Muay Thai Recognized Globally, Drives Economy

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For the past several years at least, Citibank's few ATMs in Bangkok (Asoke in the Interchange Tower, CentralWorld and their Silom branch on Silom Road) have NOT charged the 150b ATM withdrawal fee levied by all the various Thai banks against non-Thai bank card users.

This morning, I needed to make an early morning withdrawal, my local AEON ATMs (mostly located inside malls) weren't open yet, so I decided to go to the Interchange Tower to use the Citibank ATMs there at their Thailand headquarters building. BIG MISTAKE!!!

Somewhere along the line (although I haven't seen any prior mention of it here), Citibank Thailand has begun charging the 150b withdrawal fee, at least against the U.S. VISA debit card I was using. And the printed ATM receipt I received clearly said "ATM Fee: Bht 150.00." The only good thing to say is, at least the Citibank ATM video screen warned of the ATM fee and asked if I wanted to proceed, before finalizing the transaction.

The card I was using will reimburse the Thai ATM fee at month's end, so it's not a big deal for a one-time (last time, now) use. But I generally won't use any of my U.S. bank cards in any Thai bank ATM that charges the 150b (+-$5) ATM fee.

So now that pretty much leaves the various AEON ATMs around Thailand as the only fee-free ATM option for foreigners.

[Rancid]

Poor old Citibank, poster child for bankster corrruption, they lost lots of money on bad bets, however the bonuses still need to be paid, hence the fees. Consider the trickle down effect on the economy and be glad to pay it.

[Langsuan Man]

I wonder if CitiBank is going to charge the 150 THB when a non Thai CitiBank card is used. Had a US CitiBank account and ATM card and when I was transiting Germany got hit for using a "non CitiBank ATM card" in the lobby of a CitiBank in Frankfurt. Maybe this is a new world wide policy ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

LSM, dont have any of their bank accounts myself, so can't say for sure.

But from what I remember from the past (back when the Citi ATMs in BKK were NOT charging the 150b withdrawal fee), if someone from the U.S. came here and tried to use their U.S. Citi ATM card in the Thai Citi ATMs, they were getting hit with the 3% or so foreign currency fee for starters. I'm pretty sure that still would be the case now.

Whether a U.S. Citi card holder would get hit with the 3% FCF AND the 150 baht withdrawal fee, I can't say for sure. But my guess would be... yes.

[isawasnake]

Why does this not surprise me?

[jellydog]

This has been going on at least since I arrived in BKK three months ago. So, its not that recent a development.

[terryp]

I used my European Bank card at Citi Asoke 2 weeks ago (everyday for 5 days) with NO 150 baht fee so it has not been going on at Citi Asoke for 3 months

I also will not give any ATM my business if there is a 150 baht fee....and it is business as they all make at least 2 baht per unit of Euro, $, GBP etc on the daily exchange rate

Edited February 18, 2013 by terryp

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There are times when banking fees will vary depending on the origin (country) of the bank card being used.

My experience as posted above was with a regular U.S. bank-issued VISA debit card, and that drew the 150b withdrawal fee from Citibank Thailand.

My withdrawal was 3 days ago, so the fee was clearly in place then at least for U.S. cards. I can't say whether I would have gotten the same result two weeks ago.

[ttnice30]

My sister has used the Citibank Singapore Card at Thai Citi ATM free of charge btw.

[soomak]

LSM, dont have any of their bank accounts myself, so can't say for sure.

But from what I remember from the past (back when the Citi ATMs in BKK were NOT charging the 150b withdrawal fee), if someone from the U.S. came here and tried to use their U.S. Citi ATM card in the Thai Citi ATMs, they were getting hit with the 3% or so foreign currency fee for starters. I'm pretty sure that still would be the case now.

Whether a U.S. Citi card holder would get hit with the 3% FCF AND the 150 baht withdrawal fee, I can't say for sure. But my guess would be... yes.

Used their Asoke branch ATM yesterday, and they did not charge an ATM fee, but they gave a terrible exchange rate.

My ATM card was issued in Singapore.

The exchange rate I got was 31.50 instead of 32.51, which is the current exchange rate for transferring USD, and 31.22 which is their exchange rate for buying 100 dollar bills.

That's indeed a 3% "whatever" fee, and pretty annoying, since I don't know of another way to get cash from my account...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Citi's Asian issued cards like Singapore may well have a different status from those issued in the U.S. as regards to fees in Thailand.

Of course, what matters in the end if the combination of the actual exchange rate used and any fees that come into the picture.

[Masell]

Hi,

Citibank Update:

I just withdrew money from Citibanks ATM located in their office at the United Center building just by Sala Daeng BTS station.

NO FEE was charged and I got an exchange rate equal of the best ranked foreign exchange rates of Thai banks, see site:

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx

I use a swedish issued MasterCard.

Hope someone finds this information useful.

// Marcus

[Pib]

Hi,

Citibank Update:

I just withdrew money from Citibanks ATM located in their office at the United Center building just by Sala Daeng BTS station.

NO FEE was charged and I got an exchange rate equal of the best ranked foreign exchange rates of Thai banks, see site:

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx

I use a swedish issued MasterCard.

Hope someone finds this information useful.

// Marcus

What "specific" rate did you get?

[tchk]

Same here. A few days ago I withdrew 20k at Citibank in the basement of Terminal 21 with a VISA card of DKB.de. No fee.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Same here. A few days ago I withdrew 20k at Citibank in the basement of Terminal 21 with a VISA card of DKB.de. No fee.

There is NO Citibank ATM in the basement of Terminal 21.

There are some Citibank ATMs across the street on the ground floor of the office tower there, which houses Citibank's main Bangkok branch.

Do you know what bank's ATMs you actually used or even where you were?

[tchk]

Same here. A few days ago I withdrew 20k at Citibank in the basement of Terminal 21 with a VISA card of DKB.de. No fee.

There is NO Citibank ATM in the basement of Terminal 21.

There are some Citibank ATMs across the street on the ground floor of the office tower there, which houses Citibank's main Bangkok branch.

Do you know what bank's ATMs you actually used or even where you were?

So why don't you use the ones you found?

http://www.findmyciti.com/th/

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm not sure what your comment has to do with the fact of there being no Citibank ATMs in the basement of Terminal 21, as you posted above.

But, as for Citibank ATMS in general in Thailand, I historically haven't used them because they charge the 150 baht ATM withdrawal fee against at least U.S.-based bank cards.

That was back when AEON ATMs didn't charge any withdrawal fee, although they changed that and began charging recently. There is, BTW, AEON ATMs in the basement of Terminal 21. But no longer any particular advantage in using them.

[Tony125]

I went on Citi Bank USA site and did live chat and was told yes I would be charged a 3% Foreign Transaction Fee on ony withdraw from my checking account in USA. I am told other country ATM Citi cards are not charged.

[vistascape]

LSM, dont have any of their bank accounts myself, so can't say for sure.

But from what I remember from the past (back when the Citi ATMs in BKK were NOT charging the 150b withdrawal fee), if someone from the U.S. came here and tried to use their U.S. Citi ATM card in the Thai Citi ATMs, they were getting hit with the 3% or so foreign currency fee for starters. I'm pretty sure that still would be the case now.

Whether a U.S. Citi card holder would get hit with the 3% FCF AND the 150 baht withdrawal fee, I can't say for sure. But my guess would be... yes.

Used their Asoke branch ATM yesterday, and they did not charge an ATM fee, but they gave a terrible exchange rate.

My ATM card was issued in Singapore.

The exchange rate I got was 31.50 instead of 32.51, which is the current exchange rate for transferring USD, and 31.22 which is their exchange rate for buying 100 dollar bills.

That's indeed a 3% "whatever" fee, and pretty annoying, since I don't know of another way to get cash from my account...

do every single bank have their own rate? i tought mastercard or visa had their own rate that were universal?

Edited May 9, 2015 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[Pib]

do every single bank have their own rate? i tought mastercard or visa had their own rate that were universal?

Visa/Mastercard cards issued by bank X or Y or Z use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate as reflected on the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate pages.

However, each card-issuing bank determines if it will pass along to the customer or absorb the approx 1% currency conversion fee charged by Visa/Mastercard plus possibly add-on to that fee like adding on a percent or two and maybe even an accompanying flat-fee charge. Those fees effectively lower the exchange rate...the final charge that hits your account.

So, if bank X charges 0% foreign transaction fee (FTF) they are absorbing the Visa/MC fee and also not adding on....you are getting the full Visa/Mastercard exchange rate.

If Bank Y charges 1% FTF they are basically passing along the Visa/MC 1% currency conversion fee without adding on....you are effectively getting a 1% lower exchange rate.

If Bank Z charges 3% FTF they are passing along the Visa/MC 1% fee and adding on their own 2% additional.

And like mentioned some card-issuing banks charge a percentage fee and add on a flat-fee of like $3 per transaction. These are the really fee evil banks.

How the banks reflect the fee in hitting your account is up to the bank...some separate the fee(s) out in a separate charge; some mix it in with the transaction (withdrawal/purchase) which then gives the impression of a lower exchange rate....you still got the full exchange rate but the fees effectively lower the rate.

Some banks will reimburse a local ATM fee like the Thai Bank foreign card fee of Bt180....most will not.

Summary: Visa/Mastercard exchange rates are used and the card issuing banks set their own associated fees which generally range from 1 to 3% and in some case an additional flat-fee. Now, Dynanmic Currency Conversion (DCC) transactions are different as the local bank processing the transaction sets the exchange rate (which will be lower than the Visa/MC rate)...and your card-issuing bank may still charge a FTF....not because it was a foreign currency charge since the DCC transaction charged you in your home country currency but simply because it was a transaction accomplished in a foreign location. Banksters they are.

[siam2007]

I'm not sure what your comment has to do with the fact of there being no Citibank ATMs in the basement of Terminal 21, as you posted above.

But, as for Citibank ATMS in general in Thailand, I historically haven't used them because they charge the 150 baht ATM withdrawal fee against at least U.S.-based bank cards.

That was back when AEON ATMs didn't charge any withdrawal fee, although they changed that and began charging recently. There is, BTW, AEON ATMs in the basement of Terminal 21. But no longer any particular advantage in using them.

The particular advantage is to save 3o Baht compared to the 180 Baht all other banks charge nowadays. So, as for Terminal21 (which I use sometimes too), walking 10 steps further to AEON on the same (basement) floor, away from SCB and TMB ATM's, will save you 30 Baht. that's worth a lunch at my housing estate ;-)

[siam2007]

I haven't used any Citibank ATM in Thailand so far (seems there are only 3 in the entire country anyway), but as I am passing Terminal21 as well as Central World once in a while, just out of interest: Do their ATMs spit out smaller bills ? AEON only has 1.000 Baht bills on offer which can be inconvenient sometimes

[Pib]

I haven't used any Citibank ATM in Thailand so far (seems there are only 3 in the entire country anyway), but as I am passing Terminal21 as well as Central World once in a while, just out of interest: Do their ATMs spit out smaller bills ? AEON only has 1.000 Baht bills on offer which can be inconvenient sometimes

It varies...most will spit out 100, 500, and 1,000 baht notes. Bome ATMs like AEON only do 1,000 baht notes if I remember right when I use to use AEON ATMs before they started charging a fee.

[vistascape]

Visa/Mastercard cards issued by bank X or Y or Z use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate as reflected on the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate pages.

However, each card-issuing bank determines if it will pass along to the customer or absorb the approx 1% currency conversion fee charged by Visa/Mastercard plus possibly add-on to that fee like adding on a percent or two and maybe even an accompanying flat-fee charge. Those fees effectively lower the exchange rate...the final charge that hits your account.

So, if bank X charges 0% foreign transaction fee (FTF) they are absorbing the Visa/MC fee and also not adding on....you are getting the full Visa/Mastercard exchange rate.

If Bank Y charges 1% FTF they are basically passing along the Visa/MC 1% currency conversion fee without adding on....you are effectively getting a 1% lower exchange rate.

If Bank Z charges 3% FTF they are passing along the Visa/MC 1% fee and adding on their own 2% additional.

And like mentioned some card-issuing banks charge a percentage fee and add on a flat-fee of like $3 per transaction. These are the really fee evil banks.

How the banks reflect the fee in hitting your account is up to the bank...some separate the fee(s) out in a separate charge; some mix it in with the transaction (withdrawal/purchase) which then gives the impression of a lower exchange rate....you still got the full exchange rate but the fees effectively lower the rate.

Some banks will reimburse a local ATM fee like the Thai Bank foreign card fee of Bt180....most will not.

Summary: Visa/Mastercard exchange rates are used and the card issuing banks set their own associated fees which generally range from 1 to 3% and in some case an additional flat-fee. Now, Dynanmic Currency Conversion (DCC) transactions are different as the local bank processing the transaction sets the exchange rate (which will be lower than the Visa/MC rate)...and your card-issuing bank may still charge a FTF....not because it was a foreign currency charge since the DCC transaction charged you in your home country currency but simply because it was a transaction accomplished in a foreign location. Banksters they are.

my bank has 0% exchange/currency fee and 0% flat-fee.

i dont get it, im not good with economics.

does the visa/mastercard exchange rates on their sites involve me in any way when using an atm i thailand? cause every bank in thailand has their own rate?

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx

[Pib]

my bank has 0% exchange/currency fee and 0% flat-fee.

i dont get it, im not good with economics.

does the visa/mastercard exchange rates on their sites involve me in any way when using an atm i thailand? cause every bank in thailand has their own rate?

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx

The website above does not give any ATM rates....it only gives rates for TT, Notes, Site Bill, Cheques, and Drafts.

Yes, yes, I know they have the statement at the top that says "For ATM Rates, Select TT currency type." That is a completely bogus statement just to keep people coming to the site/get clicks on their website/for ad revenue/etc. Now, the TT Buying Rate (used for incoming wire transfers) and Visa/Mastercard rate are indeed fairly close to each other give or take approx 0.5% (usually more like plus/minus 0.25% with a stable FX market) on any given day....sometimes the Visa/Mastercard rate is a few stang better than the TT Rate, sometimes a few stang less.

The only case where Thai banks have their only ATM rates is when they may offer you their DCC rate which more than likely they will not be called DCC but some warm and fuzzy term like Bank Rate, etc. A DCC rate will be in the 3 to 4% ballpark lower than the full Visa/Mastercard rate. Seems Mastercard logo cards frequently get offered DCC transactions at ATMs...just decline that rate and continue on to get the Visa/Mastercard rate.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Pib

[vistascape]

my bank has 0% exchange/currency fee and 0% flat-fee.

i dont get it, im not good with economics.

does the visa/mastercard exchange rates on their sites involve me in any way when using an atm i thailand? cause every bank in thailand has their own rate?

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx

The website above does not give any ATM rates....it only gives rates for TT, Notes, Site Bill, Cheques, and Drafts.

Yes, yes, I know they have the statement at the top that says "For ATM Rates, Select TT currency type." That is a completely bogus statement just to keep people coming to the site/get clicks on their website/for ad revenue/etc. Now, the TT Buying Rate (used for incoming wire transfers) and Visa/Mastercard rate are indeed fairly close to each other give or take approx 0.5% (usually more like plus/minus 0.25% with a stable FX market) on any given day....sometimes the Visa/Mastercard rate is a few stang better than the TT Rate, sometimes a few stang less.

The only case where Thai banks have their only ATM rates is when they may offer you their DCC rate which more than likely they will not be called DCC but some warm and fuzzy term like Bank Rate, etc. A DCC rate will be in the 3 to 4% ballpark lower than the full Visa/Mastercard rate. Seems Mastercard logo cards frequently get offered DCC transactions at ATMs...just decline that rate and continue on to get the Visa/Mastercard rate.

so you mean, basically every atm in bangkok has same rate?

[vistascape]

now i see

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx are only dcc rate.

so its either ddc rate or visa/mastercard rate?

[Pib]

now i see

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx are only dcc rate.

so its either ddc rate or visa/mastercard rate?

No, the rates are above website are for TT (wire), Notes, Site Bill, Cheques, and Drafts.

DCC is a completely different bank rate that the majority of banks do not post anywhere...a few will post their DCC rate for "credit card" transactions like SCB....look in the lower left hand corner of this SCB webpage. If an ATM offers you a DCC transaction that rate could possibly be different than a DCC rate for a credit card purchase. Visa/Mastercard do not like banks/merchants accomplishing a DCC transaction but it is legal and Visa/Mastercard still allow it.....some merchants/banks will push use of DCC simply because it makes more profit for them. Once again, it's perfectly legal but basically ends up costing the customer more and making more profit for banks/merchants.

Most banks do not post their DCC rates because they know many people are aware that DCC is a ripoff (but legal). A DCC transaction basically lowers the exchange rate by 3 to 4% in exchange for giving the customer the option to have the transaction accomplished in their home country currency. The banks love people who accept a DCC transaction because the banks/merchants make 3 to 4% more profit from such transactions; unfortunately, a charge/lower exchange rate of 3 to 4% hits the person's account.

Example: say an item costs Bt1000....you pay with your no foreign transaction fee card you said you have....the merchant rings the sale up as a "DCC transaction" to accomplish the charge in your card's currency...the receipt of signature that prints out will reflect both your card's currency "and" baht (a dead give away of a DCC purchase)...what also prints out on the top of the receipt or sometimes the bottom is the exchange rate and if you happen to know what the going full exchange rate is approximately like you follow forex markets, forward news, look at the TT Rate occasionally, etc., you will notice the DCC rate is several percent below the full rate. If you sign the receipt accepting the charge in your card's currency you have just effectively paid around Bt1030 to Bt1040 for that item due to the lower exchange rate...and of course that higher charge hits your card account for you to pay. DCC bad, very bad for the customer; DCC good, very good for the merchant/local bank processing the transaction.

Now for an ATM DCC transaction there is no receipt to review/sign, they usually do not show you the rate on the screen, and you just press a button on the screen whether you want to accept the DCC transaction which the ATM "will probably not" specificlally call a DCC transaction but give it some warm, fuzzy, vague name like Bank Rate, Home Rate, etc...etc...etc.

If you make a purchase with an item and the receipt for signature comes out showing both your card's currency and the local currency that is a DCC transaction...do not sign the receipt...tell the checkout clerk to cancel that transactions (only takes them a minute no matter what they may say), rerun the transaction as "charged in Thai baht"...you will notice the receipt for signature will print out with a Thai baht charge only. Be sure to keep the cancelled receipt they will give you just in the outside case the charge don't fall off your card account in a few days....funny, an initial charge hits your account almost immediately (even though you may not have even signed the receipt yet) but a cancellation usually takes a couple days for the cancelled charge to fall off. If in doubt if a certain merchant defaults to a DCC transaction for foreign cards while handing the clerk your card make direct eye contact and say "charge in Thai baht." Most merchants do not charge DCC, but many do...and it probably more likely in areas heavy with farangs/tourist like central Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket, etc.

[vistascape]

now i see

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx are only dcc rate.

so its either ddc rate or visa/mastercard rate?

No, the rates are above website are for TT (wire), Notes, Site Bill, Cheques, and Drafts.

DCC is a completely different bank rate that the majority of banks do not post anywhere...a few will post their DCC rate for "credit card" transactions like SCB....look in the lower left hand corner of this SCB webpage. If an ATM offers you a DCC transaction that rate could possibly be different than a DCC rate for a credit card purchase. Visa/Mastercard do not like banks/merchants accomplishing a DCC transaction but it is legal and Visa/Mastercard still allow it.....some merchants/banks will push use of DCC simply because it makes more profit for them. Once again, it's perfectly legal but basically ends up costing the customer more and making more profit for banks/merchants.

Most banks do not post their DCC rates because they know many people are aware that DCC is a ripoff (but legal). A DCC transaction basically lowers the exchange rate by 3 to 4% in exchange for giving the customer the option to have the transaction accomplished in their home country currency. The banks love people who accept a DCC transaction because the banks/merchants make 3 to 4% more profit from such transactions; unfortunately, a charge/lower exchange rate of 3 to 4% hits the person's account.

Example: say an item costs Bt1000....you pay with your no foreign transaction fee card you said you have....the merchant rings the sale up as a "DCC transaction" to accomplish the charge in your card's currency...the receipt of signature that prints out will reflect both your card's currency "and" baht (a dead give away of a DCC purchase)...what also prints out on the top of the receipt or sometimes the bottom is the exchange rate and if you happen to know what the going full exchange rate is approximately like you follow forex markets, forward news, look at the TT Rate occasionally, etc., you will notice the DCC rate is several percent below the full rate. If you sign the receipt accepting the charge in your card's currency you have just effectively paid around Bt1030 to Bt1040 for that item due to the lower exchange rate...and of course that higher charge hits your card account for you to pay. DCC bad, very bad for the customer; DCC good, very good for the merchant/local bank processing the transaction.

Now for an ATM DCC transaction there is no receipt to review/sign, they usually do not show you the rate on the screen, and you just press a button on the screen whether you want to accept the DCC transaction which the ATM "will probably not" specificlally call a DCC transaction but give it some warm, fuzzy, vague name like Bank Rate, Home Rate, etc...etc...etc.

If you make a purchase with an item and the receipt for signature comes out showing both your card's currency and the local currency that is a DCC transaction...do not sign the receipt...tell the checkout clerk to cancel that transactions (only takes them a minute no matter what they may say), rerun the transaction as "charged in Thai baht"...you will notice the receipt for signature will print out with a Thai baht charge only. Be sure to keep the cancelled receipt they will give you just in the outside case the charge don't fall off your card account in a few days....funny, an initial charge hits your account almost immediately (even though you may not have even signed the receipt yet) but a cancellation usually takes a couple days for the cancelled charge to fall off. If in doubt if a certain merchant defaults to a DCC transaction for foreign cards while handing the clerk your card make direct eye contact and say "charge in Thai baht." Most merchants do not charge DCC, but many do...and it probably more likely in areas heavy with farangs/tourist like central Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket, etc.

thanks man

so those exchange rates http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/default.aspx has nothing to do with atm's.

people post that adress believing that those rates are equivalent with atm's with respectively bank. theyre totaly wrong then.

[Pib]

Yeap...nothing to do with ATM rates since banks don't publish their ATM. What don't they publish them?...because Visa/Mastercard exchange rates are used (unless a DCC transaction). Some people believe the site provides ATM rates because of the bogus statement on the page of, "For ATM Rates, Select TT currency type" and also because they don't know better.

That statement at the site is just a flat-out lie to keep people coming to their site...gets them more site visits which is extremely important for the value of the site. As mentioned earlier while Visa/Mastercard exchange rates will be pretty close to the Thai bank TT Buying Rate shown at the site (say plus or minus 0.50%....many times closer), the Visa/Mastercard exchange rates can be seen at their exchange rate webpages and that's the only place to see them.

But the site is very nice to see other exchange rates at Thai banks like the TT and Notes rates since you can see a bunch of various Thai bank rates at once versus having to visit each individual Thai bank webpage. Yeap, very nice "except" for determining actual exchange rates at an ATM.