There's A Secret War In Thailand No One's Talking About

[phetaroi]

As far as this situation not being talked about... at least in the U.S. the lack of news coverage is mostly due to 'myopia' of our news media... We have nothing in the U.S. that covers international news like the BBC... American news producers want to SELL - get advertising money - try to prosper or just stay afloat. By in large the American population is not interested in what goes on around the world... Most people I run into think Thailand is Taiwan... It is a combination of disinterest, ignorance (mostly willful) and a money focused news media - that only sells what the public will sit still to hear - most of it fluff...

Yes, you're right. Americans don't care much about the news in Pattani and Naritahwat and Yala. But why should Americans care about those places? It's almost exactly half a world away. And why should it be any more on our minds than the problems in 55 countries in Africa, or 47 other countries in Asia, or 24 countries in the Middle East, or 47 countries in Europe, or 7 countries in Central America, or 12 countries in South America.

And why exactly should Americans care about Pattani, Narithawat, and Yala IF THAILAND ITSELF DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT?

And so what about how good the BBC is...and I admit it is. Has the coverage by the BBC made a dimes worth of difference in the situation in Pattani, Narithawat, or Yala? NO!

Forget about America being myopic. The central Thais are myopic about their own country. They never gave a dam_n about the Hill Tribe people. They cared little about the poverty in Issan (hence the Red Shirts)...and many Thais from Bangkok can't even effectively communicate with the Thai-Lao people of Issan. And they certainly don't care anything about the Muslims of Southern Thailand. America has nothing to do with it. It's a Thai problem. And Thailand just doesn't care.

[SteeleJoe]

I am somewhat mystified at your tolerance for the faith of everyone but Muslims - to the extent that you can have friends only with people who aren't Muslim - as I find the Christian position only marginally (though significantly) more acceptable: my wife and children, as well as hundreds of millions of people around the world - no matter how good and decent or what they do for the betterment of their community or the world - are all condemned to an eternity of agony and suffering.

However, in day to day reality, that makes no more difference in my interaction with Christians than the teachings of the Koran do with my very amicable daily interaction with Muslims.

My standpoint exists, because no other religion openly records within its pages that one must choose to convert or pass into the afterlife. No other religion converts by force. We can look at the Crusades, which were a response to years of Muslim aggression on Christian holy lands. But neither of these are relevant. The three states are not holy lands and Thais for the most part are not Christian. This is Islam fighting a war against a war against Buddhism here in Thailand, a war against Hinduism in India, a war against Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism in China, a war against Christians in Iraq, which has now led to a war of Muslims against each other.

Please state a single religion of which the teachings specifically encourage such open aggression against every other religion and I will stand silent.

Why am I supposed to support a position I have not put forth as being my own?

Why would I care if you stand silent or not?

But carry on ignoring what I actually did post and posting self-righteous non sequiturs in response if it pleases you.

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You guys are quite amusing in your posts. Both self proclaimed athiests but you are beginning to sound like two preachers of different religions trying to convince the other one you are right. Happy New Year.

What an odd post. I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything. What am I supposed to be "right" about? (And what other sort of Atheist is there - or believer - than "self proclaimed"? Is there some sort of authority or organizational body whose accreditation we should seek?)

Same to you.

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Edited January 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[chuang]

I am sure we all know who are the killers of the innocents.....all in the name of religion...virgins waiting for them in 'heaven'...

[Pimay1]

As far as this situation not being talked about... at least in the U.S. the lack of news coverage is mostly due to 'myopia' of our news media... We have nothing in the U.S. that covers international news like the BBC... American news producers want to SELL - get advertising money - try to prosper or just stay afloat. By in large the American population is not interested in what goes on around the world... Most people I run into think Thailand is Taiwan... It is a combination of disinterest, ignorance (mostly willful) and a money focused news media - that only sells what the public will sit still to hear - most of it fluff...

Yes, you're right. Americans don't care much about the news in Pattani and Naritahwat and Yala. But why should Americans care about those places? It's almost exactly half a world away. And why should it be any more on our minds than the problems in 55 countries in Africa, or 47 other countries in Asia, or 24 countries in the Middle East, or 47 countries in Europe, or 7 countries in Central America, or 12 countries in South America.

And why exactly should Americans care about Pattani, Narithawat, and Yala IF THAILAND ITSELF DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT?

And so what about how good the BBC is...and I admit it is. Has the coverage by the BBC made a dimes worth of difference in the situation in Pattani, Narithawat, or Yala? NO!

Forget about America being myopic. The central Thais are myopic about their own country. They never gave a dam_n about the Hill Tribe people. They cared little about the poverty in Issan (hence the Red Shirts)...and many Thais from Bangkok can't even effectively communicate with the Thai-Lao people of Issan. And they certainly don't care anything about the Muslims of Southern Thailand. America has nothing to do with it. It's a Thai problem. And Thailand just doesn't care.

Now that is what I call a no nonsense spot on post.

[phetaroi]

I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

And why exactly are Americans supposed to know so much more about Thailand than Thais are expected to know about America. I've -- literally -- had Thais ask me if the streets in American were really paved with gold, if every American behaves like Rambo, and, "Do you have AIDS?" "No, of course not." "Oh, I thought every American had AIDS."

[oldsailor35]

Muslims... Bringing peace by slaughtering people for 1400 years!

Christianity, 2000 years of much the same.

Don't quite understand that ? How many Christian Church leaders preach death to those not christians as Muslim religious leaders do constantly. Just because previous "so called" christians such as Hitler made war, does not mean that all christians did. Get real !

[SteeleJoe]

I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

And why exactly are Americans supposed to know so much more about Thailand than Thais are expected to know about America. I've -- literally -- had Thais ask me if the streets in American were really paved with gold, if every American behaves like Rambo, and, "Do you have AIDS?" "No, of course not." "Oh, I thought every American had AIDS."

Wow. While I agree with your central point as far as it goes, I marvel at the sort of people you've met here.

In 30+ years, I've never heard those questions or any quite that stupid.

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[chainarong]

Unfortunately, more and more conflicts around the world have that common denominator.......muslim.

Need I say more?

This is war being prompted from the side lines by the Bashir crowd from Indonesia, their belief is for a secular state btwn Malaysia and Thailand, that's a cause of concern

Abu Bakar Bashir from Indonesia? He is an islamic extremist & will not be wanting a secular state.

If you read what i said, coming in from the side lines, I didn't say Bashir was at the head of the Sth problem, also the bomb making skills was taught from indo and frequent visitors from Indo are in the sth (AFP) your knowledge Mr evil Bashir is zero, he wants the whole of Indonesia as a secular state, that wont happen, as he is in prison, but he's followers are still about.

[Pimay1]

I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

And why exactly are Americans supposed to know so much more about Thailand than Thais are expected to know about America. I've -- literally -- had Thais ask me if the streets in American were really paved with gold, if every American behaves like Rambo, and, "Do you have AIDS?" "No, of course not." "Oh, I thought every American had AIDS."

Wow. While I agree with your central point as far as it goes, I marvel at the sort of people you've met here.

In 30+ years, I've never heard those questions or any quite that stupid.

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Add my 18 years here to that. Never heard those questions either. Edited January 1, 2013 by Pimay1

[SteeleJoe]

Unfortunately, more and more conflicts around the world have that common denominator.......muslim.

Need I say more?

This is war being prompted from the side lines by the Bashir crowd from Indonesia, their belief is for a secular state btwn Malaysia and Thailand, that's a cause of concern

Abu Bakar Bashir from Indonesia? He is an islamic extremist & will not be wanting a secular state.

If you read what i said, coming in from the side lines, I didn't say Bashir was at the head of the Sth problem, also the bomb making skills was taught from indo and frequent visitors from Indo are in the sth (AFP) your knowledge Mr evil Bashir is zero, he wants the whole of Indonesia as a secular state, that wont happen, as he is in prison, but he's followers are still about.

Definition of SECULAR:

a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal

b : not overtly or specifically religious

c : not ecclesiastical or clerical

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[oldsailor35]

The muslim guy, they are taught about Budism, but we are Muslim. Crazy, if you have so little faith in your own religion it must not be strong. Never knew that Budism was a subject on Thai schools.

Mind you not all Muslims are like this but there are some real crazy brainwashed types around. Abuse of power and such, yes i can understand that you fight against that, but not by targeting innocents. But fighting purely for religion when Buddhism isnt even promoted that much is crazy. Its been hundreds of years since they were an own state, give it up live in the present.

Fight it an other way, political like normal people do, even those Irish gave up.

Couple things:

1) Buddhism is taught in Thai schools.

2) If you don't think Buddhism is promoted much in Thailand, you are not thinking clearly.

3) If someone doesn't believe in a religion, I don't think it odd that I'd not want that religion taught to my child - especially if I was a devout believer in a religion that was inherently mutually exclusive with another religion. If that religion would be the very fundamental basis of my culture and way of life, that would be quite natural.

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I am an Atheist, i would not want any religion taught to my children (if i had any) But i knew of many of other atheists that had kids on a christian school because it was the only option at that time. At home they would explain why they did not believe in religion to their kids. The kids were of course never forced to go into temples.

Are Thai kids forced to go to tempels and pray or not ? Or is it just education about the religion ?

Were you born into an atheist family ?

[loofa]

In other parts of Thailand it seems that Muslims and Buddhists live side by side harmoniously. I read an article, I think in the Bangkok post, recently that interviewed teachers down there. One of them commented that this used to be the case in the south, and that this isn't really about religion at all; it's a war being instigated by drug smugglers who want to make it into a religious war to get the Thai authority out, but in reality it's just to make drug smuggling easier and most Muslims and Buddhists in the south really just want things to go back to harmonious life together. Plus, Muslim teachers have been killed as well - which seems to support what this teacher was saying.

Thoughts?

[pete66]

I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

And why exactly are Americans supposed to know so much more about Thailand than Thais are expected to know about America. I've -- literally -- had Thais ask me if the streets in American were really paved with gold, if every American behaves like Rambo, and, "Do you have AIDS?" "No, of course not." "Oh, I thought every American had AIDS."

We are measured by the company we keep

[pacovl46]

Despite questionable facts, such as the number of deaths, it is a good thing to see at least an article written by the foreign press. It would be great to see more of such articles and articles that represent the Pattani separatist's background issues and point of view. Something that the Thais squash and ignore.

The way that this "Thai south" thing will come to an end will be after more and more journalists break the truth. When the non-Thais in the southern provinces establish a visible presence in world media things will start to change. Thais will lose their grip and control. Eventually, the Thais will just "walk out." No other choice really.

Nothing is gonna change down there unless the non-Thais get what they want. It's basically a mini version of the Palestine/Israel conflict. And the media can shed as much light on it as they want, Thailand will never!!! ever!!! allow them to break off from Thailand and found their own country on what is Thai soil!!! Also, if they hate Thailand and its buddhist population so much then why don't they eff off to Malaysia???

[JoaoFPG]

Just because previous "so called" christians such as Hitler made war, does not mean that all christians did. Get real !

The EXACT same thing can be said about muslims. How many millions of muslims are there in the world and what percentage of them actually engages in such activity?

How hard is it to understand that if Islam actually meant "war on infidels" you would not be able to sleep at night? Can you begin to imagine the scale of the conflict?

[SteeleJoe]

In other parts of Thailand it seems that Muslims and Buddhists live side by side harmoniously.

For 10 years I have lived between 2 mosques, across from a large Islamic college and directly adjacent to a vast Muslim community. My village has thousands of people of which Muslims are a significant number. Everyone interacts with absolutely no religious based strife and almost always amicably and as kind and helpful neighbors.

So, it's more than "seems".

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[whybother]

Muslims... Bringing peace by slaughtering people for 1400 years!

Christianity, 2000 years of much the same.

Don't quite understand that ? How many Christian Church leaders preach death to those not christians as Muslim religious leaders do constantly. Just because previous "so called" christians such as Hitler made war, does not mean that all christians did. Get real !

Christians do have a history of using religion to validate their wars, but it hasn't been used for a few centuries. Even though they used religion as a pretext, the wars were usually about power and money.

[simple1]

Despite questionable facts, such as the number of deaths, it is a good thing to see at least an article written by the foreign press. It would be great to see more of such articles and articles that represent the Pattani separatist's background issues and point of view. Something that the Thais squash and ignore.

The way that this "Thai south" thing will come to an end will be after more and more journalists break the truth. When the non-Thais in the southern provinces establish a visible presence in world media things will start to change. Thais will lose their grip and control. Eventually, the Thais will just "walk out." No other choice really.

Nothing is gonna change down there unless the non-Thais get what they want. It's basically a mini version of the Palestine/Israel conflict. And the media can shed as much light on it as they want, Thailand will never!!! ever!!! allow them to break off from Thailand and found their own country on what is Thai soil!!! Also, if they hate Thailand and its buddhist population so much then why don't they eff off to Malaysia???

Out of a population of approx 1.8 million ethnic Malay Muslims in the Deep South their are estimates that around 15k to 20k are actually involved in the "insurgency". In a poll about 80%+ consider themselves as Thai citizens. It's all very murky from killings related to power struggles amongst the smugglers and drug traffickers (Thai & Buddhist) to claims for an autonomous state aligned to the Thai government. Accordingly it appears that it's not a blanket hatred of Buddhists that's driving this conflict killing.

[simple1]

In other parts of Thailand it seems that Muslims and Buddhists live side by side harmoniously.

For 10 years I have lived between 2 mosques, across from a large Islamic college and directly adjacent to a vast Muslim community. My village has thousands of people of which Muslims are a significant number. Everyone interacts with absolutely no religious based strife and almost always amicably and as kind and helpful neighbors.

So, it's more than "seems".

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+1 same situation living in the Muslim area of Pattaya

[submaniac]

I dunno how long people on this thread have been interested in Thailand to know what it was like "before" the insurgency. My mother's family is from the South, and Buddhist. When I was young (in the 1980's and 1990's) I would go down and visit the South. There was never this hatred between Buddhist and Mulsim. The two got along, and it wasn't really much of a conflict kind of issue. The Muslim children went to school with the Buddhist children. They lived side by side and coexisted.

I think that both Muslims and Buddhists in the South want to return to peaceful coexistion. Both Buddhists and Muslims are dying in this mess, and for nothing.

No, I don't think the Muslims want to "unite" with Malaysia. The Southern part of Thailand is actually doing a lucrative business from Tourists/visitors from Malaysia who come to Thailand precisely because they can get things or do things they can't in Malaysia.

No I don't think that the Muslims really want to be an independent autonomous state. If that ever happened, they would just be cut off from the economic resources of the rest of Thailand.

No, the Thai government will not "give up" the Southern Provinces. First is the issue of National Pride. They're not going to give up territory. Secondly, there are huge natural gas reserves down there which they're not going to give up.

[oldsailor35]

As far as this situation not being talked about... at least in the U.S. the lack of news coverage is mostly due to 'myopia' of our news media... We have nothing in the U.S. that covers international news like the BBC... American news producers want to SELL - get advertising money - try to prosper or just stay afloat. By in large the American population is not interested in what goes on around the world... Most people I run into think Thailand is Taiwan... It is a combination of disinterest, ignorance (mostly willful) and a money focused news media - that only sells what the public will sit still to hear - most of it fluff...

Yes, you're right. Americans don't care much about the news in Pattani and Naritahwat and Yala. But why should Americans care about those places? It's almost exactly half a world away. And why should it be any more on our minds than the problems in 55 countries in Africa, or 47 other countries in Asia, or 24 countries in the Middle East, or 47 countries in Europe, or 7 countries in Central America, or 12 countries in South America.

And why exactly should Americans care about Pattani, Narithawat, and Yala IF THAILAND ITSELF DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT?

And so what about how good the BBC is...and I admit it is. Has the coverage by the BBC made a dimes worth of difference in the situation in Pattani, Narithawat, or Yala? NO!

Forget about America being myopic. The central Thais are myopic about their own country. They never gave a dam_n about the Hill Tribe people. They cared little about the poverty in Issan (hence the Red Shirts)...and many Thais from Bangkok can't even effectively communicate with the Thai-Lao people of Issan. And they certainly don't care anything about the Muslims of Southern Thailand. America has nothing to do with it. It's a Thai problem. And Thailand just doesn't care.

"Why should Americans care about these places half a world away" Errrrrrr but why then are the usually the first to move in , expand and inflate conflicts in those countries "half a world away" ???

[phetaroi]

I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

And why exactly are Americans supposed to know so much more about Thailand than Thais are expected to know about America. I've -- literally -- had Thais ask me if the streets in American were really paved with gold, if every American behaves like Rambo, and, "Do you have AIDS?" "No, of course not." "Oh, I thought every American had AIDS."

We are measured by the company we keep

N

No, I'm just not a snob. And over my 30 years of traveling to Thailand for long summers and living there for a couple of years, my policy always was that I would talk to any respectable person, regardless of income, regardless of education, regardless of job...providing they held no ill intent. I've been to emabassy parties and I've been in rice paddies.

[Briggsy]

Anyone who has stayed here for any time will know Thais habitually avoid referring to problems of all types, particularly in public. The fact that the press and politicians here play down the Southern Insurgency is a combination of expediency and a reflection of their culture.

Unfortunately not referring to problematic situations also includes not addressing them so some problems just disappear of their own accord and some fester and get a lot worse.

[pete66]

I dunno how long people on this thread have been interested in Thailand to know what it was like "before" the insurgency. My mother's family is from the South, and Buddhist. When I was young (in the 1980's and 1990's) I would go down and visit the South. There was never this hatred between Buddhist and Mulsim. The two got along, and it wasn't really much of a conflict kind of issue. The Muslim children went to school with the Buddhist children. They lived side by side and coexisted.

I think that both Muslims and Buddhists in the South want to return to peaceful coexistion. Both Buddhists and Muslims are dying in this mess, and for nothing.

No, I don't think the Muslims want to "unite" with Malaysia. The Southern part of Thailand is actually doing a lucrative business from Tourists/visitors from Malaysia who come to Thailand precisely because they can get things or do things they can't in Malaysia.

No I don't think that the Muslims really want to be an independent autonomous state. If that ever happened, they would just be cut off from the economic resources of the rest of Thailand.

No, the Thai government will not "give up" the Southern Provinces. First is the issue of National Pride. They're not going to give up territory. Secondly, there are huge natural gas reserves down there which they're not going to give up.

So when did it start and why? Religious fundamentalism gone mad or because Malaysia is a way to get drugs produced in Burma out of Thailand and hence its a "drugs war" thing? Something must have changed if people used to live together in harmony 10 or 20 years ago. What?

[phetaroi]

As far as this situation not being talked about... at least in the U.S. the lack of news coverage is mostly due to 'myopia' of our news media... We have nothing in the U.S. that covers international news like the BBC... American news producers want to SELL - get advertising money - try to prosper or just stay afloat. By in large the American population is not interested in what goes on around the world... Most people I run into think Thailand is Taiwan... It is a combination of disinterest, ignorance (mostly willful) and a money focused news media - that only sells what the public will sit still to hear - most of it fluff...

Yes, you're right. Americans don't care much about the news in Pattani and Naritahwat and Yala. But why should Americans care about those places? It's almost exactly half a world away. And why should it be any more on our minds than the problems in 55 countries in Africa, or 47 other countries in Asia, or 24 countries in the Middle East, or 47 countries in Europe, or 7 countries in Central America, or 12 countries in South America.

And why exactly should Americans care about Pattani, Narithawat, and Yala IF THAILAND ITSELF DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT?

And so what about how good the BBC is...and I admit it is. Has the coverage by the BBC made a dimes worth of difference in the situation in Pattani, Narithawat, or Yala? NO!

Forget about America being myopic. The central Thais are myopic about their own country. They never gave a dam_n about the Hill Tribe people. They cared little about the poverty in Issan (hence the Red Shirts)...and many Thais from Bangkok can't even effectively communicate with the Thai-Lao people of Issan. And they certainly don't care anything about the Muslims of Southern Thailand. America has nothing to do with it. It's a Thai problem. And Thailand just doesn't care.

"Why should Americans care about these places half a world away" Errrrrrr but why then are the usually the first to move in , expand and inflate conflicts in those countries "half a world away" ???

Stop and think about what you are saying. How is America involved in Thailand's deep South? How has America inflated that conflict? If we got involved we'd be blamed. If we don't get involved, we are blamed. Thailand's Deep South is not America's issue.

[submaniac]

"Why should Americans care about these places half a world away" Errrrrrr but why then are the usually the first to move in , expand and inflate conflicts in those countries "half a world away" ???

Ahem. That's only in places that have oil or other resources America needs. Southern Thailand? Ummm...nothing the U.S. really needs.

Edited January 1, 2013 by submaniac

[SteeleJoe]

I am not disagreeing, but do you think the Americans are the only ones lazy to educate themselves on world issues? Or are the only ones with a narrow minded views what goes on outside their own countries?

And why exactly are Americans supposed to know so much more about Thailand than Thais are expected to know about America. I've -- literally -- had Thais ask me if the streets in American were really paved with gold, if every American behaves like Rambo, and, "Do you have AIDS?" "No, of course not." "Oh, I thought every American had AIDS."

We are measured by the company we keep

N

my policy always was that I would talk to any respectable person, regardless of income, regardless of education, regardless of job...providing they held no ill intent. I've been to emabassy parties and I've been in rice paddies.

Same (if anything I've been even less selective: respectable? Not always. Held ill intent? Sometimes). I'm still amazed at those questions and comments you've heard.

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[gatorsoft]

Steeljoe: I have done exactly as you requested and reread both the post you were responding to and your post, repeatedly. My post was quite relevant. I suggest you follow your own advice and review the posts. The poster quite clearly states nothing about intolerance to the Muslims. He expresses a frustration that Muslims cannot consider him a friend since he is a non-believer. If you don't want to be quoted, you should consider not posting. I was simply attempting to clear up your mystification.

[Arkady]

There is little room for reasonable doubt that the girl was murdered by one of the government death squads that roam the South carrying out revenge attacks. How else could the killers pass through army check points heavily armed?

The situation in the Deep South is very similar to Algeria in the 50s where France tried to hang on to its colony against a faceless enemy comprising hundreds of tiny independent insurgent cells that knew very little about each other but were passionately united by a common goal. The French strategy of trying to defeat the enemy through superior military might and unrestrained torture and brutality ended in dismal failure. Captured FNL revealed very little before their deaths in the French torture chambers because they knew very little. They were immediately replaced by highly motivated new recruits eager for vengeance and freedom from the foreign colonial yolk. Does this all sound familiar?

Edited January 1, 2013 by Arkady

[ramrod711]

The ruling class are only concerned about Bankok, anywhere else is not important!

The ruling class? I suppose hearts are breaking amongst governing party members, many of whom are filthy rich.