Meeting With Monks

[meadish_sweetball]

Random ones, I admit I could put more effort into it, but it's not a priority. Once of those things. However I did once go to a temple in Korat which is famous for being a place to send the alcoholic father in law etc, which have controversial but highly effective techniques which include making their guests vomit regularly.. the "abbot" there is well known, I forget the name (am useless with names) and I had a conversation with him.

But I think, if one has to go and find one out and go to such lengths to research their specialisation or reputation then one is no longer talking about monks, but rather academics.

I was asking because my experience of just chatting with random monks have also tended to be much like any random encounter, pleasant chats, but nothing that blew my mind in any way. After somebody pointed it out to me (and I hate the fact that I needed it to be pointed out), it became obvious that the robes don't really reveal anything about a person's skills or insights, that on some subtler level I think I assumed they would.

When discussing insight meditation practice with a monk who is respected as a master of insight meditation, I received quite a few valuable pointers, but we did not have a long discussion as the line outside his 'office' was exceedingly long. And our conversation only concerned dhamma practice and nothing else.

[rockyysdt]

I had an insightful encounter with a Monk of 27 years.

He spoke of sitting practice.

The advise was in two parts.

1. Observe your breath. First the short breath. Observe what affect a deliberate short breath has. After your short breath investigation move on to a long breath. Breath as long and deeply as is comfortable and observe the calming affect a long breath has.Then adjust the the long breath until it becomes comfortable and natural. Practice achieving a comfortably natural long breath until you perfect it.

2. When observing the breath don't just focus at the nostrils. Follow the in breath through the nasal passages, down the windpipe into the lungs and finally at your diaphragm. Then follow the out breath up through the lungs, along the windpipe and nasal passages and out through the nostrils, taking special attention to observe the moment between the end of the in breath and beginning of the out breath.

He said to forget about trying to meditate, but simply focus on these exercises and you will be well on your way to successfully achieving the first 4 tetrads of Anapanasiti.

Sabaijai, and anyone else, who has met and discussed something with an "insightful" monk, would you please mind sharing what was discussed and why you enjoyed it?

I am genuinely interested. Its the kind of experience I would like to have myself but have repeatedly failed. Perhaps it is me!

Edited January 6, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Jawnie]

Maybe the monks you know are ordinary people but that doesn't make it true for all monks. No monk should be ordinary but many are anyway. It depends on the motivation of the monk.

[Jawnie]

Random ones, I admit I could put more effort into it, but it's not a priority. Once of those things. However I did once go to a temple in Korat which is famous for being a place to send the alcoholic father in law etc, which have controversial but highly effective techniques which include making their guests vomit regularly.. the "abbot" there is well known, I forget the name (am useless with names) and I had a conversation with him.

But I think, if one has to go and find one out and go to such lengths to research their specialisation or reputation then one is no longer talking about monks, but rather academics.

Not so. It is traditional in Buddhism to 'search for one's teacher', a person with a known reputation of wisdom, insight, and for skillfully leading students in spiritual practice. Frankly, it would be rather superficial and illogical to give little or no forethought to finding the person who is going to help you on the path to enlightenment. In any case, masters who are also teachers are much more than academics. They are typically monks, academics with expertise in numerous subjects and fields, as well having achieved some level of realization beyond mere theory and discourse.

[rockyysdt]

Not so. It is traditional in Buddhism to 'search for one's teacher', a person with a known reputation of wisdom, insight, and for skillfully leading students in spiritual practice. Frankly, it would be rather superficial and illogical to give little or no forethought to finding the person who is going to help you on the path to enlightenment. In any case, masters who are also teachers are much more than academics. They are typically monks, academics with expertise in numerous subjects and fields, as well having achieved some level of realization beyond mere theory and discourse.

Out of interest J, have you been able to find a suitable teacher?

As it seems to be the custom that those who have achieved the pinnacle don't make it known, if you have one, is your teacher an arahant or beyond?

If he/she is, how have you been able to determine this?

[Jawnie]

Not so. It is traditional in Buddhism to 'search for one's teacher', a person with a known reputation of wisdom, insight, and for skillfully leading students in spiritual practice. Frankly, it would be rather superficial and illogical to give little or no forethought to finding the person who is going to help you on the path to enlightenment. In any case, masters who are also teachers are much more than academics. They are typically monks, academics with expertise in numerous subjects and fields, as well having achieved some level of realization beyond mere theory and discourse.

Out of interest J, have you been able to find a suitable teacher?

As it seems to be the custom that those who have achieved the pinnacle don't make it known, if you have one, is your teacher an arahant or beyond?

If he/she is, how have you been able to determine this?

Yes, found many years ago. The mention that teachers don't make it known may be more of a Theravada tradition. Since I'm with the Mahayana/Vajrayana, this is not the case. In the traditions a teacher is indispensable for enlightenment and students are encouraged to find a teacher and stay with them for as long as it takes. That the student has a teacher is an "escalating requirement" with regard to Theravada-Mahayana-Vajrayana. Teachers belong to lineages and the lineages are well known - there is little room for charlatans or unqualified teachers because of the presence of real masters who know and teach the difference.

[rockyysdt]

Yes, found many years ago. The mention that teachers don't make it known may be more of a Theravada tradition. Since I'm with the Mahayana/Vajrayana, this is not the case. In the traditions a teacher is indispensable for enlightenment and students are encouraged to find a teacher and stay with them for as long as it takes. That the student has a teacher is an "escalating requirement" with regard to Theravada-Mahayana-Vajrayana. Teachers belong to lineages and the lineages are well known - there is little room for charlatans or unqualified teachers because of the presence of real masters who know and teach the difference.

My thoughts are that, to have such access is half the battle.

Not only on a practical level but also motivation/inspiration.

You mentioned the need to stay with them for as long as it takes.

Does this apply if your teacher turns out to be fake/unskilled?

Has your master revealed that he/she is "awakened"?

[Jawnie]

Yes, found many years ago. The mention that teachers don't make it known may be more of a Theravada tradition. Since I'm with the Mahayana/Vajrayana, this is not the case. In the traditions a teacher is indispensable for enlightenment and students are encouraged to find a teacher and stay with them for as long as it takes. That the student has a teacher is an "escalating requirement" with regard to Theravada-Mahayana-Vajrayana. Teachers belong to lineages and the lineages are well known - there is little room for charlatans or unqualified teachers because of the presence of real masters who know and teach the difference.

My thoughts are that, to have such access is half the battle.

Not only on a practical level but also motivation/inspiration.

You mentioned the need to stay with them for as long as it takes.

Does this apply if your teacher turns out to be fake/unskilled?

Has your master revealed that he/she is "awakened"?

Of course you would not stay with a fake teacher...this is why one spends time getting to know the teacher before making the commitment to a specific teacher. Your other question, teachers don't typically 'demonstrate' that they are awakened....how would they do that, perform some kind of miracle or mind reading? In any case, you have to spend some time getting to know the teacher and learning about his lineage. Another way I heard of for evaluating a teacher is by examining the quality of the teacher's students.

[rockyysdt]

Of course you would not stay with a fake teacher...this is why one spends time getting to know the teacher before making the commitment to a specific teacher.

Sometimes it takes considerable time before those we associate with reveal their true character.

If one has made an oath of commitment, only to discover a negative character after such commitment, one must abide by ones oath.

It's wise to spend time to get to know ones teacher, but it can be easy for a novice to err in this area.

Your other question, teachers don't typically 'demonstrate' that they are awakened....how would they do that, perform some kind of miracle or mind reading? In any case, you have to spend some time getting to know the teacher and learning about his lineage. Another way I heard of for evaluating a teacher is by examining the quality of the teacher's students.

With my experience, I can only speculate.

I would imagine an awakened one would present with a serene aura with no attachment to conditioned mannerisms and or conditioned character flaws.

This is why I can be uninspired when encountering possible teachers who display considerable flaws such as bouts of stuttering and other anxiety/nervous related displays.

To me it's suggestive of one who may still be attached to worries, fears, and anxieties.

Am I wrong in judging ones state (awakening) by such displays?

In terms of lineage, I'm not sure how one can substantiate such claims.

Examining the quality of ones students sounds a good way of evaluation, although one must be wary, as what ones sees of a negative nature in them might be a deep seated attachment the student is going through.

I recall that Mae Chee Kaew's teacher Ajaan Mahā Boowa eventually told her to immediately leave him and to never return, due to her obstinancy in refusing to accept his teaching.

[Asiantravel]

numbers of laypeople are becoming disillusioned with or even hostile towards religion.

Yes, unfortunately in Thailand they have well and truly found their new religion-money and consumerism.

When I was in Chiang Mai I found they have a program at Mahachulalongkorn Rajavidyalaya Buddhist University called monkchat.

http://www.monkchat.net/

[theblether]

The problem is that too many "monks" are just going through the motions. These are the people that are damaging Buddhism and the relationship with lay people.

People then become disillusioned and a negative cycle is reinforced.

[SteeleJoe]

The problem is that too many "monks" are just going through the motions. These are the people that are damaging Buddhism and the relationship with lay people.

People then become disillusioned and a negative cycle is reinforced.

Truth.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[Jawnie]

Of course you would not stay with a fake teacher...this is why one spends time getting to know the teacher before making the commitment to a specific teacher.

Sometimes it takes considerable time before those we associate with reveal their true character.

If one has made an oath of commitment, only to discover a negative character after such commitment, one must abide by ones oath.

It's wise to spend time to get to know ones teacher, but it can be easy for a novice to err in this area.

Your other question, teachers don't typically 'demonstrate' that they are awakened....how would they do that, perform some kind of miracle or mind reading? In any case, you have to spend some time getting to know the teacher and learning about his lineage. Another way I heard of for evaluating a teacher is by examining the quality of the teacher's students.

With my experience, I can only speculate.

I would imagine an awakened one would present with a serene aura with no attachment to conditioned mannerisms and or conditioned character flaws.

This is why I can be uninspired when encountering possible teachers who display considerable flaws such as bouts of stuttering and other anxiety/nervous related displays.

To me it's suggestive of one who may still be attached to worries, fears, and anxieties.

Am I wrong in judging ones state (awakening) by such displays?

In terms of lineage, I'm not sure how one can substantiate such claims.

Examining the quality of ones students sounds a good way of evaluation, although one must be wary, as what ones sees of a negative nature in them might be a deep seated attachment the student is going through.

I recall that Mae Chee Kaew's teacher Ajaan Mahā Boowa eventually told her to immediately leave him and to never return, due to her obstinancy in refusing to accept his teaching.

With all due respect, I think many people, most people, would not find a teacher suitable to their liking in Thailand. Why? Because the Thai form of Theravada is not well suited to the world we now live in - it requires adherents to reject everything while adopting a rather limited set of practices. This is not the direction of the world anymore and different approaches are needed because of it. The Western mind predominates much more than at the Buddha's time, as does materialism. This is why Mahayana and Tibetan forms of Buddhism are more popular and helpful, frankly. They don't teach full-on rejection from day one. In the meantime, they contain practices for dealing effectively with the mental and emotional imbalances and problems of our time and place. There is a wide range of practices and approaches available for people with all types of mental capabilities and inclinations. There are also qualified teachers available to teach...but you won't find them in Thailand.

Teachers don't do anything out of the ordinary to demonstrate being awakened. This is a fixation with some people, that the teacher demonstrates being awaken. They just don't do that. Rather, they teach, they teach practice, practice, practice along with conducting rituals and establishing pure Dharma centers. Finding a teacher isn't much different than buying a car: you do research, to talk to people, take the car for a test drive, you think, consider...and then decide. The car doesn't do anything, you do all the work. Same with finding a teacher. With regard to lineages, you must read, study, ask questions, attend rituals, teachings, and empowerments...this is the only way to get past your skepticism and not knowing regarding lineages. Without bona fide lineages (which there are many) the teachings would quickly degenerate.

So it may be because there are so few quality teachers available in Thailand that you've always been disappointed. There are many places in the world where there are more qualified teachers than one is able to handle.

[rockyysdt]

With all due respect, I think many people, most people, would not find a teacher suitable to their liking in Thailand. Why? Because the Thai form of Theravada is not well suited to the world we now live in - it requires adherents to reject everything while adopting a rather limited set of practices. This is not the direction of the world anymore and different approaches are needed because of it. The Western mind predominates much more than at the Buddha's time, as does materialism. This is why Mahayana and Tibetan forms of Buddhism are more popular and helpful, frankly. They don't teach full-on rejection from day one. In the meantime, they contain practices for dealing effectively with the mental and emotional imbalances and problems of our time and place. There is a wide range of practices and approaches available for people with all types of mental capabilities and inclinations. There are also qualified teachers available to teach...but you won't find them in Thailand.

My limited knowledge of Mahayana is that it is seems anchored in elaborate ritual.

Without limiting oneself, isn't Zen also a suitable vehicle?

This is a fixation with some people, that the teacher demonstrates being awaken. They just don't do that. Rather, they teach, they teach practice, practice, practice along with conducting rituals and establishing pure Dharma centers. Finding a teacher isn't much different than buying a car: you do research, to talk to people, take the car for a test drive, you think, consider...and then decide. The car doesn't do anything, you do all the work. Same with finding a teacher. With regard to lineages, you must read, study, ask questions, attend rituals, teachings, and empowerments...this is the only way to get past your skepticism and not knowing regarding lineages. Without bona fide lineages (which there are many) the teachings would quickly degenerate.

So it may be because there are so few quality teachers available in Thailand that you've always been disappointed. There are many places in the world where there are more qualified teachers than one is able to handle.

Although good teachers may restrict what they offer to teaching, isn't teaching the most important aspect they have to offer?

As indicated, no matter what one learns, without practice it is useless.

One of the most important attributes a teacher should have is first hand experience of what they teach.

Teachers don't do anything out of the ordinary to demonstrate being awakened.

My view is that an awakened one doesn't need to demonstrate this.

My thoughts are that his/her qualities would naturally exude.

You could call this an aura or feeling, or sixth sense.

Am I incorrect?

Edited January 10, 2013 by rockyysdt

[harryfrompattaya]

The problem is that too many "monks" are just going through the motions. These are the people that are damaging Buddhism and the relationship with lay people.

People then become disillusioned and a negative cycle is reinforced.

Truth.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Are these the monks I see eating in Resaurants in Chiang Mai after 12:00 pm

[beautifulthailand99]

Im only a lightweight observer of all this but there is a lot of wisdom and inisght in this subforum and thread.I find most meetings with monks to be instructive in Thailand - I have had quite a lot of time to spare these last few months and often find myself noseying around temples just watching the world go by and drinking in the atmosphere. Most monks especially in Chiang Mai have been happy to talk and often quite like to talk in Thai-Lish. Speaking to a couple of young Thai monks in CM about my retreat experiences in Amaravati Temple UK where retreatants dont talk and are forbidden to use the internet or phones was met with disbelief and the opinion that the Jaoawat allowed this and it was important so that they could contact their families. It would seem a lot of the monks are only really doing their Thai version of monk national service for their families rather than any burning desire to follow the Buddha.

That said I would hope that no harm would come from this and maybe for many a lot of good and it is often better to look at Thai Buddhism through a more positive lens than the one that there are a lot of corrupt monks in Thailand. Im just watching some videos of Luang Ta Maha Boowha and he seemed to spend a lot of time giving Dhamma talks eating and spitting into his spitoon in a relaxed manner and to the unobservant could appear to be disrespectful to his position and authority. Having visited his Wat this week and I can say he has created a wonderfully beautiful and deeply calm and meditative space. Freed of rampant commercialism and excessive decoration of so many Buddhist temples in Thailand the place reveres and has at its heart the memory and teachings of this famous monk.The Abbots house or kuti is preserved as he left it with the calendar and clocks set to the time when he died and everywhere you hear the sound of brushes that have been made by the monks cleaning and sweeping the place with meditative intent. The monks dont seem to want to interact with visitors and I have never seen a more diligent or clean temple space in the whole of Thailand.

The preserved forest around the temple is an oasis of cool and beautiful nature alive with the sound of animals and birds. He has truly created a garden of Eden that represents all that is good with the life force freed of the greed and ego of human endeavour. This has gone a long way to restore my faith in some elements of Thai Buddhism - too much effort seems to go into building giant wats and Buddhas and selling all the trinkets and holy stuff that seems redolent of European medieval Christianity.

[Jawnie]

Im only a lightweight observer of all this but there is a lot of wisdom and inisght in this subforum and thread.I find most meetings with monks to be instructive in Thailand - I have had quite a lot of time to spare these last few months and often find myself noseying around temples just watching the world go by and drinking in the atmosphere. Most monks especially in Chiang Mai have been happy to talk and often quite like to talk in Thai-Lish. Speaking to a couple of young Thai monks in CM about my retreat experiences in Amaravati Temple UK where retreatants dont talk and are forbidden to use the internet or phones was met with disbelief and the opinion that the Jaoawat allowed this and it was important so that they could contact their families. It would seem a lot of the monks are only really doing their Thai version of monk national service for their families rather than any burning desire to follow the Buddha.

That said I would hope that no harm would come from this and maybe for many a lot of good and it is often better to look at Thai Buddhism through a more positive lens than the one that there are a lot of corrupt monks in Thailand. Im just watching some videos of Luang Ta Maha Boowha and he seemed to spend a lot of time giving Dhamma talks eating and spitting into his spitoon in a relaxed manner and to the unobservant could appear to be disrespectful to his position and authority. Having visited his Wat this week and I can say he has created a wonderfully beautiful and deeply calm and meditative space. Freed of rampant commercialism and excessive decoration of so many Buddhist temples in Thailand the place reveres and has at its heart the memory and teachings of this famous monk.The Abbots house or kuti is preserved as he left it with the calendar and clocks set to the time when he died and everywhere you hear the sound of brushes that have been made by the monks cleaning and sweeping the place with meditative intent. The monks dont seem to want to interact with visitors and I have never seen a more diligent or clean temple space in the whole of Thailand.

The preserved forest around the temple is an oasis of cool and beautiful nature alive with the sound of animals and birds. He has truly created a garden of Eden that represents all that is good with the life force freed of the greed and ego of human endeavour. This has gone a long way to restore my faith in some elements of Thai Buddhism - too much effort seems to go into building giant wats and Buddhas and selling all the trinkets and holy stuff that seems redolent of European medieval Christianity.

This temple is as it should be. For example, there are still Tibetan temples high in the Tibetan mountains that remain largely untouched by the communist Chinese annexation of Tibet and all the problems they've caused. There are still monks and lamas who go on extended isolated retreats, who live the same nomadic lifestyle they always have, and who practice the same enlightenment paths from ancient times. This is one way some of the key practice lineages are being preserved while the Chinese systematically destroy Tibetan culture below. More than one Tibetan master has said the retreat approach is 'the best way' to practice the Dharma. It's just that the direction of the world is going in the opposite direction...but there are teachings for those individuals, too. Then, the key point becomes, which forms of Buddhism serve people best in this situation and where are the teachers who can provide teachings to serve the current situation? One or two good teachers in Thailand is not enough to serve the entire world.

[Jawnie]

With all due respect, I think many people, most people, would not find a teacher suitable to their liking in Thailand. Why? Because the Thai form of Theravada is not well suited to the world we now live in - it requires adherents to reject everything while adopting a rather limited set of practices. This is not the direction of the world anymore and different approaches are needed because of it. The Western mind predominates much more than at the Buddha's time, as does materialism. This is why Mahayana and Tibetan forms of Buddhism are more popular and helpful, frankly. They don't teach full-on rejection from day one. In the meantime, they contain practices for dealing effectively with the mental and emotional imbalances and problems of our time and place. There is a wide range of practices and approaches available for people with all types of mental capabilities and inclinations. There are also qualified teachers available to teach...but you won't find them in Thailand.

My limited knowledge of Mahayana is that it is seems anchored in elaborate ritual.

Without limiting oneself, isn't Zen also a suitable vehicle?

This is a fixation with some people, that the teacher demonstrates being awaken. They just don't do that. Rather, they teach, they teach practice, practice, practice along with conducting rituals and establishing pure Dharma centers. Finding a teacher isn't much different than buying a car: you do research, to talk to people, take the car for a test drive, you think, consider...and then decide. The car doesn't do anything, you do all the work. Same with finding a teacher. With regard to lineages, you must read, study, ask questions, attend rituals, teachings, and empowerments...this is the only way to get past your skepticism and not knowing regarding lineages. Without bona fide lineages (which there are many) the teachings would quickly degenerate.

So it may be because there are so few quality teachers available in Thailand that you've always been disappointed. There are many places in the world where there are more qualified teachers than one is able to handle.

Although good teachers may restrict what they offer to teaching, isn't teaching the most important aspect they have to offer?

As indicated, no matter what one learns, without practice it is useless.

One of the most important attributes a teacher should have is first hand experience of what they teach.

Teachers don't do anything out of the ordinary to demonstrate being awakened.

My view is that an awakened one doesn't need to demonstrate this.

My thoughts are that his/her qualities would naturally exude.

You could call this an aura or feeling, or sixth sense.

Am I incorrect?

The Mahayana is anchored in the two aims: developing compassion for all sentient beings and in the practice of the six perfections leading to liberation of the practitioner. The rituals are skillful means for accomplishing both. As with anything Buddhist, the benefits of rituals depend on the motivation of the practitioner.

It seems you expect a specific type behavior from an enlightened master. It is entirely possible, however, for an enlightened master to be completely different than your expectation of them. If a master is truly enlightened, the enlightened qualities will be present in their words and actions all the time, regardless of whether others recognize it. It seems you think that an enlightened master will only be calm and serene. May I suggest that such a mind set could set you up for not being able to recognize a master because he or she isn't acting like you think they should? Many Tibetan masters who teach are quite the opposite...they are very busy directing a wide range of activities and students. They are like this particularly in the west in order to grab the attention of busy-headed westerners who don't have the time or inclination or ability to reject everything and live in the forest but who, none the less, are inclined to practice the Dharma.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jawnie

[Jawnie]

With all due respect, I think many people, most people, would not find a teacher suitable to their liking in Thailand. Why? Because the Thai form of Theravada is not well suited to the world we now live in - it requires adherents to reject everything while adopting a rather limited set of practices. This is not the direction of the world anymore and different approaches are needed because of it. The Western mind predominates much more than at the Buddha's time, as does materialism. This is why Mahayana and Tibetan forms of Buddhism are more popular and helpful, frankly. They don't teach full-on rejection from day one. In the meantime, they contain practices for dealing effectively with the mental and emotional imbalances and problems of our time and place. There is a wide range of practices and approaches available for people with all types of mental capabilities and inclinations. There are also qualified teachers available to teach...but you won't find them in Thailand.

My limited knowledge of Mahayana is that it is seems anchored in elaborate ritual.

Without limiting oneself, isn't Zen also a suitable vehicle?

This is a fixation with some people, that the teacher demonstrates being awaken. They just don't do that. Rather, they teach, they teach practice, practice, practice along with conducting rituals and establishing pure Dharma centers. Finding a teacher isn't much different than buying a car: you do research, to talk to people, take the car for a test drive, you think, consider...and then decide. The car doesn't do anything, you do all the work. Same with finding a teacher. With regard to lineages, you must read, study, ask questions, attend rituals, teachings, and empowerments...this is the only way to get past your skepticism and not knowing regarding lineages. Without bona fide lineages (which there are many) the teachings would quickly degenerate.

So it may be because there are so few quality teachers available in Thailand that you've always been disappointed. There are many places in the world where there are more qualified teachers than one is able to handle.

Although good teachers may restrict what they offer to teaching, isn't teaching the most important aspect they have to offer?

As indicated, no matter what one learns, without practice it is useless.

One of the most important attributes a teacher should have is first hand experience of what they teach.

Teachers don't do anything out of the ordinary to demonstrate being awakened.

My view is that an awakened one doesn't need to demonstrate this.

My thoughts are that his/her qualities would naturally exude.

You could call this an aura or feeling, or sixth sense.

Am I incorrect?

One point I missed regarding the Mahayana: it is in the Mahayana teachings where the ideal of the Bodhisattva appears. A Bodhisattva is a practitioner who postpones his or her final nirvana or enlightenment in order to remain within the six realms to work for the benefit of all other beings. This is motivated by the great compassion that arises from within the awakening mind. In order for Bodhisattvas to be successful, they must perfect their wisdom of the world, the mind, the the paths to freedom. Hence, the focus on the Six Perfections and emphasizing the perfection of wisdom.

I have heard Theravadins reject both the Mahayana and the Bodhisattva ideal because 1) they say the Buddha did not teach the Mahayana and 2) the idea of postponing one's personal liberation to help others is merely an attachment and hence, a defect. Both of these are incomplete views and wrong, frankly, and show clearly the distinction between the Theravada and Mahayana approaches.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Jawnie

[rockyysdt]

The Mahayana is anchored in the two aims: developing compassion for all sentient beings and in the practice of the six perfections leading to liberation of the practitioner. The rituals are skillful means for accomplishing both. As with anything Buddhist, the benefits of rituals depend on the motivation of the practitioner.

You mentioned before that specific teaching is available to suit individuals depending on each persons conditioning.

Isn't ritual something which may suit some but uneccessary for others?

I'm aware that my unawakened mind tends to be analytical.

If things don't make sense or appear ritualistic for the sake of custom/habitual practice/culture then I tend to turn off.

For example I'm not really big on chanting.

Naturally if concentration & awareness practice was to eventually yield awareness which would reveal the benefits of ritual, or if someone was to explain the benefits of ritual in an analytical/logical way, then I would openly embrace it.

It seems you expect a specific type behavior from an enlightened master. It is entirely possible, however, for an enlightened master to be completely different than your expectation of them. If a master is truly enlightened, the enlightened qualities will be present in their words and actions all the time, regardless of whether others recognize it. It seems you think that an enlightened master will only be calm and serene. May I suggest that such a mind set could set you up for not being able to recognize a master because he or she isn't acting like you think they should? Many Tibetan masters who teach are quite the opposite...they are very busy directing a wide range of activities and students. They are like this particularly in the west in order to grab the attention of busy-headed westerners who don't have the time or inclination or ability to reject everything and live in the forest but who, none the less, are inclined to practice the Dharma.

With my rudimentary knowledge of what the Buddha taught, I can only speculate how an awakend Master might behave.

My current awareness tells me that, although there are many common factors, many travellors see the world very differently from each other due to their background and conditioning.

Unless we were to be transported into the body/mind of another to experience this first hand, many of us go through life with the belief thast everyone thinks/feels as we do.

Due to my conditioning and life experience, I'm personally anchored/focused in the anxiety/fear/worry mindset.

Others might see this as quite alien to them.

Working through this my best bet in overcoming my roadblocks towards keeping the 8 fold path is to work on these issues.

Fortunately one of the benefits of concentration/mindfulness is excellent at addressing such conditioning.

With these eyes, I can see things others miss.

Having said that my experience is limited and there is a wide range of conditioning/life experience others have had which presents a different range of issues.

The Buddha taught that anxiety and fear, like hatred ties us to the very things that hurt us.

Anxiety is a major form of suffering perhaps due to unresolved hatred, pervasive sadness, or other issues.

The mind which is filled with ill will, craving, indifference, fear, and anxiety, is not liberated.

My analitical mind looks for the physical/verbal manifestations of these traits to deduce whether one is liberated or unawakened.

If the way I think is incorrect then I look forward to being liberated from such thought sometime in my future.

NB: I hope the Chinese don't do too much damage in Tibet.

Edited January 11, 2013 by rockyysdt

[harryfrompattaya]

When I see monks eating in restaurants ( price per meal 300 - 500 person ) are these real monks or fake monks

[weary]

Most monks especially in Chiang Mai have been happy to talk and often quite like to talk in Thai-Lish. Speaking to a couple of young Thai monks in CM about my retreat experiences in Amaravati Temple UK where retreatants dont talk and are forbidden to use the internet or phones was met with disbelief and the opinion that the Jaoawat allowed this and it was important so that they could contact their families.

Worth noting that there are retreat centers/temples in Thailand, even in Chiang Mai, where the same rules apply. But since it is Thailand, they are usually not obsessive about it. I would assume that any type of emergency would bypass the rules temporarily in the UK as well. If not, it does indeed seem strange.

A balance must be struck between the need for deepening mindfulness, which would be the main point of a retreat, and concerns of the external world. I believe this balance will differ from place to place. A retreat without a serious attempt at observing silence would seem to me more like a break for relaxation, or a time for yet more conversations and indulging in content (important in its own right, but not synonymous with meditation practice, and can perhaps be achieved better under other circumstances) than conducive to genuine progress in insight.

Many Thais are uncomfortable with solitude and silence as they are used to a more active soundscape and constant social interactions.

The Abbots house or kuti is preserved as he left it with the calendar and clocks set to the time when he died and everywhere you hear the sound of brushes that have been made by the monks cleaning and sweeping the place with meditative intent. The monks dont seem to want to interact with visitors and I have never seen a more diligent or clean temple space in the whole of Thailand.

Sweeping leaves is a common chore combined with mindfulness in Thai temples focusing on dharma practice. I think those who seek temples like those of the forest master lineage are more inclined to go into the monkhood to practice the dharma rather than for other reasons.

More than one Tibetan master has said the retreat approach is 'the best way' to practice the Dharma.

I'd tend to agree. In the same way as if you'd want to master a musical instrument, diligent directed practice will get you there faster. For those who have the opportunity to go on extended retreats, I think it is the best way to progress. Householders like me will instead need to establish our practice from the basis of everyday life. I've decided not to renounce the worldly life and to try to integrate the dharma into it as skilfully as I can. It's likely a slower path, but then again, some say that practicing the dharma until liberation may well be something that requires many lifetimes, and while we're in this life we may not be able to accurately assess if we have what it takes at this stage or not...

I have heard Theravadins reject both the Mahayana and the Bodhisattva ideal because 1) they say the Buddha did not teach the Mahayana and 2) the idea of postponing one's personal liberation to help others is merely an attachment and hence, a defect. Both of these are incomplete views and wrong, frankly, and show clearly the distinction between the Theravada and Mahayana approaches.

I've decided to hold off worrying about those things until I get there, and just leave sectarian quibbles be - the risk of getting attached to dogma and identifying with a school and its old schisms, rather than just doing honest, open, investigative practice, seems like it could be a serious trap.

As for teachers, I am currently of the view that when we are in the right mindset, every single current formation and sensation we encounter is a valuable teacher, and if we open to them and observe them, we will hopefully gradually grow in wisdom.

(All views expressed subject to revision based on trial and error.)

[beautifulthailand99]

For a farang mindset I find Ajarn Sumedho talks very helpful and there is plenty on youtube to feed the mind.

[sabaijai]

I have heard Theravadins reject both the Mahayana and the Bodhisattva ideal because 1) they say the Buddha did not teach the Mahayana and 2) the idea of postponing one's personal liberation to help others is merely an attachment and hence, a defect. Both of these are incomplete views and wrong, frankly, and show clearly the distinction between the Theravada and Mahayana approaches.

I don't think either is true for the reasons you suggest.

Just to comment on the latter misconception, the bodhisattva concept is present in Theravada teachings. Here are some teaching examples from Access to Insight:

http://www.accesstoi...8&q=bodhisattva

In particular, Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay elucidates how sectarian elitists among Buddhist schools often take advantage of the arahant vs bodhisattva stereotypes to hard-sell their respective programmes, rather than looking at the two ideals in a historic literary context.

http://www.accesstoi...dhisattvas.html

I think 'reject' is too strong a notion in this case. It's just a different perspective. In Theravada, the individual never stops pursuing nibbana, but that doesn't mean not trying to help other beings get there, too. A special vow, in that case, is not needed.

From a conservative Theravada point of view, there is also a notion that until the fetters are gone, one's attempts to help others, and especially to teach others, are fettered. But I don't think most Theravadins believe that.

Likewise Mahayana proponents who suggest the Buddha never taught the arahant ideal would be mistaken as even if one accepts the later Mahayana texts, in all the earlier texts, the Buddha explicitly advocated arahantship. So it would appear that taking in the entire body of historical Buddhist literature, both ideals are present.

[Asiantravel]

numbers of laypeople are becoming disillusioned with or even hostile towards religion.

Yes, unfortunately in Thailand they have well and truly found their new religion-money and consumerism.

When I was in Chiang Mai I found they have a program at Mahachulalongkorn Rajavidyalaya Buddhist University called monkchat.

http://www.monkchat.net/

very sad but i guess another symbol of impermanence itself

Monks Lose Relevance as Thailand Grows Richer

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/world/asia/thai-buddhist-monks-struggle-to-stay-relevant.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

[sabaijai]

Like Phra Maha Wudhijaya Vajiramedhi says, what Thailand needs is not more monks, but more good monks.

[bankei]

When I see monks eating in restaurants ( price per meal 300 - 500 person ) are these real monks or fake monks

Could be real monks (as in properly ordained) that are not following the teachings. I have never seen a monk in a restaurant though.

[sabaijai]

I have seen monks eating in restaurants in Thailand many times, usually at the invitation of the restaurant, always before noon.

[Thaddeus]

When I see monks eating in restaurants ( price per meal 300 - 500 person ) are these real monks or fake monks

Could be real monks (as in properly ordained) that are not following the teachings. I have never seen a monk in a restaurant though.

Ever seen one in a bank?