect it is never willing to afford to others. You DO NOT have a right to not be offended in this life and you DO NOT have the right to inflict violence on others because of pictures or YouTube clips a half a world away. It is time the Governments of the world stood up to these murderous thugs and said no instead of cowtowing to them by granting their command for censorship under threat of violence.

Have you ever lived or work near a mosque? They have speakers blasting 4 times a day with loud prayers but if other neighbors make any noise to disturb their peace, they raise hell and get upset. Is this fair?

They get quite upset with the nearby temples.

Just saying....

I once suggested to a Muslim co-worker that for prayers they should get someone like Shakira to do it. His eyes got real big and he said I was going to burn in hell for suggesting that. When I pressed him on whether not mosques compete with each other on the best call to prayer, he begrudgingly admitted maybe a little. I think he was looking for a lightning bolt to strike him down for that - or a mob.

[koheesti]

What gets me is the publicity sends stuff like this viral!

If it wasn't in the news who would of known about it now the current view count is over 5,000,000. How? By making a fuss over it.

Gotta love America and the way it defines 'Freedom of speech'

Oh? Well how do YOU define it? Free except when it offends someone? Gotta love America haters and the way they use THEIR freedom speech to criticize everyone ELSE's freedom of speech...

This article explains the history behind the way free speech is viewed in the USA versus Europe and India/Pakistan.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/frenemies-free-speech_554090.html

[koheesti]

Well Para it's questionable that doing things that are likely to incite riots are protected speech because it's not , the question is are the people rioting being so unreasonable that the speech is protected , in this case so far it is ...... however we lose the ability to say things over time because eventually people decide that the riotiers are not as unreasonable as first thought.

Someone is inciting the people to riot and that would be the Muslim leaders. Let's toss them in jail.

Remember back to the Danish cartoons? They first appeared several months before the riots in an Egyptian newspaper and no one complained. Then some nasty Islamo-fanatic added some of his own that were really offensive and incited people to riot.

[simple1]

It seems the man is a con-artist and I stand by my comment that he is an uneducated bigot...albeit a Coptic Christian one.

I'm not sure he is an uneducated bigot. Maybe he just got tired of a life taking sh*t from his Muslim neighbors. Imagine if a Palestinian made an anti-Israeli film, no one would be calling him an uneducated bigot.

People should read up on what the Coptic Christians in Egypt go through. It could help understand why this guy made the video in the first place. The thing is, because they are Christians being persecuted, we rarely hear about it...

http://en.wikipedia....nation_in_Egypt

You really think it was a good idea for the sponsors/producers of this film to publish the content, when they proudly state that they were aware of the potential consequences. Also saying they wanted to educate Muslims so they would reject their faith They have exposed their fellow Coptics in Egypt to the acceleration of repression and violence. No country is going to step in and stop the repression by force. So I would agree they are uneducated bigots. No, a better description is absolute fools.

[ggold]

Funny how this seems to be turning into an anti Israel debate! I did not realise that the Lybians, Egyptians, and Syrians were trying to blame Israel for what happened or is going on in those respective countries? Even the latest protests over a film produced by a coptic christian of Egyprtian origin is not being blamed on the Israelis.

To even suggest that what is going on in the Arab world is somehow something to do with Israel, shows ignorance of the facts. To answer a posters comments, the only people who disenfranchised the Palestinians are the Palestinians themselves and the arab nations who did not want the Palestinians to make peace with Isreal.

Even now those nations are more worried about loosing control over their people, than they are over the creation of a palestinian state. The fact is most of these people are dissenfranchised by thier own governments. Now they have had enough = Arab spring.

To bring it back on topic.

A faith that uses children as suicide bombers, an Imam who plants burnt pages of the qoran on a mentally challenged christian girl, a people who have no problem killing other muslims in the name of their brand of Islam. If indeed there is anything right with Islam, its a shame no one is trying to show it.

Sent from my GT-P6200 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited September 16, 2012 by ggold

[koheesti]

It's too late for that. Even if the film is to be removed from youtube etc. - by now there are probably thousands of copies on people's computers all over the world.

Plus - if it would not be available nobody can see and find out on their own what a measly excuse for a movie it in fact is. It could even be more demonized than it is now. Humans can think for themselves if given the opportunity.

Unfortunately this isn't really about that movie or some cartoons, they are just being used to stir things up. As long as people in the Mid-Eastern countries can be led to focus on what other 'countries' just did evil to them they will not be able nor willing to think about their personal freedom.

There are times when muslims mock other religions but that seems to be OK nobody throws a wobbly it is just a case off get on with it think what you like.

I wonder what the reaction in the Middle East would be if for once, just once, Westerners rioted outside their embassies? Imagine, we could report that some minor imam at a small mosque said something bad about Christianity. Then all throughout the world in countries with large Christian populations we rioted and stormed embassies of Muslim countries, even killing an ambassador or two, burn a few hundred mosques just for good measure. Would the Muslims think, "ok, fair play, we understand what it is like to have your religion slandered."

[simple1]

@softgeorge: Good work by the Australian Police, six protesters in Sydney now arrested. Quote from the senior police officer "You can be assured, we are waiting. We will deal with you. This is a no-nonsense engagement. If you want to act like you are extremist criminals, we will treat you like you are extremist criminals,"

Link http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/14865694/police-hunting-down-extremist-criminals-after-protest/

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Looks like were headed right back to the Dark Ages where its illegal to criticize religion. I am getting sick and tired of Islam demanding this shroud of respect it is never willing to afford to others. You DO NOT have a right to not be offended in this life and you DO NOT have the right to inflict violence on others because of pictures or YouTube clips a half a world away. It is time the Governments of the world stood up to these murderous thugs and said no instead of cowtowing to them by granting their command for censorship under threat of violence.

Have you ever lived or work near a mosque? They have speakers blasting 4 times a day with loud prayers but if other neighbors make any noise to disturb their peace, they raise hell and get upset. Is this fair?

They get quite upset with the nearby temples.

Just saying....

I once suggested to a Muslim co-worker that for prayers they should get someone like Shakira to do it. His eyes got real big and he said I was going to burn in hell for suggesting that. When I pressed him on whether not mosques compete with each other on the best call to prayer, he begrudgingly admitted maybe a little. I think he was looking for a lightning bolt to strike him down for that - or a mob.

This is close to the crux of the problem. Moslems often react to criticism of their religion with an intensity that astonishes most westerners. The same can be said of some countries and their monarchies! In middle eastern countries I have often noted a strange belief that everything that comes out of a country must be approved by the government of that country. Their countries tend to be that way so they think that's the way it must be elsewhere. A good example is the widespread and entrenched belief that the BBC is the official voice of the British government.

[MrRealDeal]

Well Para it's questionable that doing things that are likely to incite riots are protected speech because it's not , the question is are the people rioting being so unreasonable that the speech is protected , in this case so far it is ...... however we lose the ability to say things over time because eventually people decide that the riotiers are not as unreasonable as first thought.

Someone is inciting the people to riot and that would be the Muslim leaders. Let's toss them in jail.

Remember back to the Danish cartoons? They first appeared several months before the riots in an Egyptian newspaper and no one complained. Then some nasty Islamo-fanatic added some of his own that were really offensive and incited people to riot.

I'm not sure what your point is but legally speaking inciting people to riot is against the law and the person who thinks it's legal in the USA to offend people doesn't know much about the law , their are many State laws and local laws that make rudeness , and offensive behavior a crime and it's up to the courts to decide , even cartoons showing charactors peeing on a Ford or Chevy are illegal for being offensive in places in the USA , it's just nonsense to say that it's perfectly legal in the usa to be rude and offend people because it's not. People get away with it mostly because no one cares to complain not because it's legal.

[koheesti]

It seems the man is a con-artist and I stand by my comment that he is an uneducated bigot...albeit a Coptic Christian one.

I'm not sure he is an uneducated bigot. Maybe he just got tired of a life taking sh*t from his Muslim neighbors. Imagine if a Palestinian made an anti-Israeli film, no one would be calling him an uneducated bigot.

People should read up on what the Coptic Christians in Egypt go through. It could help understand why this guy made the video in the first place. The thing is, because they are Christians being persecuted, we rarely hear about it...

http://en.wikipedia....nation_in_Egypt

You really think it was a good idea for the sponsors/producers of this film to publish the content, when they proudly state that they were aware of the potential consequences. Also saying they wanted to educate Muslims so they would reject their faith They have exposed their fellow Coptics in Egypt to the acceleration of repression and violence. No country is going to step in and stop the repression by force. So I would agree they are uneducated bigots. No, a better description is absolute fools.

In general, I don't promote doing or saying things just to offend people. But you're right, this guy should know that it is only going to make matters worse for family and friends and other Coptics back in Egypt.

[ggold]

Looks like were headed right back to the Dark Ages where its illegal to criticize religion. I am getting sick and tired of Islam demanding this shroud of respect it is never willing to afford to others. You DO NOT have a right to not be offended in this life and you DO NOT have the right to inflict violence on others because of pictures or YouTube clips a half a world away. It is time the Governments of the world stood up to these murderous thugs and said no instead of cowtowing to them by granting their command for censorship under threat of violence.

Have you ever lived or work near a mosque? They have speakers blasting 4 times a day with loud prayers but if other neighbors make any noise to disturb their peace, they raise hell and get upset. Is this fair?

They get quite upset with the nearby temples.

Just saying....

I once suggested to a Muslim co-worker that for prayers they should get someone like Shakira to do it. His eyes got real big and he said I was going to burn in hell for suggesting that. When I pressed him on whether not mosques compete with each other on the best call to prayer, he begrudgingly admitted maybe a little. I think he was looking for a lightning bolt to strike him down for that - or a mob.

This is close to the crux of the problem. Moslems often react to criticism of their religion with an intensity that astonishes most westerners. The same can be said of some countries and their monarchies! In middle eastern countries I have often noted a strange belief that everything that comes out of a country must be approved by the government of that country. Their countries tend to be that way so they think that's the way it must be elsewhere. A good example is the widespread and entrenched belief that the BBC is the official voice of the British government.

Well actually the BBC is the voice of the British government, its just that the government try to pretend it isn't. Thats why the government of the day always tries to blame the BBC for being anti that government. It pretence!

Sent from my GT-P6200 using Thaivisa Connect App

[raybal5]

Why is it ok for some radical Muslims to threaten and carry out death to non-Muslims and yet they cannot cope with their prophet being made fun of? What *profanity edited out* up religion it is. How can the Muslims be so brainwashed and so violent? Clearly they are a weak minded people. If the same were the case with radical christians or radical jews we would howl them down and run them out of town.

[MrRealDeal]

So to return the question how do you define 'The right to free speech' anything as long as it doesn't offend the star spangled banner?

You don't think that freedom of speech includes things that offend Americans? Try going to the movies or watch a comedy sketch or read a book some time.

It does not include offending people in many places in the usa sorry to tell you , even rudeness is against the law in many states , it depends if the offensive behavior is meaningless or not.

Being rude or offensive just to anger someone is not protected by anything but laws against it in favor of people having the right to quiet enjoyment of their lives mostly with disturbing the peace laws.

However if your making a point or a critisism that happens to offend someone thats different because it's not a meaningless act.

So you are sort of correct that our laws do protect some things that offend people but it would be incorrect to think that being offensive or rude even is protected by the 1st amendment for the sake of being rude or offensive because it's not. It used to be and was intended to be but like most things it got so out of hand that the Laws evloved to the point of being almost unrecognisable today from a pure 1st amendment standpoint.

It's an act of Terrorism to stand outside a store protesting the sale of meat if 1 person decides not to buy some they intended to buy ....... it's called the Animal Terriorism Act .......... Freedom has come a long way ! lol

I could site thousands of examples just as insane as that involving demostrating , speaking , ect.

[koheesti]

Well Para it's questionable that doing things that are likely to incite riots are protected speech because it's not , the question is are the people rioting being so unreasonable that the speech is protected , in this case so far it is ...... however we lose the ability to say things over time because eventually people decide that the riotiers are not as unreasonable as first thought.

Someone is inciting the people to riot and that would be the Muslim leaders. Let's toss them in jail.

Remember back to the Danish cartoons? They first appeared several months before the riots in an Egyptian newspaper and no one complained. Then some nasty Islamo-fanatic added some of his own that were really offensive and incited people to riot.

I'm not sure what your point is but legally speaking inciting people to riot is against the law and the person who thinks it's legal in the USA to offend people doesn't know much about the law , their are many State laws and local laws that make rudeness , and offensive behavior a crime and it's up to the courts to decide , even cartoons showing charactors peeing on a Ford or Chevy are illegal for being offensive in places in the USA , it's just nonsense to say that it's perfectly legal in the usa to be rude and offend people because it's not. People get away with it mostly because no one cares to complain not because it's legal.

The point is simple. The ONLY reason anyone is rioting in the first place is because their leaders told them to riot. I guarantee not a single one saw the video and thought, "I'm going to grab my al Qaeda flag and go scale the wall at the US Embassy!". These people were shown the video and told, "Look! See how the Great Satan slanders the Prohpet! Go! Go out and riot and kill!!". [i'm paraphrasing]

Edited September 16, 2012 by koheesti

[watcharacters]

Under no circumstances......what has happened to the US? They used to be the World leaders when it came to Free Speech!!

If you bow to ignorant uneducated bigoted mobs then one day we will all end up in the same gutter alongside them.

"one day we will all end up in the same gutter alongside them."

I fear we're almost there already

[Para]

So you are sort of correct that our laws do protect some things that offend people but it would be incorrect to think that being offensive or rude even is protected by the 1st amendment for the sake of being rude or offensive because it's not. It used to be and was intended to be but like most things it got so out of hand that the Laws evloved to the point of being almost unrecognisable today from a pure 1st amendment standpoint.

I think that's the crux of the problem the way America/Americans are perceived by the rest of the world when they decide to bend rules they are so constantly promoting as and when.

The current poll on this thread is/was showing 70+% to keep the video online.

I an far from anti-America but I am certainly anti-hypocrisy regardless of the country with England included in that.

[MrRealDeal]

Well Para it's questionable that doing things that are likely to incite riots are protected speech because it's not , the question is are the people rioting being so unreasonable that the speech is protected , in this case so far it is ...... however we lose the ability to say things over time because eventually people decide that the riotiers are not as unreasonable as first thought.

Someone is inciting the people to riot and that would be the Muslim leaders. Let's toss them in jail.

Remember back to the Danish cartoons? They first appeared several months before the riots in an Egyptian newspaper and no one complained. Then some nasty Islamo-fanatic added some of his own that were really offensive and incited people to riot.

I'm not sure what your point is but legally speaking inciting people to riot is against the law and the person who thinks it's legal in the USA to offend people doesn't know much about the law , their are many State laws and local laws that make rudeness , and offensive behavior a crime and it's up to the courts to decide , even cartoons showing charactors peeing on a Ford or Chevy are illegal for being offensive in places in the USA , it's just nonsense to say that it's perfectly legal in the usa to be rude and offend people because it's not. People get away with it mostly because no one cares to complain not because it's legal.

The point is simple. The ONLY reason anyone is rioting in the first place is because their leaders told them to riot. I guarantee not a single one saw the video and thought, "I'm going to grab my al Qaeda flag and go scale the wall at the US Embassy!". These people were shown the video and told, "Look! See how the Great Satan slanders the Prohpet! Go! Go out and riot and kill!!". [i'm paraphrasing]

That may be partially true but the reason is because of what incited the leaders which is the vid. Unreasonable to do so or not it's the vid that is at the root and the cause of the problem.

One concept that seems to escape people is that the standard for fighting words is not the same for everyone and it's not the speaker who decides it's the listener , you could call one person say me a nigger and since I am white get away with it because it's not considered fighting words but to a black man it would be. People don't seem to understand that just because they don't think somethng is offensive or because it doesnt offend them that means that it shouldnt offend anyone else either and legally thats just not the case. People will eventually understand that intentionally offending even muslims is the same as intentionally offending anyone else and when done in a meaningless way is in fact illegal.

The arugment that their love for their god is unreasonable so they shouldn't be so offended won't pass muster at the Supreme Court I assure you. Insulting someones mother is considered fighting words , the argument that there god is false or whatever way people try and package it will not make meaningless instults any more legal , if insulting your mother is fighting words obviously your god also qualifys ....... Should it be that way ? I don't know, all I know is that no one is going to win a case using the 1st amendment as a defence for a meaningless insult against a muslim the way the laws are written today. The idea that ..... well they are just offended to easily , is not gona work in a court trust me.

All I can tell you is wait and see if you don't believe me and just read the part I posted about fighting words and the law.

How can it be legal for one group to insult another but the other not be able to insult them back in the same way ? Bacause the 2 groups have different beliefs and are insulted by different things at differing levels of anger , just because you can insult a christan by saying jesus isn't real doesn't mean you can do so to a muslim about their muhummad , because a christian doesnt get so angered it's considered injurious to say that , but to a muslim it is. Once again it's the listener that gets to decide not the talker. If in fact Christians got as angered that would be illegal as well but thats just not the case.

Why can a black man call me a honkey but me not call him a nigger back ? Because of the different levels of anger created by racist terms, it's considered injurious on it's face for him and hence illegal for me to say but to call me a honkey or some other white person slur would not be considered fighting words because it doesn't offend me in the same way.

I would point this out ...... it's illegal to insult a muslims mother just like your's or mine , do you really think any court will hold a muslims god in lesser status than their mother ?

[KKvampire]

These "demonstrators with violence" have attacked British and US property in these countries, I begin to think education and humanitarian aid means nothing to many of these thugs and the governments in these countries are so weak they are unable to do anything. Of course i am one who believes and has always believed the west is wasting its time by trying help those who are intolerant and believe their particular faith can have nothing said about it other than worshipped .

[MrRealDeal]

So you are sort of correct that our laws do protect some things that offend people but it would be incorrect to think that being offensive or rude even is protected by the 1st amendment for the sake of being rude or offensive because it's not. It used to be and was intended to be but like most things it got so out of hand that the Laws evloved to the point of being almost unrecognisable today from a pure 1st amendment standpoint.

I think that's the crux of the problem the way America/Americans are perceived by the rest of the world when they decide to bend rules they are so constantly promoting as and when.

The current poll on this thread is/was showing 70+% to keep the video online.

I an far from anti-America but I am certainly anti-hypocrisy regardless of the country with England included in that.

Well the only reason people can do it now and get away with it is because no one has brought a case to court , eventually they will and as unpopular as muslims are any court will decide that even muslims don't have to tolerate fighting words from people. I didnt vote because it's up to google and they decided to keep it up. Most of my posts are more about direct insults like the cartoons or burning of Korans then this absurd movie I couldn't watch more than 10 seconds of before realising it was a complete waste of my time.

[MrRealDeal]

These "demonstrators with violence" have attacked British and US property in these countries, I begin to think education and humanitarian aid means nothing to many of these thugs and the governments in these countries are so weak they are unable to do anything. Of course i am one who believes and has always believed the west is wasting its time by trying help those who are intolerant and believe their particular faith can have nothing said about it other than worshipped .

You don't seroiusly believe the west is helping to do anything but obtain oil do you ? All that "aid" is just bribes for oil contracts in the end , we are not trying to help anyone but ourselves. and from that standpoint it's not really a waste of time but has worked quite well to build pipelines and secure oil wells all over the mid east. You think when Iran gets invaded we will find the wepons of mass destruction ? Or will we just take over one more of the worlds largest oil supplys ?