Poll: Obama Leading Romney 49% To 46% Ahead Of Second Debate

[koheesti]

Gary who?

Anyway, back to the actual contenders, ...

I said the same thing not long ago and I am more Libertarian in my views than Republican. And I (like most of us here) probably follow politics more closely than 98% of the population. What does that say about the way the people get information from the media? As the photo of the ballot I posted shows, there are many more parties than just the Dems and Reps but they are the ones that control pretty much everything so others don't get much airtime even though they aren't that much different.

[keemapoot]

Miss Rice was ok at her job, but not exceptional. She toed the line for Cheney and Bush. That was her job description. Powell, on the other hand, was the fall guy which the Republican cabal put in front of the spotlights to justify the invasion of Iraq. It's hard to tell whether Powell knew the data he was given was bullshit. It looked as though he really believed it. When I watched his expert presentation, I believed it also, so I too was in favor of the invasion.

What is troubling for me, even though I do lean slightly right, is that Romney has hired the same failed Bush Jr. team for most of his foreign policy advice. I believe he can beat Obama toe-to-toe in the election even taking a more reasoned approach to foreign policy on Monday.

Finally, look at the people he trusts.

Anyone in the international affairs business knows that the people you choose for key roles are often what define your relationships with allies and enemies. And Romney’s surrounded himself with neoconservatives from the Bush administration whose instincts are to jettison nuance and use force far more often than is wise or necessary.

One of his closest advisors on the campaign is Dan Senor, whose main foreign policy experience was to spin the media and disguise the disaster that was unfolding in Iraq in 2003 and 2004 as chief spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority there.

John Bolton, a former UN ambassador, and Eliot Cohen, former counselor and senior advisor at the State Department, are also part of the Romney team. Both were in senior leadership positions in the Bush administration as it sunk America’s power and prestige around the world to new lows.

And this team argues for a return to some of the same approaches they tried and failed under Bush: Their policy proposals on Iran sound strikingly similar to what they advocated on Iraq a decade ago. In 2009, Cohen wrote in the Wall Street Journal that on Iran, “the choices are now what they ever were: an American or an Israeli strike, which would probably cause a substantial war, or living in a world with Iranian nuclear weapons, which may also result in war, perhaps nuclear, over a longer period of time. … it is, therefore, in the American interest to break with past policy and actively seek the overthrow of the Islamic Republic.”

Read more: http://www.nydailyne...5#ixzz29vXlQjp0

[chuckd]

The Fox News shows begin at 1700 EDT in the US. There are no hard news shows on MSNBC.

The O'Reilly show is the highest rated show on cable news.

Here is a link that will show you the viewership on the cable news networks. Fox kills all cable networks every day.

http://tvbythenumber...17-2012/153611/

Remember, Google is your friend.

Yes, and The Sun Newspaper has the highest readership in Britain (that's also a Murdoch vehicle). Trust me, you really do not want to popularity as any kind of plus point!

1700EDT is New York time? If so I can set my DVR for stupid o'clock here if that is the case and I'll let you know what I think.

Don't bother on my account.

[koheesti]

I'd also like to go back to the Photo ID discussion we had earlier that was supposed to eliminate "Voter Fraud".

Does this count as "Voter Fraud"?

A third instance of fraudulent voter registration has been uncovered in the important swing state of Virginia, where a Republican consultant has been arrested and thousands of discarded voter registration forms were recovered from a dumpster earlier this week. According to the Not Larry Sabato blog, a law student at James Madison University registered to vote on campus, but found when she tried to verify the change online, found that her form had never been submitted.

On Thursday, Raw Story reported that 31-year-old Colin Small, a Republican operative employed by Pinpoint, a firm contracted by Republican Party of Virginia, was arrested and charged with “four counts of destruction of voter registration applications, eight counts of disclosure of voter registration application, and one count of obstruction of justice” for throwing active voter registration forms into a dumpster.

Raw Story (http://s.tt/1qvXQ)

Thanks for sharing. Yes, voter fraud does exist and this is more evidence that more control is needed. No one believes that the fraud ends at the registration level, it continues through to the voting booth and even the counting of ballots afterwards. We need to tighten it up at all levels of the voting process. Voter ID will go a long way to limit the fraud at the voting booth.

Edited October 21, 2012 by koheesti

[Chicog]

Thanks for sharing. Yes, voter fraud does exist and this is more evidence that more control is needed. No one believes that the fraud ends at the registration level, it continues through to the voting booth and even the counting of ballots afterwards. We need to tighten it up at all levels of the voting process. Voter ID will go a long way to limit the fraud at the voting booth.

But I thought Voter ID was already there in the process?

More to the point do you really believe that the number of fraudulent votes has ever influenced a presidential election? I seem to remember the count being a mere handful - far less than the case I cited above (and apparently having been caught once and fired, the same company was hired by the Republicans straight away - does that not concern you?).

[Chicog]

Don't bother on my account.

Oh I won't, I want to see if there is actually any "News" on Fox News.

[koheesti]

Miss Rice was ok at her job, but not exceptional. She toed the line for Cheney and Bush. That was her job description. Powell, on the other hand, was the fall guy which the Republican cabal put in front of the spotlights to justify the invasion of Iraq. It's hard to tell whether Powell knew the data he was given was bullshit. It looked as though he really believed it. When I watched his expert presentation, I believed it also, so I too was in favor of the invasion. Cheney, Bush Jr. (whoes father used to be top banana at the CIA) and Rice hoodwinked millions of people with that presentation at the UN. It wasn't until months later that the data was proved to be bogus.

Either Cheney and Bush knew it was bogus, or they had horrible intelligence. Either way, it destroyed any hope Powell might have had for running for prez. He would have made a much better canditate than McCain. Instead, he became a sacrificial lamb for the Republican war machine.

Analyzing intel isn't a 100% certain game. You need to look at all the pieces and make a guess. It's a guess that comes with consequences either way you choose. I know some people like to believe that with regards to WMDs in Iraq that they knew 100% for sure and just chose to lie, but some people also believe the world is 4,500 years old too.

[lomatopo]

It could be simply a coincidence, and then again it might be the population of the four states you cite.

California - 37,253,956

New York - 19,378,102

Wyoming - 2,763,885

Utah - 563,626

http://exploredia.co...us-states-2011/

Believe you've mixed up Wyoming and Utah. Unless you're talking steers.

[koheesti]

Here's a clever political move by the Obama campaign to juxtapose its position of diplomacy first in foreign affairs as opposed to as of now, Romney's Bush Jr.-like shoot first, talk later approach. It takes the upper hand in the looming debate on Monday. I expect Romney to refine his position before Monday's debate however, meaning, er, he will change his position. Maybe not?

White House prepared to meet one-on-one with Iran

http://news.yahoo.co...-234043257.html

Didn't Obama say during the 2008 campaign that he would meet one-on-one with Iran? It seems like he made all these promises 4 years ago and just now is trying to get around doing something about them. It's like a student who knows he has all semester to write a paper, but waits until the last 2 days to research and write it, then is surprised when he doesn't get an A (I wasn't, I thought getting a C for 48 hours work wasn't too bad).

[koheesti]

Thanks for sharing. Yes, voter fraud does exist and this is more evidence that more control is needed. No one believes that the fraud ends at the registration level, it continues through to the voting booth and even the counting of ballots afterwards. We need to tighten it up at all levels of the voting process. Voter ID will go a long way to limit the fraud at the voting booth.

But I thought Voter ID was already there in the process?

More to the point do you really believe that the number of fraudulent votes has ever influenced a presidential election? I seem to remember the count being a mere handful - far less than the case I cited above (and apparently having been caught once and fired, the same company was hired by the Republicans straight away - does that not concern you?).

The number of times fraud was discovered is irrelevant. No one on the entire planet can take a container of liquid or gel over 100ml on an international flight because of a single incident many years ago in the UK. It happened once, and that was enough to tighten the laws to make sure it never happens again.

[chuckd]

It could be simply a coincidence, and then again it might be the population of the four states you cite.

California - 37,253,956

New York - 19,378,102

Wyoming - 2,763,885

Utah - 563,626

http://exploredia.co...us-states-2011/

Believe you've mixed up Wyoming and Utah. Unless you're talking steers.

Not talking steers but I did switch the two states, in error. Thanks for pointing it out.

[koheesti]

Is Romney another Reagan?

Let's hope so. Someone needs to improve the economy and the present occupant of the White House isn't doing it.

Maybe Reagan did some things right. Yet, he was riding on a wave of prosperity, much of it fostered by Silicon Valley (those dam_n liberals ).

You've just described the secret behind the success of Clinton's second term - silicon valley and the Internet.

[lomatopo]

I think a lot of Republican Pols would actually prefer that Romney lose, particularly in a close, controversial election, with some documented voter fraud. This would provide Obama with little mandate, or even a questionable mandate.

They really don’t like/trust Romney (Governor of Massachusetts, Mr. Etch-a-Sketch, Mormon) and there is no downside to sitting pat for four years; continue to divide the country, maybe agitate for a new war, push the budget deeper into debt, maybe default. Then tee up Jeb Bush for the rescue.

Lose, Win, Win.

But Romney might spoil this scenario, then lose to Hillary in 2016?

[Gary A]

Here is an interesting poll of polls. It appears that the worm has turned. Romney is up by a whisker.

http://polltracker.talkingpointsmemo.com/contests/us-president-12

[Chicog]

Thanks for sharing. Yes, voter fraud does exist and this is more evidence that more control is needed. No one believes that the fraud ends at the registration level, it continues through to the voting booth and even the counting of ballots afterwards. We need to tighten it up at all levels of the voting process. Voter ID will go a long way to limit the fraud at the voting booth.

But I thought Voter ID was already there in the process?

More to the point do you really believe that the number of fraudulent votes has ever influenced a presidential election? I seem to remember the count being a mere handful - far less than the case I cited above (and apparently having been caught once and fired, the same company was hired by the Republicans straight away - does that not concern you?).

The number of times fraud was discovered is irrelevant. No one on the entire planet can take a container of liquid or gel over 100ml on an international flight because of a single incident many years ago in the UK. It happened once, and that was enough to tighten the laws to make sure it never happens again.

Now there's a non sequitur if ever I saw one. How does a (in my view disproportionate and misguided) security response to attempted terrorist acts relate to voter fraud, apart from in some obtuse statistical manner?

We are talking about hundreds of voter registrations deliberately discarded here. And in another case:

In Florida last month, Republican state officials paid a company $1.3 million to register voters, but county election officials noticed several registrations contained unauthorized address changes and names of dead people.

It strikes me that there are better and more productive targets than the few you have identified.

But of course, in this instance the Republican party would not benefit from them being closed, would they? Perhaps that's why they don't merit so much discussion on Fox News.

[keemapoot]

Here's a clever political move by the Obama campaign to juxtapose its position of diplomacy first in foreign affairs as opposed to as of now, Romney's Bush Jr.-like shoot first, talk later approach. It takes the upper hand in the looming debate on Monday. I expect Romney to refine his position before Monday's debate however, meaning, er, he will change his position. Maybe not?

White House prepared to meet one-on-one with Iran

http://news.yahoo.co...-234043257.html

oops...

Iran denies report of plans for nuclear talks with U.S.

http://www.reuters.c...E89K05N20121021

then this...

White House denies US, Iran agreed to 1-on-1 talks

http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=288662

Edited October 21, 2012 by keemapoot

[Ulysses G.]

:

In Florida last month, Republican state officials paid a company $1.3 million to register voters, but county election officials noticed several registrations contained unauthorized address changes and names of dead people.

Actually, the Republican state officials were the ones who reported the scam to the county election officials. They were in the right.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Chicog]

:

In Florida last month, Republican state officials paid a company $1.3 million to register voters, but county election officials noticed several registrations contained unauthorized address changes and names of dead people.

Actually, the Republican stae officials were the ones who reported the scam to the county election officials. They were in the right.

Nice try. Unfortunately the dates show otherwise.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/us/politics/suspicious-voter-forms-found-in-10-florida-counties.html?_r=0

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/10/01/3029854/state-gop-slow-to-react-on-charges.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/02/1138858/-Top-Florida-Republicans-have-no-advice-for-election-officials-about-voter-fraud-by-Republicans

Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections Susan Bucher said she is getting no direction from state officials as to how to proceed in checking the other forms filed by Strategic Allied Consulting, which was fired last week.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/republican-campaign-worker-charged-with-voter-registration-fraud/2012/10/19/c07cc378-1a01-11e2-94aa-9240e72ee00b_story.html

Florida, Virginia? Are these swing states? How many states did the Republicans hire this company to "handle"?

[Ulysses G.]

Rassmusen just come out with their weekly poll. Romney two points ahead and no bump for Obama after second debate.

[chuckd]

Some of our members might want to read up on the company Obama previously worked for.

Their acronym is ACORN.

[maidu]

Is the president allowed to say "I'm not at liberty to discuss that" ....during the debate? There are security issues which might be broached, if everything is mentionable at a very public conversation about foreign policy. Part of what makes foreign policy effective is the trust other countries have in info staying confidential (p.s. my dad was career CIA). Wikileaks damaged that sort of trust. It will come as no surprise if countries' leaders/intelligence services play their cards a lot closer to the chest, now that they're concerned about leaks of confidential memos. What will ensue will be more guessing (about what others are doing/planning), and less credible data. The CIA is mostly a bloated means to gather info about others. If Romney bullies Obama (stacatto and aggressive repetitions of questions aimed to embarass), it could have repercussions beyond US political maneuvering.

Most Americans still believe in the tired old adage 'might makes right' and such actions like the 'sucker punch' and 'whomever can stick a gun in someone's face is the stronger or more rightous of two antagonists.' Such beliefs are nurtured by violent movies (as much as any other influences). I like to tell people who believe in such things that even a 4 year old toddler can fire a gun which can kill the biggest baddest green beret, navy seal or Hell's Angel. Romney acting aggressive in the debate venue may appeal to some, but not to all voters.

Edited October 21, 2012 by maidu

[koheesti]

Is the president allowed to say "I'm not at liberty to discuss that" ....during the debate? There are security issues which might be broached, if everything is mentionable at a very public conversation about foreign policy.

I don't think Obama has shown much concern over such things...

A Guide to the Obama Administration’s Five Major Scandals for Mainstream Media Dummies

Scandal 3. Obama administration leaks sensitive national security information for political purposes.

In a series of stories that were published in the New York Times, and in a movie production that was set to make a two-hour pre-election infomercial for President Obama, a person or persons within the administration leaked all kinds of sensitive national security information to the media. These persons leaked the names of active Navy SEAL special operators to Hollywood producers, they leaked details of ongoing cyber operations against Iran, and they leaked details about how the president decides when and where to kill terrorists. None of this information should have leaked. All of it hurt our nation’s security in one way or another.

http://pjmedia.com/t...-media-dummies/

Edited October 21, 2012 by koheesti

[Jingthing]

I think this link is worth sharing.

Sadly, so many Americans are falling for the meme that businessmen make better presidents for the economy. That is the main big sell of Romney's entire campaign. The trouble is: it is NOT true. It is extremely wrong actually.

!!!

The startling bottom line is that the nation’s GDP has grown more than 45 times faster under presidents with little or no business experience than it has under presidents with successful business careers.

!!!

http://www.washingto...721b_story.html

Edited October 21, 2012 by Jingthing

[koheesti]

I think this link is worth sharing.

Sadly, so many Americans are falling for the meme that businessmen make better presidents for the economy. That is the main big sell of Romney's entire campaign. The trouble is: it is NOT true. It is extremely wrong actually.

!!!

The startling bottom line is that the nation’s GDP has grown more than 45 times faster under presidents with little or no business experience than it has under presidents with successful business careers.

!!!

http://www.washingto...721b_story.html

Businessmen make bad presidents? Maybe, maybe not, but without a doubt community organizers make the worst presidents.

[Jingthing]

Businessmen make bad presidents? Maybe, maybe not, but without a doubt community organizers make the worst presidents.

It's way to early to even begin to judge the two term presidency of Barack Obama in a historical context.

[Ulysses G.]

Not for me it's not.

[Ulysses G.]

Romney and Obama are tied in the popular vote. Romney is ahead in the electoral vote. It seems that Obama got no bump from the second debate. Romney still has momentum. The last debate tomorrow could be crucial.

[keemapoot]

I think this link is worth sharing.

Sadly, so many Americans are falling for the meme that businessmen make better presidents for the economy. That is the main big sell of Romney's entire campaign. The trouble is: it is NOT true. It is extremely wrong actually.

!!!

The startling bottom line is that the nation’s GDP has grown more than 45 times faster under presidents with little or no business experience than it has under presidents with successful business careers.

!!!

http://www.washingto...721b_story.html

That is an interesting story, but the thing to remember is that not all businessmen are created equal. There are several distinct different leadership styles that may impact this, and whether the business experience was comprised of broad national and global matters or simply growing & selling peanuts or wildcatting for oil and selling it to the local refinery.

In Ross Perot's case he was too dictatorial to be considered Presidential material. Some business leaders are more consensus building, and I think Romney has proven to be one of those (outside of business). In terms of his Private Equity experience, his main concern was making his Limited Partners happy (pension fund investors like calPERS, for example - the largest managed public pension fund in the U.S. that invested in Bain's funds). He did that by investing wisely, making sure the company either thrived through overseeing management, or structuring the deal up front where he could cut still make money for calPERS (and himself and Bain) in any failure. Critics of Romney have called that vulture investing or Gordon Gekko lite. But, those are valuable skills to have when it comes to turning around large enterprises in trouble, and to borrow a Gordon Gekko line "that other malfunctioning corporation, called the USA."

I haven't looked into the composition of Romney's investments while at Bain or to what extent he was involved with management decisions in large important companies that impacted many issues, so I can't comment on whether his business experience is more worldly than Jimmy Carter's peanut farm or Bush Sr.'s oil biz, but I suspect it was.

I don't like Romney, but if elected, I will look forward with great interest to see if he can turn around the US economy, and if so, I will like him a lot better.

Edited October 22, 2012 by keemapoot

[lomatopo]

Is the president allowed to say "I'm not at liberty to discuss that" ....during the debate?

In refusing to debate Sen. Humphrey in 1968 Richard Nixon cited national security concerns, specifically the Paris Peace talks, as his primary, public reason. He was in a tight race, and didn't fare so well in the famous 1960 debate with JFK. Nixon also refused to debate Sen. McGovern - who just passed away a few days ago - in 1972 even though he had a commanding lead in the polls, and would ultimately win a record landslide victory.

[keemapoot]

Is the president allowed to say "I'm not at liberty to discuss that" ....during the debate?

In refusing to debate Sen. Humphrey in 1968 Richard Nixon cited national security concerns, specifically the Paris Peace talks, as his primary, public reason. He was in a tight race, and didn't fare so well in the famous 1960 debate with JFK. Nixon also refused to debate Sen. McGovern - who just passed away a few days ago - in 1972 even though he had a commanding lead in the polls, and would ultimately win a record landslide victory.

That is a great tactic for an incumbent president, but today, the candidates, including Romney and Ryan do get security briefings so I believe there is less wriggle room to invoke the "I can't talk about it" argument, as both candidates should know not to cross the line. Having said that, a standing President still is privy to lots more classified info, and can still probably go to that if cornered, but it doesn't look good. I don't expect Obama to do that on Monday, nor Romney to push something sensitive he is privy to to gain such advantage.