Usefruct Done!

[jamescollister]

An usufruct is perfectly legal even though you have stated that the land was not bought with your partner's money. You gave the money to her as a gift. My information is that an usufruct survives a divorce unless you relinquish it. The Land Office won't allow anything that's not legal.

If you think that an usufruct is for farm land, plant a few fruit trees

I have had an usufruct contract on the same property twice. The fist time, it was drafted by a lawyer. when I divorced, I relinquished the usufruct and the property was transferred to a Thai friend. When I remarried, he passed it to my new wife who signed a new usufruct with me. I drafted that myself, with amendments to the standard form, and asked a lawyer to check and translate it for me.

The alternative is a lease but that involves the bureaucracy of an annual tax, I believe.

So you are saying that you own land in Thailand, and your ex wife was happy to give her land to your friend. No payment, charnot residential land with house 3 may be 5 mill Baht and she just gave it away, you have to be pulling my plonker. Jim

I 'kept' the land and house as part of the divorce settlement. She got cash, the Vigo and some furniture. I think I got a good deal.

Lucky man and not very bright ex. I take it that it was an uncontested divorce. Jim

[jamescollister]

An usufruct is perfectly legal even though you have stated that the land was not bought with your partner's money. You gave the money to her as a gift. My information is that an usufruct survives a divorce unless you relinquish it. The Land Office won't allow anything that's not legal.

If you think that an usufruct is for farm land, plant a few fruit trees

I have had an usufruct contract on the same property twice. The fist time, it was drafted by a lawyer. when I divorced, I relinquished the usufruct and the property was transferred to a Thai friend. When I remarried, he passed it to my new wife who signed a new usufruct with me. I drafted that myself, with amendments to the standard form, and asked a lawyer to check and translate it for me.

The alternative is a lease but that involves the bureaucracy of an annual tax, I believe.

With all these things you have to take the law in it entirity not just one piece.

Land code clearly says you broke the law.

Section 96: 'When it appears that any person (including a juristic person) has acquired land as the owner in place of an alien or juristic person under the provisions of Section 97 and 98, the Director-General shall have the authority to dispose of such land and the provisions of Section 94 shall apply mutatis mutandis'.

Section 113: 'Any person who acquires land as an agent of an alien or juristic person under the provisions of Section 97 or 98 shall be punished with a fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht or an imprisonment not exceeding two years, or both'.

[Khun Jean]

It clearly says he did not broke the law.

Which part of the usufruct do you not understand.

It is a CONTRACT! One party pays other party gives something in return.

It is simple as that!

It is a whole different story when a company is setup and lying about who put up the 51% Thai part. Clearly illegal!

With a usufruct it is one person, no nominees or proxies at all!

[swissie]

Farangs have a tendency to think, that when something is drawn up by a "Reputable-Thai-Lawyer" , they got themselves covered. = Far from reality.

Against a fee, they will draw-up any legal-document , that will satisfy the urge of the farang to "hedge" and "protect" his investement. = In short: To put the farangs mind at ease.

If things turn sour, the farang may well discover, that the "Legal-Documents", that were "purchased" for good money, have the market-value of a roll of toilet-paper.

Let's put it to a test: If any farang can point out to me, that the legal firm that has set up any sort of contract on behalf of a farangs interest (in form of a guarantee, that if said contract doesen't hold water, the same legal firm will re-imburse the farang for losses incurred), then by all means, let me know the name and adress of this firm!

Needless to say, I would be their next customer.

Other than that, I would suggest, that the advice that Jim has given here, should be more appreciated than the advice that the farang receives from his "reputable lawyer". Jim does his own research and has no financial advantage by posting his advice here as far as I know. As opposed to any "reputable lawyer".

Cheers.

[jamescollister]

It clearly says he did not broke the law.

Which part of the usufruct do you not understand.

It is a CONTRACT! One party pays other party gives something in return.

It is simple as that!

It is a whole different story when a company is setup and lying about who put up the 51% Thai part. Clearly illegal!

With a usufruct it is one person, no nominees or proxies at all!

It is illegal for a Thai national to buy land with an aliens money so that the alien can use it.

it's clear as glass, use a Thai to buy land for you to use and you commit a crime and so does the Thai. Usufruct 30 year lease or any other scheme you can dream up Section 96 of the land code. No maybe or that isn't covered black and white in the land code.

Read the land code, not the civil code, Jim

[mark131v]

Jim, I think you are wrong, the local goverment officials who are responsible for implementation of the law also think you are wrong.....

Swissie I would not trust any lawyer as far as I could spit beauty is with a usufruct you do not need a lawyer or bribes or anything else other than a bit of time, research and 75 baht, why dont you do like Jim and do your own research then you can speak from a position of knowledge you might then realise why the vast majority of people do not agree with Jim's opinion

[Morden]

An usufruct is perfectly legal even though you have stated that the land was not bought with your partner's money. You gave the money to her as a gift. My information is that an usufruct survives a divorce unless you relinquish it. The Land Office won't allow anything that's not legal.

If you think that an usufruct is for farm land, plant a few fruit trees

I have had an usufruct contract on the same property twice. The fist time, it was drafted by a lawyer. when I divorced, I relinquished the usufruct and the property was transferred to a Thai friend. When I remarried, he passed it to my new wife who signed a new usufruct with me. I drafted that myself, with amendments to the standard form, and asked a lawyer to check and translate it for me.

The alternative is a lease but that involves the bureaucracy of an annual tax, I believe.

So you are saying that you own land in Thailand, and your ex wife was happy to give her land to your friend. No payment, charnot residential land with house 3 may be 5 mill Baht and she just gave it away, you have to be pulling my plonker. Jim

I 'kept' the land and house as part of the divorce settlement. She got cash, the Vigo and some furniture. I think I got a good deal.

Lucky man and not very bright ex. I take it that it was an uncontested divorce. Jim

It took a year to bring her to agree to a settlement. The turning point was when she ran out of the money she had creamed off me for the building works. Friends told me that I should walk a way and be miserable in a rented bungalow same as them but wanted my retirement home and got it. The new wife is a gem. The cost I incurred was a good investment as it turned out.

[jamescollister]

All can say what you want, Land code says you can not give money to a Thai National and he/she allows an alien to use control the land.

You put your Thai wife in a position where she can face criminal charges, as well as yourself.

As to usefructs, they give you a right to work the land, you as a farang have no such right. No one has posted where housing comes into a usufruct. Jim

[jamescollister]

Jim, I think you are wrong, the local goverment officials who are responsible for implementation of the law also think you are wrong.....

Swissie I would not trust any lawyer as far as I could spit beauty is with a usufruct you do not need a lawyer or bribes or anything else other than a bit of time, research and 75 baht, why dont you do like Jim and do your own research then you can speak from a position of knowledge you might then realise why the vast majority of people do not agree with Jim's opinion

Laws I am qouting have nothing to do with local Government, they are acts of parliament, National Government. jim

[mark131v]

Jim, I dont know whether you are bitter and twisted or just drunk or you have too much time on your hands

I applied for a usefruct, initially someone in the land office tried to rip me off...I walked away...I went back with more paperwork and and the usefruct was granted

Net result: official govenment recognition of my rights as the husband of a Thai to live in our house till I fall off the perch

I am not trying to do anything illegal or underhand or trying to circumvent any law whether local or national and the authorities seem to agrree with this......bizzare!!!

[Khun Jean]

There is nothing that forbids you to give money to a Thai, that he/she buys land for it and in return gives you the use of the land in form of a lease or a usufruct.

You are really mixing things up. You can not use it in a company setting because that has an unlimited time consequence, in that case it becomes with preference shares foreign owned and managed for ever!. This is illegal.

If the 51% of Thai did can not proof that they paid that money for their shares out of there own pocket then it is an illegal construction.

Again when a private person gives money to a Thai and gets something in return is the basis for all commerce. It is a contract with a fixed time limit. So no unlimited, timeless control is had by the foreigner. It all reverts back to the Thai. And that is the reason why it is legal.

[Morden]

There is nothing that forbids you to give money to a Thai, that he/she buys land for it and in return gives you the use of the land in form of a lease or a usufruct.

You are really mixing things up. You can not use it in a company setting because that has an unlimited time consequence, in that case it becomes with preference shares foreign owned and managed for ever!. This is illegal.

If the 51% of Thai did can not proof that they paid that money for their shares out of there own pocket then it is an illegal construction.

Again when a private person gives money to a Thai and gets something in return is the basis for all commerce. It is a contract with a fixed time limit. So no unlimited, timeless control is had by the foreigner. It all reverts back to the Thai. And that is the reason why it is legal.

Absolutely correct in my experience.

When your wife visits the local Land Office to transfer land to her ownership, the foreigner husband signs a document to confirm that it isn't his money. If he gave the money as a gift to his wife, then he can sign that document. My wife's particular plot on which stands our house is known at the Land Office to be our residence. That was not a bar to the LO accepting and registering the usufruct.

What the law might say and what the local government offices decide to do are not necessarily the same things.

The company dodge, so often pushed at buyers with foreigner husbands by developers, is illegal and the government has warned several times during the last few years that shareholders of such companies will be in trouble if caught.

[Bpuumike]

All can say what you want, Land code says you can not give money to a Thai National and he/she allows an alien to use control the land.

You put your Thai wife in a position where she can face criminal charges, as well as yourself.

As to usefructs, they give you a right to work the land, you as a farang have no such right. No one has posted where housing comes into a usufruct. Jim

Takes me back to my original question which is a Suprficie advisable in parallel with a Usufruct?

[fire and ice]

Before anyone gets on and tells me that it is no good if you are married as it can be cancelled on divorce I already know this and if it ever does happen that we divorce that is fair enough as I would be entitled to 50% of everything anyhow as I believe is written in Thai law, for us the main reason is if, God forbid, anything happens to the wife and she dies before me I will not have to rely on luck to keep me and my daughter in our home

Although it sounds like you have it sorted out, I'm curious if your daughter is a Thai citizen and could inherit the land anyway (assuming you were happy with that).

Edited February 17, 2013 by fire and ice

[mark131v]

Before anyone gets on and tells me that it is no good if you are married as it can be cancelled on divorce I already know this and if it ever does happen that we divorce that is fair enough as I would be entitled to 50% of everything anyhow as I believe is written in Thai law, for us the main reason is if, God forbid, anything happens to the wife and she dies before me I will not have to rely on luck to keep me and my daughter in our home

Although it sounds like you have it sorted out, I'm curious if your daughter is a Thai citizen and could inherit the land anyway (assuming you were happy with that).

My daughter has British and Thai citzenship and will inherit it anyway further down the line but I want everything as simple as I can get it plus now it is done it is one less thing to worry about....

[jamescollister]

Jim, I dont know whether you are bitter and twisted or just drunk or you have too much time on your hands

I applied for a usefruct, initially someone in the land office tried to rip me off...I walked away...I went back with more paperwork and and the usefruct was granted

Net result: official govenment recognition of my rights as the husband of a Thai to live in our house till I fall off the perch

I am not trying to do anything illegal or underhand or trying to circumvent any law whether local or national and the authorities seem to agrree with this......bizzare!!!

Not bitter or twisted, may be drunk at times, but no one has replied with any facts. Usufruct gives you the right to work the land, which parts apply to foreigners and which parts don't. Please cite the sections that allow home ownership or the right to work, or where the land code allows you to give money to a Thai national to buy land on an aliens behalf.

I live here and make my living here, legally, don't break the laws [much, water coconuts ] land office is a registry not a law enforcement agency. What you register is not legal and may come back to bit you one day. You may be older and die before then, but you can not control the use of land. It's in the law and constitution and I would be happy if anyone can post some real facts, not that it says this or that in one place. Civil code covers citizens not guests. Jim

[Khun Jean]

Jim the FACT is that it is also to USE and ENJOY an immovable property.

Enjoy can be using it to lie in the sun. No work permit needed for that.

Already pointed out many times, but you ignore it.

And again when you PAY a Thai it is to USE and/or ENJOY the land. What should the Thai do else, give it for free?

This is becoming silly.

The sections you know perfectly well!

So instead of feeding everyone a wrong interpretation, just point to the relevant sections and let people read it and interpret it themselves. Everyone can make their own conclusions then.

If law is only for citizens, you as a guest try to rob a bank and see what happens.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Khun Jean

[jamescollister]

Jim the FACT is that it is also to USE and ENJOY an immovable property.

Enjoy can be using it to lie in the sun. No work permit needed for that.

Already pointed out many times, but you ignore it.

And again when you PAY a Thai it is to USE and/or ENJOY the land. What should the Thai do else, give it for free?

This is becoming silly.

The sections you know perfectly well!

So instead of feeding everyone a wrong interpretation, just point to the relevant sections and let people read it and interpret it themselves. Everyone can make their own conclusions then.

If law is only for citizens, you as a guest try to rob a bank and see what happens.

Come on now criminal law and civil law are 2 different things. Commit a crime you go to jail then get deported. Sign a false declaration you commit a crime, give money to a Thai national to buy land for an aliens use, you can be arrested, if not deported, they may not allow you to stay in the country. No where does it say they have to re new a visa or extension of stay.

When you play games with the system, you put yourself at risk, the system can and will not lose, same any where in the world.

Think, as these laws come from the French civil code, If a Thai national rocked up in France, got a usufruct on some land. Would he be able to live and work the land as a guest in the country, think not.

Thailand is slow, but it will catch up fast, I've seen the changes in the 10 or so years I lived here. Be legal and be safe, or die before they come a knocking.

Best of luck with what you are doing and hope it all works out over time. Jim

[oracle]

I think jim is a practical man, a farmer with common sense. I also think you should not rely on what is registered by the land office, especially when you have to ask them twice or pay large amount of tea money. It may not be illegal for them to register something but it may well be void or voidable, but not illegal, and quoted from the land code section 74, if a correct translation 'when it appears to the competent authority that the legal act to be recorded by the parties is void, he shall not be obliged to record it. If the legal act to be recorded by the parties appears voidable the competent authority shall record it when the party who may be damaged thereby insists'

My experience, usufruct is not an universal right that is the same in every civil law country, it developed differently in different parts of the word, granting different rights, usufruct in thailand has nothing to do with home ownership, and I think when you go to the land office with a Thai thai farmer as a foreign farmer and say register a usufruct then it would be considered illegal to register it. Like the guy who wanted to register a lease over a commercial property recently and was refused the lease because he had no wp, or leasing farm land and renting it out to local farmers is considered operating a business as a foreigner.

[Khun Jean]

A usufruct is not only for farm land. It is for immovable property!

I understand the reasoning when it is farmland or a mine or a quarry or a forest, and i agree with what has been said about that.

But why simply ignoring what is stated. "Immovable property!".

That is what is used in the law itself.

So what is your opinion about having a usufruct on a house and land that is build on a piece of land that is zoned as residential and has a chanot, complete with public road access, electricity and water.

[jamescollister]

A usufruct is not only for farm land. It is for immovable property!

I understand the reasoning when it is farmland or a mine or a quarry or a forest, and i agree with what has been said about that.

But why simply ignoring what is stated. "Immovable property!".

That is what is used in the law itself.

So what is your opinion about having a usufruct on a house and land that is build on a piece of land that is zoned as residential and has a chanot, complete with public road access, electricity and water.

Jean, no matter what I say it will make no difference, but will have another go.

Immovable property in the case of usufructs is the land and things of the land, dirt, soil, rocks trees and plants etc. Usufructs are about mining, quarry, farming, if they were legal, you have the right to do these things. There are not bits saying a foreigner has limited rights, you have a usufruct or you don't.

If you put a building up it is for the business part, sheds etc, if a house it would be an office from where you run the business and anything you do is work.

Rights of habitation cover housing and living, usufructs are about making money, never mind the other laws you breach setting it up. You have conspired with other persons to circumvent Thai land laws.

They may never get round to bothering to enforce them, but I know people who have had laws enforced against them for other things because someone wanted them gone.

It's gambling, you can win or you can lose.As said hope you have a long happy life in your home, best of luck. Jim

[mark131v]

I think it is pretty pointless continuing to discuss this as you seem to believe you are the only person that knows what he is talking about, myself Jean and many others do not agree with you on this topic, the only important people in this are the land office officials as they are the subject matter experts on this topic and they too appear to disagree with you. I said way back that we would have to agree to disagree on this subject and I think we should do just that, you can rest assured though that from my point of view I am very happy and sleep a bit easier now it is done....look after yourself Jim and I wish you continued good luck with the trees

Edited February 19, 2013 by mark131v

[jamescollister]

I think it is pretty pointless continuing to discuss this as you seem to believe you are the only person that knows what he is talking about, myself Jean and many others do not agree with you on this topic, the only important people in this are the land office officials as they are the subject matter experts on this topic and they too appear to disagree with you. I said way back that we would have to agree to disagree on this subject and I think we should do just that, you can rest assured though that from my point of view I am very happy and sleep a bit easier now it is done....look after yourself Jim and I wish you continued good luck with the trees

Let me make this simple, did you buy land through a Thai national for your use. If so you have contravened the land code, that's it. Jim

[Khun Jean]

Jim, can you rent a house or a condominium without problem?

Can you rent a car without problem?

How about i give a Thai money to buy a car and i rent it from him? Would that circumvent laws?

How about a jetski, a bicycle, a motorcycle, a hotel room etc.?

Are those transactions and contracts within the law?

So what makes renting a piece of land so special, that it makes it illegal for a foreigner?

All of the above can also be done with a usufruct as long as it is immovable property.

[LennyW]

I think it is pretty pointless continuing to discuss this as you seem to believe you are the only person that knows what he is talking about, myself Jean and many others do not agree with you on this topic, the only important people in this are the land office officials as they are the subject matter experts on this topic and they too appear to disagree with you. I said way back that we would have to agree to disagree on this subject and I think we should do just that, you can rest assured though that from my point of view I am very happy and sleep a bit easier now it is done....look after yourself Jim and I wish you continued good luck with the trees

Let me make this simple, did you buy land through a Thai national for your use. If so you have contravened the land code, that's it. Jim

Let me make this simple for you Jim, Usufructs are not about buying land, you are simply paying an upfront rent for a piece of land for a period of time, which upon your demise or termination of the contract said piece of land will revert to the control of the Thai owner.

AN USUFRUCT IS NOT SELLING LAND TO A FOREIGNER - IT MERELY ALLOWS THE FOREIGNER USE FOR A DETERMINED TIME, THE OUTRIGHT POSESSION OF THE LAND REMAINS WITH THE THAI NATIONAL DURING YOUR TIME AS A TENNANT AND AFTER YOU ARE GONE.

It is just a glorified rental contract, completely legal and above board.

[jamescollister]

Jim, can you rent a house or a condominium without problem?

Can you rent a car without problem?

How about i give a Thai money to buy a car and i rent it from him? Would that circumvent laws?

How about a jetski, a bicycle, a motorcycle, a hotel room etc.?

Are those transactions and contracts within the law?

So what makes renting a piece of land so special, that it makes it illegal for a foreigner?

All of the above can also be done with a usufruct as long as it is immovable property.

Lost me, renting is renting, you rent a car, house etc. Usufrunct is a right to mine, quarry, harvest. You a not renting the land, you own the immoveable property, you as an alien can not own these things.

All the rights in a usufruct are prohibited for none Thai nationals, you may just swing a hammock between trees and do nothing, but you have a miners right to dig the place up, collect the fruits from trees and sell them.

Rights of habitation cover homes, usufructs cover doing business, whether you do business or not.

We have a rubber company, not made a penny in 3 years, I swing in a hammock, drink beer there, process our own rubber there. Still have to file tax and VAT reports.. It's a business and a usufrunt is for business not home ownership. Jim

[jamescollister]

I think it is pretty pointless continuing to discuss this as you seem to believe you are the only person that knows what he is talking about, myself Jean and many others do not agree with you on this topic, the only important people in this are the land office officials as they are the subject matter experts on this topic and they too appear to disagree with you. I said way back that we would have to agree to disagree on this subject and I think we should do just that, you can rest assured though that from my point of view I am very happy and sleep a bit easier now it is done....look after yourself Jim and I wish you continued good luck with the trees

Let me make this simple, did you buy land through a Thai national for your use. If so you have contravened the land code, that's it. Jim

Let me make this simple for you Jim, Usufructs are not about buying land, you are simply paying an upfront rent for a piece of land for a period of time, which upon your demise or termination of the contract said piece of land will revert to the control of the Thai owner.

AN USUFRUCT IS NOT SELLING LAND TO A FOREIGNER - IT MERELY ALLOWS THE FOREIGNER USE FOR A DETERMINED TIME, THE OUTRIGHT POSESSION OF THE LAND REMAINS WITH THE THAI NATIONAL DURING YOUR TIME AS A TENNANT AND AFTER YOU ARE GONE.

It is just a glorified rental contract, completely legal and above board.

So you are not getting a usufruct, but leasing the land, for which purpose, not to mine, quarry or farm, but to build a house. Not a usufruct, right of habitation, you give money to a Thai national to buy land on your behalf, for your use you commit a crime. Simple and plain. Which parts off the law are you above. Jim

[dinga]

I think it is pretty pointless continuing to discuss this as you seem to believe you are the only person that knows what he is talking about, myself Jean and many others do not agree with you on this topic, the only important people in this are the land office officials as they are the subject matter experts on this topic and they too appear to disagree with you. I said way back that we would have to agree to disagree on this subject and I think we should do just that, you can rest assured though that from my point of view I am very happy and sleep a bit easier now it is done....look after yourself Jim and I wish you continued good luck with the trees

Let me make this simple, did you buy land through a Thai national for your use. If so you have contravened the land code, that's it. Jim

Let me make this simple for you Jim, Usufructs are not about buying land, you are simply paying an upfront rent for a piece of land for a period of time, which upon your demise or termination of the contract said piece of land will revert to the control of the Thai owner.

AN USUFRUCT IS NOT SELLING LAND TO A FOREIGNER - IT MERELY ALLOWS THE FOREIGNER USE FOR A DETERMINED TIME, THE OUTRIGHT POSESSION OF THE LAND REMAINS WITH THE THAI NATIONAL DURING YOUR TIME AS A TENNANT AND AFTER YOU ARE GONE.

It is just a glorified rental contract, completely legal and above board.

So you are not getting a usufruct, but leasing the land, for which purpose, not to mine, quarry or farm, but to build a house. Not a usufruct, right of habitation, you give money to a Thai national to buy land on your behalf, for your use you commit a crime. Simple and plain. Which parts off the law are you above. Jim

Sigh - for God's sake Jim, go take an Aspro and have a good lie down (as Kevin 07 suggested). You're like a bloody blowfly in a bottle about this, and it's got very, very tiresome.

[jamescollister]

People lose money and are taken for a ride, if I stop one fool then it's worth it. Jim

[mark131v]

People lose money and are taken for a ride, if I stop one fool then it's worth it. Jim

75 baht Jim....... 75 baht is all it costs nothing more, no bungs bribes or lawyers, your crusade to save 75 baht is noble but a bit over the top I reckon.....