Our Incredibly Fortunate Rebirth.

[fabianfred]

Our incredibly fortunate rebirth.

1. We have been born into the Human realm. A very difficult thing to achieve. A result of much good karma from the past. The human realm is the smallest of the 31 realms. The Buddha compared the number of beings in the human realm with a small amount of dust upon his fingernail, whilst the number of beings in the four lower realms of misery (hell, animal,hungry ghost,demons) he compared with the whole Earth.

2. We have been born during an extremely fortunate Aeon when there are Five Buddhas.

3. We have been born whilst a Buddha,s teachings and Dhamma are still extant and have not yet been lost.

4. We have been born in a state of good health. Not crippled, so we can travel easily to meet and listen to Dhamma, and can even ordain in the Sangha. Not deaf or blind so we can read or hear the Dhamma. Not of low intelligence so we can understand the Dhamma.

5. We have been born in a Country or Society where we are free to choose our own religion and so meet and practice the Dhamma. Those born into Countries where the main religion is fundamentalist and allows for no deviation put their lives at risk to practice a different belief. Communist Countries often try to ban religion since it gives people hope and an alternative to the doctrine the state wishes people to follow and believe in. Jungle dwellers living simple natural lives often have no knowledge of the World's religions.

Those born Human but follow other beliefs did not create the karmic cause for them to meet the Dhamma, and those who meet it but ignore the teachings also have insufficient Paramis.

Paramis are perfections, good karma created over past lives, which lead to good conditions in a future rebirth. One who has given alms to monks in past lives or taken the precepts and studied the Dhamma, maybe even during the time of a past Buddha, might have enjoyed a good rebirth in the heaven realms as a result, but once reborn in the human realm there are still traces of that karma, which cause them to meet the Dhamma again.

Those who were born during times when the Dhamma was alive, but ignored the teachings or opportunities to make merit with the Sangha, created the cause for them to miss the opportunities presented in the present day.

People often say 'All religions are the same, they all teach you to be good.' I reply that simply being good is not good enough. Being good means avoiding bad karma and creating good karma. The result of this is a good rebirth. The Buddha did not strive for billions of aeons as a Boddhisatta to simply teach us to be good. He taught us how to escape the cycle of rebirth. The goal is to escape rebith, not get a better rebirth.

Other religions cannot teach what they do not know. They cannot teach about karma, rebirth, different realms and Nibbana if they do not know about them.

Nowadays, the vast majority of Westerners from what we term the First World Countries are Christian. Christianity did not exist at the time of the Buddha. The main religions in the area and time of the Buddha's birth were the Brahmin/Hindu beliefs. They embraced karma and reincarnation, but the Buddha sought to correct their misunderstandings about rebirth and karma. Those religions still exist and still embrace their own incorrect views on

reincarnation and karma.

It is said that early Christian teachings also included belief in reincarnation, but these were left out by the council which decided what would go into the Bible and what wouldn't. From the viewpoint of a Buddhist, the men who were leaders of the Christian church and still enjoy a position within it as priests and cardinals etc. are still ordinary Worldly beings, not yet reaching the status of Ariyahood. They were and are still plagued by defilements.

The lust for power is a great defilement. They wanted to keep the believers under their thrall and under their power. They created the idea of original sin and taught that we only get one life to get it right. If we follow their teaching we can end up in heaven, but if we do not then we will suffer in hell. They gave themselves the power to excomunicate those who did not fall under their spell and who refused to believe them. They would declare them sinners and hell-bound so the remaining majority of believers would ostracise or even attack those free-thinkers.

The vast majority of people think of this life as precious and the only one, the only chance we get. They are therefore determined to enjoy what pleasures they can and avoid what suffering and punishments they can..... Hoping that their beliefs are correct.

The trouble is that other religions are just that, beliefs, with no concrete proof. Buddhism, not really belonging with the rest, is not a belief system. We know that there are many lives and many realms, so whether we get it right or wrong we will take rebirth....there is always a chance to do better next time. Those who try to threaten us with this or that have no power over us. We still do not want to die.....or at least not just yet. We still enjoy our lives, even if they include much suffering. A true Buddhist who understands the Dhamma would never be afraid of death, since we know we have died and been reborn countless times in the infinite past. We should be ready to die rather than give up our refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha or even to break the precepts.

Other religions try to teach us to be good, but according to our dhamma they are incomplete.

Correct view is the most important part of the Eightfold Path. This means correct understanding that the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha are worthy of respect and a refuge. Understanding that the laws of karma and rebirth are real. Understanding the three factors of existence within Samsara....suffering, impermanence and non-self. Note that I say understanding, not belief. We do not simply believe in these things, but seek to understand and know them to be true.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Fred.

Thinking back over the months/years this point has been discussed a number of times without concensus.

I have dificulty removing from my mind that your illustration of re birth is synonymous with reincarnation.

There appears no difference other than a "flame sparking another flame" with the essence of us as the illustration.

When you analyze it, one (rockyysdt, fabianfred, & others) can't both re generate into many lives and many relms unless there is something common to all (spirit, soul, call it what you will).

The Buddha was quite explicit about the absence of a doer, and that practice eventually yields an experience which reveals that memory, thought, and consciousness are just processes and there is nothing inside which endures.

lt is said that early Christian teachings also included belief in
reincarnation, but these were left out by the council which decided what
would go into the Bible and what wouldn't. From the viewpoint of a
Buddhist, the men who were leaders of the Christian church and still
enjoy a position within it as priests and cardinals etc. are still
ordinary Worldly beings, not yet reaching the status of Ariyahood. They
were and are still plagued by defilements.
The lust for power is a great defilement. They wanted to keep the
believers under their thrall and under their power. They created the
idea of original sin and taught that we only get one life to get it
right.

Exactly the same thing can be said about the Buddhist councils.

Not only did the Buddhist Councils alter what the Buddha taught, they even began to divide into sects and quarrel amongst each other.

Also in a poor agrarian society Buddhist Monks/Abbots were capable of rallying the community to provide resources such as shelter/food/medical asistance and the resource to travel.

The people placed these Monks on a pedistal and supported them.

In a very poor agrarian society where villagers worked extremely hard from day break until dusk eeking out a living, the Monks status allowed them to rise above such squalor and to have a relatively easy life.

You could say that those masquerading in cloth are akin to the priests and cardinals.

The vast majority of people think of this life as precious and the only
one, the only chance we get. They are therefore determined to enjoy what
pleasures they can and avoid what suffering and punishments they
can..... Hoping that their beliefs are correct.

I don't think that belief in a single life locks one into attachment to greed, aversion and delusion.

Knowing and understanding the 4 Noble Truths is a choice one can make to improve ones life regardless of one life or many.

In fact, belief in many lives (renicarnation) can make one lazy and practice short of onesr abilities, with the fallback promise of stream entry.

Whether such a thing is so or not, it is egotistical and likely to get in the way of ones progress and the level one can attain before they expire.

A true Buddhist who understands the Dhamma would never be afraid of
death, since we know we have died and been reborn countless times in the
infinite past.

When the chips are down, anyone short of "awakening", will naturally fear death.

I think, one needs to have progressed with their regular practice, substantially, before they can shelter themselves from such fear.

Whilst still anchored to ego, it is this which will die.

It is the ego we are anchored to which will fear death.

When you really look at it, if there is something beyond ego/l/me, l am it is the only thing l am aware of.

The only thing we are aware of, which feels, thinks, is, remembers, and dies.

That (if it is so) which endures (against what the Buddha taught) is unknown to us/ego and therefore is a stranger to the essence I am and the essence I address in this post to.

We/l (ego) is impermanent and will die.

If I/me is all I know/experience, then death will be associated with fear, unless I have personal experience that l/me is just a series of processes and there is no doer within which can die.

Even so, I agree that, no matter how impermanent our me/l/ego is, it is truly incredibly fortunate that we exist to experience.

Edited February 26, 2013 by rockyysdt

[overherebc]

More than 2000 years of organised religion have caused more problems than anything else in this world . Why not just forget the whole thing as a Medieval superstitious belief and treat everyone the same as you.

That will never happen because each and every follower of whatever religion believes that theirs is the rteal and only one so they they try to change things and cause more problems. Don't ask me for quotes, read history.

[fabianfred]

Thanks for your input Rocky...

Personally I have no problems with the idea of non-self meaning that there is no permanent, unchanging me, since it is all a matter of conditions and natural causes.....and at the same time also understanding that there is a continual flow of consciousness from one existence to another....something caused by karma and carrying the karma along with it.

Although we do not remember those past existences and we don't know what stores of karma there are waiting to bring their resulting vipaka.

My early reading of the books by Lobsang Rampa which brought me into Buddhism, and later reading about Edgar Cayce both introduced me to the idea of a Hall of Records, also called the Akashic record. This refers to a huge databank (they referred to a library in their pre-digital times) where there is recorded every thought and action by every being since the infinite past. Some beings, Buddhas, and others with special abilities, can recall or access the information recorded. They can see the past lives and/or the past karma of other beings. Some meditators can also see their own past lives....or at least a few of them. Cayce had access to information, medical knowledge, and knowledge about the ailments his patients suffered from, and how to cure them, and about some of their past lives.

My present teacher LP Jaran has the ability to see the past karma of beings. Sometimes this knowledge can also stray into the future...or possible future of beings also.

My point is that they must be getting this information from somewhere external to them. I doubt if we carry all this information about our past existences or karma about with us, in our subconsciousness.

@overherebc

I agree that many religions have done more harm than good in history, and are still doing so now. Although Buddhist Countries such as Burma and Thailand have made war in the past, it was never over religion, but territory. Buddhism does not make war on others, nor even go about seeking to convert others to their beliefs. In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

[Thaddeus]

In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

Shouldn't really be posting on an internet forum then should you, at least not the first post, as no one asked.

[canuckamuck]

The trouble is that other religions are just that, beliefs, with no concrete proof. Buddhism, not really belonging with the rest, is not a belief system.

Your first three paragraphs are full of beliefs which must be taken in faith as there is no concrete proof of them. Some of the things held by Buddhists about previous realms are fantastic in the extreme.

It is said that early Christian teachings also included belief in reincarnation, but these were left out by the council which decided what would go into the Bible and what wouldn't. From the viewpoint of a Buddhist, the men who were leaders of the Christian church and still enjoy a position within it as priests and cardinals etc. are still ordinary Worldly beings, not yet reaching the status of Ariyahood. They were and are still plagued by defilements.

The lust for power is a great defilement. They wanted to keep the believers under their thrall and under their power. They created the idea of original sin and taught that we only get one life to get it right. If we follow their teaching we can end up in heaven, but if we do not then we will suffer in hell. They gave themselves the power to excomunicate those who did not fall under their spell and who refused to believe them. They would declare them sinners and hell-bound so the remaining majority of believers would ostracise or even attack those free-thinkers.

It is impossible to divorce Christian teachings from Judaism. Early Christian counsels did not decide about what parts of the Tanakh (which includes some mystery about the afterlife which may be interpreted as reincarnation) belonged in the Christian Canon. Early Christian councils only determined articles to be contained in the New Testament. However, there is some evidence that the followers of Jesus, believed in the possibility of reincarnation, and it is included in the New Testament.

The concept of original sin predates Buddhism by many thousand years.

All of the charges of misdeeds that you bring against leaders in Christian organizations are mirrored in the misdeeds of leaders in Buddhist organizations. Power, pride, selfishness, and lust, are powerful forces that most (perhaps all) men are unable to resist entirely without supernatural assistance. An assistance that men, regardless of the color of their robes, are free to disregard in both religions.

Edited February 27, 2013 by canuckamuck

[huli]

In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

Shouldn't really be posting on an internet forum then should you, at least not the first post, as no one asked.

The purpose of an Internet Forum is to share ideas, there is none other. Members are explicitly invited to make first posts. This is not the same as preaching or trying to convert other people to Buddhism. It is a voluntary sharing of ideas among people with a common interest. Your comparison seems without merit (note the clever pun).

[Thaddeus]

In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

Shouldn't really be posting on an internet forum then should you, at least not the first post, as no one asked.

The purpose of an Internet Forum is to share ideas, there is none other. Members are explicitly invited to make first posts. This is not the same as preaching or trying to convert other people to Buddhism. It is a voluntary sharing of ideas among people with a common interest. Your comparison seems without merit (note the clever pun).

Ah merit, another clever con-cept twisted to swell the coffers in the Royal Bank of Buddha.

[rockyysdt]

Thanks for your input Rocky...

Personally I have no problems with the idea of non-self meaning that there is no permanent, unchanging me, since it is all a matter of conditions and natural causes.....and at the same time also understanding that there is a continual flow of consciousness from one existence to another....something caused by karma and carrying the karma along with it.

Although we do not remember those past existences and we don't know what stores of karma there are waiting to bring their resulting vipaka.

My early reading of the books by Lobsang Rampa which brought me into Buddhism, and later reading about Edgar Cayce both introduced me to the idea of a Hall of Records, also called the Akashic record. This refers to a huge databank (they referred to a library in their pre-digital times) where there is recorded every thought and action by every being since the infinite past. Some beings, Buddhas, and others with special abilities, can recall or access the information recorded. They can see the past lives and/or the past karma of other beings. Some meditators can also see their own past lives....or at least a few of them. Cayce had access to information, medical knowledge, and knowledge about the ailments his patients suffered from, and how to cure them, and about some of their past lives.

My present teacher LP Jaran has the ability to see the past karma of beings. Sometimes this knowledge can also stray into the future...or possible future of beings also.

My point is that they must be getting this information from somewhere external to them. I doubt if we carry all this information about our past existences or karma about with us, in our subconsciousness.

@overherebc

I agree that many religions have done more harm than good in history, and are still doing so now. Although Buddhist Countries such as Burma and Thailand have made war in the past, it was never over religion, but territory. Buddhism does not make war on others, nor even go about seeking to convert others to their beliefs. In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

I'm open to both possibilites (moment to moment vs life to life), as in an infinitie world, anything is possible.

If life to life is possible, then those recorded in the databank might share a lineage but aren't the same (impermanent/changing).

If one subscribes to "life to life" then who/what is the victor who/which frees themselves from re birth and suffering?

If there isn't such a thing, then if nothing becomes free then in a "life to life model" it is pointless to practice.

If "nothing" escapes from re birth & suffering then the only alternative is extinction.

If there is "something" that escapes re birth/suffering, then is this permanent/unconditioned?

If there is, we come back to the original issue, is there soul spirit (permanent/unconditioned), or does it continue to change/expire, but how so if re birth is no longer an option?

If "something" attains perfection then again this sounds awfully like a spirit/soul.

This model completely goes against the Buddhas teachings of no doer other than a series of processes (skhandas etc).

The early teachings of the Buddha dovetail neatly into the model "re birth = moment to moment, impermanence/conditioned, awakening = freedom from delusion/aversion/greed, and practice of the eightfold path freeing oneself from conditioning/ego which are responsible for Dhukka.

The early teachings of the Buddha, untouched by councils and scholars with Christian backgrounds.

The early teachings teach of a practice (8 fold path) which allows one to be freed from delusion/aversion/greed in this life.

Practicing of the 8 fold path, free from belief, allows one to live the best possible life one can.

Is there a better way one can live?

To me Buddhism is all about living.

To me attachment to the metaphysical (maybe or may not) is just another belief/religion/attachment.

Choosing the correct religion??

Out of hundreds which is correct?

If there is promise of eternity the ego will attach.

We don't really need to know, because the Buddha illustrated a practice with which we can find out for ourselves.

What better way for our current incarnation to find out than through honest, faithful practice.

I don't think it is for us to speculate whether this will be in this life or another re birth.

A Buddhist (against the shackles of conditioning) should give every moment his/her best.

Edited February 27, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

More than 2000 years of organised religion have caused more problems than anything else in this world . Why not just forget the whole thing as a Medieval superstitious belief and treat everyone the same as you.

That will never happen because each and every follower of whatever religion believes that theirs is the rteal and only one so they they try to change things and cause more problems. Don't ask me for quotes, read history.

I've read quite a bit of history. You're talking about christianity not religion in general right? Hence the lack of quoteable material?

[Several]

Rocky, gotta disagree with your observations on death. Many people overcome this fear without awakening. Soldiers for one. Emergency service workers. Determination and anger can push you beyond it. Its a case of letting go in the moment. When faced with imminent death some people become calm and clear. I agree with most of what you say but I would add this too. Fear is a funny thing. I have seen people face dire situations fearlessly, yet still be scared of spiders. Fear of death is just one aspect of fear itself.

[rockyysdt]

Rocky, gotta disagree with your observations on death. Many people overcome this fear without awakening. Soldiers for one. Emergency service workers. Determination and anger can push you beyond it. Its a case of letting go in the moment. When faced with imminent death some people become calm and clear. I agree with most of what you say but I would add this too. Fear is a funny thing. I have seen people face dire situations fearlessly, yet still be scared of spiders. Fear of death is just one aspect of fear itself.

I must agree with you.

There is much work available on the subject of "dealing with death" and "acceptance".

I've also seen some who prefer death to the suffering their illness causes.

It's something I've avoided, putting my mortality out of mind, even though I've used up the greater portion of my allocated time.

Until I go through the stages of acceptance and dealing with such a thing I won't really know.

I will say though, that those who are firmly anchored to ego and who haven't gone through the stages of dealing with death will either experience considerable denial and/or much fear and anxiety.

Edited February 27, 2013 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

Shouldn't really be posting on an internet forum then should you, at least not the first post, as no one asked.

simple...I am not a monk...if you read what I said it says it is forbidden for monks....not laypeople.

quote// Ah merit, another clever con-cept twisted to swell the coffers in the Royal Bank of Buddha.

merit is made by doing many good deeds, not merely by giving money. In fact giving is the easiest and least merituous way of making merit.

Edited February 27, 2013 by fabianfred

[Thaddeus]

merit is made by doing many good deeds, not merely by giving money. In fact giving is the easiest and least merituous way of making merit.

And the most common practice around here.

[fabianfred]

merit is made by doing many good deeds, not merely by giving money. In fact giving is the easiest and least merituous way of making merit.

And the most common practice around here.

...that is because either the monks do not know better, or choose to teach the lay people that giving is the way to get to heaven...not the Buddha's true teaching or way, but popular among those who still worship the money god.

[Several]

We sadly live in a world of economic 'rationalism' where everything is assigned a dollar value. It would be almost impossible for any religion to survive without it. Medical care is not free, transport is sometimes provided (I had to pay 700 baht today to go get my 90 day report done), phone credit (I have almost no contact with anybody without it, its not always a luxury as I help people get through hard times). Mostly we are given food and non presciption medicines rather than money. And lots of laundry powder. I know that temples look gilded and ostentatious, admittedly some do focus on cash, the majority do not and we provide many services to the locals. What a thing seems to be and what it really is are often not the same. People would be better off questioning the money ceo's, politicians and police are hoarding. By comparison the temples are small fry.

[fabianfred]

It is unfortunate that they make it so difficult for Farang monks here. Insisting upon the three month reporting means you cannot disappear into the forest on tudong for any length of time. Plus the usual visa fee of 1,900 Baht is payable every year not including expenses just getting about to get all the paperwork done....and some people still point the finger and say 'oh..I thought it was against the Vinaya to use money...'

Thai monks have it easy in comparison. And we are only allowed to be monks here to study...not teach...which is why after nine consecutive one year visas they say ...go home and teach there.

[rockyysdt]

It is unfortunate that they make it so difficult for Farang monks here. Insisting upon the three month reporting means you cannot disappear into the forest on tudong for any length of time. Plus the usual visa fee of 1,900 Baht is payable every year not including expenses just getting about to get all the paperwork done....and some people still point the finger and say 'oh..I thought it was against the Vinaya to use money...'

Thai monks have it easy in comparison. And we are only allowed to be monks here to study...not teach...which is why after nine consecutive one year visas they say ...go home and teach there.

Hi Fred.

I'm fascinated and often ponder the period one may take to reach Awakening.

I reflect on the impediments in my life which prolong such a process.

My thoughts are that if I could shed my responsibilities to family and no longer needed to be employed, provided I had good teachers, a good Sangha, and practiced unwaveringly, with regular guidance, ten -fifteen years might be enough.

Naturally such a period would vary dramatically due to my ability to refrain from breaking precepts and from being distracted with attachments.

How accurate is this?

Edited February 28, 2013 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

One cannot put a time-scale on it...it depends mostly upon our own effort.

The Vipassana technique I prefer is the style by LP Teean...dynamic meditation. A student of his who is now a teacher was on retreat at his temple before LP Teean died. By practicing daily only stopping for meals after a few months he still had to reach the important stage of breakthrough and realising Nama rupa....

The second time I met L.P.Tee-an was at wat (Thai

for monastery) Mokh. There was a retreat held there.

I felt rather embarrassed moving my arms and hands

about so I waited for everybody to leave before trying

it out. I wanted to verify for myself whether this

practice would work or not. I went into the forest and

forced myself to do the rhythmic meditation.

Whenever someone would walk past, I’d stop

immediately. Walking meditation was no problem

though.

I’d sleep only for five hours at night and used all my

waking hours for meditation. No rest in the daytime.

I practiced like this for 43 days. One of the teachers

asked me, Do you understand yet, Rupa/nama?

I told him no but on that day while doing walking

meditation I saw it very clearly. I felt the weight of

my legs, I was aware of each step, I was aware of

eating, drinking - all of it! Awareness was continuous.

But when asked, Do you know Rupa/nama? , I didn’t

understand. As the teacher walked off to the next

person, a flash arose in my mind. Wherever I looked

I saw Rupa/nama all around me! I almost shouted to

the teacher to come back. I wanted to say, ‘I know

now!’ I got the answer right there in my own mind!

I went to tell L.P.Tee - an about it. Do you really

know? , he asked. ‘I sure do!’ I said. I felt that even

when someone would say that it wasn’t real, it still

would be real because I knew that it was real.

It is a kind of wisdom that comes from awareness.

L.P.Tee-an asked, ‘How long have you been here?’

43 days, I answered. ‘That’s a long time’, he said.

Yes it took me a long time. Because I still clung to my

former ways of practicing and so the mind wasn’t

empty; it was difficult.

A novice was practicing there and the Novice asked him if he had achieved Nama and Rupa yet....and he said no....and the Novice said 'oh...not yet...a month should be enough!!'

but of course we all progress at different rates.

If you are aiming for Nibbana wjho knows how long....aim lower, for stream-entry...which must be passed anyway. Then you'll be safe...and that should be achievable this lifetime.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/127729498/Book-Lp-Jarun-Akaliko

Edited February 28, 2013 by fabianfred

[rockyysdt]

One cannot put a time-scale on it...it depends mostly upon our own effort.

The Vipassana technique I prefer is the style by LP Teean...dynamic meditation. A student of his who is now a teacher was on retreat at his temple before LP Teean died. By practicing daily only stopping for meals after a few months he still had to reach the important stage of breakthrough and realising Nama rupa....

The second time I met L.P.Tee-an was at wat (Thai

for monastery) Mokh. There was a retreat held there.

I felt rather embarrassed moving my arms and hands

about so I waited for everybody to leave before trying

it out. I wanted to verify for myself whether this

practice would work or not. I went into the forest and

forced myself to do the rhythmic meditation.

Whenever someone would walk past, I’d stop

immediately. Walking meditation was no problem

though.

I’d sleep only for five hours at night and used all my

waking hours for meditation. No rest in the daytime.

I practiced like this for 43 days. One of the teachers

asked me, Do you understand yet, Rupa/nama?

I told him no but on that day while doing walking

meditation I saw it very clearly. I felt the weight of

my legs, I was aware of each step, I was aware of

eating, drinking - all of it! Awareness was continuous.

But when asked, Do you know Rupa/nama? , I didn’t

understand. As the teacher walked off to the next

person, a flash arose in my mind. Wherever I looked

I saw Rupa/nama all around me! I almost shouted to

the teacher to come back. I wanted to say, ‘I know

now!’ I got the answer right there in my own mind!

I went to tell L.P.Tee - an about it. Do you really

know? , he asked. ‘I sure do!’ I said. I felt that even

when someone would say that it wasn’t real, it still

would be real because I knew that it was real.

It is a kind of wisdom that comes from awareness.

L.P.Tee-an asked, ‘How long have you been here?’

43 days, I answered. ‘That’s a long time’, he said.

Yes it took me a long time. Because I still clung to my

former ways of practicing and so the mind wasn’t

empty; it was difficult.

A novice was practicing there and the Novice asked him if he had achieved Nama and Rupa yet....and he said no....and the Novice said 'oh...not yet...a month should be enough!!'

but of course we all progress at different rates.

If you are aiming for Nibbana wjho knows how long....aim lower, for stream-entry...which must be passed anyway. Then you'll be safe...and that should be achievable this lifetime.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/127729498/Book-Lp-Jarun-Akaliko

Interesting Fred.

Can you describe the arm practice?

Does it make a difference?

I suspected that we all progress at different rates, but I feel that limiting ones aim will guarantee limiting ones achievement.

How does limiting your goal to stream entry imrpove your practice/

I've felt that ones progress is impeded by ones ability to overcome conditioning (attachment to aversion, greed, & delusion).

Isn't the rest of it is down to dedication, full time practice and appropriate teachers?

[fabianfred]

Some people think that the goal of Arahant (nibbana) is too difficult to reach in this lifetime....so often give up. To aim for the first step which is sotapanna and has to be passed anyway upon the way to Arahant is a much more achieveable goal and certainly possible in this lifetime.

[transam]

Keep reading about all this religious stuff and whats going to happen to us when we pop off, seems nobody is happy to be here and wants to pop off to better things, YET, everything written about whats going to happen when you pop off is written by a bloke who has never popped off.

What happens to all the other living creatures that have the same organs as us humans that we kill every day and eat ?

Religion is for those who cannot deal with anything and want some book to point a way, BUT, it will have been written by a bloke who was looking for HIS own way.

[Several]

Keep reading about all this religious stuff and whats going to happen to us when we pop off, seems nobody is happy to be here and wants to pop off to better things, YET, everything written about whats going to happen when you pop off is written by a bloke who has never popped off.

What happens to all the other living creatures that have the same organs as us humans that we kill every day and eat ?

Religion is for those who cannot deal with anything and want some book to point a way, BUT, it will have been written by a bloke who was looking for HIS own way.

Popping off is an important event. Unavoidable. All the books were writ by blokes who did pop off in the end. They may have writ better books after popping off, but the publishers can't see dead people so they remain unpublished.

In Buddhism what happens after a being has popped its cogs depends on kamma.

There are as many fantasies about religions as there are in them. What makes you think any religion is a refuge from dealing with things? The books were written by people who believed they had found a way already. All significant human experience has been recorded in books. Pretty sure any university educated scientist has read at least one or two books. And academics are notorious for hiding away from reality in ivory towers (and glass houses).

The animals, academics and adherents all die the same death. The life lived was the result of the actions of previous lives. You can look at this as kammic consequence or chaos theory. The way you play the hand you're dealt will have consequence to future lives (notice I avoid saying 'your' in relation to other lives), unless your behaviour can transform your kammic potential into a zero sum thus avoiding rebirth. What Fred is saying is that to be born at this particular time seems fortunate for many reasons. To Buddhists, for the reasons cited. For rationalists an abundance of technology for communication and experimentation plus the freedom to pursue these avenues. I'll bet Gallileo would sacrifice being the man who proved the heliocentric model for a life in this day and age. He wrote a book before he died too.

[transam]

Keep reading about all this religious stuff and whats going to happen to us when we pop off, seems nobody is happy to be here and wants to pop off to better things, YET, everything written about whats going to happen when you pop off is written by a bloke who has never popped off.

What happens to all the other living creatures that have the same organs as us humans that we kill every day and eat ?

Religion is for those who cannot deal with anything and want some book to point a way, BUT, it will have been written by a bloke who was looking for HIS own way.

Popping off is an important event. Unavoidable. All the books were writ by blokes who did pop off in the end. They may have writ better books after popping off, but the publishers can't see dead people so they remain unpublished.

In Buddhism what happens after a being has popped its cogs depends on kamma.

There are as many fantasies about religions as there are in them. What makes you think any religion is a refuge from dealing with things? The books were written by people who believed they had found a way already. All significant human experience has been recorded in books. Pretty sure any university educated scientist has read at least one or two books. And academics are notorious for hiding away from reality in ivory towers (and glass houses).

The animals, academics and adherents all die the same death. The life lived was the result of the actions of previous lives. You can look at this as kammic consequence or chaos theory. The way you play the hand you're dealt will have consequence to future lives (notice I avoid saying 'your' in relation to other lives), unless your behaviour can transform your kammic potential into a zero sum thus avoiding rebirth. What Fred is saying is that to be born at this particular time seems fortunate for many reasons. To Buddhists, for the reasons cited. For rationalists an abundance of technology for communication and experimentation plus the freedom to pursue these avenues. I'll bet Gallileo would sacrifice being the man who proved the heliocentric model for a life in this day and age. He wrote a book before he died too.

Sorry but for me it's all a nonsense from a blokes ideas in writing who are/were alive. 6 million jews who perished via a blokes hand would perhaps like to comment, but they cannot, they are history, same as the stuff we ate today. .

[Several]

Yeah, but thats it isn't it. We don't need to suffer persecution for our ideas today. Many people find anything spiritual to be baseless. I have the same opinion about science. But we're not getting gassed for it. Freedom of speech. I cannot see what skeptics think they're going to achieve by constantly rubbishing things they simply do not understand. In fact its beginning to sound like sciences main function is to give people an excuse to be rude about anything outside their own discipline. I never hear or read any constructive critcism, just name calling or dismissive statements. I know it'll probably never end, you are free to say what you like. But I am not. Monks must refrain from wrong speech (so apologies if I've slipped), and I have probably sacrificed more than any scientist you know of to follow this path of inquiry. You said we're avoiding life but I disagree. Intoxicants, sex, all those other indulgences I gave up are means for avoiding reality for a time. We must even avoid daydreaming, which is another escape from reality. You seek truth in your way, I in mine. Perhaps one day others will see they are in fact the same thing.

[Thaddeus]

In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

Shouldn't really be posting on an internet forum then should you, at least not the first post, as no one asked.

simple...I am not a monk...if you read what I said it says it is forbidden for monks....not laypeople.

quote// Ah merit, another clever con-cept twisted to swell the coffers in the Royal Bank of Buddha.

merit is made by doing many good deeds, not merely by giving money. In fact giving is the easiest and least merituous way of making merit.

But, you started this thread preaching, once you start preaching, you have then effectively removed yourself from being a lay-person, haven't you?

[fabianfred]

In fact it is forbidden for Buddhist monks to teach unless they have been requested, or asked about the Dhamma.

Shouldn't really be posting on an internet forum then should you, at least not the first post, as no one asked.

simple...I am not a monk...if you read what I said it says it is forbidden for monks....not laypeople.

quote// Ah merit, another clever con-cept twisted to swell the coffers in the Royal Bank of Buddha.

merit is made by doing many good deeds, not merely by giving money. In fact giving is the easiest and least merituous way of making merit.

But, you started this thread preaching, once you start preaching, you have then effectively removed yourself from being a lay-person, haven't you?

But this IS the Buddhism forum...for those interested in Buddhism. I do not make the post about Buddhism in the General forum and try to force people to read it.... If you don't like the heat then get out of the kitchen...if you don't like religion then why come here?

I don't go into the Golfing forum and start compalining about golf do i?

...and Gallileo has probably been reborn since and may be alive now...

[camerata]

Let's get back to the topic at hand: our very fortunate (as defined in the Pali Canon) and precious current life. Needless to say, there is an open invitation in the Buddhism Forum for folks to tell us what they know about Buddhism.

[rockyysdt]

Yeah, but thats it isn't it. We don't need to suffer persecution for our ideas today. Many people find anything spiritual to be baseless. I have the same opinion about science. But we're not getting gassed for it. Freedom of speech. I cannot see what skeptics think they're going to achieve by constantly rubbishing things they simply do not understand. In fact its beginning to sound like sciences main function is to give people an excuse to be rude about anything outside their own discipline. I never hear or read any constructive critcism, just name calling or dismissive statements. I know it'll probably never end, you are free to say what you like. But I am not. Monks must refrain from wrong speech (so apologies if I've slipped), and I have probably sacrificed more than any scientist you know of to follow this path of inquiry. You said we're avoiding life but I disagree. Intoxicants, sex, all those other indulgences I gave up are means for avoiding reality for a time. We must even avoid daydreaming, which is another escape from reality. You seek truth in your way, I in mine. Perhaps one day others will see they are in fact the same thing.

Hi Sev.

Although my mindfulness practice isn't as strong as I'd currently wish, I find there are many levels of awareness.

One type of awareness I practice is to observe people I interact with in my personal and work life.

A common thing I observe amongst humans is a strong attachment to belief/conditioning.

I include myself in this observation.

Often, beliefs so powerful, even documented proof to the contrary is ignored.

I observe attachment to belief, to such levels, that neutral discussion can't occur.

The model referred to in Dharma is "delusion, aversion, & greed".

I suspect such conditioning is our biggest impediment to Awakening.

The practice has been laid out, and teachers can be found if the desire is there.

Fighting against our "delusion, aversion, & greed" is the reason why most will fall.

Some won't even look, as they already believe it is rubbish.

Others look, but their sloth/torpor stops them from practice.

Yet others will practice but the trappings of life impede the level of concentration required.

Yet again others may reach quite lofty heights only to be foiled by delusion (attachment to rigid ideas of Dharma).

If, somehow, the power of "greed, aversion, & delusion" were lifted from us, practing the 8 fold path could be relatively easy.

I guess removing the grip of "delusion, aversion, & greed" is easier said than done.

Contextually, I feel very fortunate that my conditioning attracts me to Dharma.

Edited March 1, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Some people think that the goal of Arahant (nibbana) is too difficult to reach in this lifetime....so often give up. To aim for the first step which is sotapanna and has to be passed anyway upon the way to Arahant is a much more achieveable goal and certainly possible in this lifetime.

Thanks Fred.

What % of ones practice do you recommend including the arm movements?

Did you find it to be a powerful aid to the level of awareness you achieve?