Gaza Crisis: Un's Ban Calls For Ceasefire After Israeli Airstrike Kills Civilians

[uptheos]

Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians

.

Hmmmmmm. Slight bit of difference when Palestinians ( not just Hamas ) fire crude non guided rockets, and the Israelis use laser guided high explosive bombs. Which have more "killing" power?

Why is it that when Syria uses bombs against the population it is a crime against humanity, according to the US, yet when Israel does exactly the same thing, the US say it's OK?

Unfortunately, as you and the whole world knows, Hamas place their weaponry among the civilian populations. In order to take them out some civilians will die, Hamas will joyfully parade the dead shoulder high and statements like yours start to appear. Regarding Syria, it is purely indiscriminate and to date 40,000 Syrians have been massacred...how can you possibly compare?

Edited November 24, 2012 by uptheos

[Chicog]

Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians

.

I see we've been watching Netenyahu press conferences.

I don't need Netanyahu to tell me the obvious.

Of course you don't. It's pure coincidence you quoted exactly what he said on November 15th.

He added, "The terrorists are committing a double war crime. They fire at Israeli civilians, and they hide behind Palestinian civilians

Edited November 24, 2012 by Chicog

[Steely Dan]

How do you know what technology will be available to the Arabs in 200 years time? As I said, time is on the side of the Arabs, not the Israelis.

Just the increase in Israeli Arabs will see the Jews become a minority in the future.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for technology to complete what the jihaddists have so far failed to do. Besides which most of the military technology that's invented comes from Israel. Perhaps Hamas could indeed look to purchase an Iron Dome system to protect their civilians from their own rockets.

[bina]

you know, i started reading and then skipped to the end.

i was one of those folks sitting in an area with 200 women babies men including religious jews and religious moslem women and several guys from our work crew on friday and again on saturday when we had 'azakot' (sirens) for missiles , while i was the duty manager at the hotel... our hotel does not have a 'merhav mugan' (protected area) nor are we close to our bomb shelters that we have in my neighborhood. my daughter and her friends in their teenage dorm area of the kibbutz did run to the (now open, previously closed) bomb shelters.

friends from down south who work with the thais there also have no bomb shelter and no merhav mugan. also my daughter's ethiopian boyfriend's family, poor, primitive, living in an ashkelon ethiopian apartment slum. neither do the families in abu gosh, the large arab /circassian city across from us. nor does ein rafa , ein nekuba (arab israeli villages).. and surprisingly enough , when missiles fell in the jerusalem area, twice they fell on houses in a palestinian village, with no injuries except to property. but they dont have any protection either. neither do any of the beduin settlements nor does rahat the main beduin city of large villas and small tin shacks.

lots of people came to our hotel from the south with nothing but themselves when missiles fell in their yards. two women due to give birth any day, with husbands called up to the army. one woman, due to give birth and with an autistic child and two other babies, the autistic child beserk from the sirens and boom boom boom, which, btw, we heard also here up on the mountain.

my son was not called up but was put on 'wait and see' status.

everyone sits here and talks a lot of blablabla.... the gazians have no protection whatsoever; the hamas and all others haven't bothered to set up any kind of protection and they do have the money from rich sponsors of pro palestine , to do so. however, they just use it for military purposes. if anyone were to ask the arabs here, you would hear the same thing. many of our friends here from the arab villages and towns have relatives either in the west bank, or in gaza. and i can tell u what they think of gazians. (derogatory at best).

if any of you have been in situations where ua er being bombed, then you can talk politics. its always easier to talk nonsense when u are safe.

and to tell the truth, i asked my thai husband what he thinks, and what his cronies here think: he is much more of a hawk then me. he said: when attacked, attack back to kill. same as an animal that attacks you. defend to kill, not disable. 'a good snake is a dead snake' whereas my attitude is, catch the snake and move it to somewhere where it wont do damage to me.

and while i believe in dialogue, i have become cynical. they don't believe in dialogue. as a matter of fact, from personal experience, i can say that small children from east jerusalem, palestinian villages are violent from day one. they get hit with metal sticks by their teachers, punched by their fathers , and are raised in a violent society. violence breeds violence. not a willingness to negotiate or discuss in polite manners.

what can i say. this war is not over. just been put off for a while (its the election time again). arabs are a macho group and believe in an eye for an eye even if it kills the body. revenge is keeping face. so the cycle will just continue.

and as someone from abu gosh told me the other day when i asked her what she did when there was a siren, she said, 'what do u think? the missile can smell if someone is jewish or moslem?

here you all are just writing words and reading news. none of you actually knows (other then those who have been in war zones) what it feels like to hear a siren and sit and wait for the boom. nor do we like the idea that babies and children are in the same situation on the other side of the line. do you actually think that our sons and husbands don't think of their children when they see gazian children crying with fear, or suffering from shock, or a woman miscarries from the stress?

really it is useless to have threads like this to discuss things that even prime world leaders cant discuss without getting emotional, or make logical peaceful decisions. america had 9\11 and it was a major catastrophe, we live this catastrophe often, day in and day out and yet life goes on w/o fanfare. we still drink our lattes and live. and yet america and others outside the situation can sit back and criticize. wait until it happens to you and then see if u keep to the side you seem to choose now.

bina

tzuba

[Jingthing]

Bottom line: the light at the end of the tunnel is not quite visible.

As far as people talking about it, world leaders or online BS artists, well, the reality is the conflict has become one that for various historical reasons has become internationalized. I think that can't be helped, even when such chatter would obviously sound largely ridiculous/irrelevant to people in the middle of it.

There may be something going on in the Congo that impacts much more on many more lives at the same time, but if there is a flare up in the middle east, people will talk.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Jingthing

[folium]

How do you know what technology will be available to the Arabs in 200 years time? As I said, time is on the side of the Arabs, not the Israelis.

Just the increase in Israeli Arabs will see the Jews become a minority in the future.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for technology to complete what the jihaddists have so far failed to do. Besides which most of the military technology that's invented comes from Israel. Perhaps Hamas could indeed look to purchase an Iron Dome system to protect their civilians from their own rockets.

Technology only wins short wars, eg 1st Gulf War and opening stages of 2nd Gulf War. The longer a war goes on the advantage often swings behind the side with the motivation and ability to mobilize their society behind it rather than just possessing the best technology. Germany had far better technology than the Allies in WW2, Vietnam was won by a bunch of peasants with small arms, Afghanistan sees the deployment of low tech weaponry, home advantage and a steely determination which undermines fantastic technology. Asymmetric warfare with a long term perspective is a hard nut to crack even with the best technology in the world.

Iron Dome is a classic example of over reliance on technology. 80% funded by the US initially and with substantial sums since from Congress, it is another example of the US using Israel to develop and field test technology that will be deployed elsewhere. In the current Gazan conflict Iron Dome claims an 85% strike rate, but sadly 15% still kills as 6 Israeli citizens dead underlines. The logic of deploying a $50,000 missile to knock down an $800 Qassam (the logic does get better with a Fajr-5 though) is troubling. Classic case of guns or butter, though of course the US does get a well trialled piece of technology in return, and it is interesting to mull on how else Israel could spend such amounts Though of course the US has little interest in funding social programmes in Israel. Next year will probably see the deployment of Iron Dome's successor even more expensive programme, Magic Wand, again largely funded by US generosity.

To date Israel has been the recipient of $115billion of military aid. That buys a lot of kit and R&D in anyone's book.

Funny though where Israeli (US funded) kit ends up. Since 2005 Israel has been the second largest military hardware supplier to China and has more recently signed deals with Russia to sell enhanced drones. Seems like a good use of US taxpayer money......

Technology to address the symptoms of a conflict does little to address the root causes and sadly this flare up in Gaza will probably just set the stage for the next one unless Israel and the Palestinians wake up and smell the coffee of a changed landscape in the Middle East courtesy of the "Arab Spring" and its subsequent fallout.

Edited November 24, 2012 by folium

[geriatrickid]

I note the comments on the "revenge of the cradle", but there are a couple factors ignored. The land has only so much in resources to support a population, with the two limiting factors water and arable land. Even if one day peace comes to the region it will never last until the issue of water is resolved. Gaza has limted water resources and no active environmental promotion activity. The end result is a water pollution problem and the destruction of the physical assets that help retain water.

There is a general consensus that along with increased economic stability and improved standards of living, birth rates decease. This is why it is in Israel's best interests to see a measure of economic opportunity take hold in Gaza and the West Bank. People who have something to lose and see a future are less likely to embark on activities that put that at risk. If one looks at the Palestinian diaspora, a great many of them provide the intellectual capital that drives the economy of other arab countries. They also have smaller families. My friend was born in Kuwait where his father was a banker. He's an only child and has a nice trust fund. Another guy who lived in my building had a similar situation, was well educated and was in to music with no care for politics. He just wanted to be happy. His sister was quite the free spirit. No hijab for her and no acceptance of a servile role anyone would try impose on her. Quite a contrast in attitudes between these guys and the unemployed angry males and the dependent chattel status of women that dominates the Gaza demographic.

The only way out of the missile strikes is to give people something worth preserving, opportunities and hope. It was there at one time, after the withdrawal from Gaza, but Hamas and others squandered the opportunities, destroying the agricultural infrastructure left behind and allowing suicide bombers to pass at border points, which resulted in their restrictions. These people were not the majority of Gazans, but they screwed it up for those that wanted a better life and were willing to make incremental progress. It will be up to the Gazans to break free of the dominate political feud between Fatah and Hamas and to say no to countries that wish to fight a proxy war with Israel. How and when that happens is in large part up to the western and gulf state aid donors. It will require a large dose of reality to all of the groups involved and it may eventually require a foreign presence to allow the building of infrastructure and the prevention of foreign groups with a desire to promote war. If Turkey and Egypt can ever adopt a neutral position, they might very well fulfill that role.

Edited November 24, 2012 by geriatrickid

[awayego]

Can we pause from debating, arguing, blaming and point-scoring for just one minute to reflect on the obscene reality of this and other conflicts and to pay respect to the memory of Omar Mashrawi, aged 11 months, who was killed in Gaza on 14th November. His death may serve to represent the many, far too many, innocents who are still dying as a result of man's inhumanity. He could have been Israeli or any other nationality - he didn't know.

(Photo Source: BBC)

[Samuimike1]

Cross talk on Gaza

[geriatrickid]

Cross talk on Gaza

It would be nice if Harry Fear had mentioned that one of the "babies" killed was due to a rocket fizzle that landed in Gaza.

What is also not mentioned is that a percentage of other rockets and other missiles fired from Gaza, fell in Gaza causing damage and death.

It's a taboo subject amongst all those that prefer to blame Israel.

[Kilgore Trout]

Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians

.

Hmmmmmm. Slight bit of difference when Palestinians ( not just Hamas ) fire crude non guided rockets, and the Israelis use laser guided high explosive bombs. Which have more "killing" power?

Why is it that when Syria uses bombs against the population it is a crime against humanity, according to the US, yet when Israel does exactly the same thing, the US say it's OK?

So if someone attacks you with a cricket bat and starts whacking you in the head with it with the intention of splitting your head open and spilling your brains all over the sidewalk; if you have a gun you shouldn't use it against them right, as that would be excessive force?

What do you expect the Israelies to do; make crude rockets like the ones being fired and shoot back?

Don't be naive; they retaliate with what they have. The palestinians know this.

When a scorpion bites the foot of a giant, he gets smashed. This is the rule of man.

Also, I see the Syrian thing differently, Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing. However, when Jews defend themselves against blatant attacks against innocent civilians, these muslim nations scream bloody murder. Hippocrites plain and simple.

[Chicog]

Also, I see the Syrian thing differently, Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing. However, when Jews defend themselves against blatant attacks against innocent civilians, these muslim nations scream bloody murder. Hippocrites plain and simple.

That's naive at best. Put simply, Israel makes sure its story gets out to the worlds media. Jew own a large swathe of the media industry. They simply aren't interested in Syria unless they have nothing else to print.

Inside the Arab world it is the main story other than Palestine, and has been since last year.

Why do you think Qatar hosted the newly formed Syrian government in exile and has asked them to name an ambassador?

Trust me, they aren't sitting on their hands here, it is Sunni vs Shia.

[Morch]

Gaza's ruling Hamas will not stop arming itself because only a strong arsenal, not negotiations, can extract concessions from Israel, the No. 2 in the Islamic militant group told The Associated Press in an interview Saturday.

The comments by Moussa Abu Marzouk, just three days after the worst bout of Israel-Hamas fighting in four years, signaled trouble ahead for Egyptian-brokered talks between the hostile neighbors on a new border deal.

Hamas demands that Israel and Egypt lift all restrictions on the movement of goods and people in and out of the Palestinian territory, which has been buckling under a border blockade since the Islamists seized the territory in 2007.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/back-school-gaza-after-israel-offensive

Obviously, hard to reconcile the first and third sentences, as far as Israel goes.

Makes a bit more sense if one bears in mind that Hamas got their own internal politics and upcoming elections. Pays to talk tough on matters relating to Israel:

The supreme leader of the Palestinian Islamic militant group Hamas has decided to step down, clearing the way for the movement to choose a new head for the first time in more than 15 years, two senior officials said Monday.

Khaled Mashaal told a recent meeting in Cairo of Hamas' leadership that he would not run in upcoming elections for the top position, said Izzat Risheq, a confidant of Mashaal who attended the gathering. Moussa Abu Marzouk, Mashaal's deputy, also confirmed the decision.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/hamas-head-mashaal-says-he-will-resign

[folium]

Also, I see the Syrian thing differently, Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing. However, when Jews defend themselves against blatant attacks against innocent civilians, these muslim nations scream bloody murder. Hippocrites plain and simple.

That's naive at best. Put simply, Israel makes sure its story gets out to the worlds media. Jew own a large swathe of the media industry.

Talking of naive, here we go with this old canard again.

Care to name a single major media company "Jew own" as you so charmingly put it? Clue, American-Jewish senior executives does not count as ownership. Most media companies are publicly quoted so ownership rests with shareholders rather than management. The classic exception of course is News International, but while Murdoch is many things no one yet has called him Jewish, though of course if there was some business advantage to be gained the wily chameleon would probably have few qualms about conversion!

[Kilgore Trout]

Also, I see the Syrian thing differently, Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing. However, when Jews defend themselves against blatant attacks against innocent civilians, these muslim nations scream bloody murder. Hippocrites plain and simple.

That's naive at best. Put simply, Israel makes sure its story gets out to the worlds media. Jew own a large swathe of the media industry. They simply aren't interested in Syria unless they have nothing else to print.

Inside the Arab world it is the main story other than Palestine, and has been since last year.

Why do you think Qatar hosted the newly formed Syrian government in exile and has asked them to name an ambassador?

Trust me, they aren't sitting on their hands here, it is Sunni vs Shia.

Claiming the media is controlled by Jews is one of the oldest tricks in the anti-semites book, all the way back to the the elders of zion.

Absolute crap, complete rubbish, you should really be ashamed of yourself.

Try to come back to reality and stop grasping at straws, geez....Jews control the media....the last refuge of a anti-semitic scoundrel.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Kilgore Trout

[bina]

i am waiting with baited breath to be told that we hold all the money, cause i sure as hell would like to have some.....

[geriatrickid]

Also, I see the Syrian thing differently, Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing. However, when Jews defend themselves against blatant attacks against innocent civilians, these muslim nations scream bloody murder. Hippocrites plain and simple.

That's naive at best. Put simply, Israel makes sure its story gets out to the worlds media. Jew own a large swathe of the media industry.

Talking of naive, here we go with this old canard again.

Care to name a single major media company "Jew own" as you so charmingly put it? Clue, American-Jewish senior executives does not count as ownership. Most media companies are publicly quoted so ownership rests with shareholders rather than management. The classic exception of course is News International, but while Murdoch is many things no one yet has called him Jewish, though of course if there was some business advantage to be gained the wily chameleon would probably have few qualms about conversion!

I find the conspiracy posts somewhat amusing as they ignore the importance of middle eastern ownership. It is also insulting to Arabs as a whole. Al-Walid Bin Talal is the Rupert Murdoch of media ownership in the Middle East,. His media group is far more influential and potent than any western media group. He is also the 3rd largest investor in Murdoch's News Corp (aka FOX). Of more interest is the large investment by Gulf State funds in Reuters Thomson. Some observers have argued that Reuters adopted an anti Israel position shortly after the investments.

Personally, I think the dominant presence of arab investors at Reuters was so that it could expand its footprint in the middle east. Reuters would not have been able to do that without an "arab face". The most recent example occurring in June 2012 with the buyout of Zawya. That being said, the overall premise of "jew" control is laughable because it makes an assumption that the media in the most populous countries in the world such as Indonesia, Brazil, India and China are controlled by "jews". News to me since , well, I reckon most sentient people will figure it out.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Scott
formatting

[johna]

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175620/tomgram%3A_oded_na%27aman%2C_is_gaza_outside_israel/?utm_source=TomDispatch&utm_campaign=d0c3bd55b1-TD_Na_aman11_25_2012&utm_medium=emai Edited November 26, 2012 by johna

[Jingthing]

http://www.tomdispat...utm_medium=emai

Good link. It's admirable that Israel remains a democratic society with free speech where such voices of dissent can be published and the issues raised can see the light of day ... and CHANGES in policies can be considered.

[mania]

http://www.tomdispat...utm_medium=emai

Good link. It's admirable that Israel remains a democratic society with free speech where such voices of dissent can be published and the issues raised can see the light of day ... and CHANGES in policies can be considered.

Yes true & a sign of a Free people who maintained their freedom.

He has been a member of Breaking The Silence since 2005

That an organization such as that exists is as you say admirable but by definition

the Silence created by bad government is sad to begin with.

I have read a few other things over the years & not surprisingly they were also written by ex-IDF soldiers.

Not unlike many US Veterans groups in the USA who speak out about what they consider illegal & useless

military actions by the US

So yes I agree it is good to see & a signature of people not completely suppressed.

It is not to be confused with a Government being just or fair. It is just a sign that ultimately the

people of such governments still retain, maintain, fight for their freedoms to speak.

In a totally controlled area that would not be possible. Regardless of whether that area is controlled by

a government inside or outside that area.

Edited November 26, 2012 by mania

[thaibeachlovers]

Hamas attacks Israel targeting Israeli civilians. Therefore, Hamas is committing the double war crime of using Palestinian civilians as human shields and deliberately targeting Israeli civilians

.

Hmmmmmm. Slight bit of difference when Palestinians ( not just Hamas ) fire crude non guided rockets, and the Israelis use laser guided high explosive bombs. Which have more "killing" power?

Why is it that when Syria uses bombs against the population it is a crime against humanity, according to the US, yet when Israel does exactly the same thing, the US say it's OK?

So if someone attacks you with a cricket bat and starts whacking you in the head with it with the intention of splitting your head open and spilling your brains all over the sidewalk; if you have a gun you shouldn't use it against them right, as that would be excessive force?

What do you expect the Israelies to do; make crude rockets like the ones being fired and shoot back?

Don't be naive; they retaliate with what they have. The palestinians know this.

When a scorpion bites the foot of a giant, he gets smashed. This is the rule of man.

Also, I see the Syrian thing differently, Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing. However, when Jews defend themselves against blatant attacks against innocent civilians, these muslim nations scream bloody murder. Hippocrites plain and simple.

<Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing.>

Please stop telling porkies. Some Arab nations are financing the free Syrian armies and many Arab fighters are entering Syria to join in the fighting. Short of declaring war on Syria, they are doing as much as they can. Did you miss the big conference just a few days ago?

[Scott]

I heard about the big conference. Did you hear that this thread is named "Gaza Crisis..."?

[Chicog]

Also, I see the Syrian thing differently, Assad massacres his own civilians with impunity and the Muslim/arab world does and says nothing. However, when Jews defend themselves against blatant attacks against innocent civilians, these muslim nations scream bloody murder. Hippocrites plain and simple.

That's naive at best. Put simply, Israel makes sure its story gets out to the worlds media. Jew own a large swathe of the media industry. They simply aren't interested in Syria unless they have nothing else to print.

Inside the Arab world it is the main story other than Palestine, and has been since last year.

Why do you think Qatar hosted the newly formed Syrian government in exile and has asked them to name an ambassador?

Trust me, they aren't sitting on their hands here, it is Sunni vs Shia.

Claiming the media is controlled by Jews is one of the oldest tricks in the anti-semites book, all the way back to the the elders of zion.

Absolute crap, complete rubbish, you should really be ashamed of yourself.

Try to come back to reality and stop grasping at straws, geez....Jews control the media....the last refuge of a anti-semitic scoundrel.

Don't take my word for it, ask Rupert Murdoch or Mel Gibson.

But you're right, I should have said Jewish controlled, not owned.

[inapeartree]

Another heartbreaking story! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20466027

[uptheos]

Don't take my word for it, ask Rupert Murdoch or Mel Gibson.

Mel Gibson, now there's an unbiased opinion.

[simple1]

Another heartbreaking story! http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20466027

Very sad story... I hope the parents & family can eventually find some form of peace in their hearts and minds.

[Chicog]

Another heartbreaking story! http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20466027

Very sad story... I hope the parents & family can eventually find some form of peace in their hearts and minds.

Unfortunately it only serves to increase the hatred - and it's a two way street, because most Israelis are probably only a few degrees of separation from someone who has been killed by Palestinians.

[David006]

Agree with JT not sure that the jews actually have state..looks like some god and his chosen has last word.??

]http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/09/201192614417586774.html

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted as well as replies.

[geriatrickid]

Another heartbreaking story! http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-20466027

More heartbreaking is the story of baby Mohammed Sadallah. As was reported by the Sunday Telegraph; "not all the Palestinian casualties have been the result of Israeli air strikes. The highly publicised death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel. The child’s death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance. ‘The boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about,’ he said, before promising to defend the Palestinian people.”

Israel was complying with a ceasefire during the Egyptian visit the arab militants were not, The result was another dead baby.

Know what/ Neither baby would have died had Hamas not started hostilities and been firing missiles and rockets over the past year. In the case you cited, it is even simpler: Had the militants not fired rockets from the area, the Israelis would not have sent a round there to stop the rocket firings.