Amnesty 'outrage' At Saudi Paralysis Sentence

[Joe Mamma]

The law seems to give instant karma to the perpetrator!

[Naam]

"The law of qisas, or retribution, in Saudi Arabia means his victim can demand that he suffers exactly the same punishment as he caused."

It is the victim that is requiring the punishment.

Its barbaric, and ultra primitive by western standards

But it is the law.

Qr'anic law based on the Bible's "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

No. Try Hammurabi's code.

Yes the Old Testament of the Isrealites does indeed express such sentiments, however,it is tempered by the commandment to show mercy and compassion. Mercy is a commandment upon the Hebrews. It is a shame that a man as knowledgeable as you is unaware that Talmudic law incorporates discussion and the evolution of law. Even, a simple agnostic like me with my limited Church of England education took some basic religious studies back in the day. Please do not lay the brutal primitive behaviours of your friends in Saudi Arabia at the feet of the jew people or Christians.

try to educate yourself by comparing when Hammurabi's code was "published" with the "timely" origins of the Old Testament. you are only off by a couple of millenia!

by the way, much more "brutal and primitive" behaviours where applied in Europe (and elsewhere) only a few centuries ago as far as punishment of criminals are concerned.

[maidu]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

[briboy]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

bet he never did it again though

[rgs2001uk]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

That story is utter BS, whoever told you that had either never been in SA, or was pulling your leg.

[jocko]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

That story is utter BS, whoever told you that had either never been in SA, or was pulling your leg.

I don't know if that story is true or not but here is a true story.

I worked in the Oman in the 80s and in a hotel in Salalah a rich Omania had his Gold Rolex stolen from his bedroom they caught the thief who was from the Philippines they cut her hand of a deported her all within a couple of weeks.

And don't forget in the late 70s the Death of the Princess events in Saudi.

[ragamuffin]

It being the law doesn't make it right.

[uptheos]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

That story is utter BS, whoever told you that had either never been in SA, or was pulling your leg.

And don't forget in the late 70s the Death of the Princess events in Saudi.

For those who don't know .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200864/Saudi-princess-facing-death-penalty-adultery-given-secret-UK-asylum.html

In the same article.

Two years ago, a Saudi woman was sentenced to 200 lashes and six months jail after being gang-raped.

She offended society's expectations by getting into a car with an ex-boyfriend, unchaperoned.

The woman and the ex-boyfriend were then seized by seven men and both raped.

She was only pardoned after an international outcry.

200 lashes and 6 months in jail for being gang raped is a sick society indeed.

[Farma]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

I worked with an old but wise in the western ways Mattawa for many years. We were discussing a hand chop that had occurred where the thief had an ICU ambulance on standby to transport him and his hand straight to the local military hospital to have his hand reattached after the chop.

He explained that hands aren't chopped for simple thefts. There are levels of theft and it normally requires 3 cases of break and enter type thefts before a hand is chopped.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

"The law of qisas, or retribution, in Saudi Arabia means his victim can demand that he suffers exactly the same punishment as he caused."

It is the victim that is requiring the punishment.

Its barbaric, and ultra primitive by western standards

But it is the law.

Qr'anic law based on the Bible's "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

No. Try Hammurabi's code.

Yes the Old Testament of the Isrealites does indeed express such sentiments, however,it is tempered by the commandment to show mercy and compassion. Mercy is a commandment upon the Hebrews. It is a shame that a man as knowledgeable as you is unaware that Talmudic law incorporates discussion and the evolution of law. Even, a simple agnostic like me with my limited Church of England education took some basic religious studies back in the day. Please do not lay the brutal primitive behaviours of your friends in Saudi Arabia at the feet of the jew people or Christians.

try to educate yourself by comparing when Hammurabi's code was "published" with the "timely" origins of the Old Testament. you are only off by a couple of millenia!

by the way, much more "brutal and primitive" behaviours where applied in Europe (and elsewhere) only a few centuries ago as far as punishment of criminals are concerned.

Yep. Gays and adulteresses were singled out for especially horrifying and primitive torture. Mechanisms of depraved, sociopathic minds (incapable of feeling anyone else's pain but their own) were inserted into their respective - offending - entry point and cork-screwed until the criminals slowly bled to death (criminals who were guilty of the crime of acting on the natural desires instilled into them by virtue of God's Intelligent Design and/or five million years of natural selection [whichever rows your boat, but it's all the more telling if you think about those who pretend to subscribe to the former; they're the ones who spray the acid of God's misogyny onto innocent children and God's murderous rage onto naturally-born gay men for feeling the way God made them feel]).

Sociopathic Christians fool a lot of people with their emotional sentiment but almost all wars are Christian wars and if you look closely at Luke 14:33 you'll understand why that is the case. Christian Compassion? Ahem. Were it not for that offensive substitute emotion for empathy, a great many more humans would be naturally and Selfishly humane.

Then again, torturing threats to the sanctity of religious marriage was the law (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean)? jamhar, care to extrapolate on what you mean by pointing out that power makes illegal laws to Control their slaves? Do you think laws are worth paying attention to when they are not humane and therefore against The Law?

[Thorgal]

Naam, on 04 Apr 2013 - 02:24, said:

geriatrickid, on 03 Apr 2013 - 14:50, said:

Naam, on 03 Apr 2013 - 05:34, said:

jamhar, on 03 Apr 2013 - 05:19, said:

"The law of qisas, or retribution, in Saudi Arabia means his victim can demand that he suffers exactly the same punishment as he caused."

It is the victim that is requiring the punishment.

Its barbaric, and ultra primitive by western standards

But it is the law.

Qr'anic law based on the Bible's "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

No. Try Hammurabi's code.

Yes the Old Testament of the Isrealites does indeed express such sentiments, however,it is tempered by the commandment to show mercy and compassion. Mercy is a commandment upon the Hebrews. It is a shame that a man as knowledgeable as you is unaware that Talmudic law incorporates discussion and the evolution of law. Even, a simple agnostic like me with my limited Church of England education took some basic religious studies back in the day. Please do not lay the brutal primitive behaviours of your friends in Saudi Arabia at the feet of the jew people or Christians.

try to educate yourself by comparing when Hammurabi's code was "published" with the "timely" origins of the Old Testament. you are only off by a couple of millenia!

by the way, much more "brutal and primitive" behaviours where applied in Europe (and elsewhere) only a few centuries ago as far as punishment of criminals are concerned.

In the legal code written by Hammurabi (year 1792 BCE), the principle of exact reciprocity is very clearly used. If a person caused the death of another person, the killer would be put to death (Hammurabi's code, §230).

The law code in Exodus 20:22-23:33 has notable similarities in both content and structure with the Laws of Hammurabi. These influences serve to reinforce the conclusion that the Book of Exodus originated in the exiled Jewish community of 6th-century Babylon, but not all the sources are Mesopotamian.

The Qur'an mentions the "eye for an eye" concept as being ordained for the Children of Israel (Torah).

“In the Torah We prescribed for them a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, an equal wound for a wound: if anyone forgoes this out of charity, it will serve as atonement for his bad deeds. Those who do not judge according to what God has revealed are doing grave wrong.” (Qurʾān 5:45)

The principle of Lex talionis in Islam is Qasas as mentioned in (Qur'an 2:178) and didn't really originated from the Old Testament as you mentioned.

You can allways tell me that I'm wrong, but The Books aren't...

Edited April 4, 2013 by Thorgal

[maidu]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

That story is utter BS, whoever told you that had either never been in SA, or was pulling your leg.

I'd rather have them pull my leg, than chop it off. Here's another one, more recent: A fire at a girls' school (at least they allow girls to get educated in S.A.), Girls are desperately trying to escape the fire, but can't get out through a locked door in back of school. Firemen show up. Islamist extremist man or men block the firefighters from breaking open the door, claiming "grown men should never be allowed near young females" (or some horseshit to that effect). No girls escape - they all die, inches from fresh air.

[rgs2001uk]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

That story is utter BS, whoever told you that had either never been in SA, or was pulling your leg.

I'd rather have them pull my leg, than chop it off. Here's another one, more recent: A fire at a girls' school (at least they allow girls to get educated in S.A.), Girls are desperately trying to escape the fire, but can't get out through a locked door in back of school. Firemen show up. Islamist extremist man or men block the firefighters from breaking open the door, claiming "grown men should never be allowed near young females" (or some horseshit to that effect). No girls escape - they all die, inches from fresh air.

The above isnt a story, its a true fact, believe it was Riyadh about 6 or 7 years ago.

The "muttawa" or religious police wouldnt let the girls out because their heads werent covered or some other such BS.

[rgs2001uk]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

That story is utter BS, whoever told you that had either never been in SA, or was pulling your leg.

I don't know if that story is true or not but here is a true story.

I worked in the Oman in the 80s and in a hotel in Salalah a rich Omania had his Gold Rolex stolen from his bedroom they caught the thief who was from the Philippines they cut her hand of a deported her all within a couple of weeks.

And don't forget in the late 70s the Death of the Princess events in Saudi.

Anyone who has spent any time in The ME is well aware of the reputation the Pinoys have.

BTW, well done the Omanis.

[SteeleJoe]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

That story is utter BS, whoever told you that had either never been in SA, or was pulling your leg.

I'd rather have them pull my leg, than chop it off. Here's another one, more recent: A fire at a girls' school (at least they allow girls to get educated in S.A.), Girls are desperately trying to escape the fire, but can't get out through a locked door in back of school. Firemen show up. Islamist extremist man or men block the firefighters from breaking open the door, claiming "grown men should never be allowed near young females" (or some horseshit to that effect). No girls escape - they all die, inches from fresh air.

That was in Mecca, in 2002.

Not sure about the details of your version (I'm an avid student of Islamist extremism so I remember a lot about that one but not everything.) what I do know was there were reports that the Mutaween (the morals police, for lack of a better term) prevented girls from escaping and prevented rescuers from going in. Supposedly they even sent girls back into the building - because they were not dressed properly and because physical contact between them and rescuers could be sexually exciting.

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[rgs2001uk]

^^^^^, I apologise, xxxx where does the time go, seems like only yesterday, my memory is shot.

http://www.islamawareness.net/MiddleEast/Saudi/fire.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fire

From what I remember, even the Saudis were outraged, if I remember correctly, isnt the religious training school for these muttawa in Riyadh?

Edited April 4, 2013 by metisdead

[SteeleJoe]

Rubbish. Have you ever lived there?

And the West is just so wonderful, crime free and just. I bet the bankers in Islamic countries won't fiddle and cheat to inflate their bonuses, and then whine for bail outs and big pay offs. They know what the consequences would be.

Imagine if all the bent Western bankers had their assets seized - they'd know how the poor Cypriots are feeling.

Yes, paralysing someone seems barbaric. But that has been the consequence his victim has to live with.

Laws are meant to bring rule and deter the crime. The West has moved too far in the other way - criminals are shown sympathy and receive more help than victims. All to convince us we live in a just and modern, fair society. Perhaps others may not want the West's idea of paradise.

Let see. I've never lived there but I do know that they do and have financed and perpetuated radical Islamist groups and terrorism for decades. I do know a fair bit about Wahhabism. And I don't think what he said, as extreme and subjective as some of it was, is rubbish.

Your stuff about the west is just straw men and relativist nonsense and non sequitur.

As for your dismissal of civil rights and the norms of justice that have evolved over centuries all over the world...well, it says a lot about you even aside from your impassioned excuses for the Saudis.

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[Naam]

It brings to mind the story (purportedly true) of the British woman in S.A. who caught the young son of her husband's valet, stealing a bit of money which was laying on a dresser. She told the boy to go and report himself to the local constable. An hour later, the boy returns without his right hand. The woman was aghast.

"an hour later"...the Fairy Queen granted them the wish to live happily ever after. i wonder what the IQ of people is who believe that kind of nonsense.

[spidermike007]

Saudi Arabia is one of the most primitive societies on the planet. They have not progressed past the 14th century. They are the true enemy of the west, with their continued secret support of terrorism, and their radical Wahhabi faith. It may take hundreds of years to incorporate them into the world community. Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Rubbish. Have you ever lived there?

And the West is just so wonderful, crime free and just. I bet the bankers in Islamic countries won't fiddle and cheat to inflate their bonuses, and then whine for bail outs and big pay offs. They know what the consequences would be.

Imagine if all the bent Western bankers had their assets seized - they'd know how the poor Cypriots are feeling.

Yes, paralysing someone seems barbaric. But that has been the consequence his victim has to live with.

Laws are meant to bring rule and deter the crime. The West has moved too far in the other way - criminals are shown sympathy and receive more help than victims. All to convince us we live in a just and modern, fair society. Perhaps others may not want the West's idea of paradise.

Thanks for the offer. But, I will decline. Living in that hellhole would be worse than a prison sentence. I have zero respect for their rule of Sharia law, zero respect for the Wahhabi faith, and zero respect for the family of King Abdullah. So, as you can see I am not a big fan of oppressive regimes who are populated by men with such low self esteem, that their women's faces cannot be seen by others, nor can they drive, go out on their own, hang out with their girlfriends in public, without a male escort, etc. Barbarism. 14th century nonsense. Neanderthal politics, and cro magnum maturity. No thanks. The west is not perfect, but women at least are treated like humans, and not chattel. Glad you like the place. Go on defending it all you want. The forum was not about how imperfect the west was, by the way.

[geriatrickid]

"The law of qisas, or retribution, in Saudi Arabia means his victim can demand that he suffers exactly the same punishment as he caused."

It is the victim that is requiring the punishment.

Its barbaric, and ultra primitive by western standards

But it is the law.

Qr'anic law based on the Bible's "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

No. Try Hammurabi's code.

Yes the Old Testament of the Isrealites does indeed express such sentiments, however,it is tempered by the commandment to show mercy and compassion. Mercy is a commandment upon the Hebrews. It is a shame that a man as knowledgeable as you is unaware that Talmudic law incorporates discussion and the evolution of law. Even, a simple agnostic like me with my limited Church of England education took some basic religious studies back in the day. Please do not lay the brutal primitive behaviours of your friends in Saudi Arabia at the feet of the jew people or Christians.

try to educate yourself by comparing when Hammurabi's code was "published" with the "timely" origins of the Old Testament. you are only off by a couple of millenia!

by the way, much more "brutal and primitive" behaviours where applied in Europe (and elsewhere) only a few centuries ago as far as punishment of criminals are concerned.

The issue here is not what forms of barbaric tortures europeans inflicted on each other centuries ago. We are dealing with 2013. By your logic, I should consider all Germans to be savage barbarians because in 1945 they were still bbqing people.

Countries have evolved and advanced. German kids today wouldn't have anything to do with the brutality of past generations. Nor is the issue the Old Testament or Christianity. The fact of the matter is that Israel which lives under the Old testament doesn't have capital punishment, nor does it practice eye for an eye justice. That should be a tip off for you that some societies advance. The issue remains the Saudi's penchant for savagery and barbaric practices. if they didn't have oil. they would be treated like the primitive society it is. Don't you find it odd that Qatar and the UAE which also have sharia law, do not find it necessary to be as savage as Saudi Arabia?

[Scott]

Off topic post deleted.

[jamhar]

Yep. Gays and adulteresses were singled out for especially horrifying and primitive torture. Mechanisms of depraved, sociopathic minds (incapable of feeling anyone else's pain but their own) were inserted into their respective - offending - entry point and cork-screwed until the criminals slowly bled to death (criminals who were guilty of the crime of acting on the natural desires instilled into them by virtue of God's Intelligent Design and/or five million years of natural selection [whichever rows your boat, but it's all the more telling if you think about those who pretend to subscribe to the former; they're the ones who spray the acid of God's misogyny onto innocent children and God's murderous rage onto naturally-born gay men for feeling the way God made them feel]).

Sociopathic Christians fool a lot of people with their emotional sentiment but almost all wars are Christian wars and if you look closely at Luke 14:33 you'll understand why that is the case. Christian Compassion? Ahem. Were it not for that offensive substitute emotion for empathy, a great many more humans would be naturally and Selfishly humane.

Then again, torturing threats to the sanctity of religious marriage was the law (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean)? jamhar, care to extrapolate on what you mean by pointing out that power makes illegal laws to Control their slaves? Do you think laws are worth paying attention to when they are not humane and therefore against The Law?

"jamhar, care to extrapolate on what you mean by pointing out that power makes illegal laws to Control their slaves?"

Answer

No,

but i'm sure you'll elaborate.

I was just point out that the perp knew what justice system he lived under, and knew or should have know what the possible punishment would be. I was also pointing out that it wasn't the saudi government that imposed this punishment, but the victim wishes. That is their law.

Edited April 6, 2013 by jamhar

[SteeleJoe]

I was just point out that the perp knew what justice system he lived under, and knew or should have know what the possible punishment would be. I was also pointing out that it wasn't the saudi government that imposed this punishment, but the victim wishes. That is their law.

Your first point by extension means that any and all punishments anywhere should not be considered excessive or unjust or "cruel and unusual" as long as said punishments are known to the citizenry. Think about that.

Your second point is a meaningless distinction and ultimately fallacious - the government (the judiciary) IS imposing the punishment. The fact that it does so in line with the victim's wishes makes it only more barbaric - when victims get to determine what punishment the perpetrator receives, what sort of civilization is that? An archaic and perverse one to my mind and, I dare say, to the minds of generations of citizens glad for the progress made over centuries.

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