The Importance Of Preparing A Will In Thailand

[chiang mai]

Assuming you do not have an Amphur Will, the Probate Court will appoint and Executor, if you have not named one - you may wish to consider rewriting your Will to include a named executor. Also, I would have though most people would wish to include a condo in their will rather than take a risk by transferring title before their death, your reasons for not wishing to do so are how ever your own.

Finally, if your comment was directed towards me, which of my quotes would you like to see corrected?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If you're physically able, I'd suggest you and your beneficiary go to a local Amphur office and register your will there with him as your beneficiary. That will save a lot of expense and hassle later.

If you have just one beneficiary and nothing complicated in the way of Thai assets, it's an easy thing to do, and either costs nothing or has a very small fee. Best to bring along someone trustworthy who speaks Thai, if you and/or your beneficiary don't. That will help smooth the interaction with the Amphur office staff, who probably won't speak English.

If you have Thai bank account(s) as your assets, you can and should specifically list the bank name and bank account number(s) in the Amphur will. That also will make it easier for your beneficiary when that time comes. After your passing, your beneficiary would take the Thai death certificate and retrieve the Amphur will from the Amphur Office, then take those documents to the bank(s) holding your accounts.

There are threads here re the details and process for registering Amphur wills. The exact details, like everything else in Thailand, are likely to vary some from Amphur to Amphur. The Amphur will is a simple form and it doesn't need to be drafted by lawyers or even have lawyers involved. But it is best to present a will at the amphur that is a dual Thai and English language version.

Lastly, and you might want to double check about this, I believe you can name someone as both the executor and beneficiary of your Thai will. Since you seem to be talking about just one person, having him named and executor and beneficiary probably will make it easier on him down the road.

-- PS - Chiang Mai was correct above about non-Amphur wills needing to go thru Probate Court here, and that requiring the involvement of a Thai attorney. If you want to make things easier on your beneficiary, the Probate Court route is one best avoided. It's only going to take longer and cost more money out of your estate before your beneficiary receives the proceeds.

-- PPS - The amphur offices I've visited on this subject actually have a standard one page form for Amphur wills that specifically lists spaces for entering I think up to 3 bank account listings. If you go the Amphur will route, you can use their form (which is in Thai), or you can present to them your own will that's been drafted by whomever. But either way, the Amphur registers and records your will, and keeps it there awaiting the person's death. You should also give a copy of your will to your beneficiary/executor, if possible.

[chiang mai]

Indeed the beneficiary can also be Executor.

[ford8]

Thanks to all, it will not be practical for the beneficiary to go to the Amphur.

As I know, my will, will be sealed, i.e. not necessary for people at the Amphur to read it, two Thai witnesses are needed as witnesses to the registering process

and a Translation of my Passprt is needed

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Your beneficiary doesn't have to be physically present when you register a will at the Amphur. But, the maker of the will does, of course.

There are two types of processes for Amphur wills:

1 is where the will is read aloud and people there know what the will says.

2 is a so-called private will, where the contents of the will remain private, and the will document is simply registered and recorded by the Amphur staff in front of the will maker and witnesses. For farangs, the private will approach is supposedly the more commonly used one.

Lastly, you might want to read thru this linked thread on Amphur wills, and in particular the single post I'm linking to of mine that includes copies of the blank amphur will forms I received from my local Amphur.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/599413-amphur-will/page-4#entry6693191

[JimGant]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/599413-amphur-will/

John, that referenced thread actually has more pertinent info than this one. But, on this thread, it was nice to see Chiangmai finally answer the question about there being no requirement for Amphur Wills to go thru probate (on the ref thread, he was insistent there was such a requirement):

That is correct, Amphur wills do not need to go through Probate Court..... I have no web based references for these things, they are questions I asked my lawyer when I had my Thai Will prepared.

But, the mechanics of a self-probating Amphur Will aren't completely clear to me, particularly the "private" Will:

2 is a so-called private will, where the contents of the will remain private, and the will document is simply registered and recorded by the Amphur staff in front of the will maker and witnesses. For farangs, the private will approach is supposedly the more commonly used one.

If you bring your Will to the Amphur, and they just seal it up in an envelope, what good will that do you when the testator dies? Yes, the envelope has witness signatures, and stamps, and is sealed -- but once unsealed, the private Will is as void of Amphur stamps and signatures as when you brought it in. No self-respecting bank manager or land office clerk would treat such a Will as official. Of course, you could have it unsealed in front of a probate judge, who would then apply all the official stamps and notations. But avoiding the probate judge is a key reason for having an Amphur Will.

But, maybe there is some official stamping done on the Will, before it is sealed. This is the English translation of the pertinent code:

Section 1660. A will may be made by a secret document, that is to say:

(1) the testator must sign his name on the document;
(2) he must close up the documents and sign his name on the document;
(3) he must produce the closed document before the Kromakarn Amphoe and at least two other persons as witnesses and declare to all of them that it contains his testamentary dispositions; and if the testator has not written with his own hand the whole text of the document he must state the name and domicile of the writer;
(4) after the Kromakarn Amphoe has noted down upon the cover of the document the declaration of the testator and the date of the production and has affixed his seal thereupon, the Kromakarn Amphoe, the testator and the witness must sign their names thereon.

What is "the cover of the document?" The reverse of the "closed up" document (Will)? If that's the case, then, yes, your Will will have the signatures and stamps to make it official.

Can anyone who has done this provide clarification?

What we need is more dead testators so we can see the practical, not theoretical, aspects of Thai probate.

Another good Amphur Will thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/447336-will-advice/

[chiang mai]

Untrue that he was insistent on that requirement, in posts 25 and 27 he used words such as "pretty certain" and "strongly recommend you check". And in post 53 he accepted your explanation fully, once it had been set out fully.

[JimGant]

chiang mai, although it's not really necessary to belabor the point, we really were interested in hearing your lawyer's answers -- since we hadn't employed any lawyers ourselves.

From post 67:

Interesting that my Thai Will, written by a Thai law firm, states: "I appoint my partner xxx Thai ID number yyyy to be the executor of all my assets in Thailand. As my executor she will apply to the court to be appointed as the administrator of my assets and to distribute my assets according to my Will under Thai law" (partially paraphrased in the interests of brevity). The Will seems to dictate or at least describe the path the executor will take and no mention is made of possibly using the Amphur as an option to short circuit things.

Hmmm. Your lawyer had actually written into your Will that your executor 'will apply to the court.' Your interpretation, at least from your above quote, is that the Amphur can't be used in lieu of the probate court. Thus, the followups in posts 68 and 69 -- November 2012

CM, why not ask your lawyer if probate can be avoided via the Amphur? The answer would be very interesting.

I will ask, I'm due to see her next week so stay tuned.

Three months later:

Chiangmai, what was her answer?

No answer.

Four months after that......

Seems there never was an answer posted here from Chiang Mai on his intended consultation with his Thai wills lawyer about the Amphur approach???

Anyway, your conversation with your lawyer re probate vs. amphur would still be of interest.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

FWIW, recently, I also had a Thai attorney at a reputable international law firm in BKK tell me that if a farang and Thai couple were married here, they could NOT get divorced at the Amphur. The only way, he said, for a mixed couple to get divorced in BKK was via the courts. The Thai attorney claimed the Amphurs would not process a mixed Thai-farang divorce.

Needless to say, Thai attorney legal guidance even from supposedly reputable sources can be suspect, at best.

[chiang mai]

chiang mai, although it's not really necessary to belabor the point, we really were interested in hearing your lawyer's answers -- since we hadn't employed any lawyers ourselves.

From post 67:

the court to be appointed as the administrator of my assets and to distribute my assets according to my Will under Thai law" (partially paraphrased in the interests of brevity). The Will seems to dictate or at least describe the path the executor will take and no mention is made of possibly using the Amphur as an option to short circuit things.

Hmmm. Your lawyer had actually written into your Will that your executor 'will apply to the court.' Your interpretation, at least from your above quote, is that the Amphur can't be used in lieu of the probate court. Thus, the followups in posts 68 and 69 -- November 2012

CM, why not ask your lawyer if probate can be avoided via the Amphur? The answer would be very interesting.

I will ask, I'm due to see her next week so stay tuned.

Three months later:

Chiangmai, what was her answer?

No answer.

Four months after that......

Seems there never was an answer posted here from Chiang Mai on his intended consultation with his Thai wills lawyer about the Amphur approach???

Anyway, your conversation with your lawyer re probate vs. amphur would still be of interest.

My apologies that I did not see nor respond to your requests above, the fact is I never noticed them and was not simply ignoring you.

I did not see Sumalee of 29 Tanin as planned at that time because she became very unwell and was hospitalized for quite some time, I did see her subsequently on a trivial and unrelated matter but by that time I had forgotten about the discussion on wills.

And now if we are to dissect what I said and when, let's put it in context shall we. The quotes that you provided above relate to a discussion over fifteen months ago and I think it's fair to say that was one of a couple of similar threads that represented discovery on this subject. My input to that debate was based solely on what I had gleaned from Kuhn Sumalee and pertained to a lawyer written will solely. When you provided details of Amphur wills in their entirety, I accepted that fully and without question from that point in time, as previously stated.

Moving on to today, if you ask me whether a simple Amphur will requires probate, my answer is that it doesn't. But if you ask me whether a sealed and potentially complex Amphur will requires no form of probate, I'll be suprised if that's the case.

I trust that clarifies any misunderstanding or ambiguity as to my thoughts on this subject.

[Jip99]

apples aint apples

same as wine is not wine

and Wills aint Wills

Wrong

Estates are estates, and a simple estate (particularly where Thai assets are concerned) need onlythe simplest of Wills (if at all).

Anything complex requires more than that.

[BlackJack]

apples aint apples

same as wine is not wine

and Wills aint Wills

Wrong

Estates are estates, and a simple estate (particularly where Thai assets are concerned) need onlythe simplest of Wills (if at all).

Anything complex requires more than that.

I work in a Law office

Do you?

[JimGant]

Moving on to today, if you ask me whether a simple Amphur will requires probate, my answer is that it doesn't. But if you ask me whether a sealed and potentially complex Amphur will requires no form of probate, I'll be suprised if that's the case.

Perhaps (no, most likely) it will be up to the party receiving the Will and death certificate as to whether the source (court or amphur), and the accompanying stamps, suffice to carry out the testator's instructions.

Do you know if your lawyer has ever considered going to the amphur upon your death, rather than the probate court -- perhaps in the interest of timeliness?

I guess my greatest concern is the land office. Probably makes sense to chat with them soonest, to see what officialdom they require for me to deed the wife's land over to our niece.

[Jip99]

apples aint apples

same as wine is not wine

and Wills aint Wills

Wrong

Estates are estates, and a simple estate (particularly where Thai assets are concerned) need onlythe simplest of Wills (if at all).

Anything complex requires more than that.

I work in a Law office

Do you?

No.

But I can now see where you acquired your myopia.

[ford8]

Any Beneficiaries out there ?

To put it very very simply..I want my beneficiary, who is also named as executor, to get my money from my Bangkok Bank Account, specified in the will, (officially translated and signed sealed and delivered at the Amphur).Without a lawyer.

Has anyone been able to do this please ?

[Mario2008]

I believe the executor of your will cannot be one of the beneficiaries (might be a conflict of interest), but better ask a lawyer.

A lawyer is not required for a will.

[Jip99]

I believe the executor of your will cannot be one of the beneficiaries (might be a conflict of interest), but better ask a lawyer.

A lawyer is not required for a will.

An executor CAN be a beneficiary - this is most common where a wife is named as executor (sole or joint) and is also the main/sole beneficiary.

A witness cannot be a beneficiary.

I am not a lawyer - but I totally agree a lawyer is NOT required for the majority of Wills.

Blackjack, who is also not a lawyer, will no doubt contradict this as he 'works' in a lawyers office.

[Jip99]

apples aint apples

same as wine is not wine

and Wills aint Wills

Wrong

Estates are estates, and a simple estate (particularly where Thai assets are concerned) need onlythe simplest of Wills (if at all).

Anything complex requires more than that.

I work in a Law office

Do you?

Before you attempt to turn this into a "my credentials are bigger than yours" thread, you may wish to take a look at your little law firm's website and correct all the links that don't work!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I believe the executor of your will cannot be one of the beneficiaries (might be a conflict of interest), but better ask a lawyer.

A lawyer is not required for a will.

An executor CAN be a beneficiary - this is most common where a wife is named as executor (sole or joint) and is also the main/sole beneficiary.

A witness cannot be a beneficiary.

From my understanding, Jip is correct on both counts. An executor can also be a beneficiary, as in the example of a surviving spouse.

But a witness to the will recording cannot be a beneficiary.

That's what we were told when we checked at our local Amphur office with the staff handling wills there.

[ford8]

I believe the executor of your will cannot be one of the beneficiaries (might be a conflict of interest), but better ask a lawyer.

A lawyer is not required for a will.

TVM, but believe is contrary to some who say positively the opposite in earlier posts.and other sources. As I have no relatives I can't hink were is any conflict might arise.

As for asking a lawyer here, I'm sorry I would not believe a word they said unless they proved it to me, by showing me the references/precedents.

.

So if any lawyer reading this wishes to post/ PM me with the appropriate Thailand CCC references, he/she will do a service to his profession and possibly get some business.

In the course of my research into this matter, I have emailed a number of recommended law firms, their answers are as equally

conflicting as many of the posts, with the constant that I should consult them..but they would say that wouldn't they.?

The most generous interpretation i can place on this confusion, is that, the law being the law here, it is interpreted to fit the case.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Any Beneficiaries out there ?

To put it very very simply..I want my beneficiary, who is also named as executor, to get my money from my Bangkok Bank Account, specified in the will, (officially translated and signed sealed and delivered at the Amphur).Without a lawyer.

Has anyone been able to do this please ?

If you've had the will properly recorded at the Amphur, and designated your beneficiary-executor in the will to receive the proceeds of your BKK Bank account, that should be enough. I'm assuming you've listed the BKK Bank account and number of the account in the will.

In the event of your death, your executor would obtain your death certificate from the Thai authorities, and then go to the Amphur office to retrieve your will. Then, with your will, death certificate and bank passbook in hand, he ought to be able to resolve things with the BKK Bank branch holding your account.

The only other thing I can suggest is, for one or both of you, if possible, to visit the bank branch in question ahead of time (now) and ask to speak with the branch manager there. Explain the situation and what you've done and your wishes. And ask the manager if the bank's procedures will require anything else? This being Thailand, you never quite know what they're going to say.

PS - Never having died here, I'm not sure how Thai authorities operate in terms of handing over death certificates to non-family members and non-spouses. Your beneficiary might need to retrieve the copy of the will first showing that he's the executor, and then use that to obtain the death certificate for a non-family member. Or, just having your own copy of the will showing him as the executor might be enough to get the death certificate prior to going to the Amphur to retrieve the official copy.

I never have quite gotten to the point of hashing out that detail with my local Amphur wills person. But I will be, because those are important details to know, and be able to properly advice/instruct your executor/beneficiary.

The problem here in Thailand is most of us are will-makers -- not beneficiaries of others. So we're all on the wrong end of the stick.

[ford8]

Hi

TallGuyJohninBKK

Hi Thanks so much for your excellent and comprehensive answer to my plea for accurate info.

I have PM'd you with more effusive thanks and a few asides

TVM

[chiang mai]

I believe the executor of your will cannot be one of the beneficiaries (might be a conflict of interest), but better ask a lawyer.

A lawyer is not required for a will.

Untrue, a beneficiary can definitely be the executor and vica versa.

[chiang mai]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/599413-amphur-will/

John, that referenced thread actually has more pertinent info than this one. But, on this thread, it was nice to see Chiangmai finally answer the question about there being no requirement for Amphur Wills to go thru probate (on the ref thread, he was insistent there was such a requirement):

That is correct, Amphur wills do not need to go through Probate Court..... I have no web based references for these things, they are questions I asked my lawyer when I had my Thai Will prepared.

But, the mechanics of a self-probating Amphur Will aren't completely clear to me, particularly the "private" Will:

2 is a so-called private will, where the contents of the will remain private, and the will document is simply registered and recorded by the Amphur staff in front of the will maker and witnesses. For farangs, the private will approach is supposedly the more commonly used one.

If you bring your Will to the Amphur, and they just seal it up in an envelope, what good will that do you when the testator dies? Yes, the envelope has witness signatures, and stamps, and is sealed -- but once unsealed, the private Will is as void of Amphur stamps and signatures as when you brought it in. No self-respecting bank manager or land office clerk would treat such a Will as official. Of course, you could have it unsealed in front of a probate judge, who would then apply all the official stamps and notations. But avoiding the probate judge is a key reason for having an Amphur Will.

But, maybe there is some official stamping done on the Will, before it is sealed. This is the English translation of the pertinent code:

Section 1660. A will may be made by a secret document, that is to say:

(1) the testator must sign his name on the document;

(2) he must close up the documents and sign his name on the document;

(3) he must produce the closed document before the Kromakarn Amphoe and at least two other persons as witnesses and declare to all of them that it contains his testamentary dispositions; and if the testator has not written with his own hand the whole text of the document he must state the name and domicile of the writer;

(4) after the Kromakarn Amphoe has noted down upon the cover of the document the declaration of the testator and the date of the production and has affixed his seal thereupon, the Kromakarn Amphoe, the testator and the witness must sign their names thereon.

What is "the cover of the document?" The reverse of the "closed up" document (Will)? If that's the case, then, yes, your Will will have the signatures and stamps to make it official.

Can anyone who has done this provide clarification?

What we need is more dead testators so we can see the practical, not theoretical, aspects of Thai probate.

Another good Amphur Will thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/447336-will-advice/

From what's been written it seems as though the sealing of a will at the Amphur involves a signature matching process, the will writer signs the will and then seals it and his/her signature is then witnessed on the outside of the envelope or the cover and is duly stamped. It might just be therefore that it is possible for a beneficiary to request bank accounts be handed over on the basis of such a document although I speculate here.

[simple1]

If you've had the will properly recorded at the Amphur, and designated your beneficiary-executor in the will to receive the proceeds of your BKK Bank account, that should be enough. I'm assuming you've listed the BKK Bank account and number of the account in the will.

In the event of your death, your executor would obtain your death certificate from the Thai authorities, and then go to the Amphur office to retrieve your will. Then, with your will, death certificate and bank passbook in hand, he ought to be able to resolve things with the BKK Bank branch holding your account.

The only other thing I can suggest is, for one or both of you, if possible, to visit the bank branch in question ahead of time (now) and ask to speak with the branch manager there. Explain the situation and what you've done and your wishes. And ask the manager if the bank's procedures will require anything else? This being Thailand, you never quite know what they're going to say.

PS - Never having died here, I'm not sure how Thai authorities operate in terms of handing over death certificates to non-family members and non-spouses. Your beneficiary might need to retrieve the copy of the will first showing that he's the executor, and then use that to obtain the death certificate for a non-family member. Or, just having your own copy of the will showing him as the executor might be enough to get the death certificate prior to going to the Amphur to retrieve the official copy.

I never have quite gotten to the point of hashing out that detail with my local Amphur wills person. But I will be, because those are important details to know, and be able to properly advice/instruct your executor/beneficiary.

The problem here in Thailand is most of us are will-makers -- not beneficiaries of others. So we're all on the wrong end of the stick.

Once the Will registration process has been completed at the Amphur you are provided an official receipt. This receipt, in conjuction with the death certificate, must be presented to obtain the original Will by the executor. We were provided two receipts, one for my Will and the other for wifes' Will

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So then we're left with the question...

What is required for someone to obtain a copy of another person's death certificate, let's say, as executor of their estate, but someone who is not a spouse or blood relative?

[simple1]

So then we're left with the question...

What is required for someone to obtain a copy of another person's death certificate, let's say, as executor of their estate, but someone who is not a spouse or blood relative?

Good question. Don't know the Thai bureaucratic process, but as an assumptive respose the executor of the Will to be provided with a notorised copy of the Will to present to the Amphur to obtain the death certificate. In our Wills captured our official ID i.e. my passport number & wifes' ID card number; need to update Wills as & when new passport issued etc

[ford8]

Catch 22 ? You need the death certificate to get the will and you need the will to get th death cerificate.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well, I don't know for certain, but I'd imagine blood relations and/or a surviving spouse would be able to obtain a Thai death certificate for their family member, regardless of a will being involved.

Ford is talking about a different situation where the executor/beneficiary needing to obtain a copy of the death certificate and will is not a surviving spouse or blood relation. That's where things perhaps get more murky.

Hopefully someone here has trod that road and can provide the answer. Otherwise, it's something I'll be asking the next time I get the opportunity.

[chiang mai]

I also thought fleetingly of the Catch-22 scenario but quickly dismissed it as too silly and hugely improbable. I therefore concluded that the likely answer rests in the cover sheet of the sealed will which I would guess also contains the executor's name etc, that being the only person able to retrieve the will, without involving a court/probate process. Presumably there's some sort of back and forth process between the Amphur and the hospitals that allows the Executor to retrieve the mortal remains on the basis of the will coversheet?