Dirt Helpers

[Canada]

We just finished cutting one field of sugarcane and are starting to prepare it for ratoon crop. We will leave sugarcane leaves and work them into the soil. Question is, what else can I, or should I add to the soil if possible aside from chem fertilizer? I can add rice straw, rice husks and green sugarcane leaves from other cut fields and work this in as well. Would this be beneficial? This particular field was used for rice for I don't know how long, grew rubber for a year was ploughed under, grew a bad crop of sugar and weeds for less than a year and was ploughed under so the field is probably in not that bad condition as it has had a 2 year break with a fertilizer crop grown on it. We just got a good crop off it.

Any help in this area? I am pretty new to farming and have a lot of dirt to deal with (100+ rai). This particular field is 50 rai. Kind of a stupid situation but it is what it is.

Thanks

[Canada]

Judging by all the replies, I guess it's a dumb question.

[tingtong]

maybe i is just too tough for most of us?

we will only wonder into sugarcane the first time this year.

i was told that we can use some kind of black soil looking thing, (kee oi, as sugarcane shit literally?) a byproduct/fertiliser made from sugarcane waste, if i understood my wife correctly. suppose to be organic vs the chem. fertiliser, however cost-wise about similar...again if not too many things lost in translation.

[Canada]

maybe i is just too tough for most of us?

we will only wonder into sugarcane the first time this year.

i was told that we can use some kind of black soil looking thing, (kee oi, as sugarcane shit literally?) a byproduct/fertiliser made from sugarcane waste, if i understood my wife correctly. suppose to be organic vs the chem. fertiliser, however cost-wise about similar...again if not too many things lost in translation.

You are right about this. You can buy it back from the sugar mill. I am more interested in learning to make from raw material, something similar. With all the green sugarcane leaves lying in the field right now and all the available rice straw and husk, you would think that it would be useful in conditioning dirt, adding to a filed of sugar which is growing ratoon crop, helping a sandy field, or a tired field, etc...

[loong]

I didn't reply because I have no experience of growing sugarcane.

Rice straw should not be ploughed in unless it has been fully composted first.

If ploughed in uncomposted it will steal the nitrogen that the sugar cane needs during its initial growth.

This is part of the reason why the rice farmers burn the straw.

However,, rice straw is an excellent mulch that will break down slowly to feed the soil.

[Canada]

I didn't reply because I have no experience of growing sugarcane.

Rice straw should not be ploughed in unless it has been fully composted first.

If ploughed in uncomposted it will steal the nitrogen that the sugar cane needs during its initial growth.

This is part of the reason why the rice farmers burn the straw.

However,, rice straw is an excellent mulch that will break down slowly to feed the soil

What is a mulch? And how would you use it?

Thanks. Again, I'll google it while I wait your reply.

[NeverSure]

Mulch is excellent. It's just organic matter such as straw that you spread out on top of the soil. You can spread in around your plants and in pathways. If deep enough, it will very much help control weeds. Over time it decomposes where it is in contact with soil, and becomes compost to enrich the soil.

It shouldn't be incorporated into the soil as someone said because decomposing matter needs a lot of nitrogen to decompose and that will take it from the plants.

I wouldn't put mulch on soil unless I was already happy with the condition of the soil because it would then be in the way of adding compost to the soil or tilling it.

I have often wondered if there is any soil in LOS where alfalfa would grow. The soil must be deep and loose - not too much clay. Alfalfa has deep roots, breaks up soil, adds compost and nutrients from serious root systems, and it is a legume which fixes nitrogen into the soil. The plant itself above the soil is excellent cattle feed. Cattle can graze it, or it can be excellent hay or both. If wanted, it will grow for years, or it can be harvested a couple of times a year and then plowed in and another crop which likes nitrogen can be planted. Farmers often rotate alfalfa with plants such as corn. On our ranch in the US we rotate it with wheat. On 1/2 of the ranch we raise beef, and the other 1/2 is wheat, and we rotate. The organic matter from roots and nitrogen from the alfalfa, and the manure from the cattle creates a good place to then plant wheat, and it just rotates every 2 years. Alfalfa wouldn't do well in wet ground like a rice paddy. It would have a better chance on drier land for sugar cane and corn. It is the #1 cover crop and feed crop for $ value in the US. It is rich enough in nutrients to finish beef and is fantastic for the soil.

Good luck to you!!

[loong]

I didn't reply because I have no experience of growing sugarcane.

Rice straw should not be ploughed in unless it has been fully composted first.

If ploughed in uncomposted it will steal the nitrogen that the sugar cane needs during its initial growth.

This is part of the reason why the rice farmers burn the straw.

However,, rice straw is an excellent mulch that will break down slowly to feed the soil

What is a mulch? And how would you use it?

Thanks. Again, I'll google it while I wait your reply.

Already answered by Neversure...

In addition, mulch helps the soil to retain water for longer. In heavy rain it can help to reduce soil erosion.

Suppresses weed growth.

Because it breaks down slowly, there is a small, but continuous supply of nutrients to the roots. Of course it can only supply nutrients that are in the mulch material to begin with.

[NeverSure]

Good topic.

Actually, there is a bonus of nutrients in the composted mulch. The micro-organisms which break it down where it is damp and in contact with soil quickly multiply by the billions and then die. Their dead "bodies" are nutrient rich. They have essentially changed a low nutrient organic material into a nutrient rich compost much of which is those dead bodies, if you will. Nature is amazing.

[humblefalang]

1st let me say that it has been some intersting reading her,

been at farming in LOS for 5 years,

1st i would not bother with rice husk straw as said above it suck notrogen and unless it is fuccly conposed forget it,

2nd all this orbanic blah blah, ok it is what it is (organic) it will help growth of your plants,

3rd if you are doing anything over 10 rai and want alternative fertilizer, here what you do,

find your local pig farm and a truck that can carry liquid get all the pig shit you can get (liquid) transfer it to your land and just empty it everywhere, then plough the land plant your crop.

simple,

just as good if not better than chem fert.

we do it.

have the best sugar cane around the family do it too, and we sell the sugar cane to be replanted beatifull fat and tall ( more profit).

other than that i would not bother with alternative fertilizer,

beautifull green but not practical for 10 rai up

[Canada]

OK. Now I understand mulch. Problem with it is that it can be a fire hazard. With lots of burning in the area, most Thais do not recommend leaving the dry sugarcane leaves or adding rice straw on top. They would recommend the plowing it under which as has been pointed out here, will rob available nitrogen. It seems then that the best way to use this mulch then, for me, would be to compost first, and then add to the soil.

So, how would you get a large compost going?? What do you add to get it to start to break down?

I am thinking ahead for next year as we are dealing with this year now. I want an organic matter that i can work in to the soil between rows of cut sugar. If I don't do it then, I am looking at doing this every three or for years. I would rather adding something as well on a yearly basis.

Humblefarang...I am working with 100 rai of sugarcane. I piece has good soil, 1 piece is so so, and one piece is sandy. 50 30 and 20 rai respectively.

[NeverSure]

Organic matter needs at least 3 things to decompose. Moisture, nitrogen, and a starter of bacteria. I get my starter from rich soil or compost.

So, I have a bunch of dry wheat straw. I start by mixing it 50/50 with something green like grass clippings. I add in some compost rich soil or compost for the micro organisms. They multiply be dividing and grow so fast that the compost pile gets hot inside from their activity. When the pile cools down in the middle, I turn it, getting the uncomposted part inside. That can be done by hand with something like a pitch fork, but I use the front end loader. All the while I make sure the composting material stays damp. It drains well so I just have a sprinkler I turn onto it as it tries to dry out.

There must be air getting into the pile. Anaerobic activity will make a slimy mess and not give you what you need. As I turn the pile I fluff it by dropping it from a bit of height.

In warm weather, all of that will turn to compost in not more than a month and often less.

If you have no green material, you can probably still do it with just nitrogen, moisture, and starter, but it will go more slowly. For a project the size you're talking about, you'll need a lot of material. When the straw breaks down into compost it greatly shrinks in volume and you want as much on the soil as possible.

I'd still be looking into what they call a green manure crop if that works with timing your cash crops. I mentioned alfalfa. Maybe you have something better in LOS. You can grow alfalfa in the rows and mow it like weeds, and its roots will do wonders for the soil and fix nitrogen in the soil. It grows fast and thick and there would be a lot of organic material in each mowing. Its roots get about 6 feet (2 meters) deep and if killed, will rot in the ground improving the soil greatly, leaving organic material and nitrogen.

Legumes all fix nitrogen into the soil. They get "growths" on their roots which are some kind of bacteria I think, and they generate the nitrogen. Then when they die that nitrogen is left behind. US farmers rotate alfalfa with nitrogen loving crops like corn, wheat, etc. Alfalfa itself is a valuable crop for cattle feed. It's rich enough to finish steers for the beef market.

[loong]

To compost for the area you are talking about. I would think that you would have to mechanise the composting.

Just spreading a 50mm layer of compost on 1 rai would require 80 Cubic Metres of compost.

100 Rai would need 8,000 Cubic Metres and that's more like 30,000 Cubic Metres of pre-compost material.

A daunting task, but can you get hold of that amount of organic materials anyway?

Mind you even if you can only manage to do a little at a time, it will help.

Sunn hemp is possibly the most used green manure. You can often get the seed free from your local Land Developement Office.

All legumes can fix nitrogen in the soil, but they won't always. Simply planting a legume will not guarantee that the roots will fix nitrogen. I'm not sure if it is a bacteria or enzyme, but whatever it is, it has to be present in the soil, not only that it has to be one suitable to the legume planted.

[NeverSure]

Simply planting a legume will not guarantee that the roots will fix nitrogen. I'm not sure if it is a bacteria or enzyme, but whatever it is, it has to be present in the soil, not only that it has to be one suitable to the legume planted.

I forgot to say that, thanks. We buy powder for the alfalfa seed, and inoculate the seed with it just before planting. It doesn't take much and it doesn't cost much. Again, it's a micro organism which multiplies fast.

I don't know about the hemp. The only hemp I know of by that name is marijuana. It's grown in Mexico to make ah, er, uh, rope.

[loong]

Simply planting a legume will not guarantee that the roots will fix nitrogen. I'm not sure if it is a bacteria or enzyme, but whatever it is, it has to be present in the soil, not only that it has to be one suitable to the legume planted.

I forgot to say that, thanks. We buy powder for the alfalfa seed, and inoculate the seed with it just before planting. It doesn't take much and it doesn't cost much. Again, it's a micro organism which multiplies fast.

I don't know about the hemp. The only hemp I know of by that name is marijuana. It's grown in Mexico to make ah, er, uh, rope.

Sun hemp's real name is Crotalaria juncea

Google it and you will find some info. Good stuff, which is why the Land Developement Department promotes its use.

[NeverSure]

Sun hemp's real name is Crotalaria juncea

Google it and you will find some info. Good stuff, which is why the Land Developement Department promotes its use.

Good stuff, thanks. It's a legume, with the rhizomes too. That is a LOT of plant material in a hurry. I can see several reasons why they use it.

[Canada]

Just got in off the tractor. You guys are great, thanks for the help. Probably what I will start with is working on the 3 rai sugarcane experiment I am just about to start. That will likely lead to some other ideas, thoughts, questions. My 20 rai piece is the one I am concerned about. It's pretty sandy. I just bought it and got it planted. The locals tell me that this type of dirt will grow good sugar for only 2-3 years. Even at that, it is worth doing. I would like to improve the quality of the dirt though. I would try a "green manure" crop at your suggestion. Thais who are informed grow something as well for this and it may be what Loong is talking about.

Thanks

[Canada]

There is a lot of material available around here. I think I will get right on starting a large compost. I'll figure out what to do with it later.