How Corrupt Is Thailand, Your Perception.

[JurgenG]

I've been living in Asia for more than 15 years, worked in Bangkok before being transferred to HK in 2007 but still with responsibilities in Thailand. We own a house in Bangkok. I drove in Thailand for more than 200,000 km (my car just reached 100,000 and it's the third one). I'm not the oldest expat in Bangkok but I didn't arrived yesterday either.

A few days ago, we were talking with friends who are also long time expats about corruption with the traffic police, immigration and other administrations

Our conclusion ? It's up to you ! You want to do the right thing ? People are happy to help. You want to cut the queue ? It has a cost.

I've been fined quite a lot. But never for something i didn't do.

And for you, what is your experience ?

[cornishcarlos]

It's corrupt from top to bottom..

How you deal with that corruption is what will make your time here worthwhile or a headache.

Don't think it will change in the near future as people are used to living with it.

Gotta love the food though

[Boyce]

99%

[kotsak]

FUBAR / SNAFU

[midasthailand]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

[JurgenG]

99%

FUBAR / SNAFU

Interesting choice of words.

Mind to develop your thinking ?

[kennedy]

One thing about Thailand, you don't have give it under the table. They happily take it over the top of the table.

[Scully]

I have told this story before but there is corruption we can't see.

Road to my rented house gets millions of baht yearly from head government official he then passes a % to a mate that knows a construction team, the mate takes a % and gives the job to the construction team, they then employs team of villages with wheelbarrows and a truck full of tar, all happy.

Asked why not just do the job properly once then no need to repeat this every year, the answer is "we will get no money next year if the road is not in disrepair" .

[simple1]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

At least in Australia the politicians and various government agencies are not ordering the killings of their political opponents, environmental activists, supporting extrajudicial killings of alleged criminals, not prosecuted for speaking out against the establishment etc. I guess their would be exceptions, but rare. All in all when comparing the impact of corruption on a society I prefer the western democracies and their usually transparent judicial processes.

Agree with the OP regards day to day living in Thailand. Fortunately yet to be stopped by police for extracting tea money

Edited March 1, 2013 by simple1

[Semper]

FUBAR / SNAFU

Are those some construction-worker terms?

[kennedy]

I have told this story before but there is corruption we can't see.

Road to my rented house gets millions of baht yearly from head g meovernment official he then passes a % to a mate that knows a construction team, the mate takes a % and gives the job to the construction team, they then employs team of villages with wheelbarrows and a truck full of tar, all happy.

Asked why not just do the job properly once then no need to repeat this every year, the answer is "we will get no money next year if the road is not in disrepair" .

I asked my wife why the road never gets fixed right.She gave same answer and you think no one sees it?

[NeverSure]

What happened to all of the money borrowed for flood control? It is in the issuing of bonds for major improvements where the money disappears.

What does it take to get a permit to build a condo? Who gets the big government contracts for infrastructure?

Corruption is massive.

[StreetCowboy]

When we tendered for government contracts, we were advised to include a provision to be abstracted. That's money taken from the Thai tax payers, passed to a Contractor who then illegally gives it to people in authority. Contractors helping the people in government steal from their tax payers. Fortunately, we did not win the work...

We didn't have to do that for work with private sector companies in Thailand, though to be fair, those were smaller projects.

SC

[cooked]

You guys may be missing the point. The problem in Thailand is the lack of rule by law, allowing corruption to flourish.

I'll be banned from Thaivisa if I mention my theory about why there is no rule of law here.

[OZEMADE]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

Dont forget to vote her out this year.

The corruption is here to stay, it will never be stamped out in this country. At least everyone knows where they stand this way.

You pay for what you get and you get what you pay for.

Edited March 1, 2013 by OZEMADE

[StreetCowboy]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

Dont forget to vote her out this year.

The corruption is here to stay, it will never be stamped out in this country. At least everyone knows where they stand this way.

You pay for what you get and you get what you pay for.

You get 85% or less of what you pay for.

Edited March 1, 2013 by StreetCowboy

[macksview]

at the bar last night my check bin was 20 baht over, nong noi was not up to expectation, corrupt country this.

seriously, love the stories from the old hands who have done legitimate businesses here and their trials,tribulations and sucess.

luckily, my own experience of the corruption in thailand has only been at the most low level.

[StreetCowboy]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

Dont forget to vote her out this year.

The corruption is here to stay, it will never be stamped out in this country. At least everyone knows where they stand this way.

You pay for what you get and you get what you pay for.

Look at it this way; with the money that's been skimmed off, they could've extended the Airport Rail Link to Don Muang as well as Suvanabhumi.

Think of the money that Thaksin took with him as an extra MRT Line, or a dozen hospitals, or a University.

Whenever you bung a traffic policeman a couple of hundred baht, just think "Splatter" in a crimson sort of colour

SC

[impulse]

You guys may be missing the point. The problem in Thailand is the lack of rule by law, allowing corruption to flourish.

I'll be banned from Thaivisa if I mention my theory about why there is no rule of law here.

You're mixing up rule of law and rule by law, which are 2 different concepts.

Rule by law is you sue people and toss them in jail for violating laws that everyone violates or nobody even knows about. You just prosecute and sue the ones you don't like.

Rule of law is everyone is held accountable to the same laws. Lawsuits and prosecutions are limited to those that actually break the laws- and nobody is exempt.

Way oversimplified, but I think the distinction is clear.

[wayned]

Here we go again another thread on corruption! You guys just don't get it! Corruption has been implanted and embedded in the culture for centuries. It is a way of life and if you ask many Thais they will say that it needs to stop, but deep down inside they they really don't want or expect it it change as it is how they have lived for generations and have no ambition for change let alone being able to change it.

[David48]

You get 85% or less of what you pay for.

That's about the same odds, 85%, as the Poker Machines in many countries.

Thailand compared to one big Poker Machine ... interesting ...

[aussiebebe]

I think it depends who you talk to. I've driven here for 6 years and never even been stopped by police, yet I have friends who bike and they are constantly bemoaning being fined - getting a car is a simple solution.
My other perception is informed by my Thai wife's family - that's given me direct insight into how Thais receive a stipend to vote the right way (around 500b) - they live in Bangkok, not a village and this has happened in all the elections since 2007 to my knowledge. Their reasoning is that were they not to accept it, someone else would keep it. Based on that, I'd say 99%, give or take.

[weegee]

You guys may be missing the point. The problem in Thailand is the lack of rule by law, allowing corruption to flourish.

I'll be banned from Thaivisa if I mention my theory about why there is no rule of law here.

Exactly cooked.....some know how rule of law sets....but cant comment..

[StreetCowboy]

I suppose from my perspective I look at corruption from the viewpoint:

- to what extent is my professional success determined by competency and good service to my clients and employers?

- to what extent do people do the job that they are employed for, to the best of their ability?

All the consequences - the poor roads, the deaths in night club fires, the victims of people-smuggling, the high taxes, the lack of opportunity, the poor standard of education, those are just fallout from the two issues above

SC

[wamberal]

To be honest, I find the level of corruption in Thailand a little easier to live with than the level of corruption in Australia! At least here everybody knows it goes on and makes adjustments to allow for it. In Australia we have a rotten to the core Prime Minister who has been implicated in nefarious dealings throughout her adult life surrounded by a team of ex union leaders who are in it for everything they can get out of it.

The difference is that the people involved in daily corruption here are poorly paid police officers and the ones running the corruption in Australia are (very) overpaid politicians. Julia Gillard is better paid than Barack Obama for gods sake and still she taints everything she touches.

Give me the "honest" corruption here over the type found in Australia and a lot of other supposedly clean countries.

What a bunch of drivel. A former Prime Minister is unable to return to Thailand because of pretty serious allegations of corruption. Corruption exists at all levels of Thai society. The police are just the little foot soldiers.

Gillard lives in a country with a very strong justice system. If she has ever done anything wrong, it would have been prosecuted long ago. Her home state, Victoria, where the most pathetic allegations are sourced, is governed by the Liberal Party, the sworn enemy of both the ALP and the union movement. Do you really think that the Victorian Police, and the courts system, the Attorney General, and so on, are all standing around, with their hands in the pockets, while Gillard goes free? Not to mention that the Liberal Party was in power federally from 1996 until 2007, for most of those years Gillard was a Labor Party front-bencher.

If you do, I have a nice Harbour Bridge you might like to buy, slightly used, but very beautiful and with nice views.

Edited March 1, 2013 by wamberal

[robblok]

I suppose from my perspective I look at corruption from the viewpoint:

- to what extent is my professional success determined by competency and good service to my clients and employers?

- to what extent do people do the job that they are employed for, to the best of their ability?

All the consequences - the poor roads, the deaths in night club fires, the victims of people-smuggling, the high taxes, the lack of opportunity, the poor standard of education, those are just fallout from the two issues above

SC

Finally some who understands it. I could not have said it better corruption reduces quality.

[SteeleJoe]

so many people look at the issue without sufficient knowledge, without thinking it through, with nothing but self -interest or a combination of all 3. I haven't the time, interest or energy to carefully construct a proper argument - especially since no one in their right mind will read a load of b****cks from me, but I will say this...

I'll begin with a disclaimer in the interest of fair play: I do NOT pretend to speak from a higher moral standpoint as I have no basis to. I live with a conscious hypocrisy on my part: in small ways I, like virtually everyone to a lesser or greater degree, perpetuate and benefit from corruption. I too have paid to get something done faster, to avoid a penalty or to fix a problem.

However, people who think that's what corruption is and all it is, have a very skewed view. 'We're just paying for service' or ''It's a fine for wrongdoing.'...that not only doesn't take into account what damage that seemingly win-win arrangement does, it also overlooks a MASSIVE portion of what sort corruption takes place and how let alone the damage it does.

Thailand will never approach being a just and democratic society without some semblance of Rule of Law. When you have a country where virtually ANY crime can be committed without commensurate penalty, if any at all, then you have no Rule of Law.

Thailand will never approach being a just and democratic society without being able to attract people with the right motives (in addition to the inevitable self interest that anyone will have) to politics, government service, the military and law enforcement. When you have a situation where people in service to the country must THEMSELVES pay corruption for their positions and continue to pay it to rise, but will do so because they will still come out ahead financially and even become wealthy - you will not attract people with the right motives. (Indeed those people will not be allowed to enter the circle).

Wait...I'm starting to go off on long rant and I wasn't going to do that (especially without organizing my thoughts first). Cutting to the chase:

People's quality of life is lessened because of corruption ( schools, roads, hospitals on and on). People's lives are LOST because of corruption. It does horrible damage to the society as a whole and affects everyone in important and tangible ways, not merely in abstract moral terms.

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Edited March 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[Forethat]

I suppose from my perspective I look at corruption from the viewpoint:

- to what extent is my professional success determined by competency and good service to my clients and employers?

- to what extent do people do the job that they are employed for, to the best of their ability?

All the consequences - the poor roads, the deaths in night club fires, the victims of people-smuggling, the high taxes, the lack of opportunity, the poor standard of education, those are just fallout from the two issues above

SC

Post of the year.

[wamberal]

SteeleJoe,

Probably the worst single effect of corruption, in many developing countries, is that it acts as a disincentive to foreign investment, which in turn means that economic growth (and especially the benefits that can flow from growth to the poorer people in society) is stifled.

The single biggest cause of poverty in the world today is a lack of business/trade/employment opportunities, and it is widely recognised that corruption is one of the biggest hurdles stopping those opportunities.

[SteeleJoe]

I suppose from my perspective I look at corruption from the viewpoint:

- to what extent is my professional success determined by competency and good service to my clients and employers?

- to what extent do people do the job that they are employed for, to the best of their ability?

All the consequences - the poor roads, the deaths in night club fires, the victims of people-smuggling, the high taxes, the lack of opportunity, the poor standard of education, those are just fallout from the two issues above

SC

Hadn't seen this post until now. As is often the case, this poster says what I would have. And as always, says it so much better (and more succinctly) than I ever could have.

Quality.

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