U K Parliament Backs Gay Marriage Bill

[onthemoon]

I'm not a conservative, but socialist. Gay marriage isn't really a political issue, it crosses all sorts of fault lines. I'm mostly against gay marriage because I'm so hacked off by gay issues. I don't care what you do in your bedrooms, or how much you love another man, but the most detailed knowledge has been forced upon me and people like me for I don't know how many years. It's you people who drag your proclivities into the spotlight, while they should remain private. You dominate the news far more then your percentage of the population would call for. Yes I look the other way and feel embarassed when I watch a gay couple kissing in public or holding hands while walking. Please realize that not only homosexuality is based in nature, but also homophobia. It's a reaction you can't do anything about, not a choice. Many heterosexual men really get goosebumps or worse when approached or flirted with by a gay.

I don't care what you do in your bedroom, but your heterosexual lifestyle has been shoved down my throat for decades. Why don't you keep it private?

[onthemoon]

No takers?

I still have yet to hear a single reasonable argument as to how this negatively impacts heterosexual marriage.

Bernard Russel wrote “But for children, there would be no need of any institution concerned with sex….It is through children alone that sexual relations become of importance to society, and worthy to be taken cognizance of by a legal institution.” That institution, of course, is marriage, opposite-sex marriage.

Both parents are responsible for their children. In a homosexual marriage, I guess that's only the case when children are adopted by both, husbands or wives. If one of them sires a kid with a person of the opposite sex, that's not the case.

So yes, I think the heterosexual marriage could suffers because gay marriage offers the same privileges, but fewer responsibilities. Male gay marriages will remain childless in 99% of the cases, for them it's a way to save some taxes, but they still violate the multigenerational contract which is to bring up kids who would care for them when the gays grow old. Children are the means by which a society continues to exist.

Gay marriage is not a fundamental, human or whatever right either. Real fundamental rights have foundations in history, traditions, practises, there have to be precedents.

So you say that straight couples who marry should be forced to have children? Otherwise... what?

[onthemoon]

This choice thing is a can of worms.

As far as civil rights is concerned: it does not matter.

I have never met even one exclusive gay man who thought he chose to be gay.

Many gay men who aren't really bisexual experiment with hetero sex just as many straight men experiment with gay sex. Neither kind of exploration changes a person's sexual orientation just because of the sex. Often people experiment just to confirm (or not) what their feelings really are.

There is a huge range of human sexual experience, crossing the spectrum of simple orientation labels.

Of course, there is the Kinsey scale thing. Lots of people are bisexual. Women's sexuality is VERY DIFFERENT than male sexuality. Consider the phenom of college lesbianism. Academic studies tend to show women's sexuality is much more fluid than men's, and men's is generally set in concrete, and set VERY EARLY. With bisexuals, of course they are free to CHOOSE who they love either short term or as a lifetime commitment and the object(s) of their affection can be either gender.

A discussion of the VAST topic of etiology of sexual orientation, gay, bi, straight, etc. is way beyond the scope of this topic.

Using the complexity of the choice red herring as a reason to justify denying gay people equal civil rights is just another TRAP. Civil rights advocates should reject such traps. The issue is EQUAL civil rights. Period. How and why people became the sexual orientation they are is an interesting academic question but there is no logical reason to directly link this to the civil rights demand. No, exclusive gay men didn't choose, exclusive gay men know that, but again, it does not matter. People should be FREE to choose if they could, anyway.

And that's part of the objection. Equal civil rights. Period.

You don't stop. You always find something else. So then it would be the right to have biological children etc etc. You have admitted that by using equal rights. Period.

Why would anybody choose to be gay? Your parents are straight, so is (most of) your environment, but you find out at a certain age (it was 13 for me, not 4) that you are attracted to people of the same sex. This causes lots of problems, including feeling isolated and thinking "I''m the only gay in the village". Not a nice situation, many young people commit suicide. How is being gay a choice?

On the other hand, I agree that it is about civil rights, and the word "marriage" is a word. For religious people, it may hold a religious value, for me it doesn't.

[onthemoon]

I am in a civil partnership and am sick and tired of people asking "what's that?"

I look forward to being able to change our status and when i say to people "i'm married" they'll get it.

I did not choose to be gay, it's been a long and hard struggle. Reading some of the comments on this forum makes me want to cry.

Some of your words are so shallow, no thought to real peoples lives. Are you not able to put yourselves in others shoes?

What possible difference would it make to any of you if my partner and i are married or not?

As for you Phuketjock, for someone who has a hard time with "skin tax" i doubt you'd have made it past the age of 7 had you been born gay!

Please all of you - try to be kind.

I acknowledge your cry for sympathy and I have a " hard time " with anything that I think is wrong and/or unfair, and that happens to

include gay marriage and double pricing. I don't let it rule my life though and I have yet to come to tears over it.There are many more

but that's not the point. As I have already stated I do not believe anyone is born gay, thats probably why I made it past the age of 7.

If you are determined to behave different from other people why does it bother or surprise you when you are treated differently by

people??

I'm not asking for sympathy thanks.

Can you tell me why you think anyone would choose to be gay?

[/quote}

" Just one day realized same sex did it for me and opposite sex didn't."

This is JT's reason apparently, which he claims was not his choice strangely, as for anyone else I have absolutely no idea,

weakness perhaps, I really can't imagine why anyone would wish to have a sexual relationship with someone of the same

sex or feel that it was necessary to marry them. It is not going to go anywhere is it?

Good for you. I for one cannot understand how you can have a sexual and otherwise fulfilling relationship with someone of the opposite gender. I tried, believe me. It is just not for me.

And I am not saying that a same-sex partner is good for you. I don't even say you should try. I am just saying that I accept you and your heterosexuality, even though I cannot understand it. All I want from you is to reciprocate the respect.

Edited February 16, 2013 by onthemoon

[onthemoon]

I can read, AND i can read between the lines, as pointed out, i'm just not good with this quote business.

There were no lines... but your imagination is working overtime.. i disagree so i'm a gay hater..right.. exactly what i stated to Jing about being ostracized for different views..

i simply asked why you would tell everyone you meet that you are in a civil relationship.. if talking to friends etc .. i could not see the problem.. and just with that question i'm a gay hater...wow

It seems that your imagination is working overtime. Why do you think i go round telling everyone that i'm in a civil partnership?

Over the past few years i've had forms to fill, met people who've asked if i'm single or not, been in many situations where i've had to introduce my partner etc etc etc. All part of every day life. As i said it gets boring having to keep spelling it out, it will be much easier and much better understood when i can say "we are married" Why is that so difficult to understand?

Friends of mine who are in a civil partnership just say they are married. What's the difference anyway (apart from a religious connotation)?

[Goldieinkathu]

I can read, AND i can read between the lines, as pointed out, i'm just not good with this quote business.

There were no lines... but your imagination is working overtime.. i disagree so i'm a gay hater..right.. exactly what i stated to Jing about being ostracized for different views..

i simply asked why you would tell everyone you meet that you are in a civil relationship.. if talking to friends etc .. i could not see the problem.. and just with that question i'm a gay hater...wow

It seems that your imagination is working overtime. Why do you think i go round telling everyone that i'm in a civil partnership?

Over the past few years i've had forms to fill, met people who've asked if i'm single or not, been in many situations where i've had to introduce my partner etc etc etc. All part of every day life. As i said it gets boring having to keep spelling it out, it will be much easier and much better understood when i can say "we are married" Why is that so difficult to understand?

Friends of mine who are in a civil partnership just say they are married. What's the difference anyway (apart from a religious connotation)?

I'd like to say "we're married" and for it to be true, but we're not, we're in a Civil Partnership, stated clearly on the certificate. I would like to have a Marriage certificate and be like everyone else. Most of all i'd like to not be dismissed as some sort of freak when we show our Civil Partnership certificate when applying for insurance, visa's , bank loans etc - that really pisses me off.

Just to be treated the same , that's all we want.

We are no different, we have the same wants, and needs, the same dreams. Life is hard enough, it would just be nice if the powers that be could make it a level playing field.

[Jingthing]

Again, in secular countries any religious connotation or involvement in marriage is OPTIONAL.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Jingthing

[Morden]

I'd like to say "we're married" and for it to be true, but we're not, we're in a Civil Partnership, stated clearly on the certificate. I would like to have a Marriage certificate and be like everyone else. Most of all i'd like to not be dismissed as some sort of freak when we show our Civil Partnership certificate when applying for insurance, visa's , bank loans etc - that really pisses me off.

Just to be treated the same , that's all we want.

We are no different, we have the same wants, and needs, the same dreams. Life is hard enough, it would just be nice if the powers that be could make it a level playing field.

I genuinely feel sorry for you. I have been told stories about the treatment of homosexuals, going back to when the condition was illegal, and the problems that homosexual couples face and I have an understanding, though very limited perhaps, of what you experience.

The fact is, though, that for the foreseeable future you will not be accepted by many as the same as everyone else. Unmarried heterosexual couples have had the same problems when applying for loans and insurance and I doubt whether it's yet resolved. There are many other groups that don't fit the mould of 'same'. Any minority will be made aware of it's differences from time to time. Probably everyone here has something that annoys him because he feels disadvantage at times. Despite laws to do with access and discrimination, disabled people are constantly reminded by circumstances that they are different from the majority. UK State pensioners who live here don't get annual increases in the amount. People who are critically ill have mobility and other problems that may deny them the full life that they once had. The world is full of minority groups that don't get the same recognition or status as the majority.

One reason why homosexual marriage is such an issue with many is that it must, surely, give more rights than a civil partnership. We have to guess what those rights might be but, in the meantime, many are concerned.

Perhaps the answer is to quietly lobby for change and, in the meantime, adjust to the world as it is. The bellicose screaming that we have had on this tread does nothing to persuade people to regard homosexuals as the same as themselves. In fact, it probably irritates many who have only a passing interest in matters that are of great importance to you. Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade.

[Chicog]

Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade.

Tell that to Rosa Parks or Ruby Bridges.

[Credo]

Perhaps the answer is to quietly lobby for change and, in the meantime, adjust to the world as it is. The bellicose screaming that we have had on this tread does nothing to persuade people to regard homosexuals as the same as themselves. In fact, it probably irritates many who have only a passing interest in matters that are of great importance to you. Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade.

It sounds like the majority now seem to agree with the minority on this issue.

[sustento]

Perhaps the answer is to quietly lobby for change and, in the meantime, adjust to the world as it is. The bellicose screaming that we have had on this tread does nothing to persuade people to regard homosexuals as the same as themselves. In fact, it probably irritates many who have only a passing interest in matters that are of great importance to you. Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade.

It sounds like the majority now seem to agree with the minority on this issue.

Sufficiently so that their elected representatives voted for it by an overwhelming majority.

[SteeleJoe]

@Morden - You probably took some time and care with that post, as it is well written (and ostensibly reasonable though not even close to balanced) and perhaps I should do the same with mine but I think I'm about wore out with this stuff so while I'm impelled to respond, I can't do more than fire off this immediate response. Hopefully I won't think better of it but for what it's worth...

...Unmarried heterosexual couples have had the same problems when applying for loans and insurance and I doubt whether it's yet resolved. There are many other groups that don't fit the mould of 'same'. Any minority will be made aware of it's differences from time to time. Probably everyone here has something that annoys him because he feels disadvantage at times. Despite laws to do with access and discrimination, disabled people are constantly reminded by circumstances that they are different from the majority. UK State pensioners who live here don't get annual increases in the amount. People who are critically ill have mobility and other problems that may deny them the full life that they once had. The world is full of minority groups that don't get the same recognition or status as the majority.

None of that is mandated or prohibited by law (unmarried couples? what do they have to do with it? How can you compare the problems of people who choose not to marry with people who are not allowed to marry when the whole point of the issue is that right to marry?) Simply not analogous.

"One reason why homosexual marriage is such an issue with many is that it must, surely, give more rights than a civil partnership. We have to guess what those rights might be but, in the meantime, many are concerned."

That's ONE reason. The other is even worse I'll wager. Many are "concerned" with the idea of the Gay people having equal rights. That is the crux of it indeed

"Perhaps the answer is to quietly lobby for change and, in the meantime, adjust to the world as it is. The bellicose screaming that we have had on this tread does nothing to persuade people to regard homosexuals as the same as themselves. In fact, it probably irritates many who have only a passing interest in matters that are of great importance to you. Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade."

Yes, don't make a fuss. Minorities struggling for equality should be quiet and unobtrusive and careful not to offend. Do you not realize how that sounds? And have you no historical perspective?

People who have only a passing interest wouldn't spend time reading this thread and wouldn't get upset.

And PLEASE show me the posts that constitute "bellicose screaming".

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Edited February 18, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Goldieinkathu]

I'd like to say "we're married" and for it to be true, but we're not, we're in a Civil Partnership, stated clearly on the certificate. I would like to have a Marriage certificate and be like everyone else. Most of all i'd like to not be dismissed as some sort of freak when we show our Civil Partnership certificate when applying for insurance, visa's , bank loans etc - that really pisses me off.

Just to be treated the same , that's all we want.

We are no different, we have the same wants, and needs, the same dreams. Life is hard enough, it would just be nice if the powers that be could make it a level playing field.

I genuinely feel sorry for you. I have been told stories about the treatment of homosexuals, going back to when the condition was illegal, and the problems that homosexual couples face and I have an understanding, though very limited perhaps, of what you experience.

The fact is, though, that for the foreseeable future you will not be accepted by many as the same as everyone else. Unmarried heterosexual couples have had the same problems when applying for loans and insurance and I doubt whether it's yet resolved. There are many other groups that don't fit the mould of 'same'. Any minority will be made aware of it's differences from time to time. Probably everyone here has something that annoys him because he feels disadvantage at times. Despite laws to do with access and discrimination, disabled people are constantly reminded by circumstances that they are different from the majority. UK State pensioners who live here don't get annual increases in the amount. People who are critically ill have mobility and other problems that may deny them the full life that they once had. The world is full of minority groups that don't get the same recognition or status as the majority.

One reason why homosexual marriage is such an issue with many is that it must, surely, give more rights than a civil partnership. We have to guess what those rights might be but, in the meantime, many are concerned.

Perhaps the answer is to quietly lobby for change and, in the meantime, adjust to the world as it is. The bellicose screaming that we have had on this tread does nothing to persuade people to regard homosexuals as the same as themselves. In fact, it probably irritates many who have only a passing interest in matters that are of great importance to you. Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade.

I would gladly fight for the rights of the disabled,critically ill and pensioners and anyone else who I felt was being unfairly treated.When there is a thread about their issues I will be there belicose screaming as you put it.

"Irritation" is a mosquito flying around my ears, not people fighting for their right for a better life, anyone who is irritated by this subject needs to take a good look at themselves.

"The world is full of minority groups that don't get the same recognition or status as the majority" - indeed, and it's time things changed.I don't have time to "adjust to the world as it is", i've already spent more than half my life waiting, my time is running out. I would like to experience life like the majority.

"Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade" - am i abusing and annoying you?

[SteeleJoe]

I'd like to say "we're married" and for it to be true, but we're not, we're in a Civil Partnership, stated clearly on the certificate. I would like to have a Marriage certificate and be like everyone else. Most of all i'd like to not be dismissed as some sort of freak when we show our Civil Partnership certificate when applying for insurance, visa's , bank loans etc - that really pisses me off.

Just to be treated the same , that's all we want.

We are no different, we have the same wants, and needs, the same dreams. Life is hard enough, it would just be nice if the powers that be could make it a level playing field.

I genuinely feel sorry for you. I have been told stories about the treatment of homosexuals, going back to when the condition was illegal, and the problems that homosexual couples face and I have an understanding, though very limited perhaps, of what you experience.

The fact is, though, that for the foreseeable future you will not be accepted by many as the same as everyone else. Unmarried heterosexual couples have had the same problems when applying for loans and insurance and I doubt whether it's yet resolved. There are many other groups that don't fit the mould of 'same'. Any minority will be made aware of it's differences from time to time. Probably everyone here has something that annoys him because he feels disadvantage at times. Despite laws to do with access and discrimination, disabled people are constantly reminded by circumstances that they are different from the majority. UK State pensioners who live here don't get annual increases in the amount. People who are critically ill have mobility and other problems that may deny them the full life that they once had. The world is full of minority groups that don't get the same recognition or status as the majority.

One reason why homosexual marriage is such an issue with many is that it must, surely, give more rights than a civil partnership. We have to guess what those rights might be but, in the meantime, many are concerned.

Perhaps the answer is to quietly lobby for change and, in the meantime, adjust to the world as it is. The bellicose screaming that we have had on this tread does nothing to persuade people to regard homosexuals as the same as themselves. In fact, it probably irritates many who have only a passing interest in matters that are of great importance to you. Minorities don't gain from abusing and annoying those whom they wish to persuade.

I would gladly fight for the rights of the disabled,critically ill and pensioners and anyone else who I felt was being unfairly treated.

]

Please be sure not to annoy anyone when you do. Especially those with only a passing interest.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[Denizen]

It was my perception that homosexuality had already been legislated as compulsory in the UK.

[Jingthing]

It was my perception that homosexuality had already been legislated as compulsory in the UK.

I think you mean public school. Edited February 18, 2013 by Jingthing