Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[Rob8891]

Okay......will do.

I'm now preparing the post I promised earlier, I'll be quiet for a couple of hours.

Thank God.... It's taken best part of 24 hours to get through this thread. I need my supper... and maybe a stiff dram or three

[endure]

One last time...

[Rob8891]

One last time...

I apologise publicly if that contravened your warning. That was not my intention.

[smokie36]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

[MAJIC]

I see there is no end in sight to the 'Scottish question'.

TBH if I was a Scot I'd probably want independence too. As an Englishman I'd like to see independence for all the home nations as we're all under the Euro umbrella now and likely to stay that way until the Germans have had enough.

Britain was great once but those days and the spirit that went with it is sadly gone..... in spite of the Our Lord Coe's olympian efforts this summer.

I got a pm from someone earlier that said the people having a go at me on this thread must be from London or the South East.

There's a North / South divide in England, never mind Scotland. There's an arrogance that flows through the veins of many Londoners that get's the hackles up of everyone above the Watford Gap.

There is a stupid assumption that Scots are anti-English, we are far from it. Yes there can be leg pulling, yes it can sometimes go too far, and yes we have some immature nutters on both sides that take things to a level that horrifies all of us.

That is not the experience of the majority though, there are now 400,000 English people living in Scotland and they are very welcome. Many of these English residents have declared that they too will vote for Independence. Why? Because by living here they can see the reality of political life in the UK, Westminster has gathered too much power unto itself for too long, and even now grudgingly gives a little back.

MAJIC earlier made a high offensive comment about England supporting Scotland for 300 years.........it's this type of disgraceful hyperbole that grates against many people.

Simply put.......we Scots fought and died alongside the English for centuries, and the Welsh, and the Irish. Our Boys are still dying alongside our English compatriots in Afghanistan. Scotland has held it's own and much more over the centuries we have been allied with England and the other nations of the United Kingdom, in fact we have punched well, well above our weight.

However some people are far too bigoted to understand that, and far too ignorant to study history. While we have a cabal, and it looks like a growing cabal, of people of that ilk, entering the discourse, and all we will generate is heat and noise.

This thread is a prime example......it's brain damage.

.

To your 400,000 English living in Scotland, by comparison there are 795,000 Scots living in England,and no doubt after all the Ballyhoo has been dealt with,they will also be welcome,to live in England.

And Blether please don't try and make my remark concerning supporting Scotland into something other than: living together and being supportive,of.

Be accurate in your use of the English language then eh?

ps The English make up about 8% of our population, the Scots make up about 1.5% of the population of England.

The word Supporting can be taken at least 2 ways,you chose the negative side.

[theblether]

Right......as promised here's the background to the current Referendum, I need to cover a lot of ground quickly however I also need to do justice to the subject too. This may be one of the longest posts you will ever read on Thaivisa......so here goes.

The SNP were founded before WW2, the first SNP MP Dr Robert McIntyre was elected in my home borough of Motherwell and Wishaw in April 1945, there was a song and dance at Westminster regarding his eligibility to take his seat, but in the end he was sworn in as an MP. You could say the story of the battle for Independence started with Doctor McIntyre.

Unfortunately he lost his seat at the next election a few months later and the SNP had no representation at Westminster until 1967 when Winnie Ewing won the Hamilton By Election, as a result of that result Harold Wilson, the British Prime Minister and Labour Party leader, established the Kilbrandon Commission to investigate the possibility of founding a Scottish Assembly.

The Labour Party let the genie out of the bottle.

In 1974 the SNP produced excellent results in the Westminster elections, on the back of optimism in the country after the discovery of oil in Scottish waters, the Labour Party had won a slim majority after the second General election of that year and that set in train a period of turmoil in British politics.

Union activity was at it's highest, and the UK entered into years of Industrial Action, any Brits old enough to remember this period will remember how painful it was for many people, Harold Wilson stood down from office in 1976, and that same year the UK was forced to go grovelling to the IMF for a handout as we were unable to meet our obligations.

The background to this in Scotland was that the bill to devolve power to a Scottish Assembly was progressing through Parliament, and everything was going swimmingly until a Labour Party grandee who was opposed to the Referendum and Devolution came up with the bright idea that the Scotland Act of 1978 would include a clause that 40% of the total electorate would have to vote yes for the Referendum result to pass.

To my knowledge, that type of clause has never been imposed on the British electorate or Scottish electorate before, and quite frankly it was an undemocratic and underhand move which backfired on the Labour Party. The SNP were furious, and as the Labour Party weakened due to the Winter of Discontent, ( an infamous period of Industrial Action where the streets were full of rubbish and we had to store our dead in chill lorries ) the atmosphere at Westminster was poisonous.

The Referendum was held on March 1st 1979, and the result was a Yes vote, however as the 40% threshold had not been met the result was discarded. It's important to point out that the Conservative Party were against Devolution and Margaret Thatcher made unspecified promises to offer an improved deal for Scotland if the Referendum failed. However when she came to power she did nothing but brutalize our industry.

At Westminster, the SNP were determined to enact revenge upon the Labour Party and they proposed a Vote of No Confidence in the Labour government, after some Westminster shenanigans the Conservative Party put down the same motion and the SNP among others voted against the Labour Party.

Well.......as a result of that vote, the Labour Party were forced to call a General Election, which the Conservatives duly won.

Here's where all hell broke loose in Scotland........the Labour Party decided that it was a clever idea to brand the SNP Tartan Tories as they had voted against them, and that was a mantra from the Labour Party all the way through the 80's and into the 90's.

Bullsh*t.......the Labour Party had created the Scotland Act and deliberately poisoned the Well by adding the 40% rule, plenty of Scots could see this and it hardened the attitude of many of us, including me, against these anti-democrat liars and cheats.

The problem for us all though was no matter how much internal strife was taking place in Scottish politics, it was nothing to the Tsunami of hated policies imposed upon us by Margaret Thatcher. Yes, any logical man could see that the Industrial strife was a seriously negative force in our lives, however the way Thatcher went about her business was brutal. Thatcher began the common enemy in Scotland and it culminated in her using Scotland as a guinea pig for her detested Poll Tax policy, which she introduced a whole year before the rest of the UK. Major mistake, the Scots took it personal that we were being singled out early and I think even our English neighbours will remember the bitterness and furore that accompanied the introduction of the Poll Tax down there. Magnify that hatred and discontent several times in Scotland and you can start to understand why the Tories are a spent force in Scotland.

Not only had Thatcher failed to live up to her promises, she had singled out Scotland for hated policies. On top of that, when the economic recovery came to the UK during the Lawson Boom years, it was exaggerated in it's effect in England, the boom never truly spread to Scotland.

There was a terrible sense of dislocation between The Scots and the English, especially South East England, as many of the traditional industrial areas of England suffered a serious decline in their living standards and job prospects too.

Back to Scottish politics, the longer that the Conservatives retained power, the more it dawned on the Labour Party that they had shot themselves in the foot by imposing the 40% limit. If they hadn't done so they would have had an Assembly with some powers in Scotland to mount an attack on the Tories during these years.

At this time it became the settled will of the Scottish Labour Party that when they came back to power, Devolution would be top of the agenda. The atmosphere between the SNP and Labour was poisonous, and the atmosphere between both and the Tories was worse. The Tories started to slip off the face of the electoral map in Scotland and the SNP started to emerge as the second largest voting block in Scotland however!!!

The First Past The Post electoral system skewed the Westminster results badly and a lot of we SNP supporters despaired of our chances of ever getting anywhere. After Labour won the 1997 election there was a rush to bring forward the Devolution Referendum under the stewardship of Donald Dewar.

Tony Blair was not convinced it was the right move however the Scottish Labour Party wanted to feast on the success of the General Election and he was powerless to stop them. Why was Tony Blair not convinced?.........here's the answer to the Tam Dalyell question I posed earlier.......

http://blogs.telegra...r-rather-later/

Tam Dalyell knew that Devolution was a "Motorway to Independence with No Exits"...............Harold Wilson had let the Genie out of the bottle in 1969.......Donald Dewar had guaranteed the Genie a palace to roost in by forcing through this Devolution Referendum. Here's the amusing part for we Snp supporters.

Donald Dewar believed that the formation of the Devolved Assembly would kill the SNP party stone dead. Forgive me for a moment........

Idiot..........Tam Dalyell was right, the Devolved Assembly brought us into a new set of circumstances where the Labour Party and SNP would be the biggest players in Scotland.

Then comes along our hero, Mr Jack McConnell, who decided in his role as First Minister to change the voting system in Scotland to part First Past The Post, and part Proportional Representation. His thinking was twofold, one thought was it was only fair and more democratic to represent the views of the people ( true ) and also that it would consign the Scottish Assembly to being a constant coalition government, where the majority of the MSP's would be Unionist, and hence would bottle up the SNP in permanent Opposition.......you'll need to forgive me again.....

In 2007 the SNP were elected as the biggest single party in the Scottish Assembly, it was the first time in half a century that the Labour Party had been defeated in a Scottish election of any sort, however the SNP were a minority government and were unable to push through any policies in regards to Independence. Fine, but at long last we SNP supporters were starting to see light at the end of the tunnel.

The Scottish Labour Party were convinced that they would romp last years Holyrood election, and the opinion polls up till the last month before the election validated that belief, however in an act of political suicide, their First Minister candidate embarrassed himself by hiding in a Sandwich shop to escape demonstrators, and that political genius Alex Salmond turned on the Party Machine, and from the jaws of defeat he snatched a memorable and unbelievable victory, he formed a MAJORITY government in Holyrood.

Now come the Tories, the anti-Christ of Scottish politics, and poor little David Cameron. He had the right to refuse a Referendum on Scottish Independence as he could easily have argued that the popular vote was a Unionist vote, however he knew he would be nailed to the Cross in Scotland if he had denied the Referendum. He had a choice? Yes.......he could have said no, but his choice was between death by hanging or death by beheading. The nd result is just the same.

So now he had to agree to a Referendum, a Referendum that he knew was not of his making, he had been left holding the baby after dreadful misjudgements by the Labour Party.

The idea of a second question came from the Labour Party, they thought it would dilute the Yes vote, and slay the SNP Independence campaign. AS knew he had to look reasonable, and he stated that he was "open minded" on the issue of a second question. The Tories didn't want to touch it with a barge pole, the Labour Party realized that they had backed themselves into a corner again, and the Second Question issue floated about in the ether for over a year, dogging the Unionists, and amusing we Nationalists.

Why?

Our Holy Grail has always been a Yes / No Independence Referendum. We have achieved our Holy Grail. This is an act of political genius by Alex Salmond. Genius.

Anyway, Once again, David Cameron had walked straight into the trap of promising extra unspecified powers to Scotland if we voted no to Independence, shades of 1979? You all know the old adage " Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

David Cameron has made a rod for his own back, he will be harangued before the Referendum to outline the extra powers he is going to grant to the Scottish Parliament. This, while he is trying to hold together an ever fractious Coalition Government in Westminster, that man is in for a nightmare two years. he will not get away with promising nothing, if he does not outline his plans he will play straight into SNP hands, if he does outline his plans, then he will do what Tam Dalyell predicted and feared, he will feed the Holyrood dragon with ever more burgeoning powers......and the more it gets, the more it wants.

This bitter debate we have had about the EU during this thread......once again AS has played Cameron like a drum. It turns out, ( as if Salomd never knew eh? ) that only the UK government can ask for legal guidance from the EU as to the implications and status of Scotland in the event of a Yes vote.

David Cameron has refused to ask the question.......that's because he knows the answer. He knows there is no mechanism to strip Scots of EU citizenship, and he knows that the EU will not refuse Scotland entry. Earlier I addressed the mechanics of the Referendum, if Scotland votes yes, it will allow two things to happen......it will allow the SNP to go into negotiation with the Westminster Government in regards to the Terms of Settlement, and allow the SNP to start the process of applying to the EU for membership.

Here's the annoying thing for all you Unionists out there, the SNP will do the best deal or no deal, the financial markets will bring immense pressure on to the UK government to settle quickly as the markets detest uncertainty. here's the other annoying thing, there will be a period of years between the Referendum and Independence day, at least two years. All those people who are predicting problems with EU membership forget that the EU is a democratically based organization, and they will respect the Will of the Scottish people as our country will be born of Democracy, not of War.

The idea that the EU will give membership to countries such as Croatia and Serbia but not Scotland points out how foolish, indeed rank stupidity, the concept of non membership would be. Give up that argument, refusal of membership will never happen. As for all the scare stories, I predict the EU will accelerate the negotiations so that EU membership will coincide with Independence Day, it's in the interest of the EU to demonstrate to the World that democracy in Europe is alive and well, and peaceful settlements are preferred. This is the founding credo of the EU.

As for the scare stories from the EU politicians, Herman Van Rompuy is playing to a domestic audience when he talks about the day of separatism is in the past, why? there is a strong Nationalist sentiment by the Flemish people in Belgium, his home country. If they see Scotland succeed in Independence they will be encouraged to go along the same route too.

It's telling in the Youtube clip that 7x7 posted earlier that Van Rompuy did not mention Scotland by name when he answered the question, he knows to do so would be political suicide. The Spanish are also playing to a domestic audience when they say that there will be problems allowing Scotland to join the EU, why? because the Pro-Basque Independence party won the recent election and the Spaniards are terrified that Scotland will provide a precedent which will result in the break up of Spain.

It has been confirmed that Van Rompuy will not campaign against Scottish Independence, and you will find very little outside interference in the Scottish democratic process prior to the election. After the election the gloves are off, you will see foreign governments immediately interacting with the Scottish government. Alex Salmond has an excellent relationship with the Chinese government and he has already helped to grow Scottish exports to China massively, with scope for a lot more. I reckon we will see the US government swoop in and offer Salmond a deal he cannot refuse in regards to Faslane, but that is mere speculation on my part. What you will see however is a massive growth of Scottish business and Consular offices in the US and elsewhere, and use of shared facilities with the UK government in existing locations.

You will find a Scottish Office within the BKK Embassy for example, once again people need to realize that the UK owns nothing, it's shared among all citizens, and you will find in many areas agreement will be easy to reach. The negotiations will be straightforward in many regards, and many parts of the separation will be soft landings.

The areas of disagreement will on subjects such as the National Debt, share of the off shore assets etc etc however nobody said the separation would not come with difficult issues attached.

Let's imagine for a moment that Scotland says no........this is a No Lose Referendum for the SNP.......many legal issues will have to be clarified in the process of this campaign, Cameron will have to request the EU guidance that has been offered or risk looking petty and vindictive, Cameron will have to transfer more power to Scotland, and Cameron will have to give Scotland a better deal.

But it won't be enough, there will always be an appetite for more............I'll leave this post for now with the following two quotes......

Tam Dalyell......... "devolution would put Scotland on a motorway to independence and that it would be a motorway with no exits."

Robert de Bruce...."if at first you don't succeed, try, try again".

This road will end in victory, of that you can be assured.

Edited November 8, 2012 by theblether

[Scott]

Numerous posts and replies have been deleted. You are expected to follow the rules and to post in a civil manner. If you cannot address the topic, please don't post. If you feel like you must address the poster, you will receive a suspension. The thread is about a topic; it is not about other posters.

Also, please do not refer back to previous posts by number. When posts are deleted, the posts get renumber and the one you are referring to may have a different number.

Independence and freedom may happen, but not on this thread and not at this time.

[nontabury]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

[nontabury]

The blether Go get the graph for the average turnout at elections since 1960.

Better still here is the latest figures,thou I'm sure they will not be acceptable to you,as they prove that ONCE again you are completely wrong, you seem to accept only what your narrow mind allows you to accept.

Throughout this thread I've told you many times that I'm all for Scottish separation,but now your making me feel sorry for the Scottish people who are being MIS led by the likes of you and AS.

http://www.ipsos-mor...px?oltemid=2613

The % of the voters increases incrementally with each age group,thus in the 24 age group,44% voted.

In the 65yr age group 76% voted.

This leads me to the obvious conclusion that the old basta*d codgers are are not to lazy to vote.

Edited November 9, 2012 by nontabury

[ScotsExpat]

Right......as promised here's the background to the current Referendum, I need to cover a lot of ground quickly however I also need to do justice to the subject too. This may be one of the longest posts you will ever read on Thaivisa......so here goes.<snip>

Outstanding, theblether...

As concise as you could have made it, with the majority of the major talking points addressed...

[smokie36]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

This all dates back to the beginning of the Common Market. The Common Fisheries Policy was a joke.

Go read Con O'Neil's comments on that. Then you will be a little bit wiser nontabury.

Edited November 9, 2012 by smokie36

[Rob8891]

BBC News this morning.... Wee Eck has submitted his proposal for the wording of the referendum question.... Another step nearer!

[bigbamboo]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

This all dates back to the beginning of the Common Market. The Common Fisheries Policy was a joke.

Go read Con O'Neil's comments on that. Then you will be a little bit wiser nontabury.

An island packed with coal and surrounded by fish and protected by the English Channel.

How did it all go so wrong?

Edited November 9, 2012 by bigbamboo

[7by7]

Right......as promised here's the background to the current Referendum, I need to cover a lot of ground quickly however I also need to do justice to the subject too. This may be one of the longest posts you will ever read on Thaivisa......so here goes.<snip>

Outstanding, theblether...

As concise as you could have made it, with the majority of the major talking points addressed...

But none of the difficult questions answered; what a surprise:not.

[nontabury]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

This all dates back to the beginning of the Common Market. The Common Fisheries Policy was a joke.

Go read Con O'Neil's comments on that. Then you will be a little bit wiser nontabury.

His political master was a Scotsman,who agreed to the destruction of the British fishing fleet, FACT.

Interesting to read that the policy of the then EEC and its founding members, were adamant that Britain as a new applicant would have to accept the existing rules,basically take it or leave it. This is exactly what Scotland will come up against. They can tell the EU what they would like as a new member,but it is the existing member who will lay down the rules and most importantly the cost,there will certainly be no rebate,such as the one now granted to the UK. I think the SNP

or will it then be, the Scotish Labour party will HAVE to accept some unpalatable terms in order to gain membership of this club.

Edited November 9, 2012 by nontabury

[theblether]

Thanks for the kind words ( for those that sent me kind words )

@nontabury.......I know the older people are more likely to vote, my issue is with the amount of people who are not engaging with the democratic process, not voting at all. It's been an issue for years in the UK, we're now seeing shockingly low turnout. So I'll give you your point about the older being more liable to vote by percentage, while my point that too many people are not voting at all is equally valid.

@7x7.................I promised a post about the background to the Referendum, there are people reading the thread, including foreign nationals, that may not have an idea of what the background is.

As for not answering the difficult questions.........we don't have to answer the difficult questions just now.

A week is a long time in politics, two years is an eternity

The real campaign for Independence will kick off in Spring 2014, answers will cometh then Sir, answers will cometh then.

Edited November 9, 2012 by theblether

[Rob8891]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

Unfortunately you overlook the fact that that was as a UK Government minister, not as a Scottish Government minister, so I cannot see any relevance to your post, other than nit-picking. Sorry!

[theblether]

Re this ongoing argument about sources, I have pointed out already that the Guardian newspaper is in the pocket of the Unionist British Labour Party. They have a left wing, socialist Unionist agenda.

Again, for any foreign nationals reading this topic, the Guardian is as partisan on behalf of the Labour Party as Fox News is for the Republicans.

So please forgive me if I choose to ignore any partisan points made by the Guardian in the links, especially when the links undo themselves.

The link was sent to demonstrate that Scotland would not get access to the EU, the Youtube clip was a prime example of political sophistry. Van Rompuy DID NOT mention Scotland in the answer, and it was confirmed that Van Rompuy WILL NOT CAMPAIGN against Scottish Independence.

The Unionists cannot stand the bare and essential fact:

We have achieved our Holy Grail, we will have a Yes / No Referendum on Scottish Independence.

I call that an act of political genius, and that genius is Alex Salmond.

[transam]

Re this ongoing argument about sources, I have pointed out already that the Guardian newspaper is in the pocket of the Unionist British Labour Party. They have a left wing, socialist Unionist agenda.

Again, for any foreign nationals reading this topic, the Guardian is as partisan on behalf of the Labour Party as Fox News is for the Republicans.

So please forgive me if I choose to ignore any partisan points made by the Guardian in the links, especially when the links undo themselves.

The link was sent to demonstrate that Scotland would not get access to the EU, the Youtube clip was a prime example of political sophistry. Van Rompuy DID NOT mention Scotland in the answer, and it was confirmed that Van Rompuy WILL NOT CAMPAIGN against Scottish Independence.

The Unionists cannot stand the bare and essential fact:

We have achieved our Holy Grail, we will have a Yes / No Referendum on Scottish Independence.

I call that an act of political genius, and that genius is Alex Salmond.

Can't agree with you on this one 'ol chum.

[theblether]

That's fine Transam, we can agree to disagree like gentlemen

The democratic process will now take place and there will be plenty, and I mean plenty, of disagreements over the next couple of years.

[theblether]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

This all dates back to the beginning of the Common Market. The Common Fisheries Policy was a joke.

Go read Con O'Neil's comments on that. Then you will be a little bit wiser nontabury.

An island packed with coal and surrounded by fish and protected by the English Channel.

How did it all go so wrong?

World War 2 is the answer to your question.

[bigbamboo]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

Unfortunately you overlook the fact that that was as a UK Government minister, not as a Scottish Government minister, so I cannot see any relevance to your post, other than nit-picking. Sorry!

When a Scot does well he's a Scot but when he screws up he's British.

Typical........!

[smokie36]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

Unfortunately you overlook the fact that that was as a UK Government minister, not as a Scottish Government minister, so I cannot see any relevance to your post, other than nit-picking. Sorry!

When a Scot does well he's a Scot but when he screws up he's British.

Typical........!

No, you need to look at the wider picture.

He was acting in the interests of the UK government at the time.

Fact is many of these issues were never properly considered, such was the clamour to join the Common Market.

I'll leave it to the older members to give an overview of the political climate at the time however.

Edited November 9, 2012 by smokie36

[theblether]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

Unfortunately you overlook the fact that that was as a UK Government minister, not as a Scottish Government minister, so I cannot see any relevance to your post, other than nit-picking. Sorry!

When a Scot does well he's a Scot but when he screws up he's British.

Typical........!

Au Contraire........

Anyway the UK was responsible for fishing policy, not Scotland, so it's a UK responsibility. We would like it to be ours.

[theblether]

Not being much older than you, buy having studied the politics of the time Smokie, it's safe to say, and I think I will get unanimous agreement on this.

The British electorate were conned by the political class.

They thought they were agreeing to join a free trade area.........not a overbearing political Union that stripped the UK of sovereignty.

[MAJIC]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

Let's not forget that it was a Scottish politician who negotiated all of the UK fishing rights(see my earlier post)thus destroying the two largest fishing ports in Europe, Hull and Grimsby.

This all dates back to the beginning of the Common Market. The Common Fisheries Policy was a joke.

Go read Con O'Neil's comments on that. Then you will be a little bit wiser nontabury.

His political master was a Scotsman,who agreed to the destruction of the British fishing fleet, FACT.

Interesting to read that the policy of the then EEC and its founding members, were adamant that Britain as a new applicant would have to accept the existing rules,basically take it or leave it. This is exactly what Scotland will come up against. They can tell the EU what they would like as a new member,but it is the existing member who will lay down the rules and most importantly the cost,there will certainly be no rebate,such as the one now granted to the UK. I think the SNP

or will it then be, the Scotish Labour party will HAVE to accept some unpalatable terms in order to gain membership of this club.

Absolutely! Membership will not be free,or on Scottish terms only,more wishful thinking to try and convince the Yes voters i'm afraid. But at least the unrealistic talk of Automatic admission to the EU,seems to be silenced.

[theblether]

Are we being pedantic now? the Unionists were insinuating that we would not get entry at all, we know there has to be Treaties signed between Scotland and the EU and we know we must agree to the Treaties, no problem, it's been SNP policy for years to go for Independence in Europe.

Circular arguments.

[SimonD]

World War 2 is the answer to your question.

Incorrect. It was the cost of the Great War, 1914-1918, that bankrupted the Empire.

WW2 only accelerated the decline.

[endure]

Further posts containing personal insults and attacks have been removed. If you want your posts (and ultimately your ability to post) to remain you will stop these insults now.

[MAJIC]

I'd ;like to see Scotland renegotiate her fishing rights. The return of our fishing fleet would be welcome in my home town!

What was the deal at that particular time? was it the same as English Fishermen/Boat owners,Sell your Licence for huge amounts to Foreign Boat owners,and retire, or did Scotland have a different Deal?