Are Thai Ghosts/spirits Different ?

[KarenBravo]

Not gullible, but, totally programmed by his upbringing. Reincarnation is the same as ghosts. Imaginary.

lol

What about Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Theresa?

Let me make my position clear.

Ghosts, God, gods and any other imaginary friends are tripe.

When you die you're gone. Cease to exist. Oblivion.

Anything else is superstitious, egocentric nonsense.

[sirchai]

Thai ghosts are very different to their counterparts in Europe or somewhere else.

It happened in a village near the one where my wife's coming from. Two younger men died in accidents on a Songkran day. One on a motorbike, the other guy hit a tree with his pick up.

Everybody was scared shirtless, a solution was found that made perfect sense. All the villagers who had sons built straw puppies, nailed them in front of their places with a sign saying there aren't any men/male.

To top that, they even painted boys fingernails and did some make up stuff, to fool the ghost.

Thai ghosts are so clever that they can read signs written in Thai, but obviously too stupid to "find boys wearing Make-up."

Guess the difference is that German ghosts can't read Thai...-----

[KarenBravo]

It's also considered unlucky to own property at the intersection of a T-junction.

Apparently, the ghost comes up the road and fails to turn, ending up in your house.

Ghosts are why the Thais give their children nicknames of ugly things like "frog" and "pig".

This is to fool the ghost into not spiriting away these children.

Seems Thai ghosts are not too bright.

[partington]

Not a single shred of evidence has been seen for the existence of ghosts. Might as well believe in real witches, hob-goblins and father Xmas.

Well I'm certainly not arguing in favor of believing in any particular non-mainstream phenomenon.

My point is simply to advocate for the scientific spirit of keeping an open mind so that you can do your best to accurately interpret new incoming data and thus be in a better position to revise your previously mistaken beliefs.

Unless you don't mind being stuck behind the curve when the next big paradigm shift comes along.

BTW the use of the passive tense in "not a single shred of evidence has been seen" begs the question "by whom"?

Many many professional scientists believe in many many things they don't have hard proof for, why should the rest of us be any different?

You did say that you think "and that much phenomena is actually manifested as a result of intensely-felt shared beliefs by groups of people."

But no-one would argue about that - group hallucination, panic and shared beliefs re-inforcing imagined perceptions are well documented and understood.

The question is: are ghosts REAL. Do they exist outside the minds of those who imagine they see them?

I would say evidence for this is completely and absolutely lacking, despite much searching using both human senses, and technological additions to human senses.

The argument that human minds cannot experience all of reality is actually a reason to strongly distrust the experiences of those few people who claim to have seen ghosts. Are their brains "special", so they can see more reality than mine, or are they victims of the illusions we have all experienced and science well understands?

If you think they "see more" where's your evidence? Why do you believe this?

Yout belief in this argument, as KarenBravo pointed out, is also grounds for believing in literally everything that anyone claims to be real, from water divining to unicorns. You can't just say humans don't see all of reality so anything can be true.

You wouldn't trust someone who used this argument to convince you to fly in a plane they'd made which is powered by angels. Why not..? "You should keep an open mind, as you can't see all of reality...?"

My point is , imperfect or not, you use your mind as it is to judge the reality around you, how true something is likely to be, how safe, how reasonable. And the way you use your mind to decide how safe a car journey you are about to go on is, or how real ghosts are, is the SAME way, not different.

[cmsally]

What is true or real depends on your experiences. In my case I have seen or experienced ghosts multiple times. I have also had other things happen in a variety of shape or form - very often based on premonitions.

Are these real, well yes to me they are, but my sense of reality is maybe far different to some other peoples.

Do I care if people disbelieve me; of course not. Everybody is entitled to their views which are going to be largely based on their own experiences.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

So, to take one example of someone I admire - the Dalai Lama - is he weak-minded or gullible, according to your enlightened self?

What about Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Theresa?

What about them? Not taking the piss, just trying to understand your point. None of the three you mention would have much agreement about higher levels of reality.

But I agree that all three are very likely to have a more accurate picture of such than most people, including myself for sure.

Well, in that case, let's keep an open mind

Yes, let's exactly my point. I don't know how you define "witch", but if it's "a female human with powers that we don't understand whose belief system doesn't agree with the mainstream religion of her background culture" - I'm sure that there have been and still are thousands of those walking around.

When you die you're gone. Cease to exist. Oblivion.

Anything else is superstitious, egocentric nonsense.

Well that's your culturally programmed "reality", pretty difficult to prove. Personally I agree, but only given the mainstream definition of "you".

But it's pretty well proven by higher-level physics that there are a lot more levels of dimensions to our reality than the human mind may grasp, and I know very few people that can understand their underlying mathematical models, so I don't claim to have much understanding on those proposed hypotheses of reality, and pretty much stick to my immediate sense-perceptions.

The difference is I make no claim that those latter are in any way "real" in any abstract sense. Just because I see a Pee Bawp on night in the woods of Surin, doesn't mean I'd actually believe that what I was seeing is accurately described by the local mythology.

[bina]

just as an aside, thai ghosts do not travel overseas, nor are they the same as 'farang' ghosts /et al.

and they dont bother with non thais either (language barrier? , food not aroi mak mak?)

either way, thats what (thai)hubby says...ghosts are one thing, then there is the grouping of 'everything else' from minor gods to angel types...

regardless, thai ghost movies (nang pee) are infinitely more fun and interesting and scary then farang movies...

bina

hubby btw believes in ghosts much more then he believes that there is one god sitting in the sky telling us we should keep kosher and not rip toilet paper or turn on lights after shabbat starts on friday night...

bina

israel

[BigJohnnyBKK]

just as an aside, thai ghosts do not travel overseas, nor are they the same as 'farang' ghosts /et al.

and they dont bother with non thais either (language barrier? , food not aroi mak mak?)

Great post, funny and informative, great comment on the more mainstream superstitions too.

Supernatural beings don't bother with anyone who truly doesn't believe in them.

However IMO it's quite possible that that fact works out just as much to our (unbelievers') disadvantage as to our advantage.

[OZEMADE]

Gosh, I’ve seen plenty of Ghosts when I’ve been on the Spirits. Sorry I could not help myself.

[h90]

PS. Belief in ghosts and spirits is for the weak-minded and superstitious.

Weak-minded? Don't make me laugh!

.......and the gullible.

So, to take one example of someone I admire - the Dalai Lama - is he weak-minded or gullible, according to your enlightened self?

He wants his 3000 slaves back...I would be angry as well if they kick me out of a dictatorship.

[Beetlejuice]

One night back in medieval times when I was 7 years old, I was staying at my grandparent’s house.

During the night I thought I was seeing ghosts in my room, but it fact it was just a few moving shadows of some trees that were blowing about in the wind outside the window. Unable to sleep and in fear I ran into my grandparent’s bedroom and spent the rest of the night sleeping in their bed.

The next morning my grandfather asked me if I was OK and then said to me; "always remember, the dead can never do you harm, it`s only the living that can hurt you" Never has there been such a truer statement and from that day on, I was never again afraid of ghosts.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Q: How does the Dalai Lama order a hamburger?

A: I'll have one with everything please. . .

[kblaze]

One night back in medieval times when I was 7 years old, I was staying at my grandparent’s house.

During the night I thought I was seeing ghosts in my room, but it fact it was just a few moving shadows of some trees that were blowing about in the wind outside the window. Unable to sleep and in fear I ran into my grandparent’s bedroom and spent the rest of the night sleeping in their bed.

The next morning my grandfather asked me if I was OK and then said to me; "always remember, the dead can never do you harm, it`s only the living that can hurt you" Never has there been such a truer statement and from that day on, I was never again afraid of ghosts.

Was your grandfather John Wayne Gacy?

As for the OP; You tell us this difference between Thai and Western ghosts, then ask for the difference. This is not the right way to ask questions.

Edited October 31, 2012 by kblaze

[BigJohnnyBKK]

You tell us this difference between Thai and Western ghosts, then ask for the difference. This is not the right way to ask questions.

If people actually asked questions here the way they're supposed to TV.com couldn't support itself; there'd be very little traffic here, everything is the same stuff being endlessly rotated through around and around.

[Cobalt60]

" I couldnt get out of bed darling, ghost no let me" . "jing jing". "yes really am serious"

So next time you need a lie in bed and dont fancy getting up.....there you have it :-)

[theblether]

@KarenBravo

Witches do exist, and they cause a lot of damage in same cases, Witch Doctors, Voodoo etc all rely upon some superstitious hold over an ignorant population and they can cause death and destruction.

ps I once dated a White Witch, ( and I'm not joking ), and I was passingly interested in what the point of it was, which I think ended up being no point, just a harmless hobby however!! I did learn two things from it............one sexual ( mind your own business ) and....another thing that stuck in my mind.

White Witches recognize the symbolism of man as a destructive force, they recognize that man has to find a niche to make himself look important and bring along the symbols of power, hence the vestments in the Catholic church, the OTT dress uniforms on Generals etc.

The way it was explained to me was if a female witch had to cut up a frog she would grab a kitchen knife and do it in........the Wizard would have to go buy a mystical multi engraved titanium tipped blessed by supernatural powers knife in a fancy wooden box, don a cape, light some candles, prance about a bit then do the frog in.

End result dead frog.......different methods.

[cmsally]

" I couldnt get out of bed darling, ghost no let me" . "jing jing". "yes really am serious"

So next time you need a lie in bed and dont fancy getting up.....there you have it :-)

That can happen:

http://www.soundsleeping.org/sleeping-disorders/sleep-paralysis.htm

[Beetlejuice]

One night back in medieval times when I was 7 years old, I was staying at my grandparent’s house.

During the night I thought I was seeing ghosts in my room, but it fact it was just a few moving shadows of some trees that were blowing about in the wind outside the window. Unable to sleep and in fear I ran into my grandparent’s bedroom and spent the rest of the night sleeping in their bed.

The next morning my grandfather asked me if I was OK and then said to me; "always remember, the dead can never do you harm, it`s only the living that can hurt you" Never has there been such a truer statement and from that day on, I was never again afraid of ghosts.

Was your grandfather John Wayne Gacy?

As for the OP; You tell us this difference between Thai and Western ghosts, then ask for the difference. This is not the right way to ask questions.

Quite right.

The OP first tells us the difference between Thai and Western ghosts and then asks the difference. What`s his game, I have to ask myself?

It`s these exact same questions that started World War 2.

[Cobalt60]

" I couldnt get out of bed darling, ghost no let me" . "jing jing". "yes really am serious"

So next time you need a lie in bed and dont fancy getting up.....there you have it :-)

That can happen:

http://www.soundslee...p-paralysis.htm

Good link, thanks, I learned something there.

One thing I have learned over the years, is to not take the piss when a ghost episode is being re told, its just not worth the grief.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Cobalt60

[KarenBravo]

@KarenBravo

Witches do exist, and they cause a lot of damage in same cases, Witch Doctors, Voodoo etc all rely upon some superstitious hold over an ignorant population and they can cause death and destruction.

ps I once dated a White Witch, ( and I'm not joking ), and I was passingly interested in what the point of it was, which I think ended up being no point, just a harmless hobby however!! I did learn two things from it............one sexual ( mind your own business ) and....another thing that stuck in my mind.

White Witches recognize the symbolism of man as a destructive force, they recognize that man has to find a niche to make himself look important and bring along the symbols of power, hence the vestments in the Catholic church, the OTT dress uniforms on Generals etc.

The way it was explained to me was if a female witch had to cut up a frog she would grab a kitchen knife and do it in........the Wizard would have to go buy a mystical multi engraved titanium tipped blessed by supernatural powers knife in a fancy wooden box, don a cape, light some candles, prance about a bit then do the frog in.

End result dead frog.......different methods.

Yes, yes, yes. I know there are people who claim to be witches; followers of the Wicca religion.

When I mentioned witches, I meant the classic kind that wave a wand and can turn you into a frog. The type that rides broom-sticks through the air.

[I Like Thai]

PS. Belief in ghosts and spirits is for the weak-minded and superstitious.

My belief is that the person with the weak mind is the person who cannot see further than what they were taught to believe. They stick to this belief come what may and never try to expand their own thinking.

Not gullible, but, totally programmed by his upbringing. Reincarnation is the same as ghosts. Imaginary.

Maybe this applies to you,

Thai ghosts are very different to their counterparts in Europe or somewhere else.

To top that, they even painted boys fingernails and did some make up stuff, to fool the ghost.

Thai ghosts are so clever that they can read signs written in Thai, but obviously too stupid to "find boys wearing Make-up."

Halloween is an ancient Celtic Festival that goes back thousands of years. It originated in Ancient Britain and Ireland.

The tradition of dressing up as ghosts was in order for the living to fool the real ghosts into believing that they were also ghosts, so that they wouldn't harm them.

It's also considered unlucky to own property at the intersection of a T-junction.

Apparently, the ghost comes up the road and fails to turn, ending up in your house.

Ghosts are why the Thais give their children nicknames of ugly things like "frog" and "pig".

This is to fool the ghost into not spiriting away these children.

Seems Thai ghosts are not too bright.

http://users.wirefire.com/magick/new_page_12.htm

Universally, the Crossroads is a place of spiritual power, but also danger, where ghosts, malevolent fairies, the old gods and goddesses of Europe and Africa, as well as devils are thought to lurk. The Crossroads, that place where two roads intersect, now exist everywhere, of course, but forks in the road weren’t as commonplace in the ancient world.

The Indian god Bhairva was said to guard the Crossroads at the edge of each town which were often littered with stone phalluses and statues to represent him as the watcher of boundaries between worlds and to honor opening doorways to new information from other places. In Germany, the Crossroads are called Geisterwege or “Ghost Roads.”

The Goddess of the underworld and sorcery Hecate (also the “Queen of Ghosts”) held dominion over the Crossroads in Ancient Greece. This probably originated from her older role as Goddess over the wilderness and unclaimed areas. The Greeks often placed offerings of “Hecate cakes” at the Crossroads to the Goddess, sometimes marked by a single candle so Hecate could find her way in the dark and evolved into candles on birthday cakes.

In Africa, the Crossroads gods are varied and they go by many names such as Eshu, Legba, Ellegua, Ndumba, Pomba Gira and Nzila as those who open the way to the powers and teach wisdom. Hoodoo practices of the Mississippi Delta rely heavily upon the mystical and sometimes maligned powers of the Crossroads. Hoodoo associates the Crossroads with the Devil. However, the Hoodoo Devil is not exactly the same as the traditional Christian Devil. Instead, the Hoodoo Devil is more of a trickster spirit, wise and crafty but not really evil, more like a friend who has also gone down the wrong path.

Populations who are brought up on Hoodoo believe the Devil hangs out at the Crossroads, waiting for the right person to come along, to strike the right bargain, so he can steal the person’s immortal soul in exchange for a favor.

In the Crossroads ritual the bargain that is usually made is to learn a skill such as to play a musical instrument superbly, throw dice, sing, public speaking or preaching, and most popular to win in any kind of gambling. During the ritual, whatever object is wished to be mastered, the guitar, banjo, deck of cards or dice are brought to the Crossroads at midnight, or just before dawn for three to nine nights in a row. Certain animals should appear, such as a bear, a black dog or cat, to let the person know his spell is beginning to work. On the last visit a large black man should materialize. The black man (not dark-skinned, but completely coal black) will ask to borrow the object brought to the Crossroads. He will then demonstrate how to properly use the item. When it is returned, the bearer will then be gifted with almost supernatural powers when it comes to the object, winning all games or becoming the greatest musician in the town and beyond. But often the person who sells his soul to the Devil at the Crossroads for sudden wins will often die tragically, or will have his winnings quickly taken away.

Because the Crossroads is land that belongs to no one it is an area that invites ghosts and other creatures that might not belong in the natural world such as vampires and demons. In Eastern Europe it is thought that vampires carry their shrouds to the Crossroads looking for fresh victims. Malefic fairies are also believed to haunt the Crossroads looking for lost souls to lure into the half-lit world of the Fairyland.

In England, gallows were built at the Crossroads where the condemned were later hung. This was done to confuse their ghosts, in case they decided to return and revisit those who took their lives. Suicide victims were also sometimes buried at the Crossroads so their spirits would not search for those who had wronged them in life. It was thought the four directions of the forked path would confuse them, to keep such restless souls from “walking.” Certain routes were used for funerals and called “corpse way” and sometimes “corpse cross.” Part of the funeral ritual was to rest the coffin at the Crossroads before heading on to the graveyard.

Some have suggested this is because the Crossroads form a Christian cross. But belief in the powers of the Crossroads predates Christianity by at least 1,000 years and occurs in cultures that are not Christian. India may be a source behind the European tales of the Crossroads when the Sanskrit-speaking Rom people, otherwise known as Gypsies, spread their legend and lore about the Crossroad’s occult powers. These European and African beliefs later informed Hoodoo practices and Voodoo rites in the United States. Ritual sweeping was also done at the Crossroads and become associated with witches. A few hundred years ago, the Irish thought witches met at the Crossroads to celebrate their sabbats.

The Roman god Mercury (or the Greek god Hermes) known for his slippery wit, deft intelligence and fertility also lorded over the Crossroads. The Greeks erected phallic statues at the Crossroads to honor Hermes (or Mercury), the god of travelers and to note the place were information was exchanged.

[KarenBravo]

You are totally beyond help.

I bet you believe in aromatherapy and astrology, too, don't you?

[I Like Thai]

@KarenBravo

Witches do exist, and they cause a lot of damage in same cases, Witch Doctors, Voodoo etc all rely upon some superstitious hold over an ignorant population and they can cause death and destruction.

ps I once dated a White Witch, ( and I'm not joking ), and I was passingly interested in what the point of it was, which I think ended up being no point, just a harmless hobby however!! I did learn two things from it............one sexual ( mind your own business ) and....another thing that stuck in my mind.

White Witches recognize the symbolism of man as a destructive force, they recognize that man has to find a niche to make himself look important and bring along the symbols of power, hence the vestments in the Catholic church, the OTT dress uniforms on Generals etc.

The way it was explained to me was if a female witch had to cut up a frog she would grab a kitchen knife and do it in........the Wizard would have to go buy a mystical multi engraved titanium tipped blessed by supernatural powers knife in a fancy wooden box, don a cape, light some candles, prance about a bit then do the frog in.

End result dead frog.......different methods.

Yes, yes, yes. I know there are people who claim to be witches; followers of the Wicca religion.

When I mentioned witches, I meant the classic kind that wave a wand and can turn you into a frog. The type that rides broom-sticks through the air.

This is where you have gone wrong in your thinking. You refer to the above as the "Classic Kind", This is what you have been programmed to believed by movies and television programmes.

This bears little relation to the meaning or importance of the existence of ghosts in the culture of a society. Ghosts in societies can play a very important role in how a society runs. This is what the importance of these ghosts hold. Not the ability to fly around on broomsticks.

[KarenBravo]

Actually, I am the one with the open mind. The "believers" of religion and superstition are the ones with closed minds.

When facts change the picture of our reality, I'm willing to alter my point-of-view.

This is diametrically opposed to the religious nuts and the superstitious.

No matter how many facts, or, lack of evidence you show them, they ignorantly cling to their beliefs and are not willing to change their minds.

It is no accident that all religions rely on "faith". In other words, belief without proof.

[I Like Thai]

You are totally beyond help.

I bet you believe in aromatherapy and astrology, too, don't you?

I don't know enough about them to rule them out, though they sound far fetched. But then, the use of Leeches in medicine was also so far fetched, that a few years ago you would have been laughed at if you suggested that Leeches were a valuable medical tool.

[KarenBravo]

This is where you have gone wrong in your thinking. You refer to the above as the "Classic Kind", This is what you have been programmed to believed by movies and television programmes.

This bears little relation to the meaning or importance of the existence of ghosts in the culture of a society. Ghosts in societies can play a very important role in how a society runs. This is what the importance of these ghosts hold. Not the ability to fly around on broomsticks.

Sheesh......scrub the word "witches" from my original post and substitute the word mermaids (far less controversial).

[BigJohnnyBKK]

My point is - if you question a given word's actual meaning and explore its origins, you often discover there is a world-view, an attitude behind it rather than an objective meaning. Personally I define the word "witch" in practice exactly as I did above, not just limiting it to the practitioners of Wicca. By defining it that broadly, I open the possibility that some people may accept that there may be some unknown or unexplored phenomena behind the "pigeonhole" children's-book and women-burning aspects of the term.

Other relevant examples are the words "pagan" or "magic", as well as "superstition" of course.

If you don't actually adhere to the originating world-view (e.g. in this case aren't a defender of a monotheistic religion) then you discover the word doesn't actually have any significant meaning anymore, much less its pejorative connotations.

From the point of view of someone who doesn't understand it, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

OT but BTW I feel the same way about words like "prostitute" "slut" "whore" "tramp" "promiscuous" "unfaithful" "kinky" "pervert" "polygamous" etc etc.

Edited October 31, 2012 by BigJohnnyBKK

[I Like Thai]

Actually, I am the one with the open mind. The "believers" of religion and superstition are the ones with closed minds.

When facts change the picture of our reality, I'm willing to alter my point-of-view.

(Rather than having an Open mind, you have a mind that has only 1 channel open. This is more often more dangerous than having a closed mind.)

This is diametrically opposed to the religious nuts and the superstitious.

No matter how many facts, or, lack of evidence you show them, they ignorantly cling to their beliefs and are not willing to change their minds.

(What Facts have you shown)

It is no accident that all religions rely on "faith". In other words, belief without proof.

Most things that people do and believe on a daily basis, they do so acting on faith. Everything you read, everything you see on TV. You simply choose to accept things are the way they seem to be. this is done on faith, rather than knowing yourself for 100% fact that it is true.

Edited October 31, 2012 by I Like Thai

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Actually, I am the one with the open mind.

That may be so - I'm waiting for more evidence before making up my mind.

The "believers" of religion and superstition are the ones with closed minds.

When facts change the picture of our reality, I'm willing to alter my point-of-view.

This is diametrically opposed to the religious nuts and the superstitious.

No matter how many facts, or, lack of evidence you show them, they ignorantly cling to their beliefs and are not willing to change their minds.

It is no accident that all religions rely on "faith". In other words, belief without proof.

In fact I have no interest in trying to convince people to change their beliefs if I think they do no harm, there's enough harmful falsehoods in the world that need fixing first.

And note that the non-religious use of the power of faith has many practical applications. If something as powerful as that can be used for good then I say use it, even if you don't understand the phenomenon from a scientific POV.

[KarenBravo]

In fact I have no interest in trying to convince people to change their beliefs if I think they do no harm, there's enough harmful falsehoods in the world that need fixing first.

That's good. At least you are not like the majority of religions which in the past would kill you in the attempt.

Do you know how hard it is to be an atheist in some parts of the world? America included.