Lessons In Democracy That Thailand Can Learn From The U S

[Jawnie]

The US is a pretty easy target these days when discussing democracy and governance - it's definitely at a transtion point. But the fact is that the US has the best system of law for individuals. The law still protects the individual in the US and one individual can still make a difference there. It as well has the 1st Amendment and the rest in its Constituion, which are subject stict testing all the time. And this system of law and governance still holds great legitimacy. Indeed, it is because of its freedoms and respect for the individual under that law that makes the US first among equals.

It is quite easy to critize the US about money in politics, etc., but the monied class has already taken over Thailand, much more so than in the US. Just look at the legal minimum wage in Thailand, it is a disgrace. I'm still flabberghasted that Thailand actually has billionares while 100,00s of educated, working Thais make less than $1,000 US a month. While the US is slowly being taken over by business interests, it is the business interest which have dominated Thailand from the start, strangling real progress in democracy (which Thais know nothing about) and progress in raising the living standards of all Thais.

[ttelise]

That is great that you're delighted to pay a lot in taxes.

You do realise that it really isn't that much, don't you. Be honest, what is your percentage and overall? (Of course I am not asking you, it is a rhetorical question).

The problem is that Americans as a whole expect sooooo much from their Federal government in particular yet loathe paying for it. War? Sooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeee, let's git them Eyeranians or Eyerakis or whatever they are! Sibsidise oil companies? Soooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

As for your comment re 'Occupy Wall Street brats, Hollywood celebs and treehuggers' . . . that's painting with a very, very broad brush and over-simplifying the situation.

I'm Grosse Pointe, Mich, raised and no-one I know is anyone of the above yet all voted Democrat. You don't know Grosse Pointe? Look it up.

Fact is that if Obama entered with a +/- balance sheet we could rip him to shreds quite convincingly for the state of the economy. He didn't. We can't. Anyone who does is a simpleton

I pay a higher percentage than low income, but I am a 1099 so that adds I think 17,500 in taxes. We also lose itemized deductions as they get phased out. I want to say my effective rate is in low 20% range. People who work for me and make less than than $100,000 a year, with child deduction credits, are paying an effective tax rare in the teens.

I get annoyed every year when I gave to stroke a big check to make up for low quarterly payments. I do feel as if I pay more in a year than many will pay in a life time yet I get least amount of benefits from it. Kids go to private school, no state assistance for anything and have health private health insurance.

I, however, am blessed to do what I do and make what I make. People like me also have way more discretionary income to help country out.

The real problem is the ultra wealthy living off capital gains and business income. They show huge paper losses, pay 15% on huge chunks of income and wing up with effective rates around 10 or 12 percent. That is certainly not equitable.

[3SoiDogNight]

At any rate did it ever occur to you two that it is a global problem and if Bush had not let his war hawks trick (actually lied to him) him into a huge waste of taxpayers money the states would have still had a down turn.

You're a bit late to the party. Scroll back a few pages and read more of what's already been discussed.

Jawnie:

Great post! However, big business has had it's influence from day one in the United States as well.

[ttelise]

DocN:

Do you have anything to add to the discussion? I sighted examples of flaws in our democracy in the US and backed it up with facts. All you've done is come in here and throw insults at those you don't agree with.

If there is something I stated that you don't agree with, then let's have a discussion about it.

Actually, you have only regurgitated the same rhetoric we hear over and over from either the very wealthy that are noid about paying more in taxes or religious nutbaggers that need structure in their life in the form of government telling them how to live and instilling those values upon others.

I pay enough in taxes every single year to pay cash for a house and it pisses me off, but not enough to risk further devastation to our financial stability.

I read your post and no where do you actually discuss the primary issues effecting US economy since 2000.

So we all actually owe the Fed and Barry as you guys call him a lot more gratitude than you guys realize.

...and you have only regurgitated the same rhetoric we hear over and over from left-wing Obama apologist and Occupy Wall Street brats, Hollywood celebs and treehuggers. You have unsavory extremist on your side too pal. That is great that you're delighted to pay a lot in taxes. That's fine and I don't either if the President was sincerely making efforts to make cuts in wasteful spending. According to the CBO, if Obama has his wishes and make the rich pay their "fair-share" it would only be enough to keep the government running for 8 day & 5 hours. So how about the remaining 356 & a half days? Blame Bush?

Everyone knows of the primary issues effecting US economy since 2000 and BOTH parties are to blame for the economic downturn. We're reminded everyday by the President about the mess he inherited from Bush. It should be interesting to see how he deals with the upcoming financial cliff and the spin the media will put on it.

Also, what's with this "as you guys call him" comment? That was uncalled for and nowhere in this thread have I called him "Barry". At least I can spell his name correctly. You called him "Obahma".

As far as your "Barry" comment goes, I'm sure his parents and teachers called him that for a period of time....

Sorry to interrupt here but I would like to point out that maybe you should be more concerned with getting out of the problem.

We now know the will of the majority of the people. A good choice as the states has turned the corner. To change policy when you have a working plan would be crazy. Maybe in four years when things are more settled.

At any rate did it ever occur to you two that it is a global problem and if Bush had not let his war hawks trick (actually lied to him) him into a huge waste of taxpayers money the states would have still had a down turn.

We know the problem we have a basic plan that will require partisan cooperation Send a message to each rep. and Senator that you want the problem fixed not a fight for control when the whole country looses.

As in all market down turns they must reach their bottom before they can go up. The states has done that.

Thailand already knows how to ignore the people in a quest for power. They don't need any lessons from the States.

Taking lessons from them we might find are selves at war.

No, subprime, collaterizrd debt, credit swaps and bad bond guarantees by Freddie, Fannie and Ginnie killed US economy, led to a reduction in net wealth (home values and investments) of around 7.3 trillion. Reduction in home values occurred because consumer lending reduced to a trickle. Commercial and residential development lending stopped.

This had a huge domino effect on world markets so we actually took you guys down.

[chiangmaikelly]

No, subprime, collaterizrd debt, credit swaps and bad bond guarantees by Freddie, Fannie and Ginnie killed US economy, led to a reduction in net wealth (home values and investments) of around 7.3 trillion. Reduction in home values occurred because consumer lending reduced to a trickle. Commercial and residential development lending stopped.

This had a huge domino effect on world markets so we actually took you guys down.

And these are the lessons Thailand can learn from the US democracy? I think you have econ and politics confused.

[soomak]

The problem of Thailand is that all the countries who have low level of corruption and effective democratic systems have culture and traditions that supports these values.

If people don't believe in integrity, equality and the rule of law, it's hard to change all the systems that are based on these ideas.

I really don't think there is anyway to change that without changing the cultural values of the Thais, and that's only possible by education from a young age - so that would take 30 years or more.

My only question is that thirty years to accomplish it or thirty years to get a government to start up a decent education system.

Thirty years to change the core values of the majority. People over 25 or so can't be changed anyhow, so they must concentrate on school and university students.

[soomak]

I think it is possible for Thailand to learn something from the US about democracy. Don't have a coup. Even if the party who wins is not the party you want to win. Even if the voters are not as smart as you would like them to be; don't have a coup. Even if the voters wear a different color shirt than you do; don't have a coup. Calling for the violent overthrow of the government because you do not agree with the government is not a good idea.

Yet in the US in the past 50 years, one president got murdered, the other one was barely saved from a attempt on his life. So although 98% of the US population will agree with you, there are enough who don't to make the president's security a big deal.

[chiangmaikelly]

I think it is possible for Thailand to learn something from the US about democracy. Don't have a coup. Even if the party who wins is not the party you want to win. Even if the voters are not as smart as you would like them to be; don't have a coup. Even if the voters wear a different color shirt than you do; don't have a coup. Calling for the violent overthrow of the government because you do not agree with the government is not a good idea.

Yet in the US in the past 50 years, one president got murdered, the other one was barely saved from a attempt on his life. So although 98% of the US population will agree with you, there are enough who don't to make the president's security a big deal.

And the connection to US democracy that Thailand can learn from is?

[ttelise]

I think it is possible for Thailand to learn something from the US about democracy. Don't have a coup. Even if the party who wins is not the party you want to win. Even if the voters are not as smart as you would like them to be; don't have a coup. Even if the voters wear a different color shirt than you do; don't have a coup. Calling for the violent overthrow of the government because you do not agree with the government is not a good idea.

Yet in the US in the past 50 years, one president got murdered, the other one was barely saved from a attempt on his life. So although 98% of the US population will agree with you, there are enough who don't to make the president's security a big deal.

The guy that shot Reagan had nothing to do with political motivations so not sure how that relates to comments about a coup.

[ttelise]

No, subprime, collaterizrd debt, credit swaps and bad bond guarantees by Freddie, Fannie and Ginnie killed US economy, led to a reduction in net wealth (home values and investments) of around 7.3 trillion. Reduction in home values occurred because consumer lending reduced to a trickle. Commercial and residential development lending stopped.

This had a huge domino effect on world markets so we actually took you guys down.

And these are the lessons Thailand can learn from the US democracy? I think you have econ and politics confused.

I was actually responding to a statement that world economy led to implosion of US economy.

Actually, smart people learn from others' mistakes. Many lessons to be learned with regard to Bush and his cronies' actions between 2001 and late 2007. Thaksin's actions pale in comparison to their actions and serving their own self interests. Those few individuals dud more damage to US economy than any other people ever during the history of US.

There things that US does correctly despite our faults. An intelligent person should be able to differentiate the good from bad and emulate the good that may work in another system.

[hellodolly]

DocN:

Do you have anything to add to the discussion? I sighted examples of flaws in our democracy in the US and backed it up with facts. All you've done is come in here and throw insults at those you don't agree with.

If there is something I stated that you don't agree with, then let's have a discussion about it.

Actually, you have only regurgitated the same rhetoric we hear over and over from either the very wealthy that are noid about paying more in taxes or religious nutbaggers that need structure in their life in the form of government telling them how to live and instilling those values upon others.

I pay enough in taxes every single year to pay cash for a house and it pisses me off, but not enough to risk further devastation to our financial stability.

I read your post and no where do you actually discuss the primary issues effecting US economy since 2000.

So we all actually owe the Fed and Barry as you guys call him a lot more gratitude than you guys realize.

...and you have only regurgitated the same rhetoric we hear over and over from left-wing Obama apologist and Occupy Wall Street brats, Hollywood celebs and treehuggers. You have unsavory extremist on your side too pal. That is great that you're delighted to pay a lot in taxes. That's fine and I don't either if the President was sincerely making efforts to make cuts in wasteful spending. According to the CBO, if Obama has his wishes and make the rich pay their "fair-share" it would only be enough to keep the government running for 8 day & 5 hours. So how about the remaining 356 & a half days? Blame Bush?

Everyone knows of the primary issues effecting US economy since 2000 and BOTH parties are to blame for the economic downturn. We're reminded everyday by the President about the mess he inherited from Bush. It should be interesting to see how he deals with the upcoming financial cliff and the spin the media will put on it.

Also, what's with this "as you guys call him" comment? That was uncalled for and nowhere in this thread have I called him "Barry". At least I can spell his name correctly. You called him "Obahma".

As far as your "Barry" comment goes, I'm sure his parents and teachers called him that for a period of time....

Subprime, Freddie, Fannie and Ginnie has cost us in realm of 3.5 to 4.0 trillion between 2008 and 2011. Then we have FHA bailout costs to be announced. AIG cost about 90 billion. Student loan defaults are $ 120 billion and rising. Auto bailouts losses about 25 billion.

War costs 4.4 trillion. $ 900 billion to care for wounded and disabled veterans.

Add another 1 + trillion in losses for Bush tax cuts.

Any wonder why we are in deficit with these huge losses on top of normal losses and some pretty hefty FEMA natural disaster losses.

Tax cuts are but a piece of the puzzle. Getting military costs reigned in and getting troops out of middle East will also help.

The jury is still out on Obama care in my opinion. Right now, those of us that pay or gave insurance already subsidize for those that cannot pay for health care and lack of insurance usually results in hue bills for very minor problems as uninsured or those on some kind of state xxxCare are forced to go to emergency rooms to get seen or treated as hospitals cannot turn them away. I can see both sides of this, but I have not really heard if a realistic better plan.

Health care is whack. Costs about $ 1,000 a month for decent family coverage through a group health plan. I have seen group plans right now costing $700 a month for a family with $ 6,000 deductible or out of pocket before any coverage and then 80/20 after that up to max of $ 10,000 out of pocket. Better off self insuring or paying cash if reasonably healthy.

Obama care cannot be any worse than that . . .

I believe that with all it's faults Obama care will work out quite nice, There is no doubt that it needs work on but at least with Obama in office they have some thing to work with. The alternative would have been rising health care costs ergo rising health care insurance costs to the point where people who can barley hang on now would have to let go.

It is a sad state of affairs when one party does not want to improve it they just want to get rid of it. And they wonder why people rejected them.

[Jawnie]

What a nonsense article.

George Bush one an election on a minority vote before the 9/11 It was only the second election he won on fear mongering..The reason he won an election with a minority of votes is because the United States is not a democracy any more than Thailand is. It is a Rebublic in a democracy Al Gore would have been the president and the U. S. would have been more concerned with enviormental needs that can have a much farther reaching effect on all of humanity.

Here in Thailand we use the Parlamentary system which does not need a majority of the voters to rule. It so happens that the present government does have a majority of the votes. But their number of seats is way out of proportion o the votes they got.

The article stated

"It is only in "Amazing Thailand" that factions such as yellow shirts and now Pitak Siam continue to believe that the current Pheu Thai-led government is not a legitimately elected governmen"

That is not at all what they are saying they are saying that it is a no good government. The author knows that to be true but being a PT Red Shirt sympathizer it was the only way he could think of to defend his interests.

I like the list of credits for the author.

"Dr Kuldep Nagi is a Fulbright Fellow working at the Graduate School of eLearning (GSeL), Assumption University, Bangkok. He can be contacted at: DrKuldeep [at] Live.com."

Just more proof that academics should stay out of politics they know nothing about it.

Obama won by less than 3% of the popular vote, that's hardly a majority in real world numbers. Errors in voting can be near that much. The Electoral College is an outdated thing that should be done away with if for no other reason than most people whether American or other do not understand. In this case it would have made no difference but it still needs to be stopped as it skews the figures and gives the wrong impression on how voting really was. When you look at the popular vote in the USA there is some serious facts, many states were well over 60% against Obama(I hesitate to say for Romney) and some well over 70%. In many counties in certain states over 80% against Obama and I believe some counties were right at 90% against Obama. The states that did go for Obama the % was closer than states that voted against Obama. If you look at the red vs blue map state wise or county wise for many states I believe it shows a disturbing trend of turmoil in the US elections in basic values. Also look at the Republican states to see what is produced in these states and look at the Democratic states to see the same. I make no judgement either way but looking at real % and facts it puts lots of questions in my mind and shows the internal problems in the USA that seem to linger on and appear to have a good chance to increase.

Say what you will about how narrow Obama's victory was. Frankly, if nothing else, that is the main thing that Thais can learn from the last US election. That is, the winner wins...and the losers must fall in line. The loser can certainly continue working to return their candidate to office but they acknowledge the winner and his legitimacy....and move on. That's one big difference...Thais simply don't know how to move on, they are really, really poor losers.

Thailand will always be a third-rate, backwater country in the eyes of the international community as long as Thai society gives legitimacy to protests calling for the removal of the elected leader, military takeover of the government, and the suspension of democratic principles. Oh, and let's not forget that pesky Article 112, les majeste, which is probably the least democratic ideal in Thai society today.

[hellodolly]

The problem of Thailand is that all the countries who have low level of corruption and effective democratic systems have culture and traditions that supports these values.

If people don't believe in integrity, equality and the rule of law, it's hard to change all the systems that are based on these ideas.

I really don't think there is anyway to change that without changing the cultural values of the Thais, and that's only possible by education from a young age - so that would take 30 years or more.

My only question is that thirty years to accomplish it or thirty years to get a government to start up a decent education system.

Thirty years to change the core values of the majority. People over 25 or so can't be changed anyhow, so they must concentrate on school and university students.

In the morning I had to rethink my previous statement. 30 years to change the education. OK but leave the culture alone, It has all ready begun to change and in my point of view not in a favorable way. My wife might only have a fourth grade education but she still takes care of her mother and is active in the family life. Her son and doughter were tought the same values and with my help have been able to get a education and gain good paying jobs. Both have indicated they will help take care of the wife in are old age.

I of course have kept my mouth shut as I know there income will never equally mine. But it is important that they have retained that part of their culture.

[Sing_Sling]

The US is a pretty easy target these days when discussing democracy and governance - it's definitely at a transtion point. But the fact is that the US has the best system of law for individuals. The law still protects the individual in the US and one individual can still make a difference there. It as well has the 1st Amendment and the rest in its Constituion, which are subject stict testing all the time. And this system of law and governance still holds great legitimacy. Indeed, it is because of its freedoms and respect for the individual under that law that makes the US first among equals.

It is quite easy to critize the US about money in politics, etc., but the monied class has already taken over Thailand, much more so than in the US. Just look at the legal minimum wage in Thailand, it is a disgrace. I'm still flabberghasted that Thailand actually has billionares while 100,00s of educated, working Thais make less than $1,000 US a month. While the US is slowly being taken over by business interests, it is the business interest which have dominated Thailand from the start, strangling real progress in democracy (which Thais know nothing about) and progress in raising the living standards of all Thais.

I'd disagree with several points you make, though you make them quite well. Your point about this being a transition period is quite accurate . . . a lot of the negative aspects started after 9/11.

I'd like to hear how the US has the best system of laws for individuals - particularly in light of the so ill-named patriot Act and the ensuing creation of an anti-democratic Homeland Security apparatus.

How is the 1st Amendment unique in the world? How do these things make the US 'first among equals'?

I would suggest that the US system of laws was very much a PR exercise - should I just cite McCarthy-ism as an example?

So, while politically the US is clearly eons ahead of Thailand the system would simply not be transferable - least of all the Electoral College nonsense which absolutely can negate the notion of every person's vote being counted.

[chiangmaikelly]

I could rig the voting machines to favor one person over another and it would take a long time to spot the fix.

The US is a pretty easy target these days when discussing democracy and governance - it's definitely at a transtion point. But the fact is that the US has the best system of law for individuals. The law still protects the individual in the US and one individual can still make a difference there. It as well has the 1st Amendment and the rest in its Constituion, which are subject stict testing all the time. And this system of law and governance still holds great legitimacy. Indeed, it is because of its freedoms and respect for the individual under that law that makes the US first among equals.

It is quite easy to critize the US about money in politics, etc., but the monied class has already taken over Thailand, much more so than in the US. Just look at the legal minimum wage in Thailand, it is a disgrace. I'm still flabberghasted that Thailand actually has billionares while 100,00s of educated, working Thais make less than $1,000 US a month. While the US is slowly being taken over by business interests, it is the business interest which have dominated Thailand from the start, strangling real progress in democracy (which Thais know nothing about) and progress in raising the living standards of all Thais.

I'd disagree with several points you make, though you make them quite well. Your point about this being a transition period is quite accurate . . . a lot of the negative aspects started after 9/11.

I'd like to hear how the US has the best system of laws for individuals - particularly in light of the so ill-named patriot Act and the ensuing creation of an anti-democratic Homeland Security apparatus.

How is the 1st Amendment unique in the world? How do these things make the US 'first among equals'?

I would suggest that the US system of laws was very much a PR exercise - should I just cite McCarthy-ism as an example?

So, while politically the US is clearly eons ahead of Thailand the system would simply not be transferable - least of all the Electoral College nonsense which absolutely can negate the notion of every person's vote being counted.

What US laws are represented by McCarthy-ism? As an aside it is the United States of America and what is important is every States vote is counted. If it was the United People of America maybe every persons vote should be counted.

Edited November 26, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[Sing_Sling]

I could rig the voting machines to favor one person over another and it would take a long time to spot the fix.

The US is a pretty easy target these days when discussing democracy and governance - it's definitely at a transtion point. But the fact is that the US has the best system of law for individuals. The law still protects the individual in the US and one individual can still make a difference there. It as well has the 1st Amendment and the rest in its Constituion, which are subject stict testing all the time. And this system of law and governance still holds great legitimacy. Indeed, it is because of its freedoms and respect for the individual under that law that makes the US first among equals.

It is quite easy to critize the US about money in politics, etc., but the monied class has already taken over Thailand, much more so than in the US. Just look at the legal minimum wage in Thailand, it is a disgrace. I'm still flabberghasted that Thailand actually has billionares while 100,00s of educated, working Thais make less than $1,000 US a month. While the US is slowly being taken over by business interests, it is the business interest which have dominated Thailand from the start, strangling real progress in democracy (which Thais know nothing about) and progress in raising the living standards of all Thais.

I'd disagree with several points you make, though you make them quite well. Your point about this being a transition period is quite accurate . . . a lot of the negative aspects started after 9/11.

I'd like to hear how the US has the best system of laws for individuals - particularly in light of the so ill-named patriot Act and the ensuing creation of an anti-democratic Homeland Security apparatus.

How is the 1st Amendment unique in the world? How do these things make the US 'first among equals'?

I would suggest that the US system of laws was very much a PR exercise - should I just cite McCarthy-ism as an example?

So, while politically the US is clearly eons ahead of Thailand the system would simply not be transferable - least of all the Electoral College nonsense which absolutely can negate the notion of every person's vote being counted.

What US laws are represented by McCarthy-ism? As an aside it is the United States of America and what is important is every States vote is counted. If it was the United People of America maybe every persons vote should be counted.

You could rig the voting machines . . . umm, ok. Excellent point. Not sure to what end, but excellent point, I guess.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my point re. McCarthyism, but please re-read my post and the one it refers to, then it will make sense to you.

So, you are saying that because it is the United States of America the states votes are important, not the individual's. Just a hint - Republic, as opposed to democracy. You do know the history of the electoral college?

I must admit to being confused as to what you're trying to get at and how this would be of any benefit to Thailand

[chiangmaikelly]

I could rig the voting machines to favor one person over another and it would take a long time to spot the fix.

The US is a pretty easy target these days when discussing democracy and governance - it's definitely at a transtion point. But the fact is that the US has the best system of law for individuals. The law still protects the individual in the US and one individual can still make a difference there. It as well has the 1st Amendment and the rest in its Constituion, which are subject stict testing all the time. And this system of law and governance still holds great legitimacy. Indeed, it is because of its freedoms and respect for the individual under that law that makes the US first among equals.

It is quite easy to critize the US about money in politics, etc., but the monied class has already taken over Thailand, much more so than in the US. Just look at the legal minimum wage in Thailand, it is a disgrace. I'm still flabberghasted that Thailand actually has billionares while 100,00s of educated, working Thais make less than $1,000 US a month. While the US is slowly being taken over by business interests, it is the business interest which have dominated Thailand from the start, strangling real progress in democracy (which Thais know nothing about) and progress in raising the living standards of all Thais.

I'd disagree with several points you make, though you make them quite well. Your point about this being a transition period is quite accurate . . . a lot of the negative aspects started after 9/11.

I'd like to hear how the US has the best system of laws for individuals - particularly in light of the so ill-named patriot Act and the ensuing creation of an anti-democratic Homeland Security apparatus.

How is the 1st Amendment unique in the world? How do these things make the US 'first among equals'?

I would suggest that the US system of laws was very much a PR exercise - should I just cite McCarthy-ism as an example?

So, while politically the US is clearly eons ahead of Thailand the system would simply not be transferable - least of all the Electoral College nonsense which absolutely can negate the notion of every person's vote being counted.

What US laws are represented by McCarthy-ism? As an aside it is the United States of America and what is important is every States vote is counted. If it was the United People of America maybe every persons vote should be counted.

You could rig the voting machines . . . umm, ok. Excellent point. Not sure to what end, but excellent point, I guess.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my point re. McCarthyism, but please re-read my post and the one it refers to, then it will make sense to you.

So, you are saying that because it is the United States of America the states votes are important, not the individual's. Just a hint - Republic, as opposed to democracy. You do know the history of the electoral college?

I must admit to being confused as to what you're trying to get at and how this would be of any benefit to Thailand

If you want me to respond, state your point about McCarthyism. Yes I am saying in the minds of the founders the States votes were more important than the individuals.

[Sing_Sling]

If you want me to respond, state your point about McCarthyism. Yes I am saying in the minds of the founders the States votes were more important than the individuals.

I did. You responded to my comment but clearly misread it. Your seeming inability to address the issue seems to be the problem here.

Excellent, so how does the electoral college benefit democracy and how would it apply to Thailand in a positive way?

[chiangmaikelly]

If you want me to respond, state your point about McCarthyism. Yes I am saying in the minds of the founders the States votes were more important than the individuals.

I did. You responded to my comment but clearly misread it. Your seeming inability to address the issue seems to be the problem here.

Excellent, so how does the electoral college benefit democracy and how would it apply to Thailand in a positive way?

You are just trying to start a fight. Which I have no interest in. When you can respond in a civil manner I will address your questions.

[Sing_Sling]

If you want me to respond, state your point about McCarthyism. Yes I am saying in the minds of the founders the States votes were more important than the individuals.

I did. You responded to my comment but clearly misread it. Your seeming inability to address the issue seems to be the problem here.

Excellent, so how does the electoral college benefit democracy and how would it apply to Thailand in a positive way?

You are just trying to start a fight. Which I have no interest in. When you can respond in a civil manner I will address your questions.

I have no intention of that whatsoever, but you moving the goalposts seems disingenuous at best.

Ok, in the interest of discussion I'll post the original posts which prompted your response:

"I'd like to hear how the US has the best system of laws for individuals - particularly in light of the so ill-named patriot Act and the ensuing creation of an anti-democratic Homeland Security apparatus.

How is the 1st Amendment unique in the world? How do these things make the US 'first among equals'?

I would suggest that the US system of laws was very much a PR exercise - should I just cite McCarthy-ism as an example?

So, while politically the US is clearly eons ahead of Thailand the system would simply not be transferable - least of all the Electoral College nonsense which absolutely can negate the notion of every person's vote being counted."

Ok, the points I made:

How does the US have the best system of laws for the individual, citing McCarthyism, the Patriot Act etc...

How does the Electoral College which negates the democratic 'every vote counts' idea.

Your response was to talk about rigging voting machines and that the US is the 'United States of America', not the 'United People of America'

Hardly effective discourse, wouldn't you agree?

[SeaVisionBurma]

We seem to have strayed into a two member argument - and no more 'lessons' for Thailand will be learned here.

Time to close gentlemen.