Electrical Help

[doglover]

Thanks you guys - I am an electricity layman and I appreciate all your practical help that takes account of my Laymaness!!! So what do I do I can assure you that as far as I can ascertain every outlet is correctly wired. How can I say this well 1. I told the sparks that it was imperative that he followed the correct colour wiring procedures. 2. I bought an extension plug (4 sockets) from homepro and it has two lights on it red and green if the red one lights the plug (as far as I can ascertain has reversed polarity in the green one lights all OK if both light NO Earth I'm pretty sure that this crude tester works because he wired one socket the wrong way and the light showed red I told him to rewire it and he did and the light showed green. I have tested every socket with this lead and they all showed green. So I am reasonably confident there is not reversed neutral live in the system. All I want to do is to check that he has not bypassed the RCBO and to be honest after yesterdays trip and todays test (which I accept was dangerous - but isn't that why we have RCD's RCBO's etc) I think it is working. If you have any other suggestions as to what I can do please let me know (and unless you instruct me otherwise I will when I have time between fitting the bathrooms and kitchens and curtains redo the trip test (but I have do be honest i don't understand how a lamp plugged in at the same time will give us more info). Once again everybody thank you for your help - you are all invited to the housewarming - NO PUN INTENDED

The idea of the lamp is not to provide more info but to provide more safety. A shorted circuit could lead to explosive power causing burns and/or blindness. So this should be left to the professionals. When using the lamp there is a resistive load which will simply light up and stay lit if rcd and/or mcb does not function as expected (tripping the circuit). If you short the circuit with no resistance (like with a cord end that has the live and neutral hardwired together, or the neutral and earth hardwired in the cord end and reversed polarity in the receptacle) and the rcd and/or mcb does not function as expected) you could have the 'nasty scenario'.

This is certainly not a shot at Forkinhades, as he knows what he is doing. But laymen could make an error with the process and suffer sever consequences is all.

I understand your lack of faith in simply pushing the test button to see the main breaker trip and feeling all is well. I would want further downstream testing as well for peace of mind.

So if you connect the lamp L-E in a receptacle with your RCBO actively protecting your installation it should trip immediately. Leave the light connected in receptacle. De-activate the RCD portion via the switch and re-energize the breaker. Lamp should light up and stay lit. Unplug light from receptacle. Be sure to re-activate the RCD portion of the RCBO!

You have now verified that that your RCBO is working and that your ground wire is also connected to earth, another good thing to feel sure of.

I hope this helps your dilemma from being lost in the technical crossfire. If it doesn't just keep asking.

[doglover]

^^^^

Of course this just verifies basic operation of RCBO and a connection to ground. It does not compare to professional verification with professional equipment. If you want to go deeper with it I think you know who you might want to PM (not me, I only have a 15W lamp and a cheap Chinese meter).

[Negita43]

Thanks doglover. yes I am afraid a couple of others seem to gone off down the anorak route (not that I am ungrateful for their help but what they are talking about now on my original post is way above my head).

Just one observation and question on what you say:

Observation - I am not unhappy with the main test But the original post was about it not working with a switch on the RCBO in the on position This has now been resolved by crossy who after reading the manual says the 'ON' means bypass the RCBO!!!

With the RCBO switch in the off position the test button trips the main (switch no 1 in my pic in a previous post)BUT not the RCBO So now I am just trying to understand how to test the RCBO part.

Clearly, my test as reported in a previous post has generated a lot of - well I can't think of an appropriate word but it sure has generated a lot of it.

So here is a simple question

I have lots of twin sockets so If I plug in a 15watt lamp with a modern energy saving bulb and a two pin plug into one half of the socket and If I wire the three pin plug I used before N - E (ie twisting the neutral and earth (black and red) together and taping and plug this into the other half of the twin socket AFTER the lamp is plugged in. Is that a satisfactory process

[Crossy]

Negita. Please don't insult professionals who are trying to help you by calling them 'anoraks', admittedly we went a bit off-topic (what threads don't).

Which part of "NEVER, EVER, EVER plug any form of short (even N-E) into a live outlet." was unclear! As myself and later Forky along with doglover suggested there is a real (albeit small) potential for an explosive result.

Connect a regular 15W lamp (low energy would probably do although I've never tried it) between L and E in a 3-pin plug, put the lamp in a box if you worry about it going bang (it won't). If you want to go fancy use a switch as well.

Plug it in and turn on (if you used a switch), it should pull the RCD immediately, if the lamp lights or the RCD does not trip you have a problem.

You can verify your plug connection is correct by switching your RCD to 'bypass' in which case the lamp should light (this is where I'm not sure a low energy would do the trick).

An easy and safe check of your RCD and exactly what doglover is suggesting.

I'm still a little concerned that your 'test' button appears to open the main breaker.

By the way, BLACK is LIVE so your proposed test is shorting live and earth (probably as we don't really know how your lead is actually wired), something you really don't want to do.

As an aside, I suggest you go out and buy a simple DMM (digital multimeter) and a neon screwdriver, neither will break the bank, both are available in Tesco. With these you can perform a myriad of simple electrical checks (not least of which would be checking your RCD test plug is wired correctly).

[Forkinhades]

In the UK, any new installation has to be tested, and the test results given the local electricity company before they energise the system.

BUT TiT, therefore you can do what you want it seems.

All points have been covered and it seems to going round in circles. So if you do not want pay for a profesional to do the test, may I suggest another very good load you can put across L-E, N-E, and that be YOU

Seriously this IS dangerous stuff, and really should be left to the experts.

Take a look here at a handy socket tester available in Thailand http://thailand.rs-online.com/web/p/mains-socket-testers/7190885/

Even better is this little device available in Maylasia, http://malaysia.rs-online.com/web/p/mains-socket-testers/7047747/

Not sure why the one in Maylasia is not available in Thailand

[Crossy]

Agreed ^^^ with those little testers. BUT, L and N are transposed in Thai outlets compared with the UK so you'll need to make up an adaptor lead.

The Aussie device I linked to earlier also incorporates an RCD test but will also need an adaptor to switch L & N.

EDIT This one http://www.test-equipment.com.au/socket-testers/socket-outlet-tester-with-rcd-earth-leakage-test

There are traily extension leads available here that incorporate the test lights, one of those would be a good addition to any household.

PEA DID inspect our installation before they would give us permanent power, but it was a quick visual and confirmation of our incoming breaker rating, the only insulation and polarity tests done were done by me.

[Forkinhades]

Thanks doglover. yes I am afraid a couple of others seem to gone off down the anorak route (not that I am ungrateful for their help but what they are talking about now on my original post is way above my head). Just one observation and question on what you say: Observation - I am not unhappy with the main test But the original post was about it not working with a switch on the RCBO in the on position This has now been resolved by crossy who after reading the manual says the 'ON' means bypass the RCBO!!! With the RCBO switch in the off position the test button trips the main (switch no 1 in my pic in a previous post)BUT not the RCBO So now I am just trying to understand how to test the RCBO part. Clearly, my test as reported in a previous post has generated a lot of - well I can't think of an appropriate word but it sure has generated a lot of it. So here is a simple question I have lots of twin sockets so If I plug in a 15watt lamp with a modern energy saving bulb and a two pin plug into one half of the socket and If I wire the three pin plug I used before N - E (ie twisting the neutral and earth (black and red) together and taping and plug this into the other half of the twin socket AFTER the lamp is plugged in. Is that a satisfactory process

I will offer one final suggestion.

Get yourself a 3 pin extension lead, that does not have any indicators on and clearly mark on it TEST LEAD/ DO NOT USE. You could actually make one up yourself from scratch. At the plug end change the connections so that neutral is in the earth terminal, and earth in the neutral. Please note this is NOT a short! Then you can plug it in., everything will be fine. Once you are happy, you can plug anything into the lead, and the RCBO should trip.

I along with crossy am still concerned why the main switch is opening, when you push the test button.

[Crossy]

That will work Forky, safe too If the lead has a switch better yet.

[doglover]

^{Personally, I would go with lamp between L-E and that's it. As the cord end with N-E hard wired connection could still end up being a short if a receptacle has reversed polarity, even though in Negita43's case it is there will not be if his receptacle tester is functioning properly. It would be easier Negita43 if you forget about having to hardwire any terminals together. You need only the lamp tester that Crossy told you how to build.}

^{You must also check a circuit with the lamp tester from each consumer unit (CU or DB for distribution board - same thing). If the communication was correct between you and your electrician and the feed for your 2nd CU has been spliced from the mains prior to it entering the 1st CU that means the 2nd CU has no RCD protection, as bankruatsteve mentioned. When you perform the lamp test L-E on a circuit from your 2nd CU and it trips the RCBO or main CB (with the RCD activated (switched to the off position in your case - bizarre) then there is a miscommunication between you and your electrician. It could be that he has fed the 2nd CU's main breaker from the 1st CU's RCBO? Could it be leakage current will trip the main CB if fed from the 1st CU and will trip the RCBO if the circuit is fed from the 2nd CU?}

^{Not sure why you would have a main CB and then the main RCBO for a reason other than to offer the 2nd CU RCD protection. But I am only a Canadian and we only have an RCD (we call it a GFCI) on the receptacle in the bathroom. So my RCD knowledge is lacking. I know in the CU in my house (yeah ok, my wifes' house) there is only the main RCBO and no main CB. Let us know what happens with lamp test with 1 circuit from each CU.}

[Forkinhades]

^ Not so even with reverse polarity, that comment does show your inexperience and indeed lack of knowledge sorry.

Another point to add is that the Neutral is IN fact a live conductor, and by creating a fault on the N-E side determines that the RCD is in fact doing what it is supposed to, ie measuring an imbalance of current that flows over the live conductors, and indeed has done a full cycle.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Forkinhades

[Forkinhades]

@doglover sorry to be abrupt, but I am just trying now to put this thread to bed.

If myself and crossy have agreed on something that must be concrete right?

Anyways ALL people following this thread will HAVE learned something thats for sure.

so if we can put this to bed I would be very happy, as I need to go spot some trains!!!!

[doglover]

@doglover sorry to be abrupt, but I am just trying now to put this thread to bed.

If myself and crossy have agreed on something that must be concrete right?

Anyways ALL people following this thread will HAVE learned something thats for sure.

so if we can put this to bed I would be very happy, as I need to go spot some trains!!!!

Certainly not. As the purpose is to answer the OP's inquiry not determine whom is supreme ruler of electrical knowledge. And certainly no need to be sorry as I'm always happy to learn something. But the way I see it.... reversed polarity in the receptacle, RCD not functioning properly and a DIY'er not inserting the gadget quickly enough could result in fireworks with a N-E hardwired gizmo. But I have never been one to assert any concrete electrical knowledge.

I would think this thread would not be put to bed until the OP is resting assured that his electrical installation is sound.

[Forkinhades]

@post 99

If the receptacle had reverse polrity as well, then in fact you have just recreated a 'perfect' circuit, and not a short

[Crossy]

OK gentlemen, let's put it this way.

A load L-E will trip the RCD (use a lamp with a switch, it will not explode).

A load N-E will also often trip the RCD (use another lamp with a switch, it will have a low enough resistance when cold to behave as a short, and, should there be volts which should not be there, will light up). A load elsewhere on the circuit will help the RCD to trip in this configuration.

Nobody dies, nothing goes bang, RCD thoroughly tested.

QED

[bankruatsteve]

RCD is thoroughly tested with the TEST switch. END.

[Crossy]

RCD is thoroughly tested with the TEST switch. END.

Normally I would agree, but in this case there is some doubt about the action of the test switch (it seems to open the main breaker not the RCD), which is where this whole debate started, i.e. an alternative means to check the RCD is functional.

[bankruatsteve]

OK - just for discussion sake... the OP's configuration is (I assume) not one which any of us has experience. (?) It seems to me that the RCD part of the "RCBO" is separated physically but connected nevertheless. If the test button trips the breaker, then why do you think that might be a problem? Or, perhaps you are on to a sinister scheme by this mfg to provide false positive test? What could be the possible alternatives? Or, maybe not a good discussion. Whatever.

[Forkinhades]

OK gentlemen, let's put it this way.

A load L-E will trip the RCD (use a lamp with a switch, it will not explode).

A load N-E will also often trip the RCD (use another lamp with a switch, it will have a low enough resistance when cold to behave as a short, and, should there be volts which should not be there, will light up). A load elsewhere on the circuit will help the RCD to trip in this configuration.

Nobody dies, nothing goes bang, RCD thoroughly tested.

QED

Sorry Crossy I am stuggling with this, as if the fault was created as I suggested, (swap N with E) , you have in fact just created a L-E connection in the lamp ( I advise of a non lamp load). So an N-E reversal WILL trip the RCD, regardless if the lamp load is hot or not.

Also I would not suggest that RCD has NOT been thoroughly tested. It only provides an indication! You will not generate times @ 0 ,180 degrees, and @ 1/2,1, 5 x trip currents. As required.

[Forkinhades]

^ would also like to comment that whilst candescent lamps are still available in abundance here in LOS (which are now actually outlawed in the UK), I would use a non lamp load.

Crossy was advising 'low energy' lamps

Edited April 10, 2013 by Forkinhades

[Forkinhades]

If you want your electrics tested correctly and in safe manner, and a certificate issued, you really should be looking at getting it done professionally. Could actually reduce insurance costs as well.

In regards to the OP, It would take no more than a day to get this done with the right equipment. So you need to be asking the questions of how much a thai engineer will charge for that.

In the UK there are still 30 deaths a year! and over 8000 fires, so god only knows the true figures here in Thailand.

People need to get away from the mindset, hey it works!

You do not want to be rectifying faults after a serious incident.

Up to you

[Crossy]

I really, really don't want to get into an argument Forky, because you are 100% correct regarding testing.

BUT I have never come across a Thai jobbing sparks who has anything more than a neon screwdriver in his test equipment repertoire. The chaps on the big projects are a different breed and do have the kit, but would not dirty themselves for the rates attracted by house bashing.

So, we are back to the original issue. Sparks doesn't know what he's doing and doesn't have the test kit. Homeowner knows little (but probably more then sparks) can't justify buying the kit (other than a DMM) but still needs some testing. What to do?

A pragmatic approach is necessary, any testing performed, be it using light bulbs, cross connected loads or linked out plugs surely has to be better than no testing whatever does it not?

I hate the use of this phrase, but 'we're not in Kansas any more Toto'.

Let's put this one to bed and agree to disagree

[Forkinhades]

Crossy we have in fact agreed! Just trying to get full tranparency.

zzzzzzzzzzzz

[Forkinhades]

OK gentlemen, let's put it this way.

A load L-E will trip the RCD (use a lamp with a switch, it will not explode).

A load N-E will also often trip the RCD (use another lamp with a switch, it will have a low enough resistance when cold to behave as a short, and, should there be volts which should not be there, will light up). A load elsewhere on the circuit will help the RCD to trip in this configuration.

Nobody dies, nothing goes bang, RCD thoroughly tested.

QED

Sorry Crossy I am stuggling with this, as if the fault was created as I suggested, (swap N with E) , you have in fact just created a L-E connection in the lamp ( I advise of a non lamp load). So an N-E reversal WILL trip the RCD, regardless if the lamp load is hot or not.

Also I would not suggest that RCD has NOT been thoroughly tested. It only provides an indication! You will not generate times @ 0 ,180 degrees, and @ 1/2,1, 5 x trip currents. As required.

Should read 'I would suggest that the RCD has NOT been thoroughly tested.

[Forkinhades]

Full transparancy :

A load across N-E will need an additional load to trip the RCD

Reversed N-E connections will trip the RCD with a single load connected.

Last point to consider

I have tested many RCDs in the UK, and some do NOT operate when the test button is pressed, but operate fine when tested with the right equipment.

I have also tested RCDs that do open with the test switch pressed, but fail when tested with the right equipment.

Hope the OP has not electrocuted himself, as he has gone very quiet.

[Negita43]

Sorry everybody I have been reading all the posts but for the last 3 days I have been moving my stuff from the rented house opposite into my new 85% completed HOUSE (at last) well 85% inside at least - 1 working shower (out of 3) 1 air conditioned bedroom (out of 2) and a functioning kitchen. So forky I have not been electrocuted (yet) but I have been CHARGING around like like a madman installing showers (don't worry not electric) sinks, toilets, gas hobs, kitchen cabinets and my LAN (now I do know about IT). And to cap it all my 12 year old mongrel dog (who I imported from Spain 18 months ago) has suffered kidney failure and I have had to take her to the vet every morning and collect her every evening ((70km round trip) for treatment and monitoring.

So thanks everybody for your help. This OP, layman, plonker, or whatever, is very very appreciative and as I said before come to the house warming and have a good laugh!!

[Forkinhades]

^ nice good job