webfact Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 New Thai spellings for 176 loan words PAKAMARD JAICHALARD, SUPINDA NA MAHACHAI THE NATION BANGKOK: -- The Royal Institute has come up with new spellings of 176 words borrowed from English in order to better reflect how they are pronounced in Thai. Tone marks - wanayuk in Thai - will be added to those words when they appear in the new edition of the institute's official dictionary. They include words such as computer, quota, calorie and radar - all spelt without tone marks. The 176 words were identified by the institute's recent survey of 300 experts, including board members, organisations and language scholars. There were both negative and positive views on the changes. Kanchana Naksakul, a board member and Thai-language teacher, said yesterday the idea was to make the written words correspond with the way they are pronounced. "Words should be written as pronounced," said Kanchana, who is also president of the Thai Language Teachers' Association. "Those who disagree with the new spellings can ignore them. Many words these days are not written the way suggested by the institute anyway." Most of the Royal Institute board agreed to the changes but another survey will determine whether they agree to change the spelling of all the words, Kanchana said. If the majority of the respondents agree to all the changes, the new spellings will appear in the dictionary's next edition. Chinnapat Bhumirat, chief of the Office of the Basic Education Commission, said the Royal Institute's plan was a good start. He suggested that the change shouldn't only ensure that written words are closer to the English pronunciation - it should also cover the syllable stress and the emphasis on long or short sounds in a word. This would help Thai students pronounce English words correctly. Chinnapat also proposed a "brainstorming" session for those involved to thoroughly review and correct words. Wattana Boonjob, a language expert at the Fine Arts Department's Literature and History Office, urged that the changes reflect not just the words borrowed from English, but the entire language. -- The Nation 2012-10-02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Albacore Posted October 2, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 2, 2012 I listened to a debate about this on Thai radio yesterday. They can change the tone markers all they want and it won't make any difference. People will still say the words the same way as before, and likely keep writing them the same way too. The only real way to learn the proper pronunciation of words like "computer" and "helicopter" is to study the English language. Without speaking the correct consonant or vowel sounds, the words will already be mispronounced. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rionoir Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Can't find a list of the words/spellings anywhere, anyone have a link? Is the new spelling going to write the words how Thai people already say them (falling tone on the final syllable 99% of the time) or try to put the stress where an English speaker would put it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Thai could certainly use some renovation. There is a bucket load of redundant and obsolete letters. But it is a bit of a museum piece so I think they will keep it old school. The best thing they could do would be to put a strong push towards English competency. It is another confusing and frustrating language, but at least you can speak to massive amounts of people from many other countries, if you can speak it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobadoy Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Link to the word list please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post northernboy Posted October 2, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 2, 2012 I love western Thai linguistic experts! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezzra Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Only the heading of the article is a head scratcher,, "new Thai spelling for 176 loan words" is bewildering enough to think what da hell they are talking about, and than you find out that they actually going to use non thai spellings for thai words,, surly, must be a simpler way to head an article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post loong Posted October 2, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post asdecas Posted October 2, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 2, 2012 I love western Thai linguistic experts! Don't knock us; some of us are quite knowledgeable and have taken the trouble to study the language. Some even help others. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roota Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I haven't managed to find a list of the words yet either but evidently the spelling changes are meant to reflect the way they are actually spoken, in Thai by educated Thai speakers. That's exactly as it should be, IMO. On a larger level, yes, Thai is long overdue for major spelling reform, but the basic conservatism of so many of the academics and bureaucrats involved doesn't give much hope for it happening any time soon. Really they should do what the Laos have done to their written language -- but if you want support for the idea, never say it that way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkt83100 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 IMHO there might be a easy solution to the problem: Just keep the English writing. The kids learn the letters at school anyway, so why not use them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardholder Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Maybe start with "Football" and "Arsenal" first. As far as I can see neither are spelt "Arsenon" or "Footbon"............. Edited October 2, 2012 by cardholder 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdecas Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Generally ธ is reserved to express the "th" English phoneme because it is aspirated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansnl Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 The Thai written language is very difficult, even for many Thai people, educated or not. It would be very much easier to read if the words in a sentence would be seperated, not like now, one continuing stream. There seems to be an advice, somewhere, to do exactly this. The reason this advice was ignored? Probably because any change is viewed as impossible. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaZa9 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As a retired English teacher learning the language , I am never surprised about all the tricky bits and exceptions to the rules that appear across all languages. However , the fact that the Thai language in its current form is less than 100 years old and is so user unfriendly surprised me. But the fact that the Thais make up words for obviously foreign things astounded me. Who would ever have thought the word 'kangaroo' ( already borrowed from Australian Aborigines) and used pretty much across the entire world would be changed to 'jingjoe' by a Thai? Or Ah-gnoon for grapes , and mun-falang for potatoes , neither of which were at all native to these lands. These oddities struck me immediately. Why would anyone conceive of doing so? As I struggle along , my tutor will say , "You'll know this word , it is a farang word." But the Thai substitute letters often make the common English word , or even International brand names , almost unintelligable. And what about puting in the vowels that are obviously 'there'? I applaud Wattana Boonjobs suggestions not just because learning Thai is hard for me , but because it may go some way to assist Thailand in advancing its approachability to all those interested in learning more about it. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narratio Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Must agree. I gave up on learning how to read Thai as I just couldn't get my head around sentences that look like single words. It must also be said that my pronunciation of English Thai words, as written on roadside traffic signs at least, gives my family hours of giggles. The discussions (or arguments) help pass those long drives going up to Bangkok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaZa9 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Generally ธ is reserved to express the "th" English phoneme because it is aspirated. But there is also ท and there is also ถ making 't' sounds ..... so it isnt as if we should really have to use a sound the Thais teach as 'dt'. We are also taught that ก makes a swallowed 'g' sound as in the word 'golf'. Since Thai also offers up ค , ข , ฅ and ฃ that ALL make 'k' sounds , I have to wonder as to why places like "Phuket" and "Kamala" all use the 'g' spelling when they clearly are pronounced with 'k' sounds by the Thai locals. Look , Im not raging against the difficulties of learning a new language . We all 'ka-now' ( know , said as 'no') there are oddities in every languages spellings. But when you cant order a simple Coca Cola without saying , "CAWWK!" to be understood , then the reform of at least the borrowed words spelling is a good idea in my opinion... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123thaibourbon Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I say, go with the flow. Thai peoples accentuate words and thus sounds distinctly 'Thai'... Various dialects and regions wedge pasa glang thammada & sueng already. Other nations avoid anglo-izing their vocabulary to the bitter end. Eg: Mandarin word for computer = dian naow = electric brain. English as spoken in India, PI, USA etc with very different flavors, if you will. Why re-invent the (: Dharma wheel? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeezeLooeze Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) An official letter from the Royal Institute was posted on their Facebook page yesterday denying any spelling changes following the public outcry over (erroneous?) media reports. They say a internal paper was submitted to a committee proposing changes but this had not (yet) met with any official approval. Edited October 2, 2012 by JeezeLooeze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
123thaibourbon Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Generally ธ is reserved to express the "th" English phoneme because it is aspirated. But there is also ท and there is also ถ making 't' sounds ..... so it isnt as if we should really have to use a sound the Thais teach as 'dt'. We are also taught that ก makes a swallowed 'g' sound as in the word 'golf'. Since Thai also offers up ค , ข , ฅ and ฃ that ALL make 'k' sounds , I have to wonder as to why places like "Phuket" and "Kamala" all use the 'g' spelling when they clearly are pronounced with 'k' sounds by the Thai locals. Look , Im not raging against the difficulties of learning a new language . We all 'ka-now' ( know , said as 'no') there are oddities in every languages spellings. But when you cant order a simple Coca Cola without saying , "CAWWK!" to be understood , then the reform of at least the borrowed words spelling is a good idea in my opinion... some placenames have sanskrit origins mixed with Thai. So many words sound the same, despite tones. Literacy allows written word recognition without sentence contexts. Hence, many Thai consonants with very similiar sounds coupled with vowels as well as other consonants. Thais avoid any word with 's' as end sound, eg; dangerous't'.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beach Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Because this is a T (Tho Tauw) and I use it in my Name too when I write in Thai and all Thais pronounce my Name absolutely properly. But then there is i.e. ท which is a T as well and I assume that it depends on the Location of the character which makes it more plausible to use ต or ท Edited October 2, 2012 by beach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilleOle Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Generally ธ is reserved to express the "th" English phoneme because it is aspirated. But there is also ท and there is also ถ making 't' sounds ..... so it isnt as if we should really have to use a sound the Thais teach as 'dt'. We are also taught that ก makes a swallowed 'g' sound as in the word 'golf'. Since Thai also offers up ค , ข , ฅ and ฃ that ALL make 'k' sounds , I have to wonder as to why places like "Phuket" and "Kamala" all use the 'g' spelling when they clearly are pronounced with 'k' sounds by the Thai locals. Look , Im not raging against the difficulties of learning a new language . We all 'ka-now' ( know , said as 'no') there are oddities in every languages spellings. But when you cant order a simple Coca Cola without saying , "CAWWK!" to be understood , then the reform of at least the borrowed words spelling is a good idea in my opinion... COKE Why you guys listing letters that's been removed from the alphabet long time ago? please dont confuse us guys trying to learn Edited October 2, 2012 by lilleOle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 This topic is about the Thai spelling of loan words. The romanisation of Thai words is an entirely different subject and posts about it are off topic here, as are pronunciation guides in Latin script for Thai words. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussie11950 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Why can't I see George's original post at 8.32am? Edited October 2, 2012 by Maestro Removed unrelated quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loong Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Because this is a T (Tho Tauw) and I use it in my Name too when I write in Thai and all Thais pronounce my Name absolutely properly. But then there is i.e. ทwhich is a T as well and I assume that it depends on the Location of the character which makes it more plausible to use ต or ท ต is definitely not a t sound, there is no exact equivalent in English. It's a cross between d and t. Although I do agree that in some names, like Steve, it is pretty close. Sa-dteeve sounds better than Sa-teeve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rionoir Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 But when you cant order a simple Coca Cola without saying , "CAWWK!" to be understood , then the reform of at least the borrowed words spelling is a good idea in my opinion... I use that example so often when talking about Thai/English over here. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Why can't I see George's original post at 8.32am? For this reason: This topic is about the Thai spelling of loan words. The romanisation of Thai words is an entirely different subject and posts about it are off topic here, as are pronunciation guides in Latin script for Thai words. Off-topic posts and the replies to them get deleted. Discuss the romanisation and pronunciation guides in the forum Thai language. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Since the spelling changes are reportedly proposed by the Royal Institute, this document from the same institute about matching Thai characters with foreign characters may be of interest to some: http://www.royin.go.th/upload/246/FileUpload/416_2157.pdf Regarding the discussion whether the t-sound in computer is represented by the correct Thai character, is it in accordance with the linked document? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyuk Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 There is a way to resolve the Thai language issue. Allow the Ministry of Education project for conversion to the Transliteration form Thai Continue to completeion. This should be done concurrently with a national program of teaching English as a second language implemented in all schools institutions and businesses. Stop torturing Thailand's young people by forcing them to learn a dead language. The pay off in social reform would be remarkable and perhaps within five years 90% all Thai Children would be literate in two languages. It has been done before in Asia. As a point of interest many Thai youngsters use what they call 'Karaoke speak' which is a form of English transliterated into Thai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimmer Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Profane post removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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