Remedy For Dreadful Building Work?

[sms747]

We are buying a house being built on a moo baan in bkk, not a very expensive one but not the cheapest. While some of the standards are OK particularly tiling, others are just appalling. Worst I have noticed so far are the gaps around some of the windows, one has a 3/4 inch gap tapering up to about a 1/2 inch on a four foot window right through to the outside. Why they do not use spirit levels I don't know, it all seems to be done by eye leading to a mess.

I have told them in the past this cannot be filled with plastic filler and they agreed to do it properly. On calling in yesterday we see they have tried to fill it with latex but have given up as the area is just too large, even with bits of wood stuck in to help. Is there a fairly simple way to do this myself after with move in, any magic gap filler? I know they will just skim over it somehow, probably stuff it up with paper first.

Painting is also something they cannot seem to do without getting it all over walls where it should not be or running over places, looks like the blind have done some of it.

Edited October 30, 2012 by sms747

[meatboy]

if its on a moo ban you should have only paid a deposit,so when the house is finished make a list of all you want doing and dont pay the owner who will not pay the builders till its completed.also if every thing is covered for one yr.the owner[moo-ban] will generally hold back a certain amount,so if you have any more problems dont sign as good then builders will not receive whats owing to them. follow me?

[seajae]

Being a painter and decorator by trade I can associate with how you feel. The trades here are shockers purely because they are not tradesmen, no one is qualified. My wife bought a block of units and the work is disgusting, plumbing leaks in the ceilings, gaps around everything, nothing is level(walls, floor etc)and they do not acid wash(neutralize) bricks/cement so lime build up pushes all the paint off. I am in the process of fixing my wifes houses and I will not touch the units as they are just that bad, doors are that warped they will not close. Mate, thais like cheap, they dont want to pay for quality so every house looks like a dump after a couple of years due to the lack of proper workmanship.

Dennis

[sms747]

Thanks guys, yes i will make a list of faults but will be a long one, and not pay the balance until they do something. The internal doors are something to behold with rips along the grain making them all only fit for the skip. I will replace all them anyway. The mrs thinks it's great but you would if brought up in a shed. If only they took a bit more care and used spirit levels! Went to see houses costing 6 million and they were not much better and did not even have kitchens. I know it's best to get land and do your own build, but with our finances and in bkk not really on.

Just to add I went to a famous singers house in Saraburi a couple of years ago costing 7 mil. Even the toilet leaked all over the floor and the wall around the property was a disgrace, added to that she had silly fountains installed in the lounge, which of course leaked as well. So it's not just the poor who get done. I have been to houses that are very impressive in the country though built a low cost, so they can do it.

Edited October 30, 2012 by sms747

[PattayaPhom]

No need for those new fangled things like spirit levels, water tubes order of the day.........really, my house was built on this method and every wall etc is true.....you should have the window frame removed, then cemented to the correct size for the frame....yes the paint is another thing, have they never heard of dust sheets...or at least newspaper.....still a little vim and elbow grease can remedy this on most ocassions, happy moving in!

[transam]

No need for those new fangled things like spirit levels, water tubes order of the day.........really, my house was built on this method and every wall etc is true.....you should have the window frame removed, then cemented to the correct size for the frame....yes the paint is another thing, have they never heard of dust sheets...or at least newspaper.....still a little vim and elbow grease can remedy this on most ocassions, happy moving in!

Yep, that is the proper remedy BUT this will cost cash which the builder will not want to do. You must stand your ground here, or your Thai family.

[meatboy]

Thanks guys, yes i will make a list of faults but will be a long one, and not pay the balance until they do something. The internal doors are something to behold with rips along the grain making them all only fit for the skip. I will replace all them anyway. The mrs thinks it's great but you would if brought up in a shed. If only they took a bit more care and used spirit levels! Went to see houses costing 6 million and they were not much better and did not even have kitchens. I know it's best to get land and do your own build, but with our finances and in bkk not really on.

Just to add I went to a famous singers house in Saraburi a couple of years ago costing 7 mil. Even the toilet leaked all over the floor and the wall around the property was a disgrace, added to that she had silly fountains installed in the lounge, which of course leaked as well. So it's not just the poor who get done. I have been to houses that are very impressive in the country though built a low cost, so they can do it.

ours cost with the land 5mill.but in the uk it would have cost £500,000 we had a big list, but if you want to find faults it will take you a week.you will find after a few months cracks in the walls of the house dont worry thats nothing tub of wall putty will do the trick, if its in bkk and it was a cheap build dont expect our standads.you might find you will get stressed out have plenty of beer on hand

[ThaidDown]

If only they took a bit more care and used spirit levels!

I think that's a bit harsh. I've often seen them using spirit levels....

... to knock nails in.

[transam]

If only they took a bit more care and used spirit levels!

I think that's a bit harsh. I've often seen them using spirit levels....

... to knock nails in.

Correct, so the nails go in straight, we all know that. ............................

[dzocor55]

thais cant build, gonna start building my 3rd property soon and going to bring plasterers and bricklayers from england,it will be cheaper in the end,, friend of mine works for a very well known multi national building company and they are told not to employ thai people,they think they know it all and are a danger to themselves and the work is always sub standard

[cooked]

thais cant build, gonna start building my 3rd property soon and going to bring plasterers and bricklayers from england,it will be cheaper in the end,, friend of mine works for a very well known multi national building company and they are told not to employ thai people,they think they know it all and are a danger to themselves and the work is always sub standard

I sympathise, but this is illegal, a jealous Tahi could get you banned from Thailand.

[dave111223]

Just make sure you don't let the builder wear you down to accepting crap work; that's the normal strategy. They will try to convince you "that's just the way it is here" and "Thais accept that", some might, but many wouldn't. You've got the money and don't give it to them until it's done properly.

They'll try to make you feel like you are just a Farang d*ck who doesn't get it, but the truth is a lot of Thais can be real <deleted> about getting their build down properly, I've heard stories of Thai clients who forced the builders to replace half the laborers because they didn't wye politely enough when they were visiting the site! (And the builder complied!)

Example, here is the front roof of one house I'm in the process of building at the moment, yes it's sloped, and yes they pulling all the tiles off right and re-doing the steelwork, because they're not getting paid until it's straight, and I don't care how much of a douche they think I am, i'll tell them to re-do it 3 or 4 times if I have to.

Just make sure you keep a lot of money withheld for as long as possible.

It's pretty much a daily uphill battle trying to get things done properly, but you just have to keep fighting the good fight.

Edited October 30, 2012 by dave111223

[Ackybang]

Hello sms747, sorry to hear about your problems. About your first post - what sort of windows have they installed ? Aluminium, wood, or pvc frames ? It didn't seem very clear, and will change the way you will have to address the repair...

It's still an ongoing project, but as inexperienced as I used to be, I have ended up self building my house almost entirely by myself, and brought in general labourers only, supervising everything myself from below the ground up - working my own arse off, and getting my hands very dirty, because I have had so many bad experiences with Thai builders so far - from the village idiot, all the way up to 'professional' builders, referred by big companies / merchants. Generally, they have a different work ethic and standards / eye for detail to a Westerner. It's hardly surprising, considering the amount of money your average Joe will earn on contractual work, (If they're not Burmese or Cambodian, who normally earn less - a thai builder usually earns between 200 - 450 baht a day on average, depending on skill level) and is expected to be able to do everything, without supervision (and supply his own tools / safety gear) - instead of being able / allowed to specialise. Jack of all trades, and all that. That's not to say the West isn't full of cowboys aswell - (because it is), or that I haven't met a couple of good ones here also - older guys - not formally trained, but with good skills - honed over Years of on the job experience, with, and learning from former 'real' tradesmen. Unfortunately, most of the good ones are hard to pin down, because they're always busy. It would seem, any Tom, Dick and Harry can be taken on as a labourer these days, and then all of a sudden they think they're a qualified builder. Most contractors try and do everything as cheap as they can here - because they usually price up for materials and labour - and try and make a profit on both. There is also a massive shortage of labour in the building sector at the moment, so people are inclined to use whoever they can, regardless of experience. If you have the time to look - most doors here, cheap, and even some not so cheap, in all of the suppliers are usually very rough, under scrutiny - If you bought off plan, you could have worked out a deal for fittings, and chosen your own. Are you legally commited to buying ? If it was me, and the building was that bad from the start, I probably wouldn't buy.

[LennyW]

thais cant build, gonna start building my 3rd property soon and going to bring plasterers and bricklayers from england,it will be cheaper in the end,, friend of mine works for a very well known multi national building company and they are told not to employ thai people,they think they know it all and are a danger to themselves and the work is always sub standard

Utter <deleted>!!

[Langsuan Man]

thais cant build, gonna start building my 3rd property soon and going to bring plasterers and bricklayers from england,it will be cheaper in the end,, friend of mine works for a very well known multi national building company and they are told not to employ thai people,they think they know it all and are a danger to themselves and the work is always sub standard

Will it be cheaper before or after the local Thai tradesmen complain to Immigration about illegal workers taking jobs from Thais

LennyW has it correct

[PattayaPhom]

There are cowboy bulders the world over and Thailand does have its fare share, just look at any site, whole families working with wifey mixing and carrying. Thats why apprenticeships were invented so you learnt the trade, pay peanuts get monkeys springs to mind. There are good builders here and I have been lucky enough to have our house built, 6 years down the line its still standing without any major problems, in fact none to talk about..........however I can see properties that were built 3 years ago and are in a right state already. In the OPs case, it begs the question that if workmanship that is visiable is at such sub standard, what horror stories lye beneath???

[davejones]

The obvious answer is not to use builders/workmen that are unqualified. Pay a little extra and get decent tradesmen. They do exist.

[sms747]

The obvious answer is not to use builders/workmen that are unqualified. Pay a little extra and get decent tradesmen. They do exist.

Does not apply if you are buying from a site build

[sms747]

Hello sms747, sorry to hear about your problems. About your first post - what sort of windows have they installed ? Aluminium, wood, or pvc frames ? It didn't seem very clear, and will change the way you will have to address the repair...

They are aluminium frames. The mrs decided to buy when I was away and looking at the show house was not inspiring, exterior walls already cracked away from the house. Mr forman explained that was due to the lorries going by! Any complaint just seems to get brushed aside, they thought i was crazy having a double wall installed downstairs to add a bit of sound insulation. Anyway at my age if it keeps her happy i am not that bothered, but i do want to get it weatherproof at least! If I start to interfere too much the old loss of face comes into play so i will be giving the list of faults to the wife and let her sort it out.

[Ackybang]

Hi sms747, I'm not an expert by anymeans, but I will try to give you the best advice I can - I'm sure there must be some real qualified tradesmen on this site who could perhaps assist you further, and plenty of forums on the net available, and I'm quite happy to stand corrected if my advice is wrong, or not the best way of addressing your problems.

Firstly, I would stress that regardless of what repairs you mark down, I would try to be present as much as possible when they're being undertaken - not to lose your rag, or bark orders, but to gently affirm your position as a customer. I would advise or woo the foreman to put his best, most experienced guys on it, being such the good bloke he is. This won't invoke any losing of face, and it's not rocket science - you are quite within your bounds to question what the builders are doing, and the methods they are going to employ - give your own input aswell in a congenial, tactile manner, you know exactly what you want, or as near as dam_n it. To leave wifey to it would probably be to open yourself up to compromise, as most Thai people don't like to make a fuss.

In terms of your windows, ascertain first - is it the rendering at fault, or the windows themselves. If the windows are true, take out all the ones you're not completely happy with, and then you can correct them all in one go. As they are aluminium - (I don't know if they're standard ready made off the shelf products / sizes, or have been made on site) - they are saveable, and can be dismantled quite easily, the frames, once simply unscrewed from their rawlplugs can be completely removed - your only loss will be silicone sealant. The remedy is to get the best plasterer on site, to score the offending vertical / horizontal axis back far enough for the new coat to adhere, (here the standard is to allow for plastering 2cm from the face of the concrete pour) and replaster the offending window openings square, or as near as possible to plumb. It doesn't have to be bang on, you can allow for a slight margin of error - a couple of mil is okay, and can be mitigated with sealant. A good plasterer could make corrections like this fairly quickly, and confidently.

Some handy thai building phrases for you, to help you explain - say them phonetically.

Builder - 'Chaang'

Windown opening - 'Chong nah dtang'

To measure, and make square, pertaining to plastering - 'Jap siem'

To plaster - 'Chaap'

Straight - 'Drong'

Square, as in right angled - 'Chaak'

Really, you shouldn't paint over new render for quite a few weeks, as far as I'm aware, but your windows could be reinstalled rather quickly, if it was me, I'd probably wait for a week, to allow for cracking / filling. If you want real assurance of lasting weather proofing, make sure they use a high quality silicone sealant, or better still polyurethane, it is more expensive, but at the same time much more durable, and expands / contracts with temperature fluctuations much better than silicone, usually, which can be prone to dry out and crack over time.

If your exterior walls are cracking away from the house, I would doubt it's to do with lorries. This could be due to subsidence, building too quickly on landfill / backfilled land without taking into account foundation or footing issues, or the walls / brickwork not tied in together with metal. Usually 6mm for bricks, and 9mm for lintels here. It's hard to tell without looking, but if I did look, I could probably tell you straight away.

As far as all the other issues go with fittings etc, if you want them changed, perhaps go with the builder to choose them yourself.

Sorry I can't be of any more help, but if there is anything you would like to ask, I'm ok.

I'm actually off to Laos tomorrow for a visa run / r 'n' r, but might actually be passing through Bangers in a couple of weeks, to sort out some stuff at the embassy, on my way to Samui. I'm not too sure of your timeframe, but if I am passing you, I would be more than happy to have a look for you, give you an honest opinion, and assit you squaring the builders away. My spoken Thai is more or less fluent, as is my Laos, and my Cambodian is passable too. Your most welcome to PM me if you think I might be of some help. My fees are very reasonable too - Free. Whatever you like, man - I wish you the best of luck.

[sms747]

Thanks very much for that reply Ackybang, much appreciated. Will certainly send you a PM if I think a second opinion is needed

[meatboy]

as the op stated the house is being built on a moo-ban,they have their own teams of builders so getting anyone from outside is a no no.as i said earlier make a list and get them to sort out what you want doing and dont pay until they do.all of our faults were nothing major,its best if you and your wf are on sight to see that the work is carried out,dont leave the wf.on her own.have the owners of the moo-ban got an office if so go along with your complaints and tell them you will not pay until you get some sort of satisfaction.as you stated the build is in bkk.can you give us an idea of the cost.good luck.

[Ackybang]

I completely agree with meatboy - let their builders sort it out - it is their responsibility entirely.

That doesn't mean yours (especially yours), or anyone elses opinion is to be discounted, or you are to be fobbed off with substandard repairs, or blinded by unquantified lies.

Getting someone to have a look, and arming yourself with some knowledge is by no means detrimental - completely the opposite. It's no big conspiracy - for all they know, you or your wife could be a fully qualified builder, or both have a visiting qualified / interested but impartial relative, but nevertheless knowledgable - who happens to speak Thai like we're speaking English... Normally any building work is prone to a bit of 'snagging' at the end, but any tradesman worth his salt wouldn't put out massively shoddy work in volume.

The angle I was coming from was more about having someone to mediate, with at least a little knowledge of the nature of repairs to be undertaken, and someone who can actually communicate exactly what you want done, in the fashion it should be done, aswell as impartially allaying any queries or misgivings on both sides, to avoid frustrations trying to communicate in pidgeon English and sign language. Judging on the context of the post, and the standard of the workmanship you described, aswell as their methods to rectify the problems sofar, it might actually not be enough to tell them to 'fix' it, if you / they don't actually know what needs doing, or how to do it properly.

I am perhaps being a little presumptuous, for all I know the op could be a master builder, and speak Thai fluently, or the builders at hand might be experts that speak English perfectly. I'm all up for everyone helping each other out as an agenda. Again - I hope it all works out well.

I just thought, are your doors stained, or painted ? For the sake and at the cost of a bit of time, filler and sanding work wonders if they are just to be painted. If you want beautiful stained doors - out where I live, they are just as cheap, or just a little more, to have made by a craftsman, in very nicely grained wood to a much higher standard of workmanship than in the suppliers. Many smaller communities usually have a carpenter that can knock you up something nice, if you would care to look, or if your wife might know someone, I would highly recommend it as an option.

[seajae]

new cement/plaster render work needs to dry out completely before painting over it or you seal in all the moisture which in turn will push off all the paint eventually(lime build up behind the paint). The cracking is caused by the fact that they do not let anything dry before they continue so all the moisture is sealed in the mortar between bricks, the cement columns and the rendered walls, vibration(trucks driving past etc) causes them all to let go because they are still soft, in a lot of cases these walls are unsafe and can collapse completely. The thais simply try to do everything at once and do not follow any building codes at all. In my wifes unit her doors were that bad if you ran your hand over them it would rip off your skin, I told her they all needed replacing but she will not do anything because it is the thai way. I have now refused to have anything to do with them as they are simply a heap of crap that have been stuck together as a money spinner by the land owner and would be condemned in Australia. All my painting and work gear arrives here next week and I am going to reset the ceilings and walls in our house, add a new kitchen & bedrom then repaint it inside and out using quality paint. The thais simply refuse to pay anyone to do all the work properly but as a tradesman I refuse to live in a shit heap that is only a few years old so I will fix it up completely.

Dennis

[meatboy]

new cement/plaster render work needs to dry out completely before painting over it or you seal in all the moisture which in turn will push off all the paint eventually(lime build up behind the paint). The cracking is caused by the fact that they do not let anything dry before they continue so all the moisture is sealed in the mortar between bricks, the cement columns and the rendered walls, vibration(trucks driving past etc) causes them all to let go because they are still soft, in a lot of cases these walls are unsafe and can collapse completely. The thais simply try to do everything at once and do not follow any building codes at all. In my wifes unit her doors were that bad if you ran your hand over them it would rip off your skin, I told her they all needed replacing but she will not do anything because it is the thai way. I have now refused to have anything to do with them as they are simply a heap of crap that have been stuck together as a money spinner by the land owner and would be condemned in Australia. All my painting and work gear arrives here next week and I am going to reset the ceilings and walls in our house, add a new kitchen & bedrom then repaint it inside and out using quality paint. The thais simply refuse to pay anyone to do all the work properly but as a tradesman I refuse to live in a shit heap that is only a few years old so I will fix it up completely.

Dennis

agree with you 100%,my wf.spent 20yrs.in the uk.so she doesnt take shit of anyone,but what amazes me is the house's on our moo-ban are all between 2.2-5mill.bht.80% thai owned yet its only my mrs.that cleans the windows every month,wipes the window frames,brushes up the leaves in the garden every day,and cleans inside every day.most of the thai owned are like rubbish tips,windows and doors black instead of white and they have never seen any paint at all not even some dirty marks that need touching up,yet most have got cars in their drives that are cleaned at least twice a week,and have dogs and cats that shit in their gardens every day,maybe they should live in their cars.we wont have anyone who says they can cut our grass.