How To Raise A Tender Cow

[jaideeguy]

What if you got one of the local [brahma type] cows and pinned it or put it on a short tether and fed it a decent diet of grains and some fresh grasses and then butchered it young and actually hung and aged the meat. Would it be tender and would it be cost effective??

I miss tender beef and refuse to pay 400+/kilo for imported US or OZ beef.

[ozsamurai]

You buy the cow and I'll buy the tether, can't be any harm in trying, I gave up on beef ages ago after multiple disasters.

Oz

[IsaanAussie]

I'm no cattle expert but the answer to your question Would it be tender and would it be cost effective??

seems obvious to me, yes more tender and no, not cost effective.

[Michael Hare]

Feeding grains is definitely not cost effective. Feeding grasses and forage legumes is.

Thai native cattle are like Brahman cattle and are a Bos indicus breed. They are relatively small with an average mature live weight of 300-350 kg for males and 200-250 kg for females. There are distinct regional colour differences ranging from light yellow to red-brown to dark grey. The northern line are entirely white with pink-orange colouration on the horns, hooves, anus and around the eyes.

Brahman cattle were first introduced into Thailand in 1954 and crossed with the above Thai native cattle and now Brahman crossbred cattle (usually white in colour) have become the foundation stock for beef farming in Thailand.

Thai native cattle are much smaller in size than the crossbred cattle but they have superior fertility and are twice as productive as Brahman crossbred cattle.

Thai native cattle eat less than crossbred Brahman cattle are are much easier to look after. One can get twice the production of meat per rai with small native cattle compared to the larger crossbred cattle .

Their beef is also much more tender.

Conclusion. Buy small native cattle. Easy to handle, productive and have tender beef.

[NeverSure]

I can't estimate the cost because I don't know the cost of the animal or the feed in LOS. I can tell you how to do it. I grew up on a 4,000 acre wheat and cattle ranch in the western US.

You buy a male animal that's about 1 year old and that has been neutered. A steer. You feed it until it is about 15 months old or 3 or 4 months. You keep it penned so its muscles will relax. The muscle is the beef and you don't want the animal "in shape." You want it soft and a bit fat and tender.

Most US beef is corn feed. That is usually husked and dried and ground corn. In other words it's dry ground grain. You might add a little molasses but you don't have to. You can add some ground wheat. You can add some alfalfa hay but I've never heard of that in LOS.

When the animal has reached butcher weight you kill it by surprise. In the US it most commonly with a .22lr bullet to the front of the brain. You don't want it startled because you don't want Adrenalin in the meat. The Adrenalin will however mostly dissipate during curing.

You immediately skin it and clean it's insides. I mean you get it clean and right now. You finish by washing it with lots of clean water. You of course cut off the head and usually the lower parts of the legs.

Now you have a clean carcass to hang in a cool place. Cool will mean aircon. Cool is not more than about 4 degree F or 2 C above freezing.

You hang the meat for at least one week to be sure that rigor mortis has passed and the meat has relaxed. Otherwise have your teeth reinforced. I believe that this is at least one area where LOS drops the ball.

It is better to hang the meat for 3 weeks to also allow enzymes to soften connective tissues but at the least give it one week. No self respecting Western rancher would hang if for less than 3 weeks, but your major chain stores and restaurants in the US will settle for one week and it will be 90%.

Cook roasts low and slow and hold in moisture with aluminum foil or a Reynolds bag or a good roaster. I often use a crock pot and cook it about 10 hours until it is shredding. That gives me great sandwich meat or casserole meat or a French dip or whatever. There is enough liquid in that crock pot for juice or gravy or whatever.

Cook steaks hot and fast and remember. They keep cooking inside after you take them off the grill so get them off when they look a little pinker than you like or they will be dry and tougher. People who like steaks rare or medium rare know what they are doing.

Serve always with a glass of wine. LOL.

[IsaanAussie]

So there is the real issue, HANG IT.... WHERE? I have the same issue with pigs and have done the numbers on cold room costs. It is not cheap and not all are efficient. However, since meat is not hung here as in the west, there is an opportunity for those with a discerning market.

The trick is to get the carcass into the cold room or under ice as soon as possible. The beast must go through rigamoris and then age as described above to get the maximum tenderness without losing moisture, colour or pH.

I currently do as close as I can be using a large fridge with very good temperature controls to get as close as I can. If I can ever justify a cold room then the product will be improved a little.

I have thought of using the local iceworks but figure that is a bigger threat to the meat. Better tough than gone!

[NeverSure]

Well, both times I lived in LOS I sometimes managed to buy what looked to me like very fresh and fairly well marbled beef. However I assumed it was really fresh. So I just took it back to my apartment and wrapped it in butcher paper and left it in the refrigerator for ten days before eating it. So I suppose while hanging is best, a really big refrigerator would be next best.

I really apologize but I left out a step in my first post above. It is very important to bleed out the animal very quickly. We hang it by the hind legs and slit its jugular immediately and still go about cleaning it.

I guess a person would have to do the math and decide if there is enough market for a quality product to invest in a cold room. We had another thread where I was wondering about a business model in Thailand of just this thing. I wondered if there would be enough demand for quality beef, say at hotels and finer restaurants to justify an operation that produced between 3 and 7 animals a week. I still don't have a clue. I know only how to produce the beef.

[IsaanAussie]

Well, both times I lived in LOS I sometimes managed to buy what looked to me like very fresh and fairly well marbled beef. However I assumed it was really fresh. So I just took it back to my apartment and wrapped it in butcher paper and left it in the refrigerator for ten days before eating it. So I suppose while hanging is best, a really big refrigerator would be next best.

I really apologize but I left out a step in my first post above. It is very important to bleed out the animal very quickly. We hang it by the hind legs and slit its jugular immediately and still go about cleaning it.

I guess a person would have to do the math and decide if there is enough market for a quality product to invest in a cold room. We had another thread where I was wondering about a business model in Thailand of just this thing. I wondered if there would be enough demand for quality beef, say at hotels and finer restaurants to justify an operation that produced between 3 and 7 animals a week. I still don't have a clue. I know only how to produce the beef.

The answer here is easy. Yes, there is a large enough market to justify the cold room and even a basic slaughter block operation. The kickers are the logistics of delivery and a good western butcher.

[NeverSure]

Well at one time I did the math for output only since I can't guess costs. I was working with one animal per day, 5 days a week, or about 20 animals a month and 60 in 90 days. I also did 90 in 90 days. That's a very small operation. If we could find animals that fattened up to 1,000 pounds or about 2/3 what we see in the US, we'd net about 600 pounds of meat.

I think I know what that meat would be worth and it's a lot in LOS. I just can't get a handle on costs of the animals and feed. I can guess labor.

I can train butchers. That's the least of my worry. I can train everyone. I grew up doing it.

As for logistics, Chaing Mai should absorb the output. In the Western US ranches are often far from market. The animals are shipped live to slaughter houses but a small operation couldn't justify it. The whole operation would have to be within striking distance of Chaing Mai and would need at least 5 rai. No feed would be grown on site. it would be pens, a cold room, and a butcher room.

[IsaanAussie]

Interesting isn't it. To my mind you need to think about two markets. Local meat market to absorb most of the "waste products" then a niche top end market for the select cuts and speciality products. I get around 75% yield from a pig into such a niche, but can sell most of the remainder at wet market prices.

If you look at the tourist centres and major expat residency cities and towns, the market is large and diverse. The marketing to multiple markets across the nation is a challenge as is co-ordinating supply. There are several ways that can be handled but as direct as possible is key to limit add-on costs. My markets are farm to table where possible.

[NeverSure]

Thailand is different in that they put some value on meats that the US consumer doesn't want. We would feed parts of our animals to the hogs. I don't know how to deal with that part.

Actually, when we raise what's called USDA choice meat, we are raising the typical quality meat you'd find most places. USDA prime is rare partly because of newer health concerns among consumers. It has so danged much marbled fat, but oh is it good. Prime rib is almost always really choice rib. It's still really good.

Some very high end restaurants in the big cities will buy a whole or half carcass of beef and butcher it to their liking. This is standard procedure for the high end restaurants. Their buyer comes to the cold house and selects it and signs it with a felt tipped pen. Even the ground beef from that carcass will be wonderful and they'll get top dollar for their gourmet burgers. That carcass wouldn't even be there if it wasn't from a known source and a known herd.

This is way over the top from what you could do in LOS. If you could produce the equivalent of USDA choice grade aged beef it would be wonderful beef.

[jaideeguy]

Thanks guys for all the info. It was mostly a theoretical question and hoping that someone would mention that it is being done by some younger enterprising farmer. I am convinced that it is doable, but for a small household, probably impractical because you need the chill room and all that storage space and I've never heard of either chill rooms or storage lockers here in LOS.

I remember in another life back in Hawaii when I went in halves on the cost of raising a proper cow....forget the breed, but ending up with a lotta cuts of meat that were not my favorite and lots of hamburger. I would say that only 20% was a cut that I normally buy when I'm hungry for beef.

[IsaanAussie]

NS do not sell LOS short, it is being and can be done better. The issue becomes can one entity do it all given the relatively small market versus total investment. For me, from experience here, the answer is yes but not at much above local returns. I deliver prime meats to very discerning customers. It takes resolve,take this offline through a PM any time you like. Happy to share the details but wont give them away...No disrespect meant to anyone.

Edited January 7, 2013 by IsaanAussie

[ozsamurai]

Finally some great information, solid! Not to hijack the thread at all, but since we obviously have a few people with a clue here, has anyone done numbers on sheep? Smaller acerage per head, high Muslim population in the South supporting a local market?

Oz

[IsaanAussie]

Oh come on Oz, the market for lamb is vertically mounted on BBQs in Bangkok. Pity the buggers are so destructive on the land, real wombats, eats, roots and leaves.

[David48]

Solid OP ... great, well informed replies, no BS ... TV at it's best!

Heck ... I was just impressed hat someone kew the difference between the Bos Indicus and Bos Taurus breeds ...

[David48]

While the Cattle Men are gathered round the proverbial campfire ... given Thailand's proximity to Japan, it's (relatively) cheap land and a reasonable wealth of ex-part Cattle Ranchers ... why doesn't anyone explore the Japanese cattle wagyu as a viable export money earner?

[chiangmaikelly]

Thailand is different in that they put some value on meats that the US consumer doesn't want. We would feed parts of our animals to the hogs. I don't know how to deal with that part.

Actually, when we raise what's called USDA choice meat, we are raising the typical quality meat you'd find most places. USDA prime is rare partly because of newer health concerns among consumers. It has so danged much marbled fat, but oh is it good. Prime rib is almost always really choice rib. It's still really good.

Some very high end restaurants in the big cities will buy a whole or half carcass of beef and butcher it to their liking. This is standard procedure for the high end restaurants. Their buyer comes to the cold house and selects it and signs it with a felt tipped pen. Even the ground beef from that carcass will be wonderful and they'll get top dollar for their gourmet burgers. That carcass wouldn't even be there if it wasn't from a known source and a known herd.

This is way over the top from what you could do in LOS. If you could produce the equivalent of USDA choice grade aged beef it would be wonderful beef.

Go to Villa market an buy Thai/French beef. Haven't I said this before?

[IsaanAussie]

Dave,

The ability to raise the beasts is not the issue. It is the costs involved in getting the meat to market at a customer/need based "affordable" price. Japanese restaurants in japan are unbelievable. In a previous life I was dined by the Honda Company at a place with a twenty-filve "Block" menu, unbelievable. About a thousand USD per head. Anything is possible but we farm here in Thailand, and the Japanese expats, even those from Honda and Toyota dont have those discretionary budgets.

For we farang farmers, look for satisfying what is missing not what is the same. Go into a Thai wet market in the afternoon and buy pork to feed your family, happy?

[chiangmaikelly]

Dave,

The ability to raise the beasts is not the issue. It is the costs involved in getting the meat to market at a customer/need based "affordable" price. Japanese restaurants in japan are unbelievable. In a previous life I was dined by the Honda Company at a place with a twenty-filve "Block" menu, unbelievable. About a thousand USD per head. Anything is possible but we farm here in Thailand, and the Japanese expats, even those from Honda and Toyota dont have those discretionary budgets.

For we farang farmers, look for satisfying what is missing not what is the same. Go into a Thai wet market in the afternoon and buy pork to feed your family, happy?

Wagyu beef steak is available at over 60 restaurants all over Thailand right now, tonight if anyone wants to eat it.

Edited January 7, 2013 by chiangmaikelly

[NeverSure]

Even in the US, meat is delivered to restaurants upon order. A town near me of 100,000 people has three such meat companies. They buy their meat from trusted sources already butchered and frozen. Then their trucks go out every day and make deliveries. I don't know of a restaurant which goes out to buy meet. It is all ordered in. Additionally, their produce is delivered by another supplier, and their coffee and spices and soup bases yet another.

I don't think that getting the product to market is an issue if located close to a larger city. I think the issue is finding out what the business model would look like because I don't know the costs. I do know the price is very high in LOS for quality beef.

It's just interesting to think about.

[chiangmaikelly]

Even in the US, meat is delivered to restaurants upon order. A town near me of 100,000 people has three such meat companies. They buy their meat from trusted sources already butchered and frozen. Then their trucks go out every day and make deliveries. I don't know of a restaurant which goes out to buy meet. It is all ordered in. Additionally, their produce is delivered by another supplier, and their coffee and spices and soup bases yet another.

I don't think that getting the product to market is an issue if located close to a larger city. I think the issue is finding out what the business model would look like because I don't know the costs. I do know the price is very high in LOS for quality beef.

It's just interesting to think about.

Wagyu steak dinner to include soup, salad, appetizer, vegetable, starch, steak, dessert and beverage about 1500 baht. Available all over Thailand daily.

[NeverSure]

Even in the US, meat is delivered to restaurants upon order. A town near me of 100,000 people has three such meat companies. They buy their meat from trusted sources already butchered and frozen. Then their trucks go out every day and make deliveries. I don't know of a restaurant which goes out to buy meet. It is all ordered in. Additionally, their produce is delivered by another supplier, and their coffee and spices and soup bases yet another.

I don't think that getting the product to market is an issue if located close to a larger city. I think the issue is finding out what the business model would look like because I don't know the costs. I do know the price is very high in LOS for quality beef.

It's just interesting to think about.

Wagyu steak dinner to include soup, salad, appetizer, vegetable, starch, steak, dessert and beverage about 1500 baht. Available all over Thailand daily.

Kelly, you're wearing me out man. 1500 baht is a terribly high price for that. That's more than double what that would cost in the US at all but the very high end restaurants. There are big chain steakhouses like the Outback and Roadhouse Grill just to mention two which will sell you a good steak dinner with all of those trimmings for $20. They use right down to the hamburger for gourmet burgers and get about double what Micky Dee's gets. Still they are only about ten bucks.

That kind of steak dinner is double or triple in LOS what it is in the US, so someone is leaving some money on the table, pardon the expression.

One thing I don't see in LOS put into action by business is the concept of volume. It seems to me that people want a lot of money for something and then sit there empty. You have to bring McDonalds to town to demonstrate making money on volume. Some of the most profitable businesses in the West are that way due to low prices and volume. Walmart is one example and now Dollar Stores are eating into their market share. Some of the most profitable restaurant chains and retailers in the West are volume discounters.

Japan can't compete with anyone if the product requires land or farm products. They have massively high prices and a shortage of land and fairly high incomes. I'd go head to head with them with farm products from LOS in a heartbeat.

[chiangmaikelly]

Even in the US, meat is delivered to restaurants upon order. A town near me of 100,000 people has three such meat companies. They buy their meat from trusted sources already butchered and frozen. Then their trucks go out every day and make deliveries. I don't know of a restaurant which goes out to buy meet. It is all ordered in. Additionally, their produce is delivered by another supplier, and their coffee and spices and soup bases yet another.

I don't think that getting the product to market is an issue if located close to a larger city. I think the issue is finding out what the business model would look like because I don't know the costs. I do know the price is very high in LOS for quality beef.

It's just interesting to think about.

Wagyu steak dinner to include soup, salad, appetizer, vegetable, starch, steak, dessert and beverage about 1500 baht. Available all over Thailand daily.

Kelly, you're wearing me out man. 1500 baht is a terribly high price for that. That's more than double what that would cost in the US at all but the very high end restaurants. There are big chain steakhouses like the Outback and Roadhouse Grill just to mention two which will sell you a good steak dinner with all of those trimmings for $20. They use right down to the hamburger for gourmet burgers and get about double what Micky Dee's gets. Still they are only about ten bucks.

That kind of steak dinner is double or triple in LOS what it is in the US, so someone is leaving some money on the table, pardon the expression.

One thing I don't see in LOS put into action by business is the concept of volume. It seems to me that people want a lot of money for something and then sit there empty. You have to bring McDonalds to town to demonstrate making money on volume. Some of the most profitable businesses in the West are that way due to low prices and volume. Walmart is one example and now Dollar Stores are eating into their market share. Some of the most profitable restaurant chains and retailers in the West are volume discounters.

Japan can't compete with anyone if the product requires land or farm products. They have massively high prices and a shortage of land and fairly high incomes. I'd go head to head with them with farm products from LOS in a heartbeat.

Ruth Cris steak houose 2100 baht dinner for two. Berns steak house $4 valet parking fee and 12% service charge on every check and the potato is $8.95. Talk apples to apples how much for a Waygu steak dinner in the US?

http://www.forbes.co...obe-beef-lie/2/

$350 Kobe beef steak NYC

http://abcnews.go.co...rves-350-steak/

Edited January 7, 2013 by chiangmaikelly

[lockman]

Thai French beef does age the beef properly and is available throughout Thailand. Just buy that. Is in most Tops supermarkets, Villa, etc. I'm only about 15 KM from 1 of their butcher shop locations, so no problem. However the Hamburger from Sakon Nakhon is fine, but the stuff from Nong Sung isn't quite right, has too much of the tendon left in the grind. But the Sirloin, strip loin, etc is almost equal to US Choice.

[NeverSure]

Even in the US, meat is delivered to restaurants upon order. A town near me of 100,000 people has three such meat companies. They buy their meat from trusted sources already butchered and frozen. Then their trucks go out every day and make deliveries. I don't know of a restaurant which goes out to buy meet. It is all ordered in. Additionally, their produce is delivered by another supplier, and their coffee and spices and soup bases yet another.

I don't think that getting the product to market is an issue if located close to a larger city. I think the issue is finding out what the business model would look like because I don't know the costs. I do know the price is very high in LOS for quality beef.

It's just interesting to think about.

Wagyu steak dinner to include soup, salad, appetizer, vegetable, starch, steak, dessert and beverage about 1500 baht. Available all over Thailand daily.

Kelly, you're wearing me out man. 1500 baht is a terribly high price for that. That's more than double what that would cost in the US at all but the very high end restaurants. There are big chain steakhouses like the Outback and Roadhouse Grill just to mention two which will sell you a good steak dinner with all of those trimmings for $20. They use right down to the hamburger for gourmet burgers and get about double what Micky Dee's gets. Still they are only about ten bucks.

That kind of steak dinner is double or triple in LOS what it is in the US, so someone is leaving some money on the table, pardon the expression.

One thing I don't see in LOS put into action by business is the concept of volume. It seems to me that people want a lot of money for something and then sit there empty. You have to bring McDonalds to town to demonstrate making money on volume. Some of the most profitable businesses in the West are that way due to low prices and volume. Walmart is one example and now Dollar Stores are eating into their market share. Some of the most profitable restaurant chains and retailers in the West are volume discounters.

Japan can't compete with anyone if the product requires land or farm products. They have massively high prices and a shortage of land and fairly high incomes. I'd go head to head with them with farm products from LOS in a heartbeat.

Ruth Cris steak houose 2100 baht dinner for two. Berns steak house $4 valet parking fee and 12% service charge on every check and the potato is $8.95. Talk apples to apples how much for a Waygu steak dinner in the US?

http://www.forbes.co...obe-beef-lie/2/

$350 Kobe beef steak NYC

http://abcnews.go.co...rves-350-steak/

Get off the Forbes report and NYC. That technique is above you. Lets talk about overall US including places like Portland, OR or Jacksonville Fla., Atlanta Ga. or Boise Idaho or even Seattle or Sacramento. Lets go to one of the big chain steakhouses that the middle class crowd into on Fri and Sat night.

Let's just admit that the beef available to the average person in the US or Canada is far superior at a far lower price than anything in LOS.

I already posted that I just caught another sale and put another 60 pounds of USDA choice top sirloin steaks in the freezer at $US2.99 a pound.

[NeverSure]

Thai French beef does age the beef properly and is available throughout Thailand. Just buy that. Is in most Tops supermarkets, Villa, etc. I'm only about 15 KM from 1 of their butcher shop locations, so no problem. However the Hamburger from Sakon Nakhon is fine, but the stuff from Nong Sung isn't quite right, has too much of the tendon left in the grind. But the Sirloin, strip loin, etc is almost equal to US Choice.

How much would you pay for this sirloin steak in these places?

[grimleybob]

The simple answer to the original post is this, you can't get get top quality Beef from poor quality cattle. It can't be done. You need the right genetics. You need Beef that is suckled off its mother and naturally weaned at 8/9 months. You need the right breed to do this.A local bloodline is fine up to 25% but the 75% needs to be from a recognised beef line, Angus, Hereford, Simmental, Gevbeh. or a mixture of more than one. Most of these crosses are common in other parts of the world.

Forget trying to make money out of crap cattle, it can't be done, instead invest time, a considerable amount of money and 6 to 8 years later you could have a very profitable set-up.

The beef market in Thailand has/is growing at about 8% per year

[chiangmaikelly]

Wagyu steak dinner to include soup, salad, appetizer, vegetable, starch, steak, dessert and beverage about 1500 baht. Available all over Thailand daily.

Kelly, you're wearing me out man. 1500 baht is a terribly high price for that. That's more than double what that would cost in the US at all but the very high end restaurants. There are big chain steakhouses like the Outback and Roadhouse Grill just to mention two which will sell you a good steak dinner with all of those trimmings for $20. They use right down to the hamburger for gourmet burgers and get about double what Micky Dee's gets. Still they are only about ten bucks.

That kind of steak dinner is double or triple in LOS what it is in the US, so someone is leaving some money on the table, pardon the expression.

One thing I don't see in LOS put into action by business is the concept of volume. It seems to me that people want a lot of money for something and then sit there empty. You have to bring McDonalds to town to demonstrate making money on volume. Some of the most profitable businesses in the West are that way due to low prices and volume. Walmart is one example and now Dollar Stores are eating into their market share. Some of the most profitable restaurant chains and retailers in the West are volume discounters.

Japan can't compete with anyone if the product requires land or farm products. They have massively high prices and a shortage of land and fairly high incomes. I'd go head to head with them with farm products from LOS in a heartbeat.

Ruth Cris steak houose 2100 baht dinner for two. Berns steak house $4 valet parking fee and 12% service charge on every check and the potato is $8.95. Talk apples to apples how much for a Waygu steak dinner in the US?

http://www.forbes.co...obe-beef-lie/2/

$350 Kobe beef steak NYC

http://abcnews.go.co...rves-350-steak/

Get off the Forbes report and NYC. That technique is above you. Lets talk about overall US including places like Portland, OR or Jacksonville Fla., Atlanta Ga. or Boise Idaho or even Seattle or Sacramento. Lets go to one of the big chain steakhouses that the middle class crowd into on Fri and Sat night.

Let's just admit that the beef available to the average person in the US or Canada is far superior at a far lower price than anything in LOS.

I already posted that I just caught another sale and put another 60 pounds of USDA choice top sirloin steaks in the freezer at $US2.99 a pound.

Lets admit that you have not posted a price for Wagyu beef at a restaurant in the USA. It is available all over Thailand for 1500 baht.

[chiangmaikelly]

Thai French beef does age the beef properly and is available throughout Thailand. Just buy that. Is in most Tops supermarkets, Villa, etc. I'm only about 15 KM from 1 of their butcher shop locations, so no problem. However the Hamburger from Sakon Nakhon is fine, but the stuff from Nong Sung isn't quite right, has too much of the tendon left in the grind. But the Sirloin, strip loin, etc is almost equal to US Choice.

How much would you pay for this sirloin steak in these places?

About 500 baht at the restaurant

http://www.thaifrenchbeef.com/PYK_ENG.html

Beef

Price (Baht/kilogram)

T-Bone 499

Tenderloin / Filet 960

Strip loin 690

Sirloin / Rump steak 320

Rib eye 595

Top round 184

Sirloin tip 184

Brisket 190