Dozens Of Countries Aided U S Secret Detentions: Report

[Swiss1960]

There are some surprises on this list. More than a few that one wouldn't expect to be on the list. I wonder why?

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Iran, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Sweden, , Thailand, United Kingdom, Zimbabwe (The US should send Zimbabwe a check, they are a little short of cash this month). .

Most of these countries provided either intelligent or logistics support - logistics for example allowing the CIA flights to land / fuel or overflight without checking (actually knowing) who is on board... this is well documented for years already. In some countries, suspects were captured and the countries accepted the suspects to be brought out of the country without any legal process (Italy has known examples of such kidnappings)

[qdinthailand]

Who exactly is Open Society.? Founded by George Soros.

Read it here: http://www.opensocie...alizing-torture

Thanks for the link.

Read it with dismay, and the Bios of its staff. Very depressing.

At least Mr Soros is not doing anything useful with his billions, that he was happy to "earn" in the U.S.

He could be funding clean water projects, cataract reduction programs, malaria control programs, birth control programs, but no, he wants to bite the hand that fed him and promote anti-western propaganda, and encourage terrorism.

It is time the U.S government considered such people guilty of treasonable behavior, and "discouraged" them.

George Soros' Open Society initiate was formed to open up former Communist societies, first in Hungary, then in the Soviet Union, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Romania. He tried to open up conditions in those countries in order to 'free' the common person. Truly the work of a Commie!

His real impact on America, and his first foray into American politics was after Bush invaded Iraq. Growing up in Hungary and observing the rise of Hitler and Nazi Germany, he felt that Bush was a similar danger for the United States. He never called Bush a Nazi; he simply felt that Bush represented the same type of danger to the U.S. So he started funding Democratic leaning political causes in an effort to see Bush defeated in 2004.

And for that, he has forever since been vilified by the right wing of America, and accused of funding every left wing, liberal cause fighting the right - which is an absolute lie. He did drop some money into the 2008 campaign, again into left-leaning groups, but I don't believe he dropped anything into the 2012 campaign. And he hasn't put in nearly the kind of money into the U.S. elections as conservatives have.

But then again, you would prefer to believe everything you hear on Fox News, and from Drudge and World Nut Daily about old George, instead of looking into the truth.

[simple1]

An interesting thread. It's about the countries that aided in the detention and rendition, but hey, let's not look at any of those countries. Better just stick to US bashing.

You're right - US lead policy with collaboration by it's allies, plus some strange friends at time such as Libya (extraordinary rendition) who were well know to use torture

[Ulysses G.]

"Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible."

I agree.

[F430murci]

And people wonder why the US govt is so hated.

They did also take innocent people with their renditions. Italy currently has warrants out for some US operatives who kidnapped a guy from the streets in Italy for rendition. It is ridiculous to say that those subject to rendition and torture were only terrorists. An Australian was tortured and has been paid compensation because it was a mistake.

Most of the prisoners in Guantanamo have never been charged with anything. So to say that they are terrorists is just a complete lie because they actually don't know. Just round em up and torture them to see who they actually have.

If all this was for the good of the people then why did the govt's complicit in this want it all kept secret? I remember it became public that the UK allowed a plane transporting one of those poor guys subject to rendition to use it's airspace. Of course the govt would have known but only when it became public knowledge and the uproar of it did the UK govt then pretend to throw a hissy fit.

I have no doubt my own oz govt was complicit as we just bend over and take it up the ass for the US. Every time they ask us for help we jump. Though I would hope after the lies of GWB and the fact that these things are now becoming public that they will be a bit more cautious next time.

I'm sure there are those that will simply not believe there was torture, even though GWB admitted he gave such orders. Who cares where the report comes from, comment on the report instead of the people who did it.

Does anyone actually believe this didn't go on?

Why did oz bend over and take it up the whatever as you say, because junior and his cabinet of thugs used terroror tactics to get their way. They did it here in the US which is what turned me against this party so much.

If you questioned anything they did, or God forbid you speak out against them, they would ruin you. They did it over and over to millitary personnel, CIA agents and politician as they would start a smear campaign and set out to ruin careers and lives if you went against them.

They truly had an inquisition mentality and they kept some public support by constantly going on the media and playing on their political base's fears through all of those evil thugs and axis of evil speeches.

Point being, they did same with other countries. Junior's administration was a pretty much your for us, meaning let us do whatever we want, or your against us and you don't want to be against us type crap. Still makes me sick that people fell for this <deleted> and voted for junior and his thugs again.

Edited February 6, 2013 by F430murci

[Ulysses G.]

"Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible."

I agree.

Easy to agree when it is not you or someone you know that gets shafted and has their entire life ruined for no reason at all.

I am not a terrorist and don't know any.Terrorists ruin other people's lives which is good reason to stop them.

[F430murci]

"Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible."

I agree.

Easy to agree when it is not you or someone you know that gets shafted and has their entire life ruined for no reason at all.

I am not a terrorist and don't know any.Terrorists ruin other people's lives which is good reason to stop them.

The people in those articles were not terrorists either. I appreciate your confirming that you believe you are not, but that was neither the point nor the question. The point was simply what if you were wrongly accused, placed into solitary for a year, labeled a terrorist and then just let go after a year, after which you could not get a job or return to your profession, lose your house, cars, girlfriend, friends and money.

Edited February 6, 2013 by F430murci

[FDog]

"Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible."

I agree.

Easy to agree when it is not you or someone you know that gets shafted and has their entire life ruined for no reason at all.

I am not a terrorist and don't know any.Terrorists ruin other people's lives which is good reason to stop them.

The question of whether or not you are a terrorist is not for YOU to decide.

[Asiantravel]

Who exactly is Open Society.? Founded by George Soros.

Read it here: http://www.opensocie...alizing-torture

Thanks for the link.

Read it with dismay, and the Bios of its staff. Very depressing.

At least Mr Soros is not doing anything useful with his billions, that he was happy to "earn" in the U.S.

He could be funding clean water projects, cataract reduction programs, malaria control programs, birth control programs, but no, he wants to bite the hand that fed him and promote anti-western propaganda, and encourage terrorism.

It is time the U.S government considered such people guilty of treasonable behavior, and "discouraged" them.

George Soros' Open Society initiate was formed to open up former Communist societies, first in Hungary, then in the Soviet Union, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Romania. He tried to open up conditions in those countries in order to 'free' the common person. Truly the work of a Commie!

His real impact on America, and his first foray into American politics was after Bush invaded Iraq. Growing up in Hungary and observing the rise of Hitler and Nazi Germany, he felt that Bush was a similar danger for the United States. He never called Bush a Nazi; he simply felt that Bush represented the same type of danger to the U.S. So he started funding Democratic leaning political causes in an effort to see Bush defeated in 2004.

And for that, he has forever since been vilified by the right wing of America, and accused of funding every left wing, liberal cause fighting the right - which is an absolute lie. He did drop some money into the 2008 campaign, again into left-leaning groups, but I don't believe he dropped anything into the 2012 campaign. And he hasn't put in nearly the kind of money into the U.S. elections as conservatives have.

But then again, you would prefer to believe everything you hear on Fox News, and from Drudge and World Nut Daily about old George, instead of looking into the truth.

It seems that Soros believes he was anointed by God. “I fancied myself as some kind of god …” he once wrote. “If truth be known, I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies with me from childhood, which I felt I had to control, otherwise they might get me in trouble.”

Edited February 6, 2013 by Asiantravel

[jamhar]

"Dozens of Countries Aided US Secret Detentions: Report

WASHINGTON, February 6 (RIA Novosti) – As many as 54 governments throughout the world assisted the United States in its secret detention and rendition operations in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, according to a new human rights report released Tuesday."

Good to hear!

[rbrooks]

Who exactly are "Open Society Justice Initiative"?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of capturing terrorists who murdered thousands of people?

Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes torture, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people in the Twin Towers and the airplanes suffered.

If other governments had the courage to act as the U.S. did, then this scourge of Islamic terrorism could be contained and reduced much more effectively. Thailand take note of what is happening in the southern provinces!

If you believe that the US Government "had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible" then why didn't they attack Saudi Arabia first instead of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Mainly because the people that attacked in 9/11 were not representing a country. If a country took responsibility for the attack then it would have had a different outcome. The attack on Iraq was obviously premeditated for taking the control of oil away from Saddam.

[F430murci]

Who exactly are "Open Society Justice Initiative"?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of capturing terrorists who murdered thousands of people?

Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes torture, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people in the Twin Towers and the airplanes suffered.

If other governments had the courage to act as the U.S. did, then this scourge of Islamic terrorism could be contained and reduced much more effectively. Thailand take note of what is happening in the southern provinces!

If you believe that the US Government "had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible" then why didn't they attack Saudi Arabia first instead of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Mainly because the people that attacked in 9/11 were not representing a country. If a country took responsibility for the attack then it would have had a different outcome. The attack on Iraq was obviously premeditated for taking the control of oil away from Saddam.

Shit, it wasn't even about oil. Been better if would have been about oil. It was just some bully big kid mentality of being for us or against us and a little revenge for hit attempt on daddy. I was all for first attack in 90s, but junior's little mission was a personal issue and an intended f-with the bull get the horns type of statement to the world that ultimately had big, big costs.

Edited February 6, 2013 by F430murci

[Gary A]

Some people are obviously demented. To actually believe the Iraq was attacked for the oil is way out of reason. The cost of that war exceeded the value of all the oil in Iraq. Be an American basher if you want but try to be somewhat logical.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed.

[Shantaram]

An interesting thread. It's about the countries that aided in the detention and rendition, but hey, let's not look at any of those countries. Better just stick to US bashing.

Good point! I found this titbit in the report which directly relates to Thailand's involvement in the whole sordid affair, and details the location of the CIA secret detention centre in Udon Thani:

From the report Globalizing Torture: CIA Secret Detention and Extraordinary Rendition.:

48. Thailand

Thailand hosted a secret CIA prison where detainees were tortured and also apprehended individuals subjected to secret detention and extraordinary rendition. It also allowed the use of its airspace and airports for CIA secret detention and extraordinary rendition operations. Thailand hosted a secret CIA prison outside Bangkok that was code-named “Cat’s Eye,” and located on a military base in the northeastern province of Udon Thani.At least three “high value detainees”—amzi Bin al-Shibh, Abu Zubaydah, and Abd al Rahim al Nashiri—were detained and interrogated there. (In a submission toa 2010 U.N. Joint Study on secret detention, the government of Thailand denied the existence of such a facility). Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded in Thailand 83 times, and al Nashiri was also waterboarded there. In November 2005, the CIA destroyed 92 videotapes recording the interrogations of these two detainees. Court records show that at least one flight, registered as N85VM and operated by Richmor Aviation (a company that operated CIA extraordinary rendition flights landed in Thailand some time between August 12 and 15, 2003 The timing of this flight coincided with the capture and possible transportation to secret detention of Riduan Isamuddin (Hambali), who was captured in Bangkok on August 11, 2003. Thai authorities also assisted in the August 14, 2003, capture of Isamuddin in Thailand.

Other individuals subjected to CIA secret detention and extraordinary rendition operationsin Thailand include Mohamad Farik bin Amin (Zubair), Amin Mohammad Abdallah al Bakri, Riduan Isamuddin (Hambali), Mohammed Nazir bin Lep, Saifullah Paracha, Abdullah al-Sadiq (Abdul Hakim Belhadj), and Fatima Bouchar. Mohamad Farik bin Amin (Zubair), a Malaysian national, was apprehended in Thailand on June

8, 2003, before ultimately being detained at Guantanamo Bay.

Amin Mohammad Abdallah al Bakri, a Yemeni national, was seized in Bangkok in 2002 by U.S.or Thai intelligence agents before being secretly detained by the CIA. Throughout 2003 his location was unknown. During 2003, Thai authorities confirmed to al-Bakri’s relatives that he had entered Thai territory, but denied knowledge of his location. Riduan Isamuddin (Hambali), an Indonesian citizen, was captured on August

14, 2003, in Thailand in a joint U.S.-Thai operation. Isamuddin told the ICRC that during his four to five day-long detention in Thailand, he was subjected to stress positions while blindfolded with a sack over his head, kept naked, and deprived of solid food.

Similarly, Mohammed Nazir bin Lep, a Malaysian national, was apprehended on August 11, 2003, in Bangkok, Thailand. Bin Lep alleged that he was held naked for three to four days while detained in Thailand and not provided any solid food until twelve days after his arrest.

He was also subsequently transferred to Guantanamo Bay. In 2004, Thai authorities detained Libyan nationals Abu Abdullah al-Sadiq (Abdul Hakim Belhadj) and his wife Fatima Bouchar as they were transiting through Bangkok airport. Al-Sadiq and his wife allege that they were

ill-treated by persons they believed to be Thai and U.S. authorities. They were ultimately extraordinarily rendered to Libya. There have been no known judicial cases or investigations in Thailand relating to its participation in CIA secret detention and extraordinary rendition operations.

http://www.opensocie...re-20120205.pdf

Edited February 6, 2013 by Scott
font

[Shantaram]

"Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible."

I agree.

Easy to agree when it is not you or someone you know that gets shafted and has their entire life ruined for no reason at all.

I am not a terrorist and don't know any.Terrorists ruin other people's lives which is good reason to stop them.

How about if your government is a terrorist State? How do you consider State Terrorism compared to small group terrorism?

[Shantaram]

Who exactly are "Open Society Justice Initiative"?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of capturing terrorists who murdered thousands of people?

Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes torture, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people in the Twin Towers and the airplanes suffered.

If other governments had the courage to act as the U.S. did, then this scourge of Islamic terrorism could be contained and reduced much more effectively. Thailand take note of what is happening in the southern provinces!

I've rephrased your ingenuous response from the other side so to speak:

Who exactly is the CIA?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of torturing brave resistance members who revenged the murder of hundreds of thousands of people by American backed regimes and invasions of countries in contravention of the Geneva convention?

Although I am not a Muslim, I believe the courageous freedom fighters had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible for North American genocide and wars, and any organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes 911, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people suffered in.....(if you need a history lesson in US imperialism, it can be found here):

http://www.huppi.com...IAtimeline.html

http://whatreallyhap...ventionism.html

Edited February 6, 2013 by Scott
fonr

[Ulysses G.]

How about if your government is a terrorist State?

It isn't. I am not Iranian.

[Scott]

I was listening to the English news on the radio this morning while driving. It seems Thailand is still denying it's involvement in this.

[Scott]

It's now running in the Thai news section of Thaivisa:

[Psych01]

They will do, as do the U.K. Hence there was only one incident, on public file (in the news), of this happening. The U.K government then stated that the military plane carrying the detainee(s), was asked to leave British soil and air space.

[wannascuba]

Who exactly are "Open Society Justice Initiative"?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of capturing terrorists who murdered thousands of people?

Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes torture, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people in the Twin Towers and the airplanes suffered.

If other governments had the courage to act as the U.S. did, then this scourge of Islamic terrorism could be contained and reduced much more effectively. Thailand take note of what is happening in the southern provinces!

I've rephrased your ingenuous response from the other side so to speak:

Who exactly is the CIA?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of torturing brave resistance members who revenged the murder of hundreds of thousands of people by American backed regimes and invasions of countries in contravention of the Geneva convention?

Although I am not a Muslim, I believe the courageous freedom fighters had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible for North American genocide and wars, and any organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes 911, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people suffered in.....(

if you need a history lesson in US imperialism, it can be found here

):

http://www.huppi.com...IAtimeline.html

http://whatreallyhap...ventionism.html

There have been many countries throughout history involved in "Imperliasm, Colonialism, among many other nefarious activities". With an atttidue like yours - we (the world) will be in perpetual war.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[Shantaram]

All States are founded on violence and terror or the threat of it.

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality." ― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

Edited February 7, 2013 by Rimmer
Flame

[Shantaram]

Who exactly are "Open Society Justice Initiative"?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of capturing terrorists who murdered thousands of people?

Although I am not a U.S. citizen, I believe the U.S. government had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible, and organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes torture, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people in the Twin Towers and the airplanes suffered.

If other governments had the courage to act as the U.S. did, then this scourge of Islamic terrorism could be contained and reduced much more effectively. Thailand take note of what is happening in the southern provinces!

I've rephrased your ingenuous response from the other side so to speak:

Who exactly is the CIA?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of torturing brave resistance members who revenged the murder of hundreds of thousands of people by American backed regimes and invasions of countries in contravention of the Geneva convention?

Although I am not a Muslim, I believe the courageous freedom fighters had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible for North American genocide and wars, and any organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes 911, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people suffered in.....(

if you need a history lesson in US imperialism, it can be found here

):

http://www.huppi.com...IAtimeline.html

http://whatreallyhap...ventionism.html

There have been many countries throughout history involved in "Imperliasm, Colonialism, among many other nefarious activities". With an atttidue like yours - we (the world) will be in perpetual war.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

The world is in a state of perpetual war, a third world war. It is an economic and propaganda war, waged by transnational corporations, global finacial institutions and national governments on the poor. This international war against the poor is real; but with enough courage and organization from the lower classes, it can be stopped. 911, the Occupy Movement, Anarchist actions, Worker's Strikes, Guerilla Movements acros India, Nepal, the Philippines are all symptoms of the disease of social injustice and inequality. The War on Terror will never be won until the War on Social Injustice is won.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Shantaram

[simple1]

All States are founded on violence and terror or the threat of it.

“To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be place under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality." ― Pierre-Joseph Proudhon

Never heard of this man so looked him up. The thinkers who he claimed were the main influences on his political philosophy contributed to Marxism, including Marx himself - His idealism didn't quite work out did it?

[wannascuba]

Shantaram,

I admire your idealism, although I believe your justifucation for the 911 attacks is extremely misguided. I doubt I will change your mind and I know you wont change mine. Regardless of your "passive" support for the so called freedom fighters, I wish you no ill will.

You say your are not a Muslim. Personally would not bother me if you were. But you may not want to divulge that info to your freedom fighters, they may not be as open minded about non belivers as I am.

At the end of the day, you have picked your side. I just hope your able to live with the consequences if your freedom fighters were to succeed at their goals.

[Jingthing]

I've rephrased your ingenuous response from the other side so to speak:

Who exactly is the CIA?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of torturing brave resistance members who revenged the murder of hundreds of thousands of people by American backed regimes and invasions of countries in contravention of the Geneva convention?

Although I am not a Muslim, I believe the courageous freedom fighters had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible for North American genocide and wars, and any organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes 911, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people suffered in.....(if you need a history lesson in US imperialism, it can be found here):

http://www.huppi.com...IAtimeline.html

http://whatreallyhap...ventionism.html

Freedom fighters? 911? Radical Islamic fundamentalist mass murderers? People totally intolerant of anyone who doesn't follow some twisted distortion of Islam? What an insult to the innocent victims. I think they are the OPPOSITE of freedom fighters. I don't call them cowards because they were willing to die for their cause, but I do call them terrorists and enemies of freedom. Edited February 7, 2013 by Jingthing

[BradinAsia]

And people wonder why the US govt is so hated.

They did also take innocent people with their renditions. Italy currently has warrants out for some US operatives who kidnapped a guy from the streets in Italy for rendition. It is ridiculous to say that those subject to rendition and torture were only terrorists. An Australian was tortured and has been paid compensation because it was a mistake.

Most of the prisoners in Guantanamo have never been charged with anything. So to say that they are terrorists is just a complete lie because they actually don't know. Just round em up and torture them to see who they actually have.

If all this was for the good of the people then why did the govt's complicit in this want it all kept secret? I remember it became public that the UK allowed a plane transporting one of those poor guys subject to rendition to use it's airspace. Of course the govt would have known but only when it became public knowledge and the uproar of it did the UK govt then pretend to throw a hissy fit.

I have no doubt my own oz govt was complicit as we just bend over and take it up the ass for the US. Every time they ask us for help we jump. Though I would hope after the lies of GWB and the fact that these things are now becoming public that they will be a bit more cautious next time.

I'm sure there are those that will simply not believe there was torture, even though GWB admitted he gave such orders. Who cares where the report comes from, comment on the report instead of the people who did it.

Does anyone actually believe this didn't go on?

This is one of the best posts I have ever seen on TV.

I admire anyone who has the insight to see reality in front of their face and the cajones to tell it like it is. Seems to be a rare quality.

[wannascuba]

I've rephrased your ingenuous response from the other side so to speak:

Who exactly is the CIA?

Who elected them, or are they self-chosen?

Why do they think they have the right to lecture and pontificate about the correct methods of torturing brave resistance members who revenged the murder of hundreds of thousands of people by American backed regimes and invasions of countries in contravention of the Geneva convention?

Although I am not a Muslim, I believe the courageous freedom fighters had the right and duty to destroy the people responsible for North American genocide and wars, and any organisation behind them, by any means possible. If that includes 911, then so what? It would not have been worse than what the people suffered in.....(if you need a history lesson in US imperialism, it can be found here):

http://www.huppi.com...IAtimeline.html

http://whatreallyhap...ventionism.html

Freedom fighters? 911? Radical Islamic fundamentalist mass murderers? People totally intolerant of anyone who doesn't follow some twisted distortion of Islam? What an insult to the innocent victims. I think they are the OPPOSITE of freedom fighters. I don't call them cowards because they were willing to die for their cause, but I do call them terrorists and enemies of freedom.

JT,

I was using "Shantaram's" description of them in his prevous posts.

I in no way see them as freedom fighters.

[Jingthing]

We can correctly criticize the overreaction of the USA and allies in response to 911. I certainly do. But to turn that justified criticism on it's head to justify SUPPORT of radical Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is a bridge WAY too far.