Legal Status Of Foreign Marriage Between Thai And Farang

[liberty9133]

Most countries have reciprocity agreements which include marriage. In as much as, some of those countries have gay marriage laws, how are those agreements affected? I would think that Thai law does not state that its recognition of a reciprical agreement between it and its international reciprocants is only between a man and a woman. From what i can read, it is silent on the issue of gender. Therefore, can one make the case that Thai law and its reciprocity agreements require that Thailand must recognize all marriages from those countires it has such reciprocity agreements?

[Mario2008]

No, you cannot. What countries do that allow marriages between the same sex is ask other countries to recognise it, probbly written on the mariage certificate or such. But there is no international agreement that same sex marriages must be honoured.

Thailand does not recognises same sex marriages as a legal marriage.

[liberty9133]

The actual international agreements are not gender specific as to marriage. At least they were in the past unless modified, So did the Thai government adopt legislation or otherwise amend its agreements? I think they would have had to so to legally bar recognition of a lawful marriage in another country.

[liberty9133]

Let us say a Thai and US citizen legally married in USA. And resided for a time in USA and travelled to Thailand.

Then, let us say that they travel to Thailand and one of them gets deathly ill. Do you think that Thailand would risk an international incident by denying marriage rights to the surviving USA spouse? Given that the current govenment of the USA is totally committed to gay rights, the State Department of which has rigoursly pursued gay rights as has every level of the Federal Govt., the Thai government would do well to look for accomodation with the USA. and other western governments.

[endure]

Thailand doesn't recognise gay marriage. They won't even let UK citizens enter into a civil partnership at the British Embassy in Bangkok. They have to travel to Vietnam which is a little ironic really.

[Swiss1960]

As long as a country defines marriage to be between man and wife, they have no whatsoever obligation to recognize same-sex marriages from other countries, no matter their bilateral agreements.

Even the Hague "Convention on the Celebration and Recognition of the Validity of Marriages" does allow member states to make exceptions, i.e. "A Contracting State may refuse to regonize the validity of a marriage where such recognition is manifestly incompatible with its public poicy"

Ergo... never expect any state to recognize same-sex marriages when that state does not know that form of marriage themselves.

[RabC]

Let us say a Thai and US citizen legally married in USA. And resided for a time in USA and travelled to Thailand.

Then, let us say that they travel to Thailand and one of them gets deathly ill. Do you think that Thailand would risk an international incident by denying marriage rights to the surviving USA spouse? Given that the current govenment of the USA is totally committed to gay rights, the State Department of which has rigoursly pursued gay rights as has every level of the Federal Govt., the Thai government would do well to look for accomodation with the USA. and other western governments.

Oh Dear get used to it Uncle Sam doesn't have as much influence as FOX would have you believe. Thailand does not recognise same sex partnerships and that's it. There are cases of certain Thai Consulates issuing Next Of Kin visas to married gay couples but that's still not recognising the marriage.

Edited to add.

The USA doesn't even recognise same sex partnership in all states so who are they to apply pressure to anyone to recognise same sex rites?

Edited December 6, 2012 by RabC

[Jingthing]

Perhaps gay divorce is a legal back door to gay marriage rights in Thailand, as is happening in Israel:

[LeCharivari]

This subject has already been covered here a number of times.

There are NO " reciprocity agreements which include marriage" between "most countries" or even any countries.

The Hague Convention of 1978 has only been ratified by three countries and signed in principle by three others, all subject to Article 14 ("A Contracting State may refuse to recognize the validity of a marriage where such recognition is manifestly incompatible with its public policy.") which make the convention meaningless internationally.

The principle concerned is not reciprocity, which is about reciprocal rights and obligations, but comity which is about rights and obligations based on those of the country where you are, not the country you are from.

The only marriages recognized in any country are those which comply with its own laws - so same-sex marriage is not recognized in Thailand any more than polygamous marriage, forced marriage, child marriage, etc, are recognized in the UK.

Same-sex marriages are already legally recognized in Israel and have been recognized for Israeli citizens since 2006, as long as the marriage is performed abroad (outside Israel), so "gay divorce" has also been legal since then. All that is new in the case JT refers to is that the ruling was made by a civil court, not a rabbinical court, which was a first in Israel and has more implications for straight Israeli couples who want to get divorced than it does for gay Israeli couples who want to get married. As gay marriages are not recognized in Thailand gay couples married abroad are not considered married in Thailand so obviously they cannot get divorced in Thailand, making any parallels with Israel irrelevant.

[LeCharivari]

There are cases of certain Thai Consulates issuing Next Of Kin visas to married gay couples but that's still not recognising the marriage.

Not any more - that particular Consulate has had its wings clipped considerably as far as visas are concerned.

[Jingthing]

First of all, gay MARRIAGE is NOT LEGAL to enter into in Israel in any kind of court, the same as in Thailand.

Before pooh pooh-ing the idea totally, it might be interesting if there was a Thai couple legally married in another country who lives in Thailand and files for divorce in a Thai court. Yes, no Thai court would recognize they were married in the first place, but still, it would be interesting to attempt to file the case. At the very least it would have the potential of getting publicity in Thailand for the issue. Baby steps.

[LeCharivari]

First of all, gay MARRIAGE is NOT LEGAL to enter into in Israel in any kind of court, the same as in Thailand.

Sorry, JT, but this is VERY misleading - although getting married IN Israel is the same for gays as it is in Thailand, the legality of gay marriage in Israel is NOT "the same as in Thailand".

In Israel, as I said, "Same-sex marriages are already legally recognized in Israel and have been recognized for Israeli citizens since 2006, as long as the marriage is performed abroad (outside Israel)". Many Israelis - not only gays - are currently forced to marry OUTSIDE Israel, as although their marriages are then recognised by Israeli law they cannot legally marry IN Israel.

The anomaly in Israel, as I am sure you are well aware, is because all marriages in Israel currently come under the jurisdiction of 15 religious courts (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, etc), except for non-Jews who can get married in a civil court, as have all divorces until this case. That's what makes the case so important in Israel as straight couples could also now get divorced in the civil court but, potentially, not only could straight and gay couples get married in a civil court in Israel, but so could an Israeli Jew who wants to marry someone of another faith - something that, like gay couples, they now have to go abroad to do.

In Thailand, on the other hand, gay marriages performed anywhere have no legal meaning or recognition at all. There are simply no parallels.

[Jingthing]

Yes of course there is one similarity which I have already pointed out quite clearly and is a fact. Same sex couples cannot get married in Thailand and they cannot get married in Israel.

It's quite obvious a gay Thai divorce wouldn't go anywhere in Thailand. I just think it would be INTERESTING for a married (abroad) Thai gay couple who decides they want to divorce to give it a TRY. Up to them of course.

There is a kind of irony if that is ever tried in Thailand. Thailand doesn't have any same sex marriage rights at all so this couple would be saying, well we've got these rights from abroad and now we don't want them, can you help us? Of course they'd say no, but I still think it would be interesting.

Unlike some, I really think it is only a matter of time before Thai gay activists start working harder on same sex marriage rights. Call it western influence if you like, but I predict it WILL happen.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Jingthing

[RabC]

There are cases of certain Thai Consulates issuing Next Of Kin visas to married gay couples but that's still not recognising the marriage.

Not any more - that particular Consulate has had its wings clipped considerably as far as visas are concerned.

How recently did you try?

[LeCharivari]

There are cases of certain Thai Consulates issuing Next Of Kin visas to married gay couples but that's still not recognising the marriage.

Not any more - that particular Consulate has had its wings clipped considerably as far as visas are concerned.

How recently did you try?

I've been here nearly 20 years, the last 5 on a "retirement" extension so its some time since I got a visa from Hull!

The change was in mid-2011 when all Embassies and Consulates were told not to recognise de-facto relationships for Non-Imm "O" visas.