Aging Chiang Mai Expatriates In Trouble

[TheVicar]

I can't think of any Thais I know anywhere in the country who don't have A/C. I have A/C but sometimes don't turn them on for days at a time.

I can assure you that you haven't made a full sampling of the population then.

I know of many villages where no one has air con, I know some that aren't even on the grid.

I am talking about Thai friends or family; people that I know personally, from here all the way down to Hat Yai. Every one has A/C.

I was not making a sampling of the population.

Perhaps the difference is that both of you are consorting with very different groups of Thais? So called "Hi-So" Thais ALL have aircon and ALL use it (lavishly) to proclaim to the world their worth. But most Thais (the "Lo-Sos"--it's Thai termonology, not mine, do NOT, in my experience, have it, except for the 5-10% sliver of the population that is well off.

Edited October 23, 2012 by TheVicar

[elektrified]

I guess we can pontificate about this for ever but one thing really does come to the forefront. That is the matter of health insurance.

Without going into the details of I have xxx in the bank or not as the case may be, it is a fact that the demographic of the farang population coming to live here is swung into the direction of the retired. In fact, encouraged by the not so stringent visa requirements.

That having being said, it is the case that health insurance for that age group is near enough impossible to get.

It's a bit difficult to know who to blame but if the government wants to encourage retirement here, then something workable and affordable should be put into place.

To a certain extent the blame sits on both sides but certainly if promoting Thailand as a retirement destination then it would border on the negligent not to have something set up.

This shouldn't be a problem for the younger of us who can easily get health insurance and work to pay for it, but it should be place for the older.

I'm not saying this should be a requirement but it should be an affordable option.

I hear you. There are 2 major problems with private insurance.

1) the biggest one, is that insurance companies do not want to pay any claims, any claims whatsoever! So they will find ways to exclude coverage (pre existing condition; condition not declared when taking out insurance; inadequate notice to company etc. etc. So to think that private insurance is a way out of anything is simply nonsense. Most people who have such insurance think they are covered; until they have a major problem and find out they are not.

2) why should Thailand set up an insurance scheme for farangs? Does any Western country do this for aliens? Nope. Nor will the Thais. What is nice here regarding medical treatment is that you really don't need insurance because the costs are so low. You can have major surgery (which would cost you your house in America) for a few thousand bucks. But that may change in time and the people this thread is concerned with don't have a few thousand bucks. They have pretty much nada.

I'm sorry but that is complete nonsense. Thai insurance companies are excellent at paying out claims. Much, much easier than anywhere else in the world I have been/lived. I have filed perhaps 12 insurance claims in Thailand (mostly against my child's health insurance policy) and never was a single claim scrutinized too closely or denied.

[elektrified]

I can't think of any Thais I know anywhere in the country who don't have A/C. I have A/C but sometimes don't turn them on for days at a time.

I can assure you that you haven't made a full sampling of the population then.

I know of many villages where no one has air con, I know some that aren't even on the grid.

I am talking about Thai friends or family; people that I know personally, from here all the way down to Hat Yai. Every one has A/C.

I was not making a sampling of the population.

Perhaps the difference is that both of you are consorting with very different groups of Thais. Hi-so Thais ALL have aircon and ALL use it (lavishly) to proclaim to the world their worth. But most Thais do NOT, in my experience, have it, except for the 5-10% sliver of the population that is well off.

LOL, trust me, more than 5-10% of the population has A/C.

Edited October 23, 2012 by elektrified

[Ulysses G.]

I hear you. There are 2 major problems with private insurance.

1) the biggest one, is that insurance companies do not want to pay any claims, any claims whatsoever!

I'm sorry but that is complete nonsense. Thai insurance companies are excellent at paying out claims. Much, much easier than anywhere else in the world I have been/lived. I have filed perhaps 12 insurance claims in Thailand (mostly against my child's health insurance policy) and never was a single claim scrutinized too closely or denied.

That is my experience too. Insurance in Thailand is not expensive and legitimate claims will be honored.

[onthedarkside]

flame removed.

[uptheos]

Yes, but you're forgetting the excessively high cost of used books here too!

Yeah, but you get half back so they're really quite cheap.

[Ulysses G.]

If someone can't afford to buy books, there is always the Raintree library. Chiang Mai is as cheap or as expensive as you want to make it.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[TheVicar]

If someone can't afford to buy books, there is always the Raintree library. Chiang Mai is as cheap or as expensive as you want to make it.

Not exactly correct, because it's not as cheap as "you want to make it." There are limits especially for most farangs who, in my opinion, cannot really adjust to local conditions. Yes, Raintree is a terrific free lending library but if you want to buy used books in Chiang Mai, such books are expensive, especially if you compare the price with those in English speaking countries (maybe aside from Oz). Regular books are also more expensive (less outlets, supplies, readers etc.) but we've been around this subject before.

You're right abou Raintree; it is located just across the Narowat Bridge (almost directly behind the police box) East of the river. Unfortunately, it is only open a few hours a day, usually 10 to 12 and closed on, I think Wednesdays and not open long on Sundays. But they have lots of books, at least 5,000 by my count. Good selection of fiction, guidebooks, cook books, children's lit, and also DVD's and CD's (although the latter two are largely of a religious nature since the Community Church of Chiang Mai pays the rent for Raintree). There is no member fee; everything's free. Unfortunately, no newspapers and little in the way of magazines.

But getting back to the subject of this fascinating thread, I would suspect that most people will need at least B 9,0000 a month (that's about $300) for rent; that's for one person. For a family of 3, probably at least B 15-20,000. Can you do it for less? Yes, if you want to live in a noisy hovel without aircon. You'll need ear plugs because of the crying babies and the dogs.

Surprisingly too, lots of food items are MORE expensive in CM and Thailand than abroad, sometimes substantially so: wine, beer (which is of poor quality too in my humble opinion, especially when compared to beers of neighboring countries), spirits, cheese, butter, bread, flour, eggs, pasta, olive oil, milk, yoghurt, tomato paste, cream, canned fruits, nuts, cereals/grains/beans, and even some fruits (what we consider as oranges, for instance, which are all imported although there is a cheaper local variety; apples; kiwi fruit; grapes; raisins; prunes; pears; apricots; cherries) are higher, sometimes astronomically higher. Most tropical fruits, because they are local, are of course cheaper, including pineapples. But bananas, oddly enough, seem to be pretty high priced, especially if you've lived in the USA which gets cheap ones from Central America. If you eat the local food (and it can be very good) you must realize that it usually has sugar added to it (not good for diabetics or prediabetics), usually has MSG, and usually also is fried in palm oil that has been repeatedly used (palm oil is one of the least healthy of all cooking oils). Most curries have coconut milk in it which is not very healthy either. What is a good buy in CM is the Japanese food (you can find good sushi at roadside stands for B 5 to B 10, depending on size and if it has fish in it, per piece). Greens are also quite cheap in Thailand and you can find some good salad bars even in shopping malls.

Local beef is tough and not very tasty and not very cheap either (stick to chicken or pork and the price of both has increased markedly in the last year or so in Thailand). Imported beef is priced sky high as is lamb and turkey.

Water, of course, you must drink from the bottle and over time that can add up. You can, of course, buy a water purification system but that means a capital output and likely yearly replacement of filters. Sodas in Thailand tend to be sweeter than those in many Western countries, at least to my taste.

So with respect to food, there's quite a lot of latitude but if you like Western food (meaning toast and bacon, cereals for breakfast; pastas and meats and any dairy products) you are going to pay much more than you would in the West.

Pharmacuticals can also be far more expensive here, especially if you are coming from a country with Walmarts and Payless type stores. Aspirin here is more expensive than in the West; vitamins are very high priced as is sunscreen lotion (I paid 2.5 Euros in a DM store for a huge bottle of sunscreen with a high SPF in Heidleberg, Germany; here it would cost 5 times as much). Shaving lotion and razers are also expensive here.

A huge problem if you have a child is the schooling situation. Unless you want to condemn your little one to rote learning and a 3rd world education for life by sending your kid to a Thai school, you'll need to find an international school for her/him. They are expensive, make that very expensive.

Electronic products, cameras, computers, ereaders (you must import these and pay a hefty customs duty) and the like are also costly in Thailand, especially when compared to American prices. Moreover, the "latest" model in Thailand is often a year or more behind countries like Japan, Singapore and the USA. You can, of course, use Amazon and its ilk world-wide but you will pay hefty delivery prices and hefty customs duties. Internet and cable t.v. sevices are also costly (there is a monopoly of one in most cases) and not as good as elsewhere. If you want t.v. for entertainment, you'll need cable because the local channels are unbearable. TV's and cars, both used and new, are far more expensive here than in most Western countries or even Japan. Motorbikes are at least on a par with prices elsewhere and used ones are likely higher priced.

Entertainment also tends to be pricy in CM and Thailand, especially if you want Western music (especially classical music). You can find lots of free concerts in churches and universities in Europe and the USA, not so here; even local, no name groups are charging B 500 (about $16) for tickets at most events. Movie tickets are cheaper in general.

The idea of a "senior discount" is alien in Thailand for anything, entertainment, transport, tourist features etc.

Instead, you will likely be charged MORE because you're a farang (that's official policy) at national parks and attractions.

In sum, CM and Thailand is NOT the cheap place that many out there believe it to be and I say that with 20 plus years of experience here. Those who claim they can live on $300 a month are smoking something. Can you live cheaply in Thailand? If you go local ONLY and that means foregoing lots of pleasures that you will likely miss and need. I've lived on 5 continents and my experience has been that the USA is the cheapest of any major country to live in because it has really, really cheap food prices (especially in California), moderately priced housing (especially outside the mega cities), mega stores that are cheap and almost no import duties anymore on most products. Of course, it has incredibly expensive medical services but if you are retired you get most free or at a reduced cost if you are in the social security system. In Europe, Portugal and Croatia are cheap and beautiful. Both, especially Croatia, have nice climates and beaches.

Edited October 24, 2012 by TheVicar

[uptheos]

Just to clarify one thing.

"The idea of a "senior discount" is alien in Thailand for anything"

Over 60's get cheap cinema tickets at Major Cineplex Airport Plaza, just show ID.

[Ulysses G.]

Those who claim they can live on $300 a month are smoking something. Can you live cheaply in Thailand? If you go local ONLY and that means foregoing lots of pleasures that you will likely miss and need.

I could live very comfortably in Chiang Mai on $1,000 a month without cooking, cleaning or doing laundry myself. I could not come anywhere close to that in California. I understand that Chiang Mai is not as cheap as it used to be, but it is far less expensive than anywhere in the West.

I agree that Thailand might not be the place for retirees who have not lived here before and think that it is going to be a cut-rate Disneyland, but it is not a bad place at all for those of us who know what we are getting and who love living here.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[TommoPhysicist]

Makes me wonder why TheVicar is still here.

Everything more expensive, can't live without western luxury items.

Beggers belief!

[elektrified]

[TheVicar]

Unfortunately, I think this thread has gotten far away from the notion of the original post and that is that there are many farang here, especially aging expats, who are getting in or already are in financial troubles. I think the original poster was spot on in his post and analysis: it's a problem and it will, as he suggests, result in tighter regulations from the Thai government (because otherwise they are burdened with other country's problems).

The latter few posts completely ignore the question of visa runs and their expense (and the physical toll such visa runs make on aged expats). I repeat from a real life example of an Irish aquaintance here, likely in his 70's, who recently confided to me that he doesn't have the B 9,000 needed to make his visa run to Laos! I think he is not atypical and in fact have a French friend elsewhere in Thailand in the same dire straits. It's a problem. Most of the talk above by people who claim to be living here on $300 a month fail to even address the question of the cost of visas and visa runs. And the person who made that ridiculous estimate by his own admission is not even calculating his accomodation costs (which will be the highest cost for almost everyone) because he claims he or his wife own land here (it beggers the question too of how much of an investment made in that land/housing to begin with). He's never said anything either about the education of his child. But if he wants that child to get ahead in life, sending him/her to a cheap Thai school is like condemning the kid to a 3rd world life. Private/international schools here are very, very expensive and $300 a month ain't gonna make even the tuition costs.

Costs are up in CM and in Thailand and already the Thai government has taken some steps to reign in the problem of foreigners here without enough money to support themselves. One such step is to make it harder to open a bank account without a work permit. I think those measures should be intensified and I wouldn't bet that the country doesn't raise the income level for retirement visas as well. Do I like life in Thailand? Yes, but life can be just as good in many other places too. Most of the people living here by the skin of their teeth are here, in my opinion, for one reason and one reason alone and I think everyone knows what this is. Clue: it's a 3 letter word.

[TheVicar]

Makes me wonder why TheVicar is still here.

Everything more expensive, can't live without western luxury items.

Beggers belief!

I'll admit that I cannot in the main live without many Western items but not all of those would be considered "luxury" items in most places (like wine; cheese; bread; flour; dairy products; the internet; cable t.v.; books; music; a good car etc.). Without patting myself on the back, I'll also say I planned and worked long and hard so I could provide for myself in retirement. And wasn't that part of the original posters main point: that lot's of farang here have NOT done such planning and get themselves into trouble as a result of it.

Maybe you should do us a favor now and tell us how you will handle your child's education once he/she gets older? You can, of course, go the cheapo route and send the child to a Thai government school where he/she will be an automaton and will never be able to attend a decent higher school or university. If you send your child to any international school, there goes your budget. $300 a month will not even get your kid in the door for tuition. Have you actually planned for this eventuality?

And that's precisely the kind of crisis/crises/difficult situation I've talked about in other posts. Yes, maybe some people CAN live (but not the huge majority, I would guess less than 10%) as locals do EXCEPT when a crisis hits (a serious accident; a serious health care problem; becoming aged; alcoholism; mental instability etc.) , or for those with children, when your child's education comes up. Suddenly that person is then trapped in a situation where they do not even have enough money to get home in some situations. That is where my Irish friend is now. The Thais get around this by living off of family or in some cases, using farangs as ATM's. But if there is no "family" to live off of, what then? Someone here posted earlier that the embassies know of people who will help such people out. That is complete nonsense. The US Counsulate here requires an individual to make a appointment with them through the internet before even meeting someone. Can you imagine their reaction if you contacted them by email and said something like "Meeting required because I Urgently need rich person to assist down and out farang." They'd laugh! They will not in any way help out or give out such names because this indirectly involves them. Ditto for other countries. That post was ludicrous! But there are enough fools out there to believe such tripe, or the tripe that you can live long-term here on $300 a month!

Edited October 24, 2012 by TheVicar

[TommoPhysicist]

Maybe you should do us a favor now and tell us how you will handle your child's education once he/she gets older? You can, of course, go the cheapo route and send the child to a Thai government school where he/she will be an automaton and will never be able to attend a decent higher school or university. If you send your child to any international school, there goes your budget.

Children go to government school where they learn to fit in with their peers.

I teach them Math, Science and English where they learn to gain advantage over their peers.

(Yes, I am a qualified teacher in the western world)

I'll admit that I cannot in the main live without many Western items but not all of those would be considered "luxury" items in most places (like wine; cheese; bread; flour; dairy products; the internet; cable t.v.; a good car etc.).

Any item not commonly available in Thailand can be considered a 'western luxury item', all such items on your list are clearly luxury, and most of them unhealthy and IMHO undesirable. New cars cheaper in Thailand, Internet cheaper in Thailand, Cable TV cheaper in Thailand than the UK.

Edited October 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[TheVicar]

Maybe you should do us a favor now and tell us how you will handle your child's education once he/she gets older? You can, of course, go the cheapo route and send the child to a Thai government school where he/she will be an automaton and will never be able to attend a decent higher school or university. If you send your child to any international school, there goes your budget.

Children go to government school where they learn to fit in with their peers.

I teach them Math, Science and English where they learn to gain advantage over their peers.

(Yes, I am a qualified teacher in the western world)

I'll admit that I cannot in the main live without many Western items but not all of those would be considered "luxury" items in most places (like wine; cheese; bread; flour; dairy products; the internet; cable t.v.; a good car etc.).

Any item not commonly available in Thailand can be considered a 'western luxury item', all such items on your list are clearly luxury, and most of them unhealthy and IMHO undesirable. New cars cheaper in Thailand, Internet cheaper in Thailand, Cable TV cheaper in Thailand than the UK.

Sorry, but I think you are living in a fantasy land. I hate to pierce your balloons but think of what happens when your child applies to a decent university (and there really are NONE in Thailand). The commentary might go like this: " Let's see now, where did you study? Oh, a Thai school and your dad taught you maths and science and English? We don't see that much here." Without even scratching his/her head, the person looking at your child's application papers will "file" them into the circular waste basket. IIt may seem harsh for me to say this to you but in my opinion you are condemning your son/daughter to a 3rd world life and maybe that child will eventually hate you for it. And it is foolish indeed to think that only Thai state schools teach children how "to fit in with their peers". That statement alone would make any teaching qualifications you have suspect.

I'm sorry if you think that wine, olive oil, pasta etc. are luxury items and "unhealthy". In fact, they are the basis of the Med. diet which most doctors and nutritianists recommend. And is the internet too unhealthy for your kid? Young people who cannot deal with computers and such types of modern communication are lost already and yours will be too. That's sad and all because you want to live cheaply. By my accounting, the internet/cable t.v. are going to take up almost 1/3 of your $300 budget (and that's not counting outlay for computers/routers/upgrades etc.. It's not enough money for one person let alone 3. Please wake up. I think you are exactly the kind of person the original poster warned about.

Let me ask one final question of you. Have you followed this thread here so intensely because, perhaps subliminally you are indeed worried about the future? If you are a qualified teacher, I suggest you find work where you can make some good savings for the future. If you teach at a private school here, I think most will allow your child free tuition. Look into it, please. But If you stay and work here, I doubt you can qualify for retirement pensions in the UK but I'm not sure of that. In any event, Good luck.

Edited October 24, 2012 by TheVicar

[TwoDogz]

Is it true that a lot of morbidly obese fat arsed foreigeners are moving to CM for the cooler weather as they cannot handle the heat and sweat rashes anymore?

[canuckamuck]

My attention span is way to short for many of the posts here. Can anyone tell me if I missed anything?

[deeks]

I know of one group that on their website are claiming that it`s possible to retire in Thailand on $550 per month. Total rubbish.

Hmmmm, I seem to have retired to Thailand on $300 a month, have a car, m/c, big house, family and babies. Maybe I'm one of those guys with dementia, living in the 'impossible' dream.

And all the Thais families that live around me seem to do OK on less than $200 a month, they must be dreaming too.

Have you decided whether you're going to eat or fill up the car with petrol this month Tommo?

Yeah that's funny. I have a 3 year old child. It costs me minimum 4K THB (US $125.00) a month to feed him - that's of course without water or any Sesto ice cream which he has quite a craving for! I spend about 7,800 THB (US $255.00) a month on gas for the car and motorcycle. (Most working Thai families I know with one car and one m/c who travel across town spend at least that on gas - usually more). So just there I am already about 25% over your budget before I even eat or use a drop of water or pay for water, electricity, insurance and on and on!

Sorry Tomo, most of your posts are good but US $300 (which I assume you mean) might have been possible 20 years ago - for one person.

You spend 8000 baht a month on petrol. try 900k for just under 2000B in a Dmax 3ltr.

[mamborobert]

My attention span is way to short for many of the posts here. Can anyone tell me if I missed anything?

Its getting better I think we are nearly at Monty Python's Yorkshire Miners sketch......

[TheVicar]

Maybe you should do us a favor now and tell us how you will handle your child's education once he/she gets older? You can, of course, go the cheapo route and send the child to a Thai government school where he/she will be an automaton and will never be able to attend a decent higher school or university. If you send your child to any international school, there goes your budget.

Children go to government school where they learn to fit in with their peers.

I teach them Math, Science and English where they learn to gain advantage over their peers.

(Yes, I am a qualified teacher in the western world)

I'll admit that I cannot in the main live without many Western items but not all of those would be considered "luxury" items in most places (like wine; cheese; bread; flour; dairy products; the internet; cable t.v.; a good car etc.).

Any item not commonly available in Thailand can be considered a 'western luxury item', all such items on your list are clearly luxury, and most of them unhealthy and IMHO undesirable. New cars cheaper in Thailand, Internet cheaper in Thailand, Cable TV cheaper in Thailand than the UK.

Tomo,

I'm sorry if I seemed unduely harsh in my last post. I think you are making a mistake with this self-education/enrollment in a Thai school thing. Especially on the budget you mentioned. My experience (and I have a lifetime experience of some 50 years in and around universities, as a student, as a professor, as head of departments etc. in many countries including your own) is this: universities when they are admitting students (and some day I'm sure you hope your son/daughter applies for higher education) look for hard statistics, "facts," schools' reputation etc. They look at the location of the school where the applicant comes from, they have data on those schools and countries (and if they don't, forget it!) and they care about "name" schools. Children, even bright ones, from largely family-self taught situations are frowned upon.

Be that good or not, that is the way the higher educational world looks at things. So my advice to you is: if you have educational qualifications, and it would seem to be they are in the math/sciences area which is a good area to find jobs in, get a good paying job somewhere. If you are young enough, that can be at an international school here because then they will allow your child to attend free. But you likely need to hook into your home country's (I think you've mentioned that is the U.K.) retirement system eventually. Maybe living here off the land, so to speak, is homey and settles your spirit; but in the long run, it won't pay the bills that will mount up for a family of 3.

If you still persist in your thinking, and I hope you don't, then make sure your child gets a deep and broad education in various languages and travels a lot. Obviously, the child will learn and know Thai and English. He/she will need more. Chinese would be the best. French or Spanish are also good as would be German or Japanese. But the future will be a Chinese future and that means that language, and all its dialects, will be very important. If I can be of any more help in terms of advice, send me a personal message. I wish you and your family the best.

Edited October 24, 2012 by TheVicar

[canuckamuck]

My attention span is way to short for many of the posts here. Can anyone tell me if I missed anything?

Its getting better I think we are nearly at Monty Python's Yorkshire Miners sketch......

So I missed the silly walks bit, serves me right.

[uptheos]

My attention span is way to short for many of the posts here. Can anyone tell me if I missed anything?

Its getting better I think we are nearly at Monty Python's Yorkshire Miners sketch......

So I missed the silly walks bit, serves me right.

Never mind, who'd a thought thirty years ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Chateau de Chassilier wine?

[elektrified]

Maybe you should do us a favor now and tell us how you will handle your child's education once he/she gets older? You can, of course, go the cheapo route and send the child to a Thai government school where he/she will be an automaton and will never be able to attend a decent higher school or university. If you send your child to any international school, there goes your budget.

Children go to government school where they learn to fit in with their peers.

I teach them Math, Science and English where they learn to gain advantage over their peers.

(Yes, I am a qualified teacher in the western world)

I'll admit that I cannot in the main live without many Western items but not all of those would be considered "luxury" items in most places (like wine; cheese; bread; flour; dairy products; the internet; cable t.v.; a good car etc.).

Any item not commonly available in Thailand can be considered a 'western luxury item', all such items on your list are clearly luxury, and most of them unhealthy and IMHO undesirable. New cars cheaper in Thailand, Internet cheaper in Thailand, Cable TV cheaper in Thailand than the UK.

Bread is a Western luxury item and not commonly available???

I don't know about the U.K. as I have never lived there but cable TV and Internet is indeed cheaper in other European countries than it is here.

[TommoPhysicist]

I don't know about the U.K. as I have never lived there but cable TV and Internet is indeed cheaper in other European countries than it is here.

WeTV is about 400bht a month ...... what cable TV can you get in Europe cheaper than that?

Hang on I'm behind the times BT Internet and TV .... 18UKP/month plus 11UKP line rental +20% VAT = 1,800bht/month Vs 1,000bht/month for the Thai internet + WeTV.

Edited October 24, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[endure]

2000bt a month in the UK buys me 30Mbs internet with unlimited downloads, 100+ TV channels and a phone line.

[TommoPhysicist]

2000bt a month in the UK buys me 30Mbs internet with unlimited downloads, 100+ TV channels and a phone line.

2x the Thai price.

[Mapguy]

Sorry to see the conversation now focusing on price shopping!

TommoPhysicist, I admire your persistence but wonder (as others have suggested) that your solutions for living in Thailand are not particularly realistic for most people.

How do you take so much time on the internet away from weeding your garden ?!

I am curious about your qualifications as a teacher. What are they?

Edited October 24, 2012 by Mapguy

[Mapguy]

Is it true that a lot of morbidly obese fat arsed foreigeners are moving to CM for the cooler weather as they cannot handle the heat and sweat rashes anymore?

[Mapguy]

If someone can't afford to buy books, there is always the Raintree library. Chiang Mai is as cheap or as expensive as you want to make it.

Not exactly correct, because it's not as cheap as "you want to make it." There are limits especially for most farangs who, in my opinion, cannot really adjust to local conditions. Yes, Raintree is a terrific free lending library but if you want to buy used books in Chiang Mai, such books are expensive, especially if you compare the price with those in English speaking countries (maybe aside from Oz). Regular books are also more expensive (less outlets, supplies, readers etc.) but we've been around this subject before.

You're right abou Raintree; it is located just across the Narowat Bridge (almost directly behind the police box) East of the river. Unfortunately, it is only open a few hours a day, usually 10 to 12 and closed on, I think Wednesdays and not open long on Sundays. But they have lots of books, at least 5,000 by my count. Good selection of fiction, guidebooks, cook books, children's lit, and also DVD's and CD's (although the latter two are largely of a religious nature since the Community Church of Chiang Mai pays the rent for Raintree). There is no member fee; everything's free. Unfortunately, no newspapers and little in the way of magazines.

But getting back to the subject of this fascinating thread, I would suspect that most people will need at least B 9,0000 a month (that's about $300) for rent; that's for one person. For a family of 3, probably at least B 15-20,000. Can you do it for less? Yes, if you want to live in a noisy hovel without aircon. You'll need ear plugs because of the crying babies and the dogs.

Surprisingly too, lots of food items are MORE expensive in CM and Thailand than abroad, sometimes substantially so: wine, beer (which is of poor quality too in my humble opinion, especially when compared to beers of neighboring countries), spirits, cheese, butter, bread, flour, eggs, pasta, olive oil, milk, yoghurt, tomato paste, cream, canned fruits, nuts, cereals/grains/beans, and even some fruits (what we consider as oranges, for instance, which are all imported although there is a cheaper local variety; apples; kiwi fruit; grapes; raisins; prunes; pears; apricots; cherries) are higher, sometimes astronomically higher. Most tropical fruits, because they are local, are of course cheaper, including pineapples. But bananas, oddly enough, seem to be pretty high priced, especially if you've lived in the USA which gets cheap ones from Central America. If you eat the local food (and it can be very good) you must realize that it usually has sugar added to it (not good for diabetics or prediabetics), usually has MSG, and usually also is fried in palm oil that has been repeatedly used (palm oil is one of the least healthy of all cooking oils). Most curries have coconut milk in it which is not very healthy either. What is a good buy in CM is the Japanese food (you can find good sushi at roadside stands for B 5 to B 10, depending on size and if it has fish in it, per piece). Greens are also quite cheap in Thailand and you can find some good salad bars even in shopping malls.

Local beef is tough and not very tasty and not very cheap either (stick to chicken or pork and the price of both has increased markedly in the last year or so in Thailand). Imported beef is priced sky high as is lamb and turkey.

Water, of course, you must drink from the bottle and over time that can add up. You can, of course, buy a water purification system but that means a capital output and likely yearly replacement of filters. Sodas in Thailand tend to be sweeter than those in many Western countries, at least to my taste.

So with respect to food, there's quite a lot of latitude but if you like Western food (meaning toast and bacon, cereals for breakfast; pastas and meats and any dairy products) you are going to pay much more than you would in the West.

Pharmacuticals can also be far more expensive here, especially if you are coming from a country with Walmarts and Payless type stores. Aspirin here is more expensive than in the West; vitamins are very high priced as is sunscreen lotion (I paid 2.5 Euros in a DM store for a huge bottle of sunscreen with a high SPF in Heidleberg, Germany; here it would cost 5 times as much). Shaving lotion and razers are also expensive here.

A huge problem if you have a child is the schooling situation. Unless you want to condemn your little one to rote learning and a 3rd world education for life by sending your kid to a Thai school, you'll need to find an international school for her/him. They are expensive, make that very expensive.

Electronic products, cameras, computers, ereaders (you must import these and pay a hefty customs duty) and the like are also costly in Thailand, especially when compared to American prices. Moreover, the "latest" model in Thailand is often a year or more behind countries like Japan, Singapore and the USA. You can, of course, use Amazon and its ilk world-wide but you will pay hefty delivery prices and hefty customs duties. Internet and cable t.v. sevices are also costly (there is a monopoly of one in most cases) and not as good as elsewhere. If you want t.v. for entertainment, you'll need cable because the local channels are unbearable. TV's and cars, both used and new, are far more expensive here than in most Western countries or even Japan. Motorbikes are at least on a par with prices elsewhere and used ones are likely higher priced.

Entertainment also tends to be pricy in CM and Thailand, especially if you want Western music (especially classical music). You can find lots of free concerts in churches and universities in Europe and the USA, not so here; even local, no name groups are charging B 500 (about $16) for tickets at most events. Movie tickets are cheaper in general.

The idea of a "senior discount" is alien in Thailand for anything, entertainment, transport, tourist features etc.

Instead, you will likely be charged MORE because you're a farang (that's official policy) at national parks and attractions.

In sum, CM and Thailand is NOT the cheap place that many out there believe it to be and I say that with 20 plus years of experience here. Those who claim they can live on $300 a month are smoking something. Can you live cheaply in Thailand? If you go local ONLY and that means foregoing lots of pleasures that you will likely miss and need. I've lived on 5 continents and my experience has been that the USA is the cheapest of any major country to live in because it has really, really cheap food prices (especially in California), moderately priced housing (especially outside the mega cities), mega stores that are cheap and almost no import duties anymore on most products. Of course, it has incredibly expensive medical services but if you are retired you get most free or at a reduced cost if you are in the social security system. In Europe, Portugal and Croatia are cheap and beautiful. Both, especially Croatia, have nice climates and beaches.

I agree with The Vicar's major points, and I agree with almost all (not all) of his minor points about prices. The bottom line: Depending on your expectations and lifestyle, Chiang Mai can indeed be a relatively expensive (not inexpensive) place to live. Which makes me wonder about the hype about Chiang Mai as some sort of ultimate retirement place. The real answer: Maybe, but it depends upon your habits and expectations. Unfortunately, people are being caught in a very, very nasty personal financial trap. Let them die on the pavement? Bury them in potter's field? Help them get on the plane back home before immigration does it? And don't always bet on laissez-faire Thai authority. Many foreigners are not considered to be "good guests."