Australian Pensioner Wins The Right To Claim His Pension In Se Asia (Including Thailand)

[whybother]

Hmmm...I would speculate he has some Aboriginality and used the Aboriginal Legal Aid service to run his claim (at the tax payers expense) in the AAT.

Please post if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

If you are white and have worked and paid taxes in Australia all of your life, don't get your hopes up.

This precedent doesn't apply to you.

Pure speculation at this point.

More details are required.

Yes ... speculation, but possible given (from the link a couple of posts above):

He most closely identifies Darwin as his ‘home’ base and he has rights to camp on Aboriginal land there.

[BookMan]

Hmmm...I would speculate he has some Aboriginality and used the Aboriginal Legal Aid service to run his claim (at the tax payers expense) in the AAT.

Please post if anyone has evidence to the contrary.

If you are white and have worked and paid taxes in Australia all of your life, don't get your hopes up.

This precedent doesn't apply to you.

Pure speculation at this point.

More details are required.

Yes ... speculation, but possible given (from the link a couple of posts above):

He most closely identifies Darwin as his ‘home’ base and he has rights to camp on Aboriginal land there.

Thanks., I didn't see that when I posted. I'll give it a read through

[BookMan]

The attached link will give you more detail. It is the AAT decision. http://www.austlii.e...t/2012/924.html

Thanks for that link rip, that made for some interesting reading

Edited January 2, 2013 by BookMan

[ripstanley]

The judgement is good news for the man it concerns, but a very exceptional case. It does not mean that now anyone can claim a pension living outside of Oz.

Important factor is that the person doesn't have a place to call home, even while living abroad, while at the same time there is a link with Australia and as a result of that link it is determined that he (mainly) lives in Australia.

The decision would have been different if he had a place to call home in another country, but the man in questions travels around from country to country (including Australia where he hopes to be able to setlle eventually).

Very well stated Mario. This decision is unique to the applicant.

The discussion whether he is aboriginal or not should not be a question.

However he does have a mother who is nearly 100 and has a cousin Bob who lives in Berry. He has visited Bob and Bob helped him submit the application. Nowhere in the decision does it state that he is aboriginal.

Having lived in the NT there are a lot of white people who have been accepted by aboriginal communities and are allowed to stay on their land.

[BookMan]

The judgement is good news for the man it concerns, but a very exceptional case. It does not mean that now anyone can claim a pension living outside of Oz.

Important factor is that the person doesn't have a place to call home, even while living abroad, while at the same time there is a link with Australia and as a result of that link it is determined that he (mainly) lives in Australia.

The decision would have been different if he had a place to call home in another country, but the man in questions travels around from country to country (including Australia where he hopes to be able to setlle eventually).

Very well stated Mario. This decision is unique to the applicant.

The discussion whether he is aboriginal or not should not be a question.

However he does have a mother who is nearly 100 and has a cousin Bob who lives in Berry. He has visited Bob and Bob helped him submit the application. Nowhere in the decision does it state that he is aboriginal.

Having lived in the NT there are a lot of white people who have been accepted by aboriginal communities and are allowed to stay on their land.

Indeed rip. Also his Solicitor was from the Welfare Rights Centre not the Aboriginal legal service.

[cdnvic]

One holier-than-thou troll removed

[IrishIvan]

Individual Australians are net benefiters of taxation. They get back more than they put in. The difference is made up by company tax payments. To say or scream "look how they waste my tax dollars" is just putting your hand up and admitting little knowledge of how the tax system works. For an example, if you’re a family with 2 children and live to be 70 years of age you will have received more from the tax system then you have put in. That being said you can see why the tax system tries to reduce the amount you get back out of it. From the systems point of view every taxpayer is an expense and it wants to reduce its expenses. Australia is a lucky country in that it is able to support such a system. People who have the means to support themselves financially in retirement need to do so as this will enable the system to support those unable to financially support themselves. This will be a real issue as baby boomers move into retirement. And really if society won’t help those in need, wherever they may be, the term society becomes limited.

Getting a bit of topic but were not talking about families living in Auss

& as an so called individual ( thats myself & only myself ) who works in Auss & lives here I certainly pay more than i chew

Try this one

Cant claim jack at tax time

Pay 40,000 + for a return of 3000

Taxed accordingly to scale BUT am forced to pay a futune to have government hospital cover ( Give me the money back & i will take out my own top notch cover)

GST comes in to no tax eleviation effect

THEN we shall try & get back on topic & we shall all raise our finger to the Auss Gov to the day we can tick the appropiate box & get that flying pig to deliver our benefits we so rightly worked & paid for all our lifes

This is exactly the type of post I am talking about. Go better your education and get yourself a better job. Join a union and get more money. Why cut down some bloke who just wants to have a bit more fun in his life. This sort of post begs the question. This begs the question. How many days can an Australian pensioner spend out of the country on holidays?

My uncle worked on the wharves in Newcastle his whole life, he then had a severe back injury after being crushed. He got workers compensation and a pension. He spends 7 months of the year in Pattaya which makes him happy, he spends another 2 months of the year in New Zealand seeing some of the family. And then 3 months in Australia. I wonder if people would be so upset about this issue if my uncle resided in a tin shack under a freeway bridge collecting a small pension?

Edited January 2, 2013 by IrishIvan

[simple1]

From http://www.humanservices.gov.au

You can get Age Pension for the whole time you’re overseas, regardless of whether you leave Australia temporarily or permanently. The rate of Pension Supplement you receive will reduce on departure if you leave Australia permanently, or after six weeks if you leave Australia temporarily.The amount you receive may change again if you remain outside Australia for more than 26 weeks. If you're travelling to New Zealand, the amount you receive may be affected by the social security agreement between Australia and New Zealand. If you returned to live in Australia and were granted or transferred to Age Pension within the last two years, you will not be able to receive your Age Pension outside the country. After you return, to be paid outside the country, you must have been living in Australia for two years since your last arrival for residence. If you travel to a country that Australia has a social security agreement with, you may be able to continue to get your payment under that social security agreement.

[cdnvic]

Keep race out of this (post deleted)

[whybother]

From http://www.humanservices.gov.au

You can get Age Pension for the whole time you’re overseas, regardless of whether you leave Australia temporarily or permanently. The rate of Pension Supplement you receive will reduce on departure if you leave Australia permanently, or after six weeks if you leave Australia temporarily.The amount you receive may change again if you remain outside Australia for more than 26 weeks. If you're travelling to New Zealand, the amount you receive may be affected by the social security agreement between Australia and New Zealand. If you returned to live in Australia and were granted or transferred to Age Pension within the last two years, you will not be able to receive your Age Pension outside the country. After you return, to be paid outside the country, you must have been living in Australia for two years since your last arrival for residence. If you travel to a country that Australia has a social security agreement with, you may be able to continue to get your payment under that social security agreement.

That would be useful if we were discussing an Age Pension.

Sent from my HTC phone.

[wamberal]

My wife and I are retired, totally self-funded, and most years we actually get a bit of a refund. Virtually all our financial assets are in blue chip Australian shares, so we benefit from dividend imputation.

Sooner or later (I hope much later), this loop-hole will surely have to be closed. At the very least, people in our income bracket should not get a tax refund!

[simple1]

From http://www.humanservices.gov.au

You can get Age Pension for the whole time you're overseas, regardless of whether you leave Australia temporarily or permanently. The rate of Pension Supplement you receive will reduce on departure if you leave Australia permanently, or after six weeks if you leave Australia temporarily.The amount you receive may change again if you remain outside Australia for more than 26 weeks. If you're travelling to New Zealand, the amount you receive may be affected by the social security agreement between Australia and New Zealand. If you returned to live in Australia and were granted or transferred to Age Pension within the last two years, you will not be able to receive your Age Pension outside the country. After you return, to be paid outside the country, you must have been living in Australia for two years since your last arrival for residence. If you travel to a country that Australia has a social security agreement with, you may be able to continue to get your payment under that social security agreement.

That would be useful if we were discussing an Age Pension.

Sent from my HTC phone.

Apologies for lack of clarity, posted in response to post #59 that incorrectly stated "to qualify for the aged pension he would be requited to have lived in Aus for at least two years before he reached 65". For payment regards DSP whilst overseas at http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/outside-australia#DisabilitySupportPension

[macksview]

Good for him. I've never really understood why pensioners need to be penalised for living OS.

Need a fixed residential address in Australia to claim the pension.

This will set precedent for old sex pests who dont need to maintain an address back which in turn gives them more income to spend here.

It might also set precedent to normal pensioners who wish to live here. Sex pests will come whether they get their pension or not but most of them are located in the same hole a couple of hours east of Bangkok.

Where can that be I wonder?

im offended,what about issan we are catching up on so many things, the issan sex pests need recognition as well,more.

of course when i apply for a pension, the rules will become tighter and more restrictive, because i am an honest taxpayer.

[Daewoo]

My understanding is that the British have a system similar to Australia, where you paid a percentage of your salary into a fund, which is then paid back as a pension when you retire... In Australia that is the Superannuation Guarantee... which is completely separate to the Old Age Pension which is straight up welfare... Superannuation payments are ongoing no matter where you reside...

Most older Australians had no superannuation to speak of, they believed they paid tax, and that the government would look after them in retirement... Or they didn't work, didn't pay tax, in the belief that the government would look after them... most Australians reaching retirement age now will rely on Superannuation, not the OAP...

The reason the government restricts access to the OAP if living overseas is to stop people getting Australian Citizenship, soley for the reason of accessing the OAP, then returning home... same with other Welfare benefits... The system doesn't allow them to discriminate between those born in Australia, because you are either an Australian Citizen (eligible) or not (ineligible)...

Of course here we are talking about someone who has probably never worked and has never paid tax... who most likely has some level of mental health issue that might have always prevented him from working and paying tax... length of time paying tax has never been and never should be a criteria for needing welfare...

I myself don't understand why they can not do something to allow OAP to receive payments while living outside Australia, perhaps link it the the time they resided in Australia to stop people without a real link to Australia obtaining citizenship to access welfare...

I am a little 50/50 about disability payments, as I question how someone can be unable to work at all, and at the same time, able to survive overseas without a proper support network...

Daewoo

Edited January 3, 2013 by Daewoo

[wamberal]

There is no way that any Australian government would loosen up the eligibility for any welfare payments. Yes, it would make sense to allow some pensioners to live offshore and continue to receive their pensions.

However, I can just see the headlines now: "Welfare recipients enjoy themselves in sex havens on your taxes" - or something along those lines.

It would be commonsense to allow some flexibility. However, as an old mentor used to say to me: "Commonsense ain't so common, Wamberal".

[simple1]

I myself don't understand why they can not do something to allow OAP to receive payments while living outside Australia, perhaps link it the the time they resided in Australia to stop people without a real link to Australia obtaining citizenship to access welfare...

Daewoo

You are able to obtain OAP pension payment when living overseas, so long as you are living in Australia at retirement age and meet the criteria of being an Australian resident.. The amount paid is based upon a minimum number of years of employment. I believe to obtain the full pension the requirement as of 01/2014 is 30 years of full time employment, less than that the pension will be reduced according to number of years worked and paying income tax. If you return to Australia at retirement age and meet the assessment for Australian resident and number of years in employment, you have to remain in Australia for two years to then receive overseas payment. This criteria does not apply if you are receiving DSP payments and are classified as an Australian resident, if this is the case "automatically" rolls over to OAP.

The OP ruling was primarily about being re-classified as an Australian resident for DSP payment.

Edited January 3, 2013 by simple1

[giddyup]

I myself don't understand why they can not do something to allow OAP to receive payments while living outside Australia, perhaps link it the the time they resided in Australia to stop people without a real link to Australia obtaining citizenship to access welfare...

Daewoo

You are able to obtain OAP pension payment when living overseas, so long as you are living in Australia at retirement age and meet the criteria of being an Australian resident.. The amount paid is based upon a minimum number of years of employment. I believe to obtain the full pension the requirement as of 01/2014 is 30 years of full time employment, less than that the pension will be reduced according to number of years worked and paying income tax. If you return to Australia at retirement age and meet the assessment for Australian resident and number of years in employment, you have to remain in Australia for two years to then receive overseas payment. This criteria does not apply if you are receiving DSP payments and are classified as an Australian resident, if this is the case "automatically" rolls over to OAP.

Are you sure the pension is based on the number of years worked? First I've heard of it. I get regular newsletters from Centrelink and I don't see any kind of sliding scale for years worked, the OAP is means tested against other income, but that's all. If it was based on the number of years worked, how would a long term unemployed person (like 30 years on the dole) get a full pension? My understanding is that you would get a full OAP even if you'd never worked a day in your life.

Edited January 3, 2013 by giddyup

[Tolley]

I myself don't understand why they can not do something to allow OAP to receive payments while living outside Australia, perhaps link it the the time they resided in Australia to stop people without a real link to Australia obtaining citizenship to access welfare...

Daewoo

You are able to obtain OAP pension payment when living overseas, so long as you are living in Australia at retirement age and meet the criteria of being an Australian resident.. The amount paid is based upon a minimum number of years of employment. I believe to obtain the full pension the requirement as of 01/2014 is 30 years of full time employment, less than that the pension will be reduced according to number of years worked and paying income tax. If you return to Australia at retirement age and meet the assessment for Australian resident and number of years in employment, you have to remain in Australia for two years to then receive overseas payment. This criteria does not apply if you are receiving DSP payments and are classified as an Australian resident, if this is the case "automatically" rolls over to OAP.

Are you sure the pension is based on the number of years worked? First I've heard of it. I get regular newsletters from Centrelink and I don't see any kind of sliding scale for years worked, the OAP is means tested against other income, but that's all. If it was based on the number of years worked, how would a long term unemployed person (like 30 years on the dole) get a full pension? My understanding is that you would get a full OAP even if you'd never worked a day in your life.

I aslo find the 30 year work rule unlikely to be true.

What about all the women who were married and didnt work would that mean they werent entitled to a pension?

[giddyup]

I myself don't understand why they can not do something to allow OAP to receive payments while living outside Australia, perhaps link it the the time they resided in Australia to stop people without a real link to Australia obtaining citizenship to access welfare...

Daewoo

You are able to obtain OAP pension payment when living overseas, so long as you are living in Australia at retirement age and meet the criteria of being an Australian resident.. The amount paid is based upon a minimum number of years of employment. I believe to obtain the full pension the requirement as of 01/2014 is 30 years of full time employment, less than that the pension will be reduced according to number of years worked and paying income tax. If you return to Australia at retirement age and meet the assessment for Australian resident and number of years in employment, you have to remain in Australia for two years to then receive overseas payment. This criteria does not apply if you are receiving DSP payments and are classified as an Australian resident, if this is the case "automatically" rolls over to OAP.

Are you sure the pension is based on the number of years worked? First I've heard of it. I get regular newsletters from Centrelink and I don't see any kind of sliding scale for years worked, the OAP is means tested against other income, but that's all. If it was based on the number of years worked, how would a long term unemployed person (like 30 years on the dole) get a full pension? My understanding is that you would get a full OAP even if you'd never worked a day in your life.

I aslo find the 30 year work rule unlikely to be true.

What about all the women who were married and didnt work would that mean they werent entitled to a pension?

I believe you may have to live in Australia for 30 years to qualify for the full aged pension, but not necessarily working.

[simple1]

I myself don't understand why they can not do something to allow OAP to receive payments while living outside Australia, perhaps link it the the time they resided in Australia to stop people without a real link to Australia obtaining citizenship to access welfare...

Daewoo

You are able to obtain OAP pension payment when living overseas, so long as you are living in Australia at retirement age and meet the criteria of being an Australian resident.. The amount paid is based upon a minimum number of years of employment. I believe to obtain the full pension the requirement as of 01/2014 is 30 years of full time employment, less than that the pension will be reduced according to number of years worked and paying income tax. If you return to Australia at retirement age and meet the assessment for Australian resident and number of years in employment, you have to remain in Australia for two years to then receive overseas payment. This criteria does not apply if you are receiving DSP payments and are classified as an Australian resident, if this is the case "automatically" rolls over to OAP.

Are you sure the pension is based on the number of years worked? First I've heard of it. I get regular newsletters from Centrelink and I don't see any kind of sliding scale for years worked, the OAP is means tested against other income, but that's all. If it was based on the number of years worked, how would a long term unemployed person (like 30 years on the dole) get a full pension? My understanding is that you would get a full OAP even if you'd never worked a day in your life.

Sorry I was referring to proportional portability for OAP pension payment if relocating overseas. As from 01/2014 and making an application for OAP, to qualify for the full OAP payment and comply to Australian residency criteria at the time of application, you must have been working and paying tax for 35 years, if not their is a sliding scale that as far as I know has yet to be published. Prior to this announcement the working period for full OAP, if moving overseas, was 25 years . Overview of the announcement at: http://www.humanservices.gov.au/corporate/publications-and-resources/budget/1213/measures/international/10555

[whybother]

The Aus OAP requirements are based on Age and Residency. There don't seem to be any work requirements.

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/centrelink/age-pension/eligibility-for-age-pension

Then the amount is based on marriage, dependants, income and assets.

[giddyup]

I myself don't understand why they can not do something to allow OAP to receive payments while living outside Australia, perhaps link it the the time they resided in Australia to stop people without a real link to Australia obtaining citizenship to access welfare...

Daewoo

You are able to obtain OAP pension payment when living overseas, so long as you are living in Australia at retirement age and meet the criteria of being an Australian resident.. The amount paid is based upon a minimum number of years of employment. I believe to obtain the full pension the requirement as of 01/2014 is 30 years of full time employment, less than that the pension will be reduced according to number of years worked and paying income tax. If you return to Australia at retirement age and meet the assessment for Australian resident and number of years in employment, you have to remain in Australia for two years to then receive overseas payment. This criteria does not apply if you are receiving DSP payments and are classified as an Australian resident, if this is the case "automatically" rolls over to OAP.

Are you sure the pension is based on the number of years worked? First I've heard of it. I get regular newsletters from Centrelink and I don't see any kind of sliding scale for years worked, the OAP is means tested against other income, but that's all. If it was based on the number of years worked, how would a long term unemployed person (like 30 years on the dole) get a full pension? My understanding is that you would get a full OAP even if you'd never worked a day in your life.

Sorry I was referring to proportional portability for OAP pension payment if relocating overseas. As from 01/2014 and making an application for OAP, to qualify for the full OAP payment and comply to Australian residency criteria at the time of application, you must have been working and paying tax for 35 years, if not their is a sliding scale that as far as I know has yet to be published. Prior to this announcement the working period for full OAP, if moving overseas, was 25 years . Overview of the announcement at: http://www.humanserv...rnational/10555

So an Australian citizen who has lived in Australia all of their life, but never worked or paid taxes (like a housewife or the long term unemployed) is going to be penalised by not getting a full OAP? I'll believe it when I see it in writing from Centrelink.

Edited January 3, 2013 by giddyup

[perijon58]

The guy is getting a disability pension, not OAP as he's 62. Under current rules, once he's 65 the disability pension rolls over to a OAP, so long as he is resident in Australia at that time & would then be able to receive the OAP whilst living overseas full time.

TRUE!

[simple1]

@giddyup. Don't know why you wish to keep arguing when we are referring to OAP pensions paid to Australian overseas residents.

Here is the definition for the term Australian Working Life Residence, AWLR, "represents residence during this period only - the person does not have to be in paid employment". You are correct one does not have to have been in paid employment. However, as the announcement states from the renamed Centrelink, Dept of Human Services, to repeat, when moving overseas the sliding scale of payments applies; unless this ruling is overturned, which I very much doubt. Source info at

http://guidesacts.fahcsia.gov.au/guides_acts/ssg/ssguide-7/ssguide-7.2/ssguide-7.2.2/ssguide-7.2.2.40.html

[giddyup]

@giddyup. Don't know why you wish to keep arguing when we are referring to OAP pensions paid to Australian overseas residents.

Here is the definition for the term Australian Working Life Residence, AWLR, "represents residence during this period only - the person does not have to be in paid employment". You are correct one does not have to have been in paid employment. However, as the announcement states from the renamed Centrelink, Dept of Human Services, to repeat, when moving overseas the sliding scale of payments applies; unless this ruling is overturned, which I very much doubt. Source info at

http://guidesacts.fa...e-7.2.2.40.html

I'm referring to the OAP as well, so don't know why you needed to point that out. I'm not arguing, merely trying to get some clarity on the issue. My question still remains, is the long term unemployed or someone like a housewife who has never contributed by paying taxes, penalised by having their OAP reduced if they want to move overseas?

[simple1]

@giddyup. Don't know why you wish to keep arguing when we are referring to OAP pensions paid to Australian overseas residents.

Here is the definition for the term Australian Working Life Residence, AWLR, "represents residence during this period only - the person does not have to be in paid employment". You are correct one does not have to have been in paid employment. However, as the announcement states from the renamed Centrelink, Dept of Human Services, to repeat, when moving overseas the sliding scale of payments applies; unless this ruling is overturned, which I very much doubt. Source info at

http://guidesacts.fa...e-7.2.2.40.html

I'm referring to the OAP as well, so don't know why you needed to point that out. I'm not arguing, merely trying to get some clarity on the issue. My question still remains, is the long term unemployed or someone like a housewife who has never contributed by paying taxes, penalised by having their OAP reduced if they want to move overseas?

Yes. From my reading if they don't meet the criteria for Australian Working Life Residence, as of now 25 years residency, they will not receive the full OAP allowance, but a sliding scale. Criteria is being strengthened as of 01/2014 to 35 years

[manly100]

The disability pension is social welfare; the old age pension is social welfare. These payments are made so people have money to eat and money for accommodation. If you have worked all your life that's great but it does not entitle you to welfare payments. You become eligible for welfare when you simply have no other means of supporting yourself. The idea that you are entitled to welfare at a certain age is fast becoming a thing of the past because people started living beyond the average of 65. If you are able to support yourself financially you should never take money from any government as all you’re doing is taking funds away from people who are unable to financially take care of themselves. A financially secure person taking a welfare payment because they feel "entitled or they've earned it" beggars belief.

[simple1]

The Aus OAP requirements are based on Age and Residency. There don't seem to be any work requirements.

http://www.humanserv...for-age-pension

Then the amount is based on marriage, dependants, income and assets.

Yes, corrected again. Did not come to mind to research as always been in full time employment

[giddyup]

The Aus OAP requirements are based on Age and Residency. There don't seem to be any work requirements.

http://www.humanserv...for-age-pension

Then the amount is based on marriage, dependants, income and assets.

Yes, corrected again. Did not come to mind to research as always been in full time employment

Exactly. That was I was trying to pin down, qualifying for the OAP has nothing to do with work history, only residency. Asking questions and trying to get clarity doesn't mean being argumentitive.

Edited January 3, 2013 by giddyup

[simple1]

The Aus OAP requirements are based on Age and Residency. There don't seem to be any work requirements.

http://www.humanserv...for-age-pension

Then the amount is based on marriage, dependants, income and assets.

Yes, corrected again. Did not come to mind to research as always been in full time employment

Exactly. That was I was trying to pin down, qualifying for the OAP has nothing to do with work history, only residency. Asking questions and trying to get clarity doesn't mean being argumentitive.

Yes, glad I got it sorted out in post#84. Old age does have it's downside for me