American Accused Of Unlawful Encounter With 13 Year Old Girl On Pattaya Beach

[jpinx]

Surely this is only if the offence is deemed to be against the interests of the US? It's a bit of a wild leap to say US law applies worlwide to non-US people!

I agree - but it seems to me that US will take an "interest" where they want.

Example --

If a non-US citizen of country "A" were to be caught in country "B" after stealing the US ambassadors car in country "C" and using it for running guns between country "D" and country "E" do you think the US will sit back and let the local judicial system work it out?

[brewsterbudgen]

Surely this is only if the offence is deemed to be against the interests of the US? It's a bit of a wild leap to say US law applies worlwide to non-US people!

I agree - but it seems to me that US will take an "interest" where they want.

Example --

If a non-US citizen of country "A" were to be caught in country "B" after stealing the US ambassadors car in country "C" and using it for running guns between country "D" and country "E" do you think the US will sit back and let the local judicial system work it out?

No. But that's not really relevant to the offence which is the subject of this thread.

[spidermike007]

JT - someone in this thread was telling about guys getting off with it in Oz when they convinced the judge that they did not know the girls real age. I don't know the specific details of Thai law on this point, or the precedent that as been set which this case might have to rely on, but it appears that only USA take such a brutally hard line......

i honestly do not think any judge in any country would convict anyone if proven beyond doubt that the person genuinely was not aware of the age.

You are TRULY living on another planet, or know nothing about American statutory rape law. Whether or not the defendant knows the real age of the girl has absolutely nothing to do with the conviction. Tens of thousands are serving a decade or more, in federal pens, and they were blindsided, just like this guy. The Americans are very zealous about these cases. They love them. The American govt. is completely out of their minds. And you expect a federal judge to rule in this guys favor? Maybe if she was 17, but in the case of 13, the probability of leniency drops to about 0%.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

In mitigation of my own and others perceptions of the legal issues - we always forget that USA law applies worldwide - even to non-USA people. Hence Assagne's "last stand".

Also - someone earlier in this thread did mention that in Oz it was a reasonable and workable defence if it could be clearly shown that age was not properly clarified to the defendant. I know - that's not USA, but again - we always forget that USA law applies in Thailand

Yes. Exactly. None of us like it, especially those of us that are Americans. Though I personally have zero interest in underage sex, it is quite sickening the extent that these federal swines will pursue someone who makes a mistake of this nature. Basically, one strike and you are out. Your life is over. Who can recover from a ten year prison sentence? And Blundering Barry Obama is doing little to correct judicial errors such as this one. He is even going after the pot growers in California, though it is legal in California now. To describe the errors of the American government and judiciary as ridiculous would be a vast understatement.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Thorgal]

so much love for the pedo here. may ROSENTHAL rot in a cell for a good long while to think about what he did and thank his lucky stars he wasn't caught in the usa or england

Can you differentiate child sex abuse with mutual consent once the offender is caught or never was caught abroad or in his home country ?

Thread #68 is a good one to make the difference.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Thorgal

[Simon1287]

Any truth in the post by BobbyTin on another thread saying: -- The girl in the Rosenthal case, she was 2 weeks before her 18th birthday --

Simon

Edited February 4, 2013 by Simon1287

[jpinx]

Any truth in the post by BobbyTin on another thread saying: -- The girl in the Rosenthal case, she was 2 weeks before her 18th birthday --

Simon

You mean this comment ---?

Not sure if he has sources or is blowing smoke......

[Simon1287]

Yes, that's the one. From a previous post in this thread it appears that he knows the accused guy, so may have info not easily available to the rest of us (or blowing smoke, of course)

This thread does not appear to be showing up on the page for newest posted comments now on the Pattaya forum (it has gone on rather a long while I suppose so the mods may be killing it slowly!) but if there does turn out to be any truth in BobbyTin's comments I sincerely hope the mods will allow it back up there for a short while so the chap can get some of his life back.

Simon

Edited February 4, 2013 by Simon1287

[brewsterbudgen]

Yes, that's the one. From a previous post in this thread it appears that he knows the accused guy, so may have info not easily available to the rest of us (or blowing smoke, of course)

This thread does not appear to be showing up on the page for newest posted comments now on the Pattaya forum (it has gone on rather a long while I suppose so the mods may be killing it slowly!) but if there does turn out to be any truth in BobbyTin's comments I sincerely hope the mods will allow it back up there for a short while so the chap can get some of his life back.

Simon

If it is true, I don't expect there will be much publicity about such a "mistake". Big loss of face....

[spidermike007]

Yes, USA long arm statute might still apply. And I don't know the law in Thailand where money is involved. I will find out tomorrow though as I will be meeting with a group of Thai law professors and will show them this thread. I'm curious about entrapment law in Thailand also. Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying the perpetrators behavior (although I never believe that any incident has been accurately described in a Thai newspaper).

It seems, if one has the means to buy off the policeman before it results in arrest, one can walk away. But, I am told in the case of 16, or under, that it will require a 1,000,000 baht payment, minimum, and one would have to have access to that kind of cash, ASAP. So, for most, this solution is not possible. And of course you would need a compliant cop. Though this seems absurd, I hear this is one instance that is harder to buy ones way out of than most. I am absolutely convinced most people could buy their way out of murder here, regardless of their nationality, but statutory rape may be quite another matter.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Thorgal]

Yes, USA long arm statute might still apply. And I don't know the law in Thailand where money is involved. I will find out tomorrow though as I will be meeting with a group of Thai law professors and will show them this thread. I'm curious about entrapment law in Thailand also. Don't get me wrong, I'm not justifying the perpetrators behavior (although I never believe that any incident has been accurately described in a Thai newspaper).

It seems, if one has the means to buy off the policeman before it results in arrest, one can walk away. But, I am told in the case of 16, or under, that it will require a 1,000,000 baht payment, minimum, and one would have to have access to that kind of cash, ASAP. So, for most, this solution is not possible. And of course you would need a compliant cop. Though this seems absurd, I hear this is one instance that is harder to buy ones way out of than most. I am absolutely convinced most people could buy their way out of murder here, regardless of their nationality, but statutory rape may be quite another matter.

Mike Macarelli

Chaiyaphum, Thailand

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thai police will make a report with the crime facts from the 'victim' and the 'offender'. The police can't press any charges.

After revision of this report by the court, the judge will press charges or not. If they will press charges, the case belongs to the State.

This means that the victim can no more drop the charges if she changes her mind. It will remain as a case between the State vs 'offender'.

Your suggestion of any 'pay-off' should have happened in the police office. And depending on who's representing her in the police station.

[Scully]

I don't understand why people should have a problem with a grown man having sex with an underage girl then having to face the judicial system in their home country on their return. This is how it should be, every sicko would be on a plane to third world countries to carry out their sick fantasies knowing full well that with little chance of being caught money talks and their reputation intact.

A little off topic but the saddest thing I read on thaivisa was a man sitting in a hotel lobby in Cambodia and a young girl of around 7 asked him if he wanted sex with her. People caught in foreign countries having sex with minors should be monitored in their home countries and passports removed,

[FDog]

I don't understand why people should have a problem with a grown man having sex with an underage girl then having to face the judicial system in their home country on their return. This is how it should be, every sicko would be on a plane to third world countries to carry out their sick fantasies knowing full well that with little chance of being caught money talks and their reputation intact.

A little off topic but the saddest thing I read on thaivisa was a man sitting in a hotel lobby in Cambodia and a young girl of around 7 asked him if he wanted sex with her. People caught in foreign countries having sex with minors should be monitored in their home countries and passports removed,

I understand what you are saying. A girl of 7 would make the guy a pedo and is sick. A girl of 13 does NOT make the guy a pedo and in a case such as the OP I just don't believe it is black and white and deserved of a man's life to be ruined.

My gripe with international law is when the age of consent in my home country is higher than the age of consent in another country. Let's say a guy can shag a 16 year old in oz but in another country the age of consent is 15. So if he shags the 15 year old in that country why the hell should he have to face charges in oz simply because it is illegal there. He wasn't in oz, he's complying with the law in his adopted country.

So my view is that if it is legal in the country you are in then that should be the end of it.

Though I'm not saying the subject of the OP acted legally. I just find it far to easy to be a setup.

Edited February 5, 2013 by FDog

[stiggy]

I understand what you are saying. A girl of 7 would make the guy a pedo and is sick. A girl of 13 does NOT make the guy a pedo and in a case such as the OP I just don't believe it is black and white and deserved of a man's life to be ruined.

My gripe with international law is when the age of consent in my home country is higher than the age of consent in another country. Let's say a guy can shag a 16 year old in oz but in another country the age of consent is 15. So if he shags the 15 year old in that country why the hell should he have to face charges in oz simply because it is illegal there. He wasn't in oz, he's complying with the law in his adopted country.

So my view is that if it is legal in the country you are in then that should be the end of it.

Though I'm not saying the subject of the OP acted legally. I just find it far to easy to be a setup.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow make that statement at a dinner table full of parents with 13 year old sons or daughters.

Seriously this thread at times has made me feel sick to the stomach, <deleted> is wrong with some of the posters on here.Regardless of laws, or where you may be Sex with kids is wrong, what is so hard to understand about that.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Rimmer

[Jayman]

I understand what you are saying. A girl of 7 would make the guy a pedo and is sick. A girl of 13 does NOT make the guy a pedo and in a case such as the OP I just don't believe it is black and white and deserved of a man's life to be ruined.

My gripe with international law is when the age of consent in my home country is higher than the age of consent in another country. Let's say a guy can shag a 16 year old in oz but in another country the age of consent is 15. So if he shags the 15 year old in that country why the hell should he have to face charges in oz simply because it is illegal there. He wasn't in oz, he's complying with the law in his adopted country.

So my view is that if it is legal in the country you are in then that should be the end of it.

Though I'm not saying the subject of the OP acted legally. I just find it far to easy to be a setup.

Wow make that statement at a dinner table full of parents with 13 year old sons or daughters.

Seriously this thread at times has made me feel sick to the stomach, <deleted> is wrong with some of the posters on here.Regardless of laws, or where you may be Sex with kids is wrong, what is so hard to understand about that.

In my religion, at 13 years old you are considered a man. That has been the case for thousands of years.

I'm certainly not condoning sex with children but lets keep things in perspective here.

[Rimmer]

Please be sure to use the QUOTE function when replying to a previous message. Not to do so can attribute posts to the wrong posters

[stiggy]

Oh so your religion allows it, thats ok then everything is in perspective.

* thanks for help with Quote Rimmer.

[Jayman]

Oh so your religion allows it, thats ok then everything is in perspective.

* thanks for help with Quote Rimmer.

If you wanna get sick to your stomach cause a 13 year old woman is out there prostituting herself and a John, thinking she was older, picked her up for a good time then so be it. Personally, yes, I think you are blowing things way out of perspective.

Do you think she was going to be raped?

[Spoonman]

I understand what you are saying. A girl of 7 would make the guy a pedo and is sick. A girl of 13 does NOT make the guy a pedo and in a case such as the OP I just don't believe it is black and white and deserved of a man's life to be ruined.

My gripe with international law is when the age of consent in my home country is higher than the age of consent in another country. Let's say a guy can shag a 16 year old in oz but in another country the age of consent is 15. So if he shags the 15 year old in that country why the hell should he have to face charges in oz simply because it is illegal there. He wasn't in oz, he's complying with the law in his adopted country.

So my view is that if it is legal in the country you are in then that should be the end of it.

Though I'm not saying the subject of the OP acted legally. I just find it far to easy to be a setup.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow make that statement at a dinner table full of parents with 13 year old sons or daughters.

If your 13 year old son/daughter is still prepubescent I would suggest there is greater issues on hand than what is spoken at the dinner table.

[Exsexyman]

Oh so your religion allows it, thats ok then everything is in perspective.

* thanks for help with Quote Rimmer.

If you wanna get sick to your stomach cause a 13 year old woman is out there prostituting herself and a John, thinking she was older, picked her up for a good time then so be it. Personally, yes, I think you are blowing things way out of perspective.

Do you think she was going to be raped?

"A 13 year old WOMAN"? Are you serious? If you are you have a problem. Get help.

[Jayman]

Oh so your religion allows it, thats ok then everything is in perspective.

* thanks for help with Quote Rimmer.

If you wanna get sick to your stomach cause a 13 year old woman is out there prostituting herself and a John, thinking she was older, picked her up for a good time then so be it. Personally, yes, I think you are blowing things way out of perspective.

Do you think she was going to be raped?

"A 13 year old WOMAN"? Are you serious? If you are you have a problem. Get help.

Why don't you offer your definition for the rest of the class. I consider a girl a woman when she can bear children. If you define it by their maturity level then most of the Thais are still children.

EDIT: To be clear, yet again, just because I refer to her as a woman does not mean I condone having sex with 13 year olds.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Jayman

[Thorgal]

I understand what you are saying. A girl of 7 would make the guy a pedo and is sick. A girl of 13 does NOT make the guy a pedo and in a case such as the OP I just don't believe it is black and white and deserved of a man's life to be ruined.

My gripe with international law is when the age of consent in my home country is higher than the age of consent in another country. Let's say a guy can shag a 16 year old in oz but in another country the age of consent is 15. So if he shags the 15 year old in that country why the hell should he have to face charges in oz simply because it is illegal there. He wasn't in oz, he's complying with the law in his adopted country.

So my view is that if it is legal in the country you are in then that should be the end of it.

Though I'm not saying the subject of the OP acted legally. I just find it far to easy to be a setup.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow make that statement at a dinner table full of parents with 13 year old sons or daughters.

Seriously this thread at times has made me feel sick to the stomach, <deleted> is wrong with some of the posters on here.Regardless of laws, or where you may be Sex with kids is wrong, what is so hard to understand about that.

You picked one sentence of the original quote and changed the context of his reply.

To understand his original quote you should arrange a table for yourself with parents who drop systematicaly their children for child sex and child slavery in city's like Pattaya.

You will leave the table before the dessert...

Edited February 5, 2013 by Thorgal

[TommoPhysicist]

Wow make that statement at a dinner table full of parents with 13 year old sons or daughters.

Seriously this thread at times has made me feel sick to the stomach, <deleted> is wrong with some of the posters on here.Regardless of laws, or where you may be Sex with kids is wrong, what is so hard to understand about that.

Of course the problem is, who gets to define who is a kid and who isn't.

Everyone can agree sex with a kid is wrong, now let's hear who is a kid and why?

Hill tribe children in Thailand are often married with children at 13.

Many other place in the world this is legal (Alabama?)

Before you have a go at me, can I just say I define kids as anyone under 25 ....... sex with anyone younger than that should be a hanging offense ........ just my opinion.

Edited February 5, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[Jayman]

Wow make that statement at a dinner table full of parents with 13 year old sons or daughters.

Seriously this thread at times has made me feel sick to the stomach, <deleted> is wrong with some of the posters on here.Regardless of laws, or where you may be Sex with kids is wrong, what is so hard to understand about that.

Of course the problem is, who gets to define who is a kid and who isn't.

Everyone can agree sex with a kid is wrong, now let's hear who is a kid and why?

Hill tribe children in Thailand are often married with children at 13.

Many other place in the world this is legal (Alabama?)

Before you have a go at me, can I just say I define kids as anyone under 25 ....... sex with anyone younger than that should be a hanging offense ........ just my opinion.

Formula I was taught (maybe from my father) is the ideal age of your wife should be 1/2 your age + 7.

So at 32 I married a 22 year old.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Jayman

[BlackPuddingBertha]

I don't understand why people should have a problem with a grown man having sex with an underage girl then having to face the judicial system in their home country on their return. This is how it should be, .....

Fair enough.

And so everyone who is caught drunk-driving here should be punished in their own country according to the penalties that are applied to the offence there?

And so every bent farang businessman in Thailand should also be penalised in his own country according to the laws they have there?

And should anyone from Malaysia who deals drugs in the UK be sent home to be executed?

And should a woman from the Arab states who has legitimate sex in Thailand be sent home to be stoned to death?

Many laws throughout the world are unjust and over the top, and in many other places throughout the world many things that some might call crimes go completely unpunished because locally no one thinks they are at all important. Why should someone in one country decide what is and isnt illegal in another? That's for the locals to decide. It's their country after all.

When in Rome do as the Romans do, and if you dont like that you can always just stay in your home country and feel smug. Though it seems that in fact you prefer it here to there. I wonder why?

[FDog]

I understand what you are saying. A girl of 7 would make the guy a pedo and is sick. A girl of 13 does NOT make the guy a pedo and in a case such as the OP I just don't believe it is black and white and deserved of a man's life to be ruined.

My gripe with international law is when the age of consent in my home country is higher than the age of consent in another country. Let's say a guy can shag a 16 year old in oz but in another country the age of consent is 15. So if he shags the 15 year old in that country why the hell should he have to face charges in oz simply because it is illegal there. He wasn't in oz, he's complying with the law in his adopted country.

So my view is that if it is legal in the country you are in then that should be the end of it.

Though I'm not saying the subject of the OP acted legally. I just find it far to easy to be a setup.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow make that statement at a dinner table full of parents with 13 year old sons or daughters.

Seriously this thread at times has made me feel sick to the stomach, <deleted> is wrong with some of the posters on here.Regardless of laws, or where you may be Sex with kids is wrong, what is so hard to understand about that.

Where has anyone said sex with kids is right? All anyone has said is that if the 'kid' lies about her age and says she is 19 then in my view the guy has done no wrong. What is so hard to understand about that.

And before you jump off your high horse and break a leg why don't you actually look up the definition of a pedophile. I doubt a girl out selling her 'good's at 13 is pre pubescent.

I'm not condoning sex with a 13 year old, when the guy does actually know her age. But really, get a grip and stop the emotive pedo talk when that is patently wrong.

[Thaddeus]

Formula I was taught (maybe from my father) is the ideal age of your wife should be 1/2 your age + 7.

Are you Robert Anson Heinlein's kid?

[Jayman]

Formula I was taught (maybe from my father) is the ideal age of your wife should be 1/2 your age + 7.

Are you Robert Anson Heinlein's kid?

http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=half-your-age-plus-seven

Sent from my GT-I9100T

[IrishIvan]

In a case like this, is the accused held on remand or given bail?

If convicted, would he be deported (after serving time in Thailand) and, if so, would he face charges in the US?

Bail is possible, if convicted it means blacklisting.

There will be no charges in the US if he is sentenced in Thailand. You cannot be convicted twice for the same offence. If he would skip bail and flee the country to the US he could face prosecution in the US.

Wrong, when it comes to child sex crimes most western countries will prosecute you when you get to your country of citizenship. It stops these filthy perverts from paying their way out. Remember Gary Glitter? He got done when he returned to the UK. There is also no statute of limitations for abusing children in a lot of western countries, so if it can be proved then there is no escape. A right whack for these animals. Im fairly sure also that the legal age for consent is 18 in Thailand.

[toenail]

4:30 in the morning???? Not to defend this horny male, but I wonder what state of mind he had at this time of the night (drunk?); thus, not able to tell what age the girl was in the dark. Next, I think the police should be more upset with a minor being out this late at night -- no brainer. She should have been at sleep at home, going to school at sun rise.

Edited February 6, 2013 by metisdead
: Bold font removed.

[Orac]

In a case like this, is the accused held on remand or given bail?

If convicted, would he be deported (after serving time in Thailand) and, if so, would he face charges in the US?

Bail is possible, if convicted it means blacklisting.

There will be no charges in the US if he is sentenced in Thailand. You cannot be convicted twice for the same offence. If he would skip bail and flee the country to the US he could face prosecution in the US.

Wrong, when it comes to child sex crimes most western countries will prosecute you when you get to your country of citizenship. It stops these filthy perverts from paying their way out. Remember Gary Glitter? He got done when he returned to the UK. There is also no statute of limitations for abusing children in a lot of western countries, so if it can be proved then there is no escape. A right whack for these animals. Im fairly sure also that the legal age for consent is 18 in Thailand.

The extent of Gary Glitter's punishment on returning to the UK was to be put on the Sex Offenders Register for life. Since he had already been placed on it before for the child porn pics on his computer a few years before I am not sure how harsh a punishment that was for him - at least under the new rules from last year he has to notify the police when he travels abroad now. Maybe under the Yewtree/Saville investigations they will charge him with something but, as far as his shenanigans in Vietnam/Cambodia are concerned, the UK law has hardly touched him.