Poll: Do You Have A Local Health Insurance Or An International Insurance ?

[Youpi88]

Hi everyone,

I've read quite few posts lately on diverse forums, and it seems that many discussions mix local insurance and international insurance.

Very often people say for example that "they have Bupa"... but they do not precise whether it is Bupa Thailand or Bupa International, which are very different.

It makes me wonder what most people have here, a local plan (AXA Thailand, Bupa Thailand, etc...) or an international plan (Bupa International, Now Health, ACS-AMI, William Russell, April, etc....)?

What do you guys have ?

Cheers !

[TexasRanger]

International, very happy with it so far. (Apart from the cost of course) ;-)

Edited March 31, 2013 by TexasRanger

[thepanom]

April, there prices went up a lot in the last two years, but so far I know they are ok with payments, for me just once last year, no problem at all

[DavidChristensen]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in fact there could be a lot more at risk. If you are insured by a Thai licensed company then you know at least they are operating under some form of regulation and there is someone to act as an advocate for you (and other clients) if things go wrong. BUPA International is based in the global financial center of the Seychelles, for example - good luck if they get into trouble - wouldn't you rather be covered by BUPA in Thailand?

The more insidious thing is that the main proponents of 'international' health insurance plans are brokers or sales people based in Singapore, Hong Kong, China or wherever who sell to expats living in Thailand. And they are free to say whatever they want to try and close a sale - because they are not able to sell Thai licensed policies and can only sell offshore business - and because they as the salesperson are outside Thailand they are not accountable to Thai insurance regulation (or any Thai regulation) and because they are selling outside their own jurisdiction they fall outside the accountability of their own insurance regulator (and also any regulator for that matter).

By dealing with such people - and they can be very persuasive and give you great confidence - you are voluntarily stepping into what is effectively a free fire zone with no laws and no accountability - like the old concept of the 'high seas'. In this situation they can (and I can personally attest to the fact they do) substantially mislead people in order to make a sale. In fact downright lies, and blatant fraud can be carried out with impunity - if you are defrauded, who are you going to call? Where can you hold them accountable? The answer is nowehere.

I sure wouldn't expose myself to that risk - and in the end it's only the expat who knows they will be transferred fro one country to another regularly that needs international coverage - 95% of expats don't (Thai policies offer the same worldwide coverage in general as international policies do); there are a number of experienced and reputable brokers of non-life insurance to the Thai expat market and they can provide advice that is accountable to this legal jurisdiction from companies who offer cover essentially on a par with any international plans and they are right on your doorstep; in many cases English documentation is available - so it is beyond me why anyone would venture into the murky shark-infested waters of having anything to do with offshare sales people of any shape or description. It simply isn't worth the risk and there is no advantage (despite what they may say).

[Naam]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance
versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in
fact there could be a lot more at risk.

= absolut nonsense!

[gosompoi]

I use Thai insurance, in 5 years at total of four hospital visits with the most recent two weeks ago. The most recent 100% was picked up by insurance. 4 days, Private room and all care at no cost. Two children both born by C-section and a week stays each time, out of pocket cost less than 3,000 baht total combined. I feel there isn't the need for international insurance but selection of the hospital is important for the right quality of care.

[spidermike007]

I recently got an accident insurance/life insurance policy with ACE. Thai based. Under 14k baht per year, for under 60 years old. 500,000 baht in accident insurance, and it covers motorcycles. 5 million baht in term life insurance. Decided that was all I need. Takes care of me in the event of an accident, and takes care of my gal, in the event of my demise. Not too worried about the health insurance. Makes sense for me. A friend of mine did the research, and felt this was one of the best options out there.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Youpi88]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in fact there could be a lot more at risk. If you are insured by a Thai licensed company then you know at least they are operating under some form of regulation and there is someone to act as an advocate for you (and other clients) if things go wrong. BUPA International is based in the global financial center of the Seychelles, for example - good luck if they get into trouble - wouldn't you rather be covered by BUPA in Thailand?

The more insidious thing is that the main proponents of 'international' health insurance plans are brokers or sales people based in Singapore, Hong Kong, China or wherever who sell to expats living in Thailand. And they are free to say whatever they want to try and close a sale - because they are not able to sell Thai licensed policies and can only sell offshore business - and because they as the salesperson are outside Thailand they are not accountable to Thai insurance regulation (or any Thai regulation) and because they are selling outside their own jurisdiction they fall outside the accountability of their own insurance regulator (and also any regulator for that matter).

By dealing with such people - and they can be very persuasive and give you great confidence - you are voluntarily stepping into what is effectively a free fire zone with no laws and no accountability - like the old concept of the 'high seas'. In this situation they can (and I can personally attest to the fact they do) substantially mislead people in order to make a sale. In fact downright lies, and blatant fraud can be carried out with impunity - if you are defrauded, who are you going to call? Where can you hold them accountable? The answer is nowehere.

I sure wouldn't expose myself to that risk - and in the end it's only the expat who knows they will be transferred fro one country to another regularly that needs international coverage - 95% of expats don't (Thai policies offer the same worldwide coverage in general as international policies do); there are a number of experienced and reputable brokers of non-life insurance to the Thai expat market and they can provide advice that is accountable to this legal jurisdiction from companies who offer cover essentially on a par with any international plans and they are right on your doorstep; in many cases English documentation is available - so it is beyond me why anyone would venture into the murky shark-infested waters of having anything to do with offshare sales people of any shape or description. It simply isn't worth the risk and there is no advantage (despite what they may say).

I think your post is more about having a bad experience with a broker than whether to have a local or international plan.

You have obviously received bad advice from a non-legit broker, who sold you a (scam?) insurance.

This is a very unfortunate story, but honestly you can find bad sales people in every business out there, and I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the insurance is local or offshore.

Many international brokers are very well known, have a proper license (many locals don't), and sell international plans from reliable companies (Bupa, April, MSH, Aetna, Cigna, etc....).

As far as I know, these international companies fall under the regulator of their country of origin, in most cases England, USA, France, etc... I'd rather have to discuss a case in these countries than in Thailand...

Anyway, I think we're a bit off topic here, I just wanted to know who has a local insurance and who has an international one.

Thanks for the feedback though

[stevenl]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in fact there could be a lot more at risk. If you are insured by a Thai licensed company then you know at least they are operating under some form of regulation and there is someone to act as an advocate for you (and other clients) if things go wrong. BUPA International is based in the global financial center of the Seychelles, for example - good luck if they get into trouble - wouldn't you rather be covered by BUPA in Thailand?

The more insidious thing is that the main proponents of 'international' health insurance plans are brokers or sales people based in Singapore, Hong Kong, China or wherever who sell to expats living in Thailand. And they are free to say whatever they want to try and close a sale - because they are not able to sell Thai licensed policies and can only sell offshore business - and because they as the salesperson are outside Thailand they are not accountable to Thai insurance regulation (or any Thai regulation) and because they are selling outside their own jurisdiction they fall outside the accountability of their own insurance regulator (and also any regulator for that matter).

By dealing with such people - and they can be very persuasive and give you great confidence - you are voluntarily stepping into what is effectively a free fire zone with no laws and no accountability - like the old concept of the 'high seas'. In this situation they can (and I can personally attest to the fact they do) substantially mislead people in order to make a sale. In fact downright lies, and blatant fraud can be carried out with impunity - if you are defrauded, who are you going to call? Where can you hold them accountable? The answer is nowehere.

I sure wouldn't expose myself to that risk - and in the end it's only the expat who knows they will be transferred fro one country to another regularly that needs international coverage - 95% of expats don't (Thai policies offer the same worldwide coverage in general as international policies do); there are a number of experienced and reputable brokers of non-life insurance to the Thai expat market and they can provide advice that is accountable to this legal jurisdiction from companies who offer cover essentially on a par with any international plans and they are right on your doorstep; in many cases English documentation is available - so it is beyond me why anyone would venture into the murky shark-infested waters of having anything to do with offshare sales people of any shape or description. It simply isn't worth the risk and there is no advantage (despite what they may say).

I think your post is more about having a bad experience with a broker than whether to have a local or international plan.

You have obviously received bad advice from a non-legit broker, who sold you a (scam?) insurance.

This is a very unfortunate story, but honestly you can find bad sales people in every business out there, and I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the insurance is local or offshore.

Many international brokers are very well known, have a proper license (many locals don't), and sell international plans from reliable companies (Bupa, April, MSH, Aetna, Cigna, etc....).

As far as I know, these international companies fall under the regulator of their country of origin, in most cases England, USA, France, etc... I'd rather have to discuss a case in these countries than in Thailand...

Anyway, I think we're a bit off topic here, I just wanted to know who has a local insurance and who has an international one.

Thanks for the feedback though

A real poll might be a better idea, would give a much better overview and probably more results.

[Youpi88]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in fact there could be a lot more at risk. If you are insured by a Thai licensed company then you know at least they are operating under some form of regulation and there is someone to act as an advocate for you (and other clients) if things go wrong. BUPA International is based in the global financial center of the Seychelles, for example - good luck if they get into trouble - wouldn't you rather be covered by BUPA in Thailand?

The more insidious thing is that the main proponents of 'international' health insurance plans are brokers or sales people based in Singapore, Hong Kong, China or wherever who sell to expats living in Thailand. And they are free to say whatever they want to try and close a sale - because they are not able to sell Thai licensed policies and can only sell offshore business - and because they as the salesperson are outside Thailand they are not accountable to Thai insurance regulation (or any Thai regulation) and because they are selling outside their own jurisdiction they fall outside the accountability of their own insurance regulator (and also any regulator for that matter).

By dealing with such people - and they can be very persuasive and give you great confidence - you are voluntarily stepping into what is effectively a free fire zone with no laws and no accountability - like the old concept of the 'high seas'. In this situation they can (and I can personally attest to the fact they do) substantially mislead people in order to make a sale. In fact downright lies, and blatant fraud can be carried out with impunity - if you are defrauded, who are you going to call? Where can you hold them accountable? The answer is nowehere.

I sure wouldn't expose myself to that risk - and in the end it's only the expat who knows they will be transferred fro one country to another regularly that needs international coverage - 95% of expats don't (Thai policies offer the same worldwide coverage in general as international policies do); there are a number of experienced and reputable brokers of non-life insurance to the Thai expat market and they can provide advice that is accountable to this legal jurisdiction from companies who offer cover essentially on a par with any international plans and they are right on your doorstep; in many cases English documentation is available - so it is beyond me why anyone would venture into the murky shark-infested waters of having anything to do with offshare sales people of any shape or description. It simply isn't worth the risk and there is no advantage (despite what they may say).

I think your post is more about having a bad experience with a broker than whether to have a local or international plan.

You have obviously received bad advice from a non-legit broker, who sold you a (scam?) insurance.

This is a very unfortunate story, but honestly you can find bad sales people in every business out there, and I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that the insurance is local or offshore.

Many international brokers are very well known, have a proper license (many locals don't), and sell international plans from reliable companies (Bupa, April, MSH, Aetna, Cigna, etc....).

As far as I know, these international companies fall under the regulator of their country of origin, in most cases England, USA, France, etc... I'd rather have to discuss a case in these countries than in Thailand...

Anyway, I think we're a bit off topic here, I just wanted to know who has a local insurance and who has an international one.

Thanks for the feedback though

A real poll might be a better idea, would give a much better overview and probably more results.

Definitely ! But how do you embed a poll within a forum ?

[mania]

Definitely ! But how do you embed a poll within a forum ?

Click "Start A New Topic"

Just like you did to start this one.

In the upper right of the new topic window you will see

manage poll or something like that

Click it & it will be self explanatory from there

[Youpi88]

Definitely ! But how do you embed a poll within a forum ?

Click "Start A New Topic"

Just like you did to start this one.

In the upper right of the new topic window you will see

manage poll or something like that

Click it & it will be self explanatory from there

Thanks a lot, I will give it a try right away !

[DavidChristensen]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance

versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in

fact there could be a lot more at risk.

= absolut nonsense!

Absolut - as in the vodka ... or absolute - as in total, complete, or extreme ... like 'totally devoid of value', 'completely unhelpful', or 'extremely facile'? At least I went on to qualify that comment and explain the rationale and it pains me not to think you may have a different opinion, albeit one that you may be reticent to share.

But your response was truly illuminating on an issue that has long troubled me, and that is how it is possible to amass more than 27,000 posts to a forum ... given an average of 15 minutes to read, comprehend, then write a sensible and lucid forum posting that would mean even over a period of ten years spending 675 hours every year ... that's 2 hours a day, 24/7 for a decade ... to reach that sort of volume and I just could not understand how something like this was possible. Now I understand.

[stevenl]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance

versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in

fact there could be a lot more at risk.

= absolut nonsense!

Absolut - as in the vodka ... or absolute - as in total, complete, or extreme ... like 'totally devoid of value', 'completely unhelpful', or 'extremely facile'? At least I went on to qualify that comment and explain the rationale and it pains me not to think you may have a different opinion, albeit one that you may be reticent to share.

But your response was truly illuminating on an issue that has long troubled me, and that is how it is possible to amass more than 27,000 posts to a forum ... given an average of 15 minutes to read, comprehend, then write a sensible and lucid forum posting that would mean even over a period of ten years spending 675 hours every year ... that's 2 hours a day, 24/7 for a decade ... to reach that sort of volume and I just could not understand how something like this was possible. Now I understand.

So what risks are eliminated by using a local broker? And please don't come with 'consumer protection' like you did in another thread today.

[Satcommlee]

International, very happy with it so far. (Apart from the cost of course) ;-)

My thoughts exactly..

[DavidChristensen]

There is very little advantage in international/offshore insurance

versus using a Thai registered company to provide the cover - and in

fact there could be a lot more at risk.

= absolut nonsense!

Absolut - as in the vodka ... or absolute - as in total, complete, or extreme ... like 'totally devoid of value', 'completely unhelpful', or 'extremely facile'? At least I went on to qualify that comment and explain the rationale and it pains me not to think you may have a different opinion, albeit one that you may be reticent to share.

But your response was truly illuminating on an issue that has long troubled me, and that is how it is possible to amass more than 27,000 posts to a forum ... given an average of 15 minutes to read, comprehend, then write a sensible and lucid forum posting that would mean even over a period of ten years spending 675 hours every year ... that's 2 hours a day, 24/7 for a decade ... to reach that sort of volume and I just could not understand how something like this was possible. Now I understand.

So what risks are eliminated by using a local broker? And please don't come with 'consumer protection' like you did in another thread today.

That's a reasonable question so off the top of my head here are the things a local broker has to follow, consider, be constrained by that don't apply to an offshore broker or intermediary:

- posting a minimum level of capital to minimize solvency risk

- ensuring officers and Directors must meet 'fit and proper' criteria

- providing monthly returns to the regulator to confirm ongoing capital adequacy

- employing only suitably qualified employees

- must carry adequate professional indemnity insurance

- required adhere to the requirements and code of conduct set out in the insurance regulator legislation

- adhere to the normal market regulations regarding what constitutes deceptive practices, fraud etc (Thailand is far from ideal in these areas but at least there is some legal framework which is better than nothing)

- be subject to the complaints procedures, directions and remedial instructions of the regulator if guidelines are breached

- if the business employs an expat, meet the necessary requirements for work permit - which presumably is something the expat does not wish to have rescinded

This amounts to having a high degree of transparency as well as accountability with the penalty for misconduct likely to include cancellation of the expat's work permit and instruction to leave the country - which would probably be a financially crippling blow.

None of these apply to a broker or intermediary that is located outside Thailand when they are dealing with Thai residents.

Some people may scoff at the level of seriousness these issues are dealt with in Thailand compared with some developed western markets. But I think in reality these issues are a lot more advanced and seriously treated than most would expect, and while it will never stamp out bad behavior it sure lowers the risk substantially - and my view is dealing with someone who falls under these requirements is vastly preferable to dealing with someone in a different country who is actually subject to none if these and you are totally dependent upon their word, with no external scrutiny or accountability.

I hope this is a reasonable answer to a fair question.

[PhuketdashScuba]

= absolut nonsense!

Absolut - as in the vodka ... or absolute - as in total, complete, or extreme ... like 'totally devoid of value', 'completely unhelpful', or 'extremely facile'? At least I went on to qualify that comment and explain the rationale and it pains me not to think you may have a different opinion, albeit one that you may be reticent to share.

But your response was truly illuminating on an issue that has long troubled me, and that is how it is possible to amass more than 27,000 posts to a forum ... given an average of 15 minutes to read, comprehend, then write a sensible and lucid forum posting that would mean even over a period of ten years spending 675 hours every year ... that's 2 hours a day, 24/7 for a decade ... to reach that sort of volume and I just could not understand how something like this was possible. Now I understand.

So what risks are eliminated by using a local broker? And please don't come with 'consumer protection' like you did in another thread today.

That's a reasonable question so off the top of my head here are the things a local broker has to follow, consider, be constrained by that don't apply to an offshore broker or intermediary:

- posting a minimum level of capital to minimize solvency risk

- ensuring officers and Directors must meet 'fit and proper' criteria

- providing monthly returns to the regulator to confirm ongoing capital adequacy

- employing only suitably qualified employees

- must carry adequate professional indemnity insurance

- required adhere to the requirements and code of conduct set out in the insurance regulator legislation

- adhere to the normal market regulations regarding what constitutes deceptive practices, fraud etc (Thailand is far from ideal in these areas but at least there is some legal framework which is better than nothing)

- be subject to the complaints procedures, directions and remedial instructions of the regulator if guidelines are breached

- if the business employs an expat, meet the necessary requirements for work permit - which presumably is something the expat does not wish to have rescinded

This amounts to having a high degree of transparency as well as accountability with the penalty for misconduct likely to include cancellation of the expat's work permit and instruction to leave the country - which would probably be a financially crippling blow.

None of these apply to a broker or intermediary that is located outside Thailand when they are dealing with Thai residents.

Some people may scoff at the level of seriousness these issues are dealt with in Thailand compared with some developed western markets. But I think in reality these issues are a lot more advanced and seriously treated than most would expect, and while it will never stamp out bad behavior it sure lowers the risk substantially - and my view is dealing with someone who falls under these requirements is vastly preferable to dealing with someone in a different country who is actually subject to none if these and you are totally dependent upon their word, with no external scrutiny or accountability.

I hope this is a reasonable answer to a fair question.

Sounds good in theory, but as I mentioned already: please don't come with 'consumer protection', because there is no way this is giving the consumer any form of protection here in Thailand.

Plus of course this statement is based on nothing: "dealing with someone who falls under these requirements is vastly

preferable to dealing with someone in a different country who is actually subject to none if these and you are totally dependent upon

their word, with no external scrutiny or accountability", especially since you mention yourself: "Some people may scoff at the level of seriousness these issues are dealt with in Thailand compared with some developed western markets."

[DavidChristensen]

= absolut nonsense!

Absolut - as in the vodka ... or absolute - as in total, complete, or extreme ... like 'totally devoid of value', 'completely unhelpful', or 'extremely facile'? At least I went on to qualify that comment and explain the rationale and it pains me not to think you may have a different opinion, albeit one that you may be reticent to share.

But your response was truly illuminating on an issue that has long troubled me, and that is how it is possible to amass more than 27,000 posts to a forum ... given an average of 15 minutes to read, comprehend, then write a sensible and lucid forum posting that would mean even over a period of ten years spending 675 hours every year ... that's 2 hours a day, 24/7 for a decade ... to reach that sort of volume and I just could not understand how something like this was possible. Now I understand.

So what risks are eliminated by using a local broker? And please don't come with 'consumer protection' like you did in another thread today.

That's a reasonable question so off the top of my head here are the things a local broker has to follow, consider, be constrained by that don't apply to an offshore broker or intermediary:

- posting a minimum level of capital to minimize solvency risk

- ensuring officers and Directors must meet 'fit and proper' criteria

- providing monthly returns to the regulator to confirm ongoing capital adequacy

- employing only suitably qualified employees

- must carry adequate professional indemnity insurance

- required adhere to the requirements and code of conduct set out in the insurance regulator legislation

- adhere to the normal market regulations regarding what constitutes deceptive practices, fraud etc (Thailand is far from ideal in these areas but at least there is some legal framework which is better than nothing)

- be subject to the complaints procedures, directions and remedial instructions of the regulator if guidelines are breached

- if the business employs an expat, meet the necessary requirements for work permit - which presumably is something the expat does not wish to have rescinded

This amounts to having a high degree of transparency as well as accountability with the penalty for misconduct likely to include cancellation of the expat's work permit and instruction to leave the country - which would probably be a financially crippling blow.

None of these apply to a broker or intermediary that is located outside Thailand when they are dealing with Thai residents.

Some people may scoff at the level of seriousness these issues are dealt with in Thailand compared with some developed western markets. But I think in reality these issues are a lot more advanced and seriously treated than most would expect, and while it will never stamp out bad behavior it sure lowers the risk substantially - and my view is dealing with someone who falls under these requirements is vastly preferable to dealing with someone in a different country who is actually subject to none if these and you are totally dependent upon their word, with no external scrutiny or accountability.

I hope this is a reasonable answer to a fair question.

Sounds good in theory, but as I mentioned already: please don't come with 'consumer protection', because there is no way this is giving the consumer any form of protection here in Thailand.

Plus of course this statement is based on nothing: "dealing with someone who falls under these requirements is vastly

preferable to dealing with someone in a different country who is actually subject to none if these and you are totally dependent upon

their word, with no external scrutiny or accountability", especially since you mention yourself: "Some people may scoff at the level of seriousness these issues are dealt with in Thailand compared with some developed western markets."

Nobody would pretend the regulation of market conduct in Thailand is perfect - my point is that it's better than most would think, and vastly superior to none at all - points you have consigned to the waste basket.

I accept you have strong views that discount the points I have made but all I am doing is answering your question rationally. For me the answers I have given are meaningful because they reflect how I go about my work and for many years it has troubled me how so many expats across Asia are misinformed or downright ripped off by any number of charlatans posing as financial advisers, and I think its important to try and point out the ways people can protect themselves from this danger.

You are entitled to take a cynical view - but the fact remains that an offshore intermediary is literally free from any of these restraints, which provides the client with no protection and no redress and why would someone place themselves in such a vulnerable position?

[stevenl]

Nothing to do with a cynical view, simply realistic. If an insurance broker gives wrong advice there is simply no consumer protection here (which I don't mind BTW).

Excellent to hear you're working differently, I might contact you in the future.