vijer Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 What?!? Huh?!? So you incorporate words from another language into your language, because you don't have an equivalent word in your language so you change the spelling, I guess English should change the spelling of all those French words we use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 computer คอมพิวเตอร์ In the English pronunciation, is the t aspirated? Myself, I aspirate it, but not all English dictionaries seem to agree: Cambridge dictionary: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/computer?q=computer Oxford dictionary: http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/computer Merriam-Webster dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/computer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaka Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As a retired English teacher learning the language , I am never surprised about all the tricky bits and exceptions to the rules that appear across all languages. However , the fact that the Thai language in its current form is less than 100 years old and is so user unfriendly surprised me. But the fact that the Thais make up words for obviously foreign things astounded me. Who would ever have thought the word 'kangaroo' ( already borrowed from Australian Aborigines) and used pretty much across the entire world would be changed to 'jingjoe' by a Thai? Or Ah-gnoon for grapes , and mun-falang for potatoes , neither of which were at all native to these lands. These oddities struck me immediately. Why would anyone conceive of doing so? As I struggle along , my tutor will say , "You'll know this word , it is a farang word." But the Thai substitute letters often make the common English word , or even International brand names , almost unintelligable. And what about puting in the vowels that are obviously 'there'? I applaud Wattana Boonjobs suggestions not just because learning Thai is hard for me , but because it may go some way to assist Thailand in advancing its approachability to all those interested in learning more about it. I I think Thais should just go about it as they do in traffic. As noone knows the rules, everyone makes up their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTuner Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Not so good. One of the easiest ways to recognize the loanwords has been the absence of the tone marks and the ์ 's peppered over the ends. Won't change anything until they stop the dubbing around here and get to hear the words like they are supposed to be pronounced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueLeader Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Generally ธ is reserved to express the "th" English phoneme because it is aspirated. It isn't. There's a big difference between 'th', which is a fricative and aspirated 't', which is a plosive. Much of western confusion regarding place name pronunciation (such as Phi Phi and Phuket) stems from the fact that aspirated consonants such as 'p' are sometimes transliterated as 'p' and sometimes as 'ph' (and rarely, as 'hp', but this seems more common in Burma and Northern Thailand). Unaspirated 'p' is also sometimes transliterated as 'p' but sometimes as 'b' or 'bp'. It is very confusing, especially when you consider that tones aren't usually included in the transliteration at all. I tried so hard to learn to read Thai, but I suspect that it's beyond my modest linguistic capabilities. Edited October 2, 2012 by RogueLeader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSixpack Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Really they should do what the Laos have done to their written language -- but if you want support for the idea, never say it that way! Much better solution: what Vietnam did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueLeader Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Really they should do what the Laos have done to their written language -- but if you want support for the idea, never say it that way! Much better solution: what Vietnam did! Yeah. Or considering that the Thai alphabet has a much greater tonal and phonemic range than the Latin, perhaps the rest of the world should adapt to that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaZa9 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. Generally ธ is reserved to express the "th" English phoneme because it is aspirated. But there is also ท and there is also ถ making 't' sounds ..... so it isnt as if we should really have to use a sound the Thais teach as 'dt'. We are also taught that ก makes a swallowed 'g' sound as in the word 'golf'. Since Thai also offers up ค , ข , ฅ and ฃ that ALL make 'k' sounds , I have to wonder as to why places like "Phuket" and "Kamala" all use the 'g' spelling when they clearly are pronounced with 'k' sounds by the Thai locals. Look , Im not raging against the difficulties of learning a new language . We all 'ka-now' ( know , said as 'no') there are oddities in every languages spellings. But when you cant order a simple Coca Cola without saying , "CAWWK!" to be understood , then the reform of at least the borrowed words spelling is a good idea in my opinion... COKE Why you guys listing letters that's been removed from the alphabet long time ago? please dont confuse us guys trying to learn Well , Im told this one ค ( kaw khon ) is obsolete , unless you are talking about 'a man' ...... meh, who ever talks about men? There is also another , 'k' , 'kaw ruk Khang'...ฆ 7. คน คน ระฆัง raH khangM noun a large bell So there is 5 possible 'ku' sounds ....( of course English has two 'k' and 'c' ) .... all of which appear on my brand new Thai Alphabet wall chart! ( oh and there are 3 letters that Ive seen ฦ ฤ ฯ that arent on that chart as well ) 5555 I was taught long ago at Uni that the very reason that French did not maintain its position as the world language it once was , was because it had an Academy and Institutions for its 'protection'. As such , it was prevented by its most learned decision makers from absorbing and modifying at the rapid rates a modern world demanded and was overtaken by that 'mongrel cross breed ' language that didnt care one jot about official spellings and listings as long as the message was conveyed......English. As such , with Thailand having similiar 'protections' , and the added complexities of those 'higher people' in charge being possibly offended by any suggestion that Their System is unworthy , I personally see little chance of any reform happening. So be it , and back to the books.....555 Edited October 2, 2012 by zaZa9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happysanook Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 So now a PC will be properly spelled as Computuuuuh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydebolle Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Welcome to the world hub of languages! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janderton Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Maybe start with "Football" and "Arsenal" first. As far as I can see neither are spelt "Arsenon" or "Footbon"............. ahhhh, BAll, บอล... my son's been scolded by the school teacher because he usually pronounce it as a foreigner do those thai teachers, for them ล (Lo Ling) at the end of a syllable always sounds N, they spell it as N no matter if is a loan word or not: i wonder if they're aware there are loan words in thai vocabulary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthsch Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 1.If the Thais want to write loan-words in Thai-letters, it's their business. But if the Thais want to write the loan words (written in Thai-letters) back to Roman-letters, they have to write them in the original writing. Because the outcome by transliteration from Thai to Roman-letters would not be useful. Look at the word "haidrojen" instaed "hydrogen"! 2. The transcription of the Royal Institute is wrong! It transcribes the word for the Thai currency with "Bat". But the whole world uses "Baht" I made already the first well working transcription of Thai-letters to Roman-letters, with compatible rules. My transcription is readable by native speakers of every language. My work contends more than 120.000 words. If anybody is interested (free), please write me an e-mail. [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTempleman Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Many English words have changed their pronunciation and, on occasion, their meaning over time. The word awful, for example, was spelled aweful, and meant wonderful. We also drop entire words for the easier acronymn or slang word. Words evolve, so the Thais should do as they please with them, to include standardizing them. After all, we do the same evertime Websters publishes a new edition of their dictionary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickFarang Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I listened to a debate about this on Thai radio yesterday. They can change the tone markers all they want and it won't make any difference. People will still say the words the same way as before, and likely keep writing them the same way too. The only real way to learn the proper pronunciation of words like "computer" and "helicopter" is to study the English language. Without speaking the correct consonant or vowel sounds, the words will already be mispronounced. Thai people always seem to stress the last syllable, also in words such as “computer”, “helicopter” and even “Mister”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortenaa Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. ต does sound like a T (well actually dt). Maybe u are confusing it with ด ? But anyway its not just the pronunciation, its also the tone group that the character belongs to. Edited October 2, 2012 by mortenaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajarnyai Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I have yet to read all the comments, but I think you might find this conversation interesting if you haven't already read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vale Tudo Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Only the heading of the article is a head scratcher,, "new Thai spelling for 176 loan words" is bewildering enough to think what da hell they are talking about, and than you find out that they actually going to use non thai spellings for thai words,, surly, must be a simpler way to head an article. I think it's actually about using Thai spelling for English words,not vice versa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vale Tudo Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. ต does sound like a T. Maybe u are confusing it with ด ? I can't even see a difference on my iPad screen and I have 20/20 vision,I can only imagine what it must look like on a smartphone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortenaa Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Well , Im told this one ค ( kaw khon ) is obsolete , unless you are talking about 'a man' ...... meh, who ever talks about men? ค ( khor khwai ) is very much in use ฅ ( khor khon ) is obsolete. Means a person, not a man Edited October 2, 2012 by mortenaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortenaa Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 I can't even see a difference on my iPad screen and I have 20/20 vision,I can only imagine what it must look like on a smartphone! Well, that's challenging, especially in the beginning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loong Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. ต does sound like a T (well actually dt). Maybe u are confusing it with ด ? But anyway its not just the pronunciation, its also the tone group that the character belongs to. I'm not sure what you are saying. You say it sounds like a T, but then say actually Dt. Most of my Missus's family names begin with ต and I know that T will not do. Her sister's name is ติด and I just asked her if she has seen Tid today. She gave me a blank look as she didn't have a clue who I was talking about. Val Tudo The 2 characters xtra large, I hpe that you can see the slight difference now. The first is a sort of cross between D and T, that's why you will often see it transliterated as Dt, the 2nd is the D sound ตด Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortenaa Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. ต does sound like a T (well actually dt). Maybe u are confusing it with ด ? But anyway its not just the pronunciation, its also the tone group that the character belongs to. I'm not sure what you are saying. You say it sounds like a T, but then say actually Dt. Most of my Missus's family names begin with ต and I know that T will not do. Yes, if you start the word with ต , it would sound more like DT. In the middle of a word, might sound like a T. But never like a D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajarnyai Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 1.If the Thais want to write loan-words in Thai-letters, it's their business. I agree. I didn't consider the load-word concept in this conversation..... .......This may be part of why some words are usually pronounced poorly by Thai students (in my teaching experience). This loan-word thing brings up another interesting problem for the government to solve. The article mentioned that they (RI) wanted to help Thai students pronounce words correctly. Ok, now that they're looking at both ends of the transcription, how do you create a writing system that's easy to use for both Thai speakers and English speakers? It appears that the keeping the spirit of the Thai language in mind when working with these writing systems is far more important that making them user friendly. I'm sure that most of the people making these changes, and the language teachers down the line are all intelligent and well educated people, but if they're Thai, they have a Thai language view; and that limits the system's usefulness. English is spoken differently throughout the world, so I know it's not going to be easy to standardize things, but a little more English language thought could help. Language is all about communication, so I hope that the rules will be balanced with the reality of how people see things when written. Close is good enough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loong Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 คอมพิวเตอร์ Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ? It would make much more sense. ต does sound like a T (well actually dt). Maybe u are confusing it with ด ? But anyway its not just the pronunciation, its also the tone group that the character belongs to. I'm not sure what you are saying. You say it sounds like a T, but then say actually Dt. Most of my Missus's family names begin with ต and I know that T will not do. Yes, if you start the word with ต , it would sound more like DT. In the middle of a word, might sound like a T. But never like a D As this conversation was about คอมพิวเตอร์ computer, the ต starts the last syllable and when spoken by a Thai sounds nothing like a T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 It is spelled very well in Thai, if you ask me. Computer or compudter is pretty close and I would never misunderstand it pronounced either way. But it looks pretty strange because English doesn't use dt in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubl Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Kanchana Naksakul, a board member and Thai-language teacher, said yesterday the idea was to make the written words correspond with the way they are pronounced. "Words should be written as pronounced," said Kanchana, who is also president of the Thai Language Teachers' Association. "Those who disagree with the new spellings can ignore them. Many words these days are not written the way suggested by the institute anyway." worts sjud be ritten as pronowsed ? Unkel rubbel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshorts Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Only the heading of the article is a head scratcher,, "new Thai spelling for 176 loan words" is bewildering enough to think what da hell they are talking about, and than you find out that they actually going to use non thai spellings for thai words,, surly, must be a simpler way to head an article. I'm wondering if you are surely surly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khaowong1 Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Maybe start with "Football" and "Arsenal" first. As far as I can see neither are spelt "Arsenon" or "Footbon"............. How about "Football" and "Dallas Cowboys". Why does if have to be about soccer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMagus Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Yep it's probably off topic and I may well get flamed but here goes. Scriptura continua benefits no-one. The Thai language in it's written form IMHO has been purposely made difficult and obscure in order to keep the locus of power (education) with the elite who had much more leisure time than Somchai in the paddy field. Even today, the number of taxi drivers for example who can't read directions written in Thai is high. The Thais will not change this language because, I think they are too caught up in an historical retrospective of a 'golden past'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortenaa Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 As this conversation was about คอมพิวเตอร์ computer, the ต starts the last syllable and when spoken by a Thai sounds nothing like a T. Really.. Hasty generalization .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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